OOTS #889 - The Discussion Thread

[ralphmerridew]

I won't address whether the illusion sequence is filler.

I think filler is necessarily bad in itself, but there are certainly bad places to put filler.

When there isn't anything immediate, or the author wants to just establish time is passing (the road trip after Dorukan's dungeon, or the ocean trip), or even to give the reader a breather, is fine.

Having filler when there are imminent plot points is a bad place (in the middle of the trial, or 423 - 484 or so).

[Sir_Leorik]

There is an edit button on the bottom right of your posts, please use it.

The definition for "filler" that B. Dandelion wants us to adopt is not the definition of "filler" used in Webcomics. People are entitled to say they did not enjoy the current story arc, they are even entitled to say that they feel they that reading the current arc was a complete waste of their time. I'm entitled to disagree with them, but they have the right to complain. They don't have the right to force me to use their redefinition of a word in the English language as it applies to the medium of Webcomics.

[EmperorSarda]

How I make this presumption I have no idea.

I make the presumption that you think the story revolves around the readers based on what you said, particularly;

We, the readers, already knew it was an illusion. So basically we just waited through a few pages just so the characters would figure out what we already knew, and then get out.

You wanted the illusion to end right after it was revealed to be an illusion. Nevermind the storytelling of how the Order breaks the illusion, it went too long for you because you, not the Order, knew it was illusion. How else can I make any other presumption?

Again, I have no idea how you reach this odd conclusion.

If you weren't just interested in them getting to the Gate, wouldn't you like to see how the Order breaks through the illusion rather than wanting the illusion to end because we knew it was an illusion?

The reason I was finding it tiring as soon as the spiral comic was because it was reiterating what we already knew. In the previous comic, we learned they were under the illusion of stuff going right for them. And in the next comic...what do you know, we find out exactly what we knew previously. It feels redundant.

Which only serves my point, that you're wanting reader knowledge to lead the story. It isn't redundant because we find out the depth of the illusion. Because we see them breaking out. Because it takes a pivotal moment on Elan's part to see that things aren't as they should be.

.

But if it hadn't been revealed it was an illusion, then the next page (the "spiral" page), has a different effect. Rather than being redundant, it heightens the mystery. "Wait, they defeated Xykon, and now everything is being fixed? This can't be the actual end of the story, this wrap up is occurring too quickly! Really, what's going on here?" (obviously it'd be necessary to make a few changes, e.g. excising Tsukiko from the panel, because that gives the answer too easily)

Yes, the Giant would have to do things completely differently if we was trying to keep the readers fooled that it was an illusion. A completely different layout for the spiral comic, Tsukiko as you said. But you're wanting the story that is told to be told differently. Fooling us more wasn't the Giant's intent, and while you claim redundancy, there is a lot revealed about their hopes, their dreams, what they expect to happen. Even it being Elan to be the one to break out.

Which I think works, because if the next strip had them breaking out of the illusion, because it was revealed to the readers that it was an illusion, then we'd think the epic illusion trap was weak, that it took only a moment to break out of it. Rather than us not knowing how much time they spent being trapped in the illusion.

Then, finally, we have the last page in this sequence, where Elan figures it all out. With us already knowing for sure it's an illusion, it's just him saying "hey, you know how the last few pages were an illusion? Guess what, they were an illusion!".

Except that's only a brief outline of what happens, because it is the How that makes Elan recognize that. It is having to convince Haley and Roy of that too to break out. It is Elan coming to the conclusion that his parents probably shouldn't get back together. Maybe even abandoning his plans to redeem his father.

But the thing is, the story is presented in the "update or two a week" that we get. If the story was only released in book form, you'd have more of an excuse here, but it's not. It's updated bit by bit, and pacing issues in regards to that are valid.

Except that is what all these comics are intended for, print format. So they have to work print wise, and not just in an online format.

[Kaulguard]

Super dark is referring to your penchant to have 4-7 posts in a row. SD is saying, if you have more to say, edit your post to reflect that. Me, I don't care one way or another, but you have misunderstood the thrust of SD's post.

Ole Helpful Kaulguard, that's what they call me.

[sam79]

Besides, Count Durkon is a vampire people! How many times do I need to remind you guys, that Undead have immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects)!

Not that is really relevent to the wider debate going on here, but the effectiveness of 'regular' immunities against Epic-level effects is not at all a given.

The various definitions of 'filler' used here seem so at odds so as to preclude the possibility of drawing clear lines of argument, let alone reaching any useful conclusions.

For what its worth, I found the illusion sequence pretty enjoyable, both artistically and story-wise. It has certainly slowed our heroes down from reaching their goals, but to what extent and with what consequences, we don't yet know. And it has enabled Elan to come to some harc conclusions about his life and family ('family' seeming to me to be one of the key themes of this whole arc).

[Sir_Leorik]

Um... what? Your reaction to 885 was that there was no evidence whatever that Xykon might possibly be an illusion. NOW your reaction was, there is no evidence IN THIS EXACT STRIP that Xykon might be an illusion? I see. Any other retroactive changes to what you said that you'd like to engineer?

Its not a retroactive change. When strip #885 was released I did not believe Xykon was an illusion and when I heard the theory in the forums I disagreed with it. Why? Because I didn't see clues that convinced me Xykon and Redcloak weren't real. I had no idea what the runes did.

Then strip #886 came out, and after reading and rereading it, I realized that the Xykon and Redcloak on the previous page were fake. But it was only upon reading page #886 that I was convinced.

I understand that you want a specific mea culpa, but I'm not sure which one will satisfy you. I was not convinced Xykon and Redcloak were illusionary until the author provided proof in the forms of subtle clues throughout strip #886, ending up with the grand slam of Roy, Elan, Haley and Belkar in a trancelike stupor. So you were right, you called it beforehand. But I still have the right to say I was unconvinced before reading strip #886. (In light of all the readers who still don't seem to understand that the events in the last panel of strip #885 and everything since then until the last panel of #888 occurred in a phantasmal dream world, I don't understand what you're trying to prove.)

EDIT:

I don't need a mea culpa...You were wrong, it's cool, let it go, and please stop patting yourself on the back for not seeing the evidence. Again, I'm happy to let this lie, if you will.

Fine. I'm perfectly happy to stop raising the issue if you are. I'm sorry for insulting anyone. Let's just put this whole thing behind us and never mention it again.

[Throknor]

His encounter with Julio was a start, but most of what he learned from Julio were how to be a more effective hero. The lessons he learned in books four and five have taught Elan to be a better person.



The problem is that some people are using the term "filler" to mean "anything in the comic I don't like", rather than its actual meaning: "something that is put together to take up space, such as a guest artist drawing the comic, or a brief interlude where the OotS answer fake letters in order to put space between books one and two".

I'm starting to think they aren't using it incorrectly, per se. They just have very low threshold for character development. The kind of people that keep bringing us Fast & Furious movies. So I'm going to just classify their warbling as 'filler' and move on.

Belkar is likely still alive. He is still standing in the penultimate panel. The pertinent questions are:

Is he still in the illusion? The runes still glowing seem to indicate he is.

Is Mr. Scruffy in the illusion, or has he been trying to wake Belkar?

Will the other three try break him out? Elan would definitely argue for it, and Haley probably would. I think Roy has grown enough to not leave him to starve to death in an illusion. He'd probably reason that their next battle would be fatal without having to feel guilty about it.

Can they break him out? It's an epic illusion. Elan broke out from within, taking Roy and Haley with him. It might be harder to do from outside.

Will they try to break the runes? While there may be a danger they could be re-captured, they may be the last of Girard's original defenses, and they need all the help they can get.

How long would Vaarsuvius be entranced? His greatest wish right now is probably to change his past decisions. If the illusion tries to get him back with Inky with somehow breaking the contract he might have a decent shot of getting through.

Nale would succumb easily, as his likely desires (killing Elan and taking over the continent) wouldn't give him anything he'd be suspicious of. No idea about Z.

If vampires can't be targeted, it's probably even money if Malack would simply take Durkon and leave if given the opportunity.

Can liches be targeted? Would the red-cloak artifact protect Redcloak? Would the MITD be hit? I think the divergent nature of what they'd want would be trouble, so I don't see them falling into it. If they split it severely limits the motivation for the next gate.

Okay, enough for now.

[Kaulguard]

Its not a retroactive change. When strip #885 was released I did not believe Xykon was an illusion and when I heard the theory in the forums I disagreed with it. Why? Because I didn't see clues that convinced me Xykon and Redcloak weren't real. I had no idea what the runes did.

Then strip #886 came out, and after reading and rereading it, I realized that the Xykon and Redcloak on the previous page were fake. But it was only upon reading page #886 that I was convinced.

I understand that you want a specific mea culpa, but I'm not sure which one will satisfy you. I was not convinced Xykon and Redcloak were illusionary until the author provided proof in the forms of subtle clues throughout strip #886, ending up with the grand slam of Roy, Elan, Haley and Belkar in a trancelike stupor. So you were right, you called it beforehand. But I still have the right to say I was unconvinced before reading strip #886. (In light of all the readers who still don't seem to understand that the events in the last panel of strip #885 and everything since then until the last panel of #888 occurred in a phantasmal dream world, I don't understand what you're trying to prove.)

I don't need a mea culpa. What happened was more than 'I didn't think the theory was correct, I was unconvinced'. You actively mocked those who thought it was an illusion, which would be fine in and of itself, if you did not insist upon continuing to self-congratulate and claim no evidence existed - "Those who guessed with no evidence, based upon a hunch, see, even Elan agrees with me." You were wrong, it's cool, let it go, and please stop patting yourself on the back for not seeing the evidence. Again, I'm happy to let this lie, if you will.

[bengator]

I think, too, that what some view as filler adds some charm to the comic. I have been reading for a long time, and while I have enjoyed the evolution of the comic from D & D gags to an in depth story, one of the things that draws me in and keeps me reading is Rich's sense of humor. I think the mail comics were funny, and I laughed out loud at Milk Dudes and other jokes. So I think it is important to keep it in perspective and enjoy the comic for what it is. For this reader, Rich has earned my trust that if the story arc slows or gets paused, its because something funny is going to happen or because we are getting information that will be important in some way down the road. I can think of very few, if any, "filler" comics that do not fall under one of these two categories.

[Liliet]

His encounter with Julio was a start, but most of what he learned from Julio were how to be a more effective hero. The lessons he learned in books four and five have taught Elan to be a better person.

Elan was ALWAYS a good person, as in Good. But he didn`t care. He thought everything would work out somehow and was just trying to have as much fun along the way as possible. Cliffport arc was first time he accepted responsibility and acted actively. This was the first step on the way, whether you call it "becoming a better person" or "becoming a person".

Care to point me out where people said this?
No because it's almost like you're making things up tu support your own point.

Hey
Hey Rich
It's an illusion, I think we all get it
Can we actually move on or is it going to be relevant somehow to the main plot

e: Also why is Leaky Wetshaft even in this strip, he was a complete non-character

That's the second strip in a row that both isn't real (third if you count 95% of #886) and is also not funny. I hope this boring waste of time doesn't drag on any longer.

OK. It's a nice strip, but it is still just a waste of space.

It's a dream. We can neither say something has happened, or will happen. Nor can we say it didn't or won't. Is there character development? Maybe, maybe not. Any such point will have to be confirmed in future strips, which means they do not need to be mentioned here at all. We get maybe a scene in the future where Elan maybe says he saw his parents remarried and now considers that a goal to cause/prevent. But we will need to have that scene anyway and the wedding scene is just not needed.
In the middle of a book, the meaningless strip is no big thing, but the current book is already the longest yet, and needs ending, not padding. This is the sort of page that belongs in the printed & expanded version.

This is all from the previous thread, from BEFORE the holy war started. Enough?

That is to say, I personally am not, in fact, arguing with you. You and I just can`t agree on terms. I`m arguing with those people.

[the_tick_rules]

Lot of reading. I was wondering how long the dream was gonna last.

[quasit]

If vampires can't be targeted, it's probably even money if Malack would simply take Durkon and leave if given the opportunity.

Can liches be targeted? Would the red-cloak artifact protect Redcloak? Would the MITD be hit? I think the divergent nature of what they'd want would be trouble, so I don't see them falling into it. If they split it severely limits the motivation for the next gate.

Okay, enough for now.

Being epic magic, might somehow bypass those generic undead spell immunity traits, and that assuming full d&d rulement enforcement, but we've no clue about how the runes work. Also being both of them reasonably high level clerics they have better chances to shake off the illusion, under an assumption again: that the runes allow a "save" rather than just having to reason your way out willingly (which may be represented by the abstract notion of a will save... nuts )

Anyway, I'm expecting the runes to not affect undead; because that would leave just M and count dorkula to face the order, and maybe having a word or two... with the LG living members conveniently disabled. Not that I don't expect said meeting ending in physical crass violence, but I find that option far more interesting.

If TE arrives at the party; things just are going to get real. Realer than now. I'm expecting them to arrive at the Arc's finalle, thrashing everybody around (and probably ending with another gate going KRRAACKKAKOOOOOOM!). So they getting nullyfied so easily seems to me unlikely. But regarding MItD if I recall correctly

Spoiler

Show

He's already geased

so he might not be immune to the runes neither.

[B. Dandelion]

The definition for "filler" that B. Dandelion wants us to adopt is not the definition of "filler" used in Webcomics. People are entitled to say they did not enjoy the current story arc, they are even entitled to say that they feel they that reading the current arc was a complete waste of their time. I'm entitled to disagree with them, but they have the right to complain. They don't have the right to force me to use their redefinition of a word in the English language as it applies to the medium of Webcomics.

I'm slightly annoyed by the implication here I'm trying to "force" anyone to do anything in service of calling the arc a subjective waste of time. I am neither trying to impose semantics nor do I think the subplot was a waste of time in the least. What I wanted to do was pick a definition for "filler" everyone could agree to for the sake of the argument, not for the sake of writing a dictionary definition to use for all time.

If "filler" is defined as something that exists only to kill time, by definition the comic doesn't have any, or at least has not had any since it stopped trying to keep to a set schedule. That kind of "filler" exists because of deadlines and other timing issues (needing to wait for more source material in anime, for example).

But people were using the word here to mean "a subplot that could be safely excised from the work while losing nothing of importance". Frankly, I think of a lot of works that aren't deadline-based as having that kind of "filler" as well, so I don't take issue with their semantics. My issue is that this definition is inherently subjective but people who are calling it filler are citing the term as objective. "Value" is in the eye of the beholder.

[SteveMB]

For these reasons, I strongly believe it would have been far superior if we weren't let in on the secret right away and instead learned it along with the characters.

I don't see how that could have worked, at all.

Imagine the comic modified just enough to conceal the illusion spell (the last panel of #886 replaced by a close-up of Roy or something, and #887 in standard panel format). The sudden victory and happy ending after so much long struggle would still bear an obvious air of fakeness to the reader, especially given the established fact that Gerard protected his Gate with illusions.

A much longer illusion sequence, with the clues that something was wrong appearing more gradually, might have preserved the secret, at the cost of seriously derailing the pace of the actual-event storyline. That might work in some stories, but not in the one being told here, IMO.

[Coat]

Haven't read the whole thread. Am not going to.

Want to say that IMHO the illusion strips are absolutely worth including because they are beautiful. Even if they do nothing else, that is reason enough.

That said:
(1) We've seen the Disney ending and it was all a dream: the Giant has just told us what won't happen. Elan's prophecy will almost certainly still be fulfilled, but IMHO this is the Giant telling us that dark times are ahead.
(2) Elan has just grown up a bit
(3) Elan has just been very useful
(4) Some time has passed, and we don't know what's happened in that time. (warning, secret stuff may contain PLOT).
(5) Belkar (may have) just found out that he's disposable
(6) Belkar may still be trapped in the dream-world
(7) We've found out what the full-functional illusion trap does

There's probably other things I've missed. But that seems like a decent amount of reveal for a few strips to me.

I'm not sure I could make that strong a case for the value of 888: but (A) hindsight may be needed to fully appreciate it and (B) who cares! It's a free webcomic!

I'm now off to my local grocer to complain that I've been getting too much free beer, and though it was all excellent, I thought one of the brews was less good than the others.

[ZarDaranth]

I'm now off to my local grocer to complain that I've been getting too much free beer, and though it was all excellent, I thought one of the brews was less good than the others.

Order of the Stick IPA: Half the graphic design, ten times the body!

[Snails]

Skipping forward....

This is not "filler".

This is Elan growing up in the way that matters the most. He is openly and explicitly recognizing the nature of his father (and other aspects of the adult world). He may have understood enough to pull out his sword for a rooftop duel, but only after being shocked beyond anger and fear. The detente put him in a comfortable place where Elan might well have kept his head in the sand indefinitely.

Why this matters to the main plot line is that it means Elan has much grown further beyond where Tarquin's manipulations are likely to work as intended.

Personally I think a la-la dream sequence could have been milked to reveal a lot about others in the Order in all kinds of marvelous ways, but this seems like a logical enough place to move on.

[Anatares]

Did anyone else not notice Sabine has her tail out until this comic? It's in the previous one too, so subtle.

[The Giant]

This argument about whether or not certain strips are "filler" is way out of hand, has derailed all other discussion of the strip, has led to personal insults from both sides, and is ultimately serving no purpose.

I'm locking this thread and ending this discussion. You can all sit and wait until the next comic comes out for a new discussion thread. Don't start a new thread on the topic of "filler" (either pro or con).

Warnings and infractions may be coming for individuals who have crossed the line.