OOTS #888 - The Discussion Thread

[Unkillable_Cat]

I was in that camp that wasn't happy about another speedbump being thrown in the Order's way, and wasn't exactly thrilled about an illusion trapping them like this. I was halfway to bringing out the Monty Python "Get on with it!" bit here, until...

...until I read this strip. Now I see where this is going. We get insights into the characters that, from a narrative perspective, were next to impossible to attain otherwise.

We should be seeing more illusions, at least one Haley-specific and one Belkar-specific (where is Belkar in this one, anyway?) and possibly even a Mr. Scruffy-specific illusion. But now I'm thinking whom else we can throw into this scenario? How many here want to see a V-specific illusion? Or better yet, one from Linear Guild members or even Team Evil?

I'm not bothered about the pacing anymore, this is getting really good. While this could be wrapped up in about 5 more strips, this could go on for as long as 20 more strips, knowing how past OOTS plots have ended. ;)

However... notice that Belkar is absent from all the illusions except as a corpse? I'm guessing it's because HE believes he's dead now because of the first illusion. And the others are also buying into that. I think that's what will break this illusion: Belkar's state of being.

[zimmerwald1915]

Now, Vaarsuvius has just been through an incredibly emotional ordeal of his/her own; realising the unintended consequences of the Familicide spell. However, he/she now seems to have come to terms with it (at least to the point that he/she is no longer sobbing inconsolably on a dungeon floor). I wonder whether this makes V the perfect person to talk The Order through their traumatic experience, and perhaps give V the opportunity to come clean at the same time.

A couple of nitpicks before coming to the main point. The things V recognized as of strip 866 were the intended consequence of Familicide and the implications of that intention. What's more V has a death wish and is only refraining from killing herself so as to deny the Directors access to her soul - or so she believes.

Beyond that though, an emotionally damaged person is the person least qualified to help others through their own pain.

[Sir_Leorik]

That's the second strip in a row that both isn't real (third if you count 95% of #886) and is also not funny. I hope this boring waste of time doesn't drag on any longer.

You are correct that this strip is an illusion, but how can you say the last panel didn't make you laugh? Sabine and the Empress of Blood as Bridesmaids? (How does she fit into that church?) Kilkil as a best man? (Best Kobold?) Banjo and his girlfriend sitting next to Sir Francois, the paladin Elan used to squire for? Malack wearing a mitre? Elan not knowing the given name of his "Mommy"? How can you be so humorless?

[NihhusHuotAliro]

The way that I see it, this is a quintuple wedding; with Lord Tarquin marrying Jenny sais-quoi, Elan marrying Haley Starshine, Nale marrying Sabine, Roy Greenhilt marrying Celia, and Kilkil marrying the empress.

[SteveMB]

We should be seeing more illusions, at least one Haley-specific and one Belkar-specific (where is Belkar in this one, anyway?) and possibly even a Mr. Scruffy-specific illusion.

My guess is

Spoiler

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we'll see a few more illusions, with increasingly evident cracks in the fake reality (along the lines of Elan's mother not being referenced by name), until one of them (probably Roy or Haley) realizes what's happening.

[sihnfahl]

where is Belkar in this one, anyway?

If the current page is a continuation of the previous, dead.

[oddtail]

To those complaining this does not advance the main plot at all - you can't be certain of that. Part of telling a story is to show character's attitudes, dreams (usually figuratively, although in this case very literally) and the like. And I can think of a few interesting ways this sequence would lend colour to what happens next or lead to story/character developments. It's hard to predict what exactly will happen, but here's a few I kinda imagine might happen (not all of them, of course), off the top of my head:

Spoiler

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1) They wake up and it turns out Belkar has had his moment to shine and/or die when he was defending the party from an attack of some sort. Thus fulfilling Belkar's part of prophecy by killing him off, giving him an opportunity to be a badass solo - which he really enjoys, providing a twist answering complaints "why doesn't he wake up when he dies in the dream sequence" - maybe he wakes up AND dies defending the party, which would make him being dead in the dream sequence ironic.
2) They wake up, and the admittedly sad fact that this was all a ridiculous dream makes them go "screw that, we're going to get a happy ending that's even better than this", thus giving them resolve rather than breaking them, which would be badass and emphasise that they are heroic characters;
3) It does turn out, as someone speculated, that this is actually Taquin's dream. OK, that's not off the top of *my* head, but I really like this idea;
4) The dream sequence might be something they will not just automatically snap out of after being, say, slapped in the face, but they might actually need to overcome their wishful thinking in order to wake up. Which, given how many ridiculous things they are already accepting as plausible in their denial, is actually rather suspenseful - what do they need to see/realise to wake up? If fighting a big monster can be heroic and suspenseful, my personal belief is that fighting an elaborate illusion might be just as heroic and suspenseful. There have been entire stories built around the premise that waking up from a "dream" of some sort is the most heroic thing one could do - Matrix, to name one;

Anyway, there is no reason to assume this is a pointless sequence of strips. While I do not react with fanboyish glee to everything Rich writes, I don't go "WHAT A GREAT TWIST!" at every story development, I think Order of the Stick is an excellent story. OotS has shown that subplots that are only in a character's mind (like Haley getting over her speech impediment) can be resolved very well, so I have faith this will be another good part of the story.

Honestly, have some faith, as well as patience. I'd understand if someone said they were disappointed with the illusion thing AFTER it has been resolved, but this is obviously going somewhere.

[VestigeArcanist]

Definitely Elan's illusion. Banjo is in the front row, to the left.

[oppyu]

And now, about three hours after the strip is posted, my RSS reader finally acknowledges that there's a new strip. Is anyone else having this problem? If you're not having this problem, then what RSS reader are you using?

[gorocz]

Nah, if I remember correctly Word of Giant says the Oracle was referring to the end of the storyline.

Elan doesn't know that, though... When he wakes, he might think his story won't have any other happy ending than this one...

[SteveMB]

Look at the speech in frame #5:

Elan : But what if a bad guy burst in and try to stop the wedding?

Tarquin : Son, YOUR Order of the Stick is the most celebrated band of heroes in three generations.

That "your" sounds a lot suspicious to me!

Tarquin was the only one saying continuously that Elan was the party lead in the OOTS. Elan is not so egocentric to say that about himself and surely Roy wouldn't leave the honor to be the party lead to someone else.

Actually, that argument is a bit self-contradictory -- if real Tarquin treated Elan as if he were the leader of the group, it's not at all suspicious for illusory Tarquin to do the same thing.

Anyway, "your group" could be interpreted as "the group you belong to".

[Anarion]

The Empress of Blood totally makes this particular strip.

That said, wow this is a serous illusion. This does seem to be Elan's perspective, and he's certainly as naive as it gets. Even so, and even discounting the set of bridesmaids as a gag, this series of events strains incredulity. I feel like this illusion is going to collapse in on itself at some point.

[Sir_Leorik]

The way that I see it, this is a quintuple wedding; with Lord Tarquin marrying Jenny sais-quoi, Elan marrying Haley Starshine, Nale marrying Sabine, Roy Greenhilt marrying Celia, and Kilkil marrying the empress.

No, Elan, Nale, Roy and Kilkil are best men/Kobolds, while Haley, Sabine, Celia and the Empress are bridesmaids/monsters. Elan, Nale, Roy and Kilkil are all wearing matching tuxedos, while Haley, Sabine and Celia are wearing matching dresses; that is the custom at most weddings in the United States. (The Empress has squeezed into what may have been a matching dress, once upon a time...) Also note that the bouquet that "Mommy" is holding is a different color from the bouquets that Haley, Sabine, Celia and the Empress are holding.

[Ellye]

I'm really afraid that the Order will lash out in frustration, confusion and anger at whoever wakes them up from the illusion, if they don't each break out on their own.

And I'm afraid that this person will be Belkar. And it might be the last thing that he does.

[tbe878]

Guys . . . Elan's gonna bight it. I'm pretty sure the Giant could pull it off so that Durkon, who knows Elan's plan to change Tarquin and thus conclude basically the only unfinished business our bard has, reveals what Elan would have said. It's a long-shot and I've got a lot of ideas about how it would actually work out, but I feel like we're being set up for Elan getting stabbed in the first panel of the next strip. It wouldn't be a strategically sound move for Nale to go for Elan first, but my bard-senses are telling me that, narratively speaking, this is the next thing to happen.

Yay for speculation!

[GideonWells]

Anyone else getting worried for Elan here? Maybe I'm still paranoid by how close we got to Belkar's "breathing his last" and the apparent imminent fulfillment of Dorukan returning home posthumously.

Would Elan being killed in the middle of this illusion count as a happy ending for him?

[tbe878]

Elan doesn't know that, though... When he wakes, he might think his story won't have any other happy ending than this one...

That's a good point; the effect of the vision may just be that Elan becomes uncertain about his fate. I'm not certain that the prophecy played enough of a role in his thinking to justify the Giant going out of his way to dissuade him of it, though.

[Rakoa]

I'm probably not the first one to say this, but Malack as the priest killed me.

[Sir_Leorik]

Anyway, this runes seems the perfect defense: giving your enemy everything they wanted.

True, your enemy will live out a fantasy life where all their dreams come true... right up until you stab them in the sternum, or allow them to die of thirst!

[Sir_Leorik]

Guys . . . Elan's gonna bight it.

I'd be very worried for Elan, if I knew what that word meant!

[Forikroder]

Anyone else getting worried for Elan here? Maybe I'm still paranoid by how close we got to Belkar's "breathing his last" and the apparent imminent fulfillment of Dorukan returning home posthumously.

Would Elan being killed in the middle of this illusion count as a happy ending for him?

if you died knowing your friends are about to be killed, the love of your life is alone, your father is evil and your brother too, your mother is depressed and alone and you failed in your quest to save the world

would you consider that a happy ending?

[Morgath]

You will have to excuse any discussion I will have missed, as I do not read nor post to these forums regularly.

I haven't read any pros and cons to the ideas of this illusion or delusion effecting the whole party or each individual member, so if I've missed anything important others have said, please inform me.

My personal interpretation until other facts present themselves, is that each member of OOtS is each is viewing their own fantasy This individual fantasy may be influenced by their knowledge of others beliefs to make it compatible and believable in their fantasies, but the gestalt view in comic no 887 is a sum of the general fantasies of the whole rather than an individual narrative by each member. There are of course details that could point that way, but I think that that can be explained by the shared goals and common viewpoints that the party has. I would need additional evidence.

The Belkar thing is a telling point in any group narrative. How would he cope with being dead? And considering that in this shared narrative he would not be able (seemingly because of his past life status) to interact with the group, how would he deal with the change? The few people I have seen who have addressed this seem to think that he would be in some sort of chaotic evil afterlife, stabbing people for fun. Good point, and if Rich puts up such a comic I would not doubt even my doubting, because it's plausible, But it doesn't take into account the evidence regarding Belkar's death being just an illusion never mind it being a group one. Besides, it doesn't really take into account his change via old man to his present equilibrium. Would the New Belkar really want to be dead after all the work?

My personal belief is that the first fantasy was a Roy one only. The second was a group one, showing some snapshots of the whole. This third one is wholly Elans. And yes, I believe it constitutes a happy ending, if only for him.

This leaves the actual ending an open book, and while it might not in actuality a real happy ending for Elan, it fits the bill for the Oracle.

Thoughts?

[Xenrei]

Ha! Great comic, Giant! I love how Leeky Windstaff and Sir Francois got invited to the wedding. I fear for the safety of the Order however, I wonder what will happen when they snap out of it...

[GideonWells]

if you died knowing your friends are about to be killed, the love of your life is alone, your father is evil and your brother too, your mother is depressed and alone and you failed in your quest to save the world

would you consider that a happy ending?

That's thing. When is the "ending"? Elan wouldn't find out until he is in the after life and effectively out of the story. It isn't like the Oracle hasn't been known to twist things.

[Liliet]

Does he? *goes to check* Oh, right. Then I have two questions.
1) where he hell is Julio Scoundrel?!

Not showing up because he would die when the villains attack the wedding of course!

Oh, right. Elan still remembers the reason Julio Scroundrel didn`t want to ever see him again, and to him this is serious. Too bad )=

2) what exactly does Elan know about V`s love life and where from? As I recall, it was a surprise to everyone but Haley to learn that V was married in "No Cure for Paladin Blues" arc. And V didn`t share the details of vir "vacation" with anyone.

No idea, maybe V stumbled in and is apart of the hallucination now. This could be very telling. Or Is may just be a contribution from Haley.

If V is a part of the hallucination, then the next strips are going to be VERY interesting. BTW, would be a great way to reveal V`s misadventures of at least their consequences to the rest of the party: through a shared illusion.

If it`s Haley, then I guess V has confided in her more than I thought. Has she seen a portrait, heard a description or actually been to V`s home? (last part not likely: as I remember, V hasn`t been home for longer than Haley hasn`t been a part of a Thieves` Guild) I`d really love to learn more about their friendship.

[Komodo]

No speculation here, just wanting to say:

1) this is a beautiful strip, even though I find the purple filter rather annoying. Fankids, the empress, lizard in a mitre, Sabine in of all things a dress...all these are funny and excellent.
2) the presence of Sir What's-His-Face will only confuse those who haven't read the books yet (I will buy them...soon...)
3) I am curious to see just how this will connect back to the main plot. I love character studies and development, but I've always been a bit skeptical of the use of imagine spots to cover them. The giant hasn't let us down yet, though, so we'll see...
4) Before this is all said and done, I expect to see Imaginary Belkar rising again and ascending to imaginary godhood. That is all.

[St Fan]

Okay, I must say one thing: the Empress of Blood as a bridesmaid really cracked me up!

[Ikialev]

Character development and plot are not mutually exclusive elements of a story. Also we got to see the Empress of Blood as a bridesmaid. That is comedy gold!

Except this is literally non-development, since everything is a hugboxy illusion and we still can't even reach to conclusion on if it's collective or just Roy's. The visual joke, while kinda funny, is on the what, 4th page of this diversion? With such sparse update schedule, I just don't think it's a good course for the comic. I could of course be wrong and this will become really important, but for now I have no reasons to believe that.
Also, the previous page was a spiral which usually signifies the illusion ending, so this page just looks kind of hamfisted unless there's going to be a series of spirals. Which would mean another 10 pages of this.

Unless this is the ending. Rich, are you dying?

[MeanMrsMustard]

While we're on the subject of brilliant headgear, Elan's Mother has a tankard-shaped hair clip.

[Heksefatter]

The Empress of Blood looks awesome in this. Stylish. Classy.