un-digging myself (paladin and two assassins in the same group)

[Stake A Vamp]

so, here's how the funny story goes

so, i send a very dark-brotherhood-y recruitment notice to the two party rogues. i fully expected them to tell the party and hunt down the assassins. instead they take up the offer, kill some peasants, and get new armour from the guild (like i promised in the note). there is a paladin in the group. both the rogues are chaotic neutral, and i decided, (and warned them) that the next contract kill shift thier alignments to evil. the paladin uses his detect evil liberally, and will notice in short form.

What do i do to get out of this hole i dug for myself?

[Raineh Daze]

Sell PPV tickets to the inevitable battle.

[Stake A Vamp]

Sell PPV tickets to the inevitable battle.

well, that's a very solid plan B, any ideas to prevent the fight?

[JellyPooga]

Level of play? System?

- If 3.5 D&D and above about 5th-6th level, mid/low-op, then a small investment in alignment concealing magic (a UMD'd "wand of undetectable alignment" springs to mind) for the Rogues would stop them detecting as Evil. That's the "easy and boring" way.

- Unless the Rogues are particularly high level, then their rating on the Evil-o-meter, isn't going to be very high. They could probably Bluff it out with the Paladin; tell him he must be mistaken, it's a magic item they're carrying, it's not them, it's the guy over there, etc. If they've been adventuring with him for long enough, then they've got a plausible background of being not-Evil, such that a lie like that would be easy enough to pull off.

- Detect Evil requires three rounds of solid concentration to get a fix on the location of an Evil source. The Rogues could probably look out for the Paladin getting "that look" on his face (they're Rogues, after all, they should be able to recognise a "tell" as obvious as the ones a Paladin's going to be throwing around!). When they click that the Paladin's got his spidey-sense active, they can work together to create a distraction; play a prank, steal his sword, tease the Halfling, just something to take the Paladins' focus off of them.

- Don't give them another contract.

- Have another Paladin, of a different deity to the party Paladin, turn up heaven-bent on killing the two Rogues. Don't give the party Paladin a chance to negotiate/use his own Detect Evil and throw the "moral quandary" ball in his court; does he defend his companions from the possibly psychotic killer attacking his friends, or does he turn on his own and side with the stranger claiming to be working for the same extra-planar forces he does?

[Stake A Vamp]

Level of play? System?

- If 3.5 D&D and above about 5th-6th level, mid/low-op, then a small investment in alignment concealing magic (a UMD'd "wand of undetectable alignment" springs to mind) for the Rogues would stop them detecting as Evil. That's the "easy and boring" way.

- Unless the Rogues are particularly high level, then their rating on the Evil-o-meter, isn't going to be very high. They could probably Bluff it out with the Paladin; tell him he must be mistaken, it's a magic item they're carrying, it's not them, it's the guy over there, etc. If they've been adventuring with him for long enough, then they've got a plausible background of being not-Evil, such that a lie like that would be easy enough to pull off.

- Detect Evil requires three rounds of solid concentration to get a fix on the location of an Evil source. The Rogues could probably look out for the Paladin getting "that look" on his face (they're Rogues, after all, they should be able to recognise a "tell" as obvious as the ones a Paladin's going to be throwing around!). When they click that the Paladin's got his spidey-sense active, they can work together to create a distraction; play a prank, steal his sword, tease the Halfling, just something to take the Paladins' focus off of them.

- Don't give them another contract.

- Have another Paladin, of a different deity to the party Paladin, turn up heaven-bent on killing the two Rogues. Don't give the party Paladin a chance to negotiate/use his own Detect Evil and throw the "moral quandary" ball in his court; does he defend his companions from the possibly psychotic killer attacking his friends, or does he turn on his own and side with the stranger claiming to be working for the same extra-planar forces he does?

liking the "other paladin" idea. also, the group is level 3, 3.5 D&D

[JellyPooga]

Ok, so fairly low level, then. Rules out magical concealment for a little while then.

If the players of the Rogues really are set on taking the road they're going down, then you should really put the onus on them to facilitate hanging around with a Paladin (of all people!) without causing a conflict.

After all, they've been given their Out-of-Character warning and In-Character, they've got to know that contract killings are taking them down a path that isn't exactly the road upstairs.

If they're going to go off and be assassins, ask them why they're hanging around the rest of the party. What do they gain out of it? If the answer is not more than the effort they're putting into keeping the party (especially the Paladin) from taking them to the proper authorities (or worse), then ask if they'd like to retire those characters (perhaps to continue their exploits in a separate, darker, game) for ones that fit better into the rest of the party dynamic.

If they're not receptive, appeal to the Paladins' Player. Sure his character will detect the Rogues as being Evil, but they never did before. Is there yet a chance for redemption? If he thinks there might be, he could still adventure with them, constantly badgering at them to right there wrongful ways, yadda yadda yadda. After all, he doesn't know what it is they've been doing to suddenly detect as Evil, so he's going to need some time to work out that, yes, they've fallen onto the dark path by choice, rather than happenstance and only once he makes that realisation should he take drastic action against them.

Just some thoughts.

[Alejandro]

A rival assassins' guild shows up, pissed that these rogues killed a target that they were after and costing them a pile of money. They try to kill the rogues, and the party must fight them off. (I assume the paladin will help defend his party members.)

The first guild gets angry that the rogues just killed some members of the rival guild, possibly starting a war between the two guilds, and declares the rogues persona non grata.

[TinyHippo]

Next contract is on their buddy the paladin. Do they kill a party member, or repent of their evil ways? ZOMG the dramas eleventyone1!1!1!

That's assuming they aren't immature people playing chaotic stupid of course.

[TuggyNE]

That's assuming they aren't immature people playing chaotic stupid of course.

Frankly, I find this a bit of a dubious assumption. It does, however, solve the problem to some extent, assuming PvP is not cause for hard feelings.

Which is also a bit of a dubious assumption.

[TinyHippo]

Frankly, I find this a bit of a dubious assumption. It does, however, solve the problem to some extent, assuming PvP is not cause for hard feelings.

Which is also a bit of a dubious assumption.

Yeah, the "jumped at the chance to be assassins while partied with a paladin" bit leaves me without much hope, but it could just be a combination of standard murderhobo expectations and being accustomed to doing whatever the DM puts in front of you.

[Metahuman1]

I would tell the players that there guild is sending them to the opposite side of the world for a very special contract and to roll new characters.

[Kornaki]

If they are honestly willing to go CE and accept the possibility of having to pvp the paladin, test their real resolve...

There can only be one. Urban deathmatch, whoever wins is the new assassin. At least now they don't have numbers on the good guy

[Ryu_Bonkosi]

If they're not receptive, appeal to the Paladins' Player. Sure his character will detect the Rogues as being Evil, but they never did before. Is there yet a chance for redemption? If he thinks there might be, he could still adventure with them, constantly badgering at them to right there wrongful ways, yadda yadda yadda. After all, he doesn't know what it is they've been doing to suddenly detect as Evil, so he's going to need some time to work out that, yes, they've fallen onto the dark path by choice, rather than happenstance and only once he makes that realisation should he take drastic action against them.

This could work well, and if the two players are so set on the class abilities that assassin brings to the table, offer them the Avenger class if they decide to return to being non-evil.

[StreamOfTheSky]

I'm in favor of whatever route you go that punishes or screws over the rogues as opposed to the paladin, as much as possible.

The assassin's guild going after the rogues makes sense and is probably the most laser-guided karma missile you can deliver.

The paladin did nothing wrong here, I'm a little disturbed that most of the suggestions here are things that would mostly suck for him or make it an even stickier situation for him than it already is.

[JellyPooga]

I'm in favor of whatever route you go that punishes or screws over the rogues as opposed to the paladin, as much as possible.

I don't think this is a case of punishment/screwing one player either way. The GM inadvertently created a situation he didn't want and needs a get-out-of-jail card with his party intact. The best solution would be to work out, with his players, a way to make it work with everyone happy (which was the focus/intent of the bulk of my suggestions, anyway).

[Stake A Vamp]

as gaming group is in 20 minutes, i have decided to let them role-play it out, if it comes to PVP, so be it (everyone will enjoy that, especially if i throw some goblins into the mix) yes i do know i am kinda screwing the party over, but i realized that i don't need to save them, it was their decision, i have given them warning, now they face the consequences (the paladin is an experienced played, the assassins are newbies)

[Jay R]

What do i do to get out of this hole i dug for myself?

First, start thinking precisely. You didn't make this situation, and you aren't threatened by it. The players did not coordinate character creation, and are set up to pay for it.

The question is really, "What do the players do to get out of the hole they dug for themselves?"

well, that's a very solid plan B, any ideas to prevent the fight?

Not a chance. This has not been a railroad game, don't make it one now.

It's the DM's responsibility to provide a world in which careful, teamwork-focused characters can survive. It is emphatically not the DM's responsibility to protect the PCs from their own actions.

[Stake A Vamp]

First, start thinking precisely. You didn't make this situation, and you aren't threatened by it. The players did not coordinate character creation, and are set up to pay for it.

The question is really, "What do the players do to get out of the hole they dug for themselves?"



Not a chance. This has not been a railroad game, don't make it one now.

It's the DM's responsibility to provide a world in which careful, teamwork-focused characters can survive. It is emphatically not the DM's responsibility to protect the PCs from their own actions.

already decided that, but thank you, also, i will post what happens if anyone is interested in how this turns out

[Jay R]

already decided that, but thank you, also, i will post what happens if anyone is interested in how this turns out

Sure, we'd love to read it. Should be quite a train wreck.

[Lord Torath]

already decided that, but thank you, also, i will post what happens if anyone is interested in how this turns out

Yes, please!

[Ryu_Bonkosi]

I am dieing (and so will the assassins ) to find out how this ends.

[Stake A Vamp]

so, here's how it goes.

the assassin is caught by the paladin and the cleric. they detirmine that he is evil of his own accord, and that he killed two people. they set a trap for his superior, (in exchange for the assassins life, he has to help them kill his superior). they get his superior (a drow rogue 5, assassin 1, shadowdancer 1) with a charm person (the save to which she rolls a natural 1) and they talk some, eventually they discover that it is just her and a greator shadow (a CR 10 encounter overall, with a 3rd level party), then they attack the drow, and kill her in the suprise round. through a mixture of heal spells, lucky rolls, and misfortune on my part, they kill the shadow, and nobody even dies!, my players are devastatingly lucky

[ZeroGear]

Why not just get them to turn the Paladin into a Blackguard? Yay for Evil Groups!

[Sith_Happens]

the assassin is caught by the paladin and the cleric. they detirmine that he is evil of his own accord, and that he killed two people. they set a trap for his superior, (in exchange for the assassins life, he has to help them kill his superior)

Ah, community service. Of course.

[StreamOfTheSky]

I don't think this is a case of punishment/screwing one player either way.

So far, there have been suggestions to:
1. Dupe the paladin into attacking a fellow paladin because the NPC is completely axe crazy.
2. Put out a hit on the paladin and leave it up to the murderous PCs to decide if he lives or not
3. Turn the Paladin blackguard

Among other things. Nearly every idea suggested hurts the Paladin more than it does the little psychopaths, or only screws him over.

So excuse me if I view this entire thread as "ways to punish a player who wasn't even involved in this incident."

[Ceiling_Squid]

So far, there have been suggestions to:
1. Dupe the paladin into attacking a fellow paladin because the NPC is completely axe crazy.
2. Put out a hit on the paladin and leave it up to the murderous PCs to decide if he lives or not
3. Turn the Paladin blackguard

Among other things. Nearly every idea suggested hurts the Paladin more than it does the little psychopaths, or only screws him over.

So excuse me if I view this entire thread as "ways to punish a player who wasn't even involved in this incident."

I tend to agree. It's like blame-shifting is easy the moment a party has a paladin. People automatically assume that problems with party cohesion is the paladin's fault, and that he should be punished.

You know, instead of the players who somehow decided that murdering innocent peasants in exchange for gear was within the purview of chaotic neutral. Nope, lets help them get off scot-free and punish the moral guardian of the party to facilitate their actions!

Gotta love DnD.

All-in-all, nice handling of the situation, OP. You got a minor sidequest out of it, and it sounds like things can work out.

[JellyPooga]

I tend to agree. It's like blame-shifting is easy the moment a party has a paladin. People automatically assume that problems with party cohesion is the paladin's fault, and that he should be punished.

To be fair, if the Paladin was just a Fighter, or any class that doesn't ping Detect Evil at will, the "problem" wouldn't exist. It would merely have been a side-line for the assassins.

Sure, the righteous character might find out eventually and had a beef with it, but from the way the OP described the situation, it was the Paladins trigger-happy nature with his Detect Evil that was the problem, not the fact that the rogues were off being assassins.

Most situations with party cohesion *are* the Paladins fault, just for being a Paladin. As soon as a player says "I'm going to be a Paladin", he might as well be saying "Right, everyone else has to fall into line with the way I (or at least my character) want to play the game, or there'll be party conflict". Proverbial sticks in places or not, even with the most groovy and chilled out Paladin, there's no getting away from that.

I'm not saying it's something the Paladin should be punished for, just that the Paladin wouldn't have much ground to stand on if he tried to argue that it wasn't his fault at all.
Similarly, I'm not saying that the Rogues in this situation (or any other character in a similar one) weren't to blame for instigating the potential conflict; after all, they knew who they were playing with. It's just that the Paladin and his Code of Honour is undeniably at the core of the actual problem at hand.

Saying that the Paladin is blameless in these kind of situations is simply not true and anyone who plays a Paladin should be willing to deal with the consequences of playing a character that lives by such a strict set of rules. The same goes for any character; if I were to play a character who has a compulsion to steal, for example, I can't complain to the GM when he consistently marches rich-looking merchants past me or points out that there's an expensive looking candlestick in the Barons study. If you accept a character with a flaw, don't expect it not to be exploited.

[StreamOfTheSky]

It's rare the gods bestow gifts like this. Allow me to savor it a little...

To be fair, if the Paladin was just a Fighter, or any class that doesn't ping Detect Evil at will, the "problem" wouldn't exist. It would merely have been a side-line for the assassins.

Sure, the righteous character might find out eventually and had a beef with it, but from the way the OP described the situation, it was the Paladins trigger-happy nature with his Detect Evil that was the problem, not the fact that the rogues were off being assassins.

So in response to claims of blame shifting...you shift the blame. Amazing.
A Paladin *should* be detecting evil nearly always. His code has strict rules about working with evil, and he's granted a 24/7 ability to detect evil. Even if he isn't punished for "unknowingly" working with evil, I doubt his god would take kindly to him remaining unknowing of the evil he works with by going out of his way to not do the most basic check of it.

Most situations with party cohesion *are* the Paladins fault, just for being a Paladin. As soon as a player says "I'm going to be a Paladin", he might as well be saying "Right, everyone else has to fall into line with the way I (or at least my character) want to play the game, or there'll be party conflict". Proverbial sticks in places or not, even with the most groovy and chilled out Paladin, there's no getting away from that.

Or they could just not be chaotic evil psychopaths. I realize for a lot of people that's difficult, but somehow most of us manage it. You can be an actual CN character and co-exist with a paladin just fine, the problem here is these characters are the "chaotic neutral" variety.

I'm...really speechless right now. Just by being a paladin, the rogues' crimes and the fallout about to occur from them are partly his fault. WTF?!

Similarly, I'm not saying that the Rogues in this situation (or any other character in a similar one) weren't to blame for instigating the potential conflict; after all, they knew who they were playing with. It's just that the Paladin and his Code of Honour is undeniably at the core of the actual problem at hand.

Yes, they did know who they were playing/adventuring with. You know when you should voice dissent over a paladin in the group? BEFORE YOU START. The OP mentioned nothing of others objecting to having a paladin in the party up to now and they seemed to be getting along, so it's pretty big freaking lunging reach for you to portray this as the mean tyrannical paladin player forcing his way into the party.

I'm not saying it's something the Paladin should be punished for...

Saying that the Paladin is blameless in these kind of situations is simply not true and anyone who plays a Paladin should be willing to deal with the consequences of playing a character that lives by such a strict set of rules. The same goes for any character; if I were to play a character who has a compulsion to steal, for example, I can't complain to the GM when he consistently marches rich-looking merchants past me or points out that there's an expensive looking candlestick in the Barons study. If you accept a character with a flaw, don't expect it not to be exploited.

If you're going to completely contradict yourself, at least wait for another post to do it!

[JellyPooga]

It's rare the gods bestow gifts like this. Allow me to savor it a little...

Hey, don't shoot the messenger dude. I'm just providing objective observation.

If you're going to completely contradict yourself, at least wait for another post to do it!

"Punishment" and "consequences" are not one and the same, I think you'll find.

The "consequences" of the Paladin being in the party (in this particular case) are that he's going to have to deal with party conflict due both to his own characters code and the actions of other players. This is not a "punishment".

I'm not putting the blame squarely on the Paladin. I don't disagree that the Rogues in this instance were causing a problem by going down the path they did. I don't advocate playing CN as a "psychopath". You're right that Paladins should be trigger-happy with their Detect Evil and I agree that if the Rogues in this instance were contemplating going down a dark path from the get go, that the best way to avoid conflict would be to announce this as soon as possible.

The only thing I'm asserting is that the Paladin is not completely blameless here and that part of playing his character well would be to handle problems of this nature when they're thrown his way, in good grace.

As far as I understand it from the "follow up", that's exactly how it went down.

[Ceiling_Squid]

I disagree on some very fundamental levels with this view of paladins, JellyPooga, but admittedly I understand where you're coming from, and that your arguments have merit in most cases. I will freely admit that it takes a mature and experienced player to handle a paladin well, and having one in the party shouldn't be something taken lightly.

I just think sometimes harm to party cohesion and action by the party paladin IS a valid consequence for blatantly evil behavior. But it takes a mature group to handle that kind of inter-party conflict, and admittedly such groups are rare.

Paladins are a divisive issue anyway. I'd rather not get myself riled up and enter a long argument.

The OP defused the situation nicely, so all is good. It's probably the best way it could have worked out. I must hand it to you, Stake a Vamp, you did good. Even got a side quest out of it.