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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Orc in the Playground
     
    OrcBarbarianGuy

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    Question What classes are 'spellcasting classes'?

    I was going to ask this in the Simple Q&A, but I don't think it is that simple. It looks to me as if a spellcasting class is one with a spell-list and defined spells per day. A class that improves or advances another class is not a spellcasting class.

    Thus wizard is a spellcasting class, but Loremaster is not. Ur-Priest is a spellcasting class, but Mystic Theurge is not. For if Mystic Theurge were a spellcasting class, then one could advance it with a level of Loremaster.

    Quote Originally Posted by SRD
    When a new loremaster level is gained, the character gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if she had also gained a level in a spellcasting class she belonged to before she added the prestige class. She does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. This essentially means that she adds the level of loremaster to the level of some other spellcasting class the character has, then determines spells per day, spells known, and caster level accordingly.
    In other words, a wiz3/clr3/MT1 could take a level of Loremaster, choose MT as the class advanced, and thereby advance both his wizard and cleric levels in addition to getting more skill ranks and a Loremaster secret.

    Maybe that doesn't seem ridiculous. But consider if, for the sake of argument, one were to consider a class like Mystic Theurge to be a spellcasting class, and then ask whether it is arcane or divine. Is it both or neither? Suppose it depends on the kind of spellcasting advanced. Then if Mystic Theurge were a spellcasting class because it advanced spellcasting, it would have to be both arcane and divine, since it advances both arcane and divine spellcasting. Then in a build where Loremaster advances MT, the Loremaster class would also be both arcane and divine, since Loremaster would inherit its type(s) from the spellcasting class it advances, which in this case is MT. But if Loremaster were both arcane and divine it could be advanced by either half of MT- divine spellcasting, say. A loop would result that would greatly increase the level of wizard spellcasting, since wizard spellcasting increases by +1 every cycle. This is surely ridiculous. And thus neither Loremaster nor Mystic Theurge would be spellcasting classes.

    If Mystic Theurge is not a spellcasting class, then the caster level of an Ur-Priest is very low. A wiz10/UP2/MT 8 has a caster level of only 7.

    To determine the caster level of an ur-priest, add the characterís ur-priest levels to one-half of his levels in other spellcasting classes. (Any levels gained in the cleric class by an ex-cleric donít count.)
    The spells per day and spells known would be as a wiz18/UP10, but the rules for Ur-Priest look strictly at class levels, and wouldn't count MT levels at all. 2 Ur-Priest levels plus half the wizard levels is only 7. I am not sure of this, or I would reply to Q1617 of the Simple Q&A thread.

    TL;DR: If Loremaster and Mystic Theurge were spellcasting classes they could, by their wording, advance each other. But if they are not, then Ur-Priest does not work well with these classes.

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    SaintRidley's Avatar

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    Default Re: What classes are 'spellcasting classes'?

    Mystic Theurge does not have a spells/day table and is therefore not a spellcasting class. Loremaster does not advance Mystic Theurge.

    As for Ur-Priest, Mystic Theurge advances caster level and casting of the Ur-Priest, leaving a Wiz 10/Ur-Priest 2/ MT 8 with an Ur-Priest caster level of 19.
    Last edited by SaintRidley; 2013-05-13 at 02:02 PM.
    Linguist and Invoker of Orcus of the Rudisplorker's Guild
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    No author should have to take the time to say, "This little girl ISN'T evil, folks!" in order for the reader to understand that. It should be assumed that no first graders are irredeemably Evil unless the text tells you they are.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: What classes are 'spellcasting classes'?

    Mystic Theurge is a perfectly fine spellcasting class.
    The thing is, it doesn't gain any new spells or spell slots per level, instead it has the ability "gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if she had also gained a level in previous classes".
    So if you chose to use your Loremaster ability on MT, it won't advance that ability of Mystic Theurge, as "she does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained", wasting it.
    Last edited by SinsI; 2013-05-13 at 01:33 PM.

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    Orc in the Playground
     
    OrcBarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: What classes are 'spellcasting classes'?

    Quote Originally Posted by SaintRidley View Post
    As for Ur-Priest, Mystic Theurge advances caster level and casting of the Ur-Priest, leaving a Wiz 10/Ur-Priest 2/ MT 8 with an Ur-Priest caster level of 15.
    A Wiz 10/Ur-Priest 2/ MT 8 has spells per day and spells known of a Wiz 18/Ur-Priest 10, as per the rules for MT

    Quote Originally Posted by SRD
    When a new mystic theurge level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in any one arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before he added the prestige class and any one divine spellcasting class he belonged to previouslyÖ This essentially means that he adds the level of mystic theurge to the level of whatever other arcane spellcasting class and divine spellcasting class the character has, then determines spells per day and caster level accordingly.
    The general rule is that caster level = class level. Adding +1 level spellcasting advancement normally also increases caster level by +1. However Ur-Priest has special rules for determining caster level. These overwrite the general rules, since specific trumps general. The Ur-Priest's rules look-up the Ur-Priest's class level, which is 2, and add half the other spellcasting levels, which in this case is half of 10, for a grand total of 7.

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    Ettin in the Playground
     
    SaintRidley's Avatar

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    Default Re: What classes are 'spellcasting classes'?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheiromancer View Post
    A Wiz 10/Ur-Priest 2/ MT 8 has spells per day and spells known of a Wiz 18/Ur-Priest 10, as per the rules for MT
    Yes. And I was addressing the caster level, not the equivalent casting progression.


    The general rule is that caster level = class level. Adding +1 level spellcasting advancement normally also increases caster level by +1. However Ur-Priest has special rules for determining caster level. These overwrite the general rules, since specific trumps general. The Ur-Priest's rules look-up the Ur-Priest's class level, which is 2, and add half the other spellcasting levels, which in this case is half of 10, for a grand total of 7.
    Since MT is advancing Ur-Priest casting, both the spells per day and the caster level are advanced as if by a level of Ur-Priest.

    I did make a mistake with my calculation of caster level, but it wasn't that I put too much caster level.

    A Wiz 10/Ur-Priest 2/MT 8 has the following caster level:

    Wizard caster level 18 (Wiz 10 + MT 8 applied to Wiz)
    Ur-Priest caster level 19 (Wiz 9 (half of Wizard caster level) + 10 Ur-Priest (from Ur-Priest 2 and MT 8 applied to Ur-Priest)).

    Mystic Theurge adds directly to the classes it's applied to. It does not have its own caster level, but it also doesn't count as null. You simply add MT levels to each side and calculate from there.

    An Ur-Priest 2/Full Spellcasting Advancing Class 8 is treated as an Ur-Priest 10 for the Ur-Priest level portion of its caster level. There's no specific trumping general here, because the specific and the general don't meet, because this isn't specification of that particular general.
    Last edited by SaintRidley; 2013-05-13 at 02:03 PM.
    Linguist and Invoker of Orcus of the Rudisplorker's Guild
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    Fantasy literature is ONLY worthwhile for what it can tell us about the real world; everything else is petty escapism.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    No author should have to take the time to say, "This little girl ISN'T evil, folks!" in order for the reader to understand that. It should be assumed that no first graders are irredeemably Evil unless the text tells you they are.

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    Orc in the Playground
     
    OrcBarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: What classes are 'spellcasting classes'?

    I think I get it now: Increment the spellcasting classes by MT for everything to do with spellcasting, then apply the Ur-Priestís caster level rule using the incremented class levels. I guess the relevant rule is from the text of Mystic Theurge:
    Quote Originally Posted by SRD
    Öhe adds the level of mystic theurge to the level of whatever other arcane spellcasting class and divine spellcasting class the character has, then determines spells per day and caster level accordingly.
    The calculation involved in determining an ur-priestís caster level is covered by the bolded text, and so in the example of a Wiz 10/Ur-Priest 2/MT 8 we do not use the Wizard class level (which is 10), but instead the Wizard class level after the level of the Mystic Theurge has been added to it. Which is 18. Similarly we donít use the class level of the Ur-Priest (which is 2), but the level after MT has been added, namely 10. The Ur-Priest calculation is according to the following rule to get (2 + 8) + Ĺ * (10 + 8) = 19

    Quote Originally Posted by CD
    To determine the caster level of an ur-priest, add the characterís ur-priest levels to one-half of his levels in other spellcasting classes. (Any levels gained in the cleric class by an ex-cleric donít count.)
    I wonder if anyone has a different argument to bring to bear on this question?

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    Default Re: What classes are 'spellcasting classes'?

    Something I always thought was really odd about the way MT is phrased: if you go by strict RAW without any interpretation, you can't increase your spells known (for spont casters)/spells automatically added to your spellbook (for wizards and other prepared arcane casters). Spells available (for divine classes) seems to be simply tied to whether you have spells per day available for that level in that class, so there's no problem with them. And I suppose forcing prepped arcane casters to shell out cash to improve their spellbook could be used as a balancing tool. But spont casters? Improving their spells per day but not their spells known is ... kinda pointless, since all it does is open up slots for metamagic.
    I'm currently writing a story, titled "Zenith: Another World Saga."

    It's a fantasy/adventure story. Here's the summary:

    When I opened my eyes, I was in a fantasy world. I quickly discovered that it functioned off of game-like rules (levels, EXP, skills, and so on). Taking the name Zenith, I decided to make the best of my new world and live as an adventurer aiming for the top together with my new best friend Rozenskye. And I might be functionally immortal? An Isekai-style story.

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