OOTS #887 - The Discussion Thread

[SteveMB]

It does look like padding, at a time when the book i overlong. It does confirm that this is a delusion, and it's not bad of itself, but as said, it doesn't seem to advance the plot.

It emphasizes just how compelling the illusion is, and implies that they might be stuck for some time,

[notaro]

I am worried that now we have seen the happy ending, maybe even Elan's happy ending, that these events will not come to pass in reality. Does this fantasy happy ending hint at a real tragic ending?

[Roland Itiative]

It emphasizes just how compelling the illusion is, and implies that they might be stuck for some time,

I don't see any implication that the illusion is taking a lot of real time. It may be, or it may not be. Dreams often have apparently long durations, while being quite short in real time, and this is pretty much a forced dream.

[Vreejack]

Do they get XP for this?

Actually, this would be such an incredible mind-f___ to pull on a group. It actually makes me want to run a campaign again for the first time in decades.

[DJ Yung Crunk]

As much as I enjoy a comic that steps outside its artistic constraints, I'm going to be perfectly and brutally honest here. I'm not really reading OotS for the art. So I'll just say there was a mild hint of exasperation in my grunt upon reading the new comic, because it feels like the story was put on hold for it.

Good effort, though.

Do they get XP for this?

Actually, this would be such an incredible mind-f___ to pull on a group. It actually makes me want to run a campaign again for the first time in decades.

Make sure you have your affairs in order, your players will kill you.

[Marelt Ekiran]

I'm also going to argue for the side that this entire thing is Elan's fantasy. That would resolve the "Belkar is dead" inconsistency that arises from the assumption that this whole thing is a shared consciousness. Besides, there are a few things that are off:

Roy waving his father goodbye as he departs as an angel... Roy made it very clear that he is only completing the quest for the good of the world and quite frankly thinks that his father deserves no more than to linger at Heaven's gates forever for the blatant selfishness with which he treats this whole thing. Generally speaking, his relationship with Julia is better, so it doesn't really make sense to have his feeling smugly superior over her while being all cozy with his father. Elan, on the other hand, has never met Roy's father and probably doesn't know much about their animosity. However, he has met Roy's sister and probably seen some of the sibling rivalry, which he understands better himself.

Haley made it very clear that she has broken with the thieves' guild for good and openly referred to everyone in there as total *******s. Even if it involved Bozzok eating humble pie, it is very unlikely that her happy ending would involve reconciling with them. However, when Haley told Elan about her life and recent adventure there, she probably only mentioned Bozzok as the major villain and left it at that. With that kept in mind, that whole panel makes much more sense.

While Belkar is definitely changing, I refuse to buy that he has changed enough as to wish himself dead because of mere survivor's guilt. As such, I highly doubt that his ending would involve him dying. However, from Elan's point of view, Belkar cannot consistently live and keep on murdering and have the whole thing be a happy ending and even with Elan's idealism, it's probably too late for him to redeem. As far as he is concerned, a heroic death in the final battle is the best thing that Belkar as a character can hope for. At least, that way, he will be remembered for something better than mindless evil.

All the bits are consistent with what other characters would reasonably have told Elan and the information that Elan has access to. If Vaarsuvius were included in this whole thing, her happy ending would most definitely involve reconciliation with her family, which since she didn't tell Elan about any of these events, they are excluded and Vaarsuvius doesn't get much development because Elan knows little. Likewise, if this were Roy's dream, then Durkon would in all likelihood be returning home, since Roy knows about Durkon's past. However, Elan joined the team later and probably never heard that story. As such, the only thing he can think of for Durkon is being alive and having a beer.

[sam79]

This strip is made of awesome, with a side of win. I love every single panel, but highlights must include Roy and Julia's reactions to the massive statue of Sir Greenhilt, and Elan standing at the door of Haley's Room O' Gold.

I've not read any of the preceeding comment pages, but I imagine (with the title of the strip especially) that there is speculation as to whether this counts as the fulfilment of Elan's prophesy. My view would be no. No more than Belkar's death in a dream sequence fulfils his prophesy.

On the speculation as to whether 886 was just Roy's vision, or a vision shared by everyone; well, it seems that the scales are tipped in favour of 'shared vision'. This could be Roy imagining his preferred outcome for everyone, but I think that everyone is seeing the same thing.

On a second reading, I was pleased to see (in a very small panel) the MitD and O-Chul together again, but I would have liked to see V reconciling with her partner and kids.

And as to how much of this will happen for realsies...wow, that's a sad thought.

[RNGgod]

I'm intrigued by the way that they don't appear to kill Redcloak. He's tied up in panel 2, as well. What happens to him? Could he possibly be the one standing behind O-Chul?

Also, this confirms that the Order, or at least one member of the Order, has been made aware that the MITD could potentially defect.

[Adeptus]

Awesome happy ending. The wake-up will be brutal.

I'm intrigued by the way that they don't appear to
Also, this confirms that the Order, or at least one member of the Order, has been made aware that the MITD could potentially defect.

I think the epic illusion magic and the nature of the comic makes it possible for there to be revelations in the illusion, unknown to any of the dreamers.

Case in point: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0864.html

[Poppy Appletree]

Uh oh. Did Elan just get his happy ending?

I am now dangerously afraid that Elan will die.

[RNGgod]

Awesome happy ending. The wake-up will be brutal.

I think the epic illusion magic and the nature of the comic makes it possible for there to be revelations in the illusion, unknown to any of the dreamers.

Case in point: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0864.html

Fair enough. I don't mean that Redcloak's fate is actually relevant, just that it's interesting if they don't kill him.

[oppyu]

I just had a horrifying thought that this illusion thing is going to turn into that one level from Dragon Age: Origins, where you spend hours trapped in a dreary not-the-real-world hellhole without making any substantial progress as far as plot goes.

Giant, I love your work, but if this turns into 50-100 strips of navigating Roy's twisted Belkar-killing fantasies, then I may love your work slightly less. Like, from a 9.5/10 to a 8.5/10.

[Gift Jeraff]

Elan has never even seen Jirix, Thanh, Tsukiko, Niu, the other resistance leaders, Eugene, Bozzok, Hank, or Julia, so this is definitely a shared illusion of some sort.

[Kish]

Things that are not accurate paraphrases of the Oracle's prophecy for Elan:
2) You will have a happy moment at some point during this story.

Egads people.

[Taffimai]

Today's comic fills me with sadness.

[SteveMB]

Hm, you're right!

O'Chul definitely seems to be holding something, and it could very well be 's hand. Which would imply that he has a hand, and that it would be somewhat yellowish.

More fuel for the fires of speculation, I guess.

Of course, nobody there knows what the MitD looks like, so if so it's pure speculation filling in a detail of the illusion.

[JSSheridan]

Thanks Giant!

[Gamall]

It does look like padding, at a time when the book i overlong. It does confirm that this is a delusion, and it's not bad of itself, but as said, it doesn't seem to advance the plot.

Not every single strip has to "advance" the plot. This is not a "gag a day" comic, and hasn't been from the very first arc onward; it's meant to be read in one go.

I for one thought that strip was brilliant. So there.

[SteveMB]

Also, this confirms that the Order, or at least one member of the Order, has been made aware that the MITD could potentially defect.

Well, they would have heard from O-Chul about making friends with the MitD, so it's a known fact extrapolated into the illusion (like Redcloak's missing eye / eyepatch).

[The Pilgrim]

I love how Roy totally doesn't gives a crap about Belkar's demise. Feeling shared by V. Also, Durkon shows up with Malack alive, implying that Belkar was lying when he said that Durkon was vampirized.

It's lovely also how they think Thahn, Eyepatch Girl, Samuray Guy and Tsukiko are still alive.

And, of course, it's lovely how they think Redcloak is mostly harmless and will surrender without a fight. Like if he hadn't his own agenda and all. The OOTS have no idea still about what's the real plan out there.

Interesting how there is no resolution to V's soul selling. Of course, since it's Roy's illusion, and he doesn't knows about V's deal.

What doesn't hang well there is Tarquin. If it's Roy's illusion, Tarquin and Nale should be slain. If it was Elan's - Tarquin would remarry his mother. But in this illusion it's ok with Nale making amedments with Elan (possibly forced by his father). Weird.

Also, since Belkar dies and stays dead, I suppose it can't be an illusion shared by all four standing members of the OOTS - as Belkar would never think he dying is a happy ending.

[Ellye]

Here's a cheerful thought:

The illusion seems to be playing out the fantasies of the combined group. We see things that clearly correspond to Roy's, Elan's, and Haley's "happy ending." They even show Durkon coming back... so, in this fantasy, it would be entirely consistent for Belkar to be resurrected. He's not.

What if part of that is Belkar's fantasy? Maybe he's actually feeling guilty for Durkon's death, to the extent that he wishes he were dead himself?

I'm get this feeling too...
The panels with dead Belkar and with Durkon coming back might be as much Belkar's fantasies as they are Roy's.

[theinsulabot]

I probably should have liked the strip more then I did. Eh.

Anyway, put me down for shared hallucination that each added a bit into, rather then something created by elan or Roy alone, because if its one person imagining happy endings for the others, the complete lack of material for V doesn't hold up. Either elan or Roy probably don't know what V wants right now, admittedly, but they almost certainly think they could make a guess about it, and the lack of a panel with v in a giant library or becoming a god of magic or something heavily implies nobody is creating happy endings for other people.

[Mido]

The suspense is killing me. That, and those panels just make me sad because I know it's an illusion.

[Obscure Blade]

I don't want to quote the whole passage at you because it's kind of lengthy and it's what people pay for when they get the compilations, but suffice it to say I highly doubt the author was trying to pull some kind of literal-wording-gotcha in the commentary that underlined the rationale behind putting reader's fears to rest with Elan's prophecy.

On the other hand, I wouldn't be at all surprised if Elan decides that this was his happy ending (and is surprised when he gets a real one in the epilogue). A prophecy being fulfilled according to its literal wording in an ironic way is exactly the sort of plot twist that fulfills his Bardic view of how the world works.

For example: Roy already met his father in the afterlife. Why would Roy suddenly think his father has wings and sits on a single cloud? Roy's been there and knows how his father and the afterlife looks like, Elan doesn't.
(EDIT: Nevermind, Roy saw the coexistent demiplane his father was waiting in because of the Blood Oath.
EDIT2:No, I was right in some way, Roy has been in the actual afterlife and saw how people live there without wings.)

Roy's memory of the afterlife is quite vague however; check the 4th panel.

[nephilia]

So Belker dies in Elan's happy ending? I wonder if we'll get to see Haley and Belker's illusions as well.

This is not Elan's happy ending imho.
If it were there should be at least one panel where he and roy are eating ice cream together or doing something that involve the brotherhood relashionship he desire so much.

[ManuelSacha]

First: Roy. He's smugly triumphant here.
Second: Roy. Durkon is back and Belkar is dead.
Third: Roy. Again, he's the main participant.
Fourth: Elan. One big semi-happy family.
Fifth: Haley. Tsukiko going down, Resistance winning, Thanh.
Sixth: Roy. Reconciled with dad.
Seventh: Roy. Rejoicing over Belkar's demise.
Eighth: Haley. Ian is approving, Bozzok is defeated.
Ninth: Roy. Giant statue of him (man, he really does crave fame and recognition, doesn't he??), Julia ticked off.
Tenth: Uncertain.
Eleventh: Elan. The hopeless romantic.
Twelfth: Haley. Gold, gold, gold!!!!
Thirteenth: Elan. Who else with puppets?
Fourteenth: Roy. Durkon's alive and they're partying.
Fifteenth: Elan. Woooooo! I'm riding a dinosaur!!!
Sixteenth: Haley? Involves Azure City or Sapphire Guard in some way.
Seventeenth: Who the heck???? MitD and O-Chul? What's going on here???
Eighteenth: Elan. Elan with a lollipop.
Nineteenth on: Indistinguishable. I think V is in #19, but beyond that it's too small to see. The others are probably just blank.

Who is imagining the MitD hanging around with O-Chul????

First: Everyone. It's the continuation of the previous comic, and it's the capture of two feared enemies.

Third: Everyone. Again, defeating Xykon and Team Evil was their common purpose and they're all happy they did it in dreamland.

Seventh: Elan. Of course! It's the only one who seems to care (besides the always proper Durkon, who isn't really there). Haley is kinda just "sad because her bf his sad". The others just don't care enough. Shame on you for thinking Roy might rejoice at Belkar's (and Scruffy's) death. Besides, the dramatic scene in which we mourn the loss of our friends is a required passage in the "action movie ending" Elan envisions for his story.

Tenth: Everyone. Again very simple. Closing the Gate is the Order's common purpose just as much as defeating Team Evil.

Eleventh: Everyone. Yes, of course Elan is the romantic guy, and of course this fits into the ideal "action movie ending" Elan would crave for, but I'm pretty sure that Haley and Roy are looking forward to this, too.

Seventeenth: Haley? Is Elan standing behind O-Chul? I can't tell. Anyway, to be completely honest, this panel baffles me, because, as far as I know, nobody in the Order knows about the odd friendship between O-Chul and MitD. And, IIRC, only Haley and Belkar even ever saw the latter. Will the next page show that O-Chul is trapped in there with them, as well? Will that lead to O-Chul joining the Order? Am I the one daydreaming now?

I left Belkar out on purpose, because, as others pointed out, it's likely he feels guilty and simply just thinks he should be dead by now (which makes panel seven all the more sad).

PS: "Will this story have a happy ending?" - "Yes. For you, at least."

The last part of the Oracle's prophecy takes a completely new meaning, now:
Before it was: "You will live happily ever after, but some will be lost along the way (Durkon, Belkar, the Resistance, etc...)."
Now it's: "You'll see a happy ending, but only from your magically confused point of view."

[One Skunk Todd]

It seems odd to me that any of them would imagine Malack as anything other than an evil opponent who needs to be defeated.

[SteveMB]

I don't want to quote the whole passage at you because it's kind of lengthy and it's what people pay for when they get the compilations, but suffice it to say I highly doubt the author was trying to pull some kind of literal-wording-gotcha in the commentary that underlined the rationale behind putting reader's fears to rest with Elan's prophecy.

I don't think it is a prophecy twist, but it occurs to me that Elan might think it was a prophecy twist -- he's not exactly a deep thinker, but that's the sort of story element that would easily occur to a bard.

[Thia]

It seems odd to me that any of them would imagine Malack as anything other than an evil opponent who needs to be defeated.

Their only evidence that he's a vampire is Belkar's word, and it's already been established that the illusion says Belkar was lying.

Considering that, it's basically Durkon's word against Belkar's, and I'm pretty sure none of the Order would believe Belkar over Durkon.

[Ellye]

Considering that, it's basically Durkon's word against Belkar's, and I'm pretty sure none of the Order would believe Belkar over Durkon.

V probably would, but V is not there anyway.