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    Firbolg in the Playground
     
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    Default D&D 5th Edition X: Where's the Craft (RPG System) skill?

    Welcome to the 10th thread discussing D&D 5th Edition, aka D&D Next!

    As is (by now) well known to every RPGer who hasn’t spent their past year hiding under a rock, a new edition of D&D is coming out. When? Well, they’re not telling us. What they are giving us is an open playtest, which you can sign up for right here. At the time of writing, the most recent playtest packet dates from April 1st, 2013.

    Use this thread to discuss the playtest, the weekly mostly-weekly Legends and Lore update articles from Mike Mearls, and other news relating to D&D’s new edition.

    Useful (and freshly updated!) links:
    Penny Arcade / PvP 5e Podcasts:
    Previous threads:
    Last edited by Saph; 2013-05-22 at 01:40 AM.
    I'm the author of the Alex Verus series of urban fantasy novels. Fated is the first, and Book #10 in the series, Fallen, is out as of September 2019. For updates, check my blog!

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    Default Re: D&D 5th Edition X: Where's the Craft (RPG System) skill?

    OK, because of my OCD list making, I needed to post this:

    Summary of D&D Next Rules and Controversies

    Big Picture

    • There will probably not be an SRD.
    • In April 2012, lead D&D Next writer Monte Cook quit WotC due to "differences of opinion with the company" but not "with [his] fellow designers".
    • There is a major debate between "rules for consistency, balance is up to the DM" and "rules for balance, consistency is up to the DM". In other words, should the rules allow a DM to build and simulate a consistent game world (where players and NPCs and monsters all use the same rules), and it's up to the DM to balance out the game. Or should the rules create a balanced game, and leave it to the DM to make the game world and plot line consistent.
    • Should D&D Next have a long list of highly codified class abilities/powers/feats? (Like 4E or 3.X with supplements). Or should D&D Next have a small set of mostly generic abilities? (Like 1st and 2nd edition, and the current version of D&D Next). A more complicated game allows for more balance (if done with balance as a goal, like 4E) and/or a greater variety of rules, subsystems, and options. A simpler game allows for faster, easier combat in the "theater of the mind" and it allows players and DMs more room for improvisation, but it lends itself to vague rules, boring non-magical characters, and lots of dead levels.



    Checks

    • Most things (including Skills, Attack Rolls, and Saving Throws) are determined by relatively simple Ability Checks. 1d20 + relevant Ability modifier + bonuses or penalties (of which there are relatively few), which is compared to a Difficulty Chance, Armor Class, or an enemy's opposed roll.
    • Ability Checks, including Skills, Attack Rolls, Armor Class, and Saving Throws, do not scale. This is known as bounded accuracy. This means that low level abilities/spells/monsters/etc are more useful throughout all levels of the game. But it also means that high-level characters aren't all that much better at most things than low-level characters. Bounded Accuracy has a tremendous impact on the metagame in a wide variety of ways.



    Advantage and Disadvantage

    • There are far fewer miscellaneous modifiers. Instead, circumstances can grant you Advantage (roll 2d20 and use the higher result) or Disadvantage (roll 2d20 and use the lower result) on various Checks. No matter how many times you gain Advantage or Disadvantage on the same check, attack roll, or saving throw, you roll only one additional d20. If you have Advantage and Disadvantage on the same check, attack roll, or saving throw, they cancel each other out for that roll.
    • In case you're wondering what that translates to in terms of a numerical bonus, here's a chart:
      Spoiler
      Show
    • Advantage or Disadvantage generally occurs due to DM fiat - "when the DM thinks some task or monster should be easy, he can give the players advantage." Some people think this is is clever design, others think it's a cop-out Oberoni fallacy.



    Ability Scores

    • Like every edition, D&D Next uses Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma.
    • Every class uses it's primary Ability Score for most of it's attack and damage rolls. You can add your Dexterity modifier to your attack rolls and damage rolls for finesse weapons and missile weapons. (And don't have to waste a Feat or whatnot on Weapon Finesse). Wizards use Intelligence for most rolls, Clerics use Wisdom, etc.
    • Apart from whatever Attribute your class depends on, like most previous editions the most important Attributes are your Constitution (hit points, Saving Throws vs poison, disease, etc) and Dexterity (AC bonus when unarmored or in light armor, Initiative, finesse weapons, ranged weapons, Saving Throws vs most area of effect attacks, and some of the most useful Skills). But you probably don't want to dump any Attribute entirely, because in theory every Attribute is used for some Saving Throws and/or opposed Checks, and Bounded Accuracy makes your Ability Score bonuses (or penalties) a lot more important.
    • Ability scores are capped at 20. Magic items and spells can improve ability scores beyond this cap. This ruling is a part of the Bounded Accuracy game design.



    Skills

    • As mentioned above, Skills have been replaced by Ability Checks. There are no Skill points. Instead, your Background grants you four trained Skills. When you make a check for a task related to one of your trained Skills, you get to add a Skill Die to it. It starts as 1d6, but increases as you gain levels up to 1d12.
    • Rogues get extra trained Skills and a lot of other Skill based crunch.
    • The variance math of the Skill system is such that experts have a significant chance of losing a skill contest against a rank amateur.
    • The list of Skills is highly granular, and mostly mirrors the 3.0/3.5-ish list.
    • How, whether, or to what degree non-combat Skills (Knowledge, Profession, etc) should be included is hotly debated.
    • This whole issue of how Skills are handled is currently up in the air.



    Classes

    • Each class does it's own thing. Wizards use Vancian casting. Clerics use 3.5 Spirit Shaman casting. Rogues have a bunch of Skill abilities. Fighters are the "simple" class that don't do much but deal damage. Barbarians Rage. Rangers have Favored Enemies. Monks mostly suck.
    • This basically means that Tiers are back, ie, non-casters can do far fewer things then casters, in that they do not have a set of scaled abilities (like spells, psionic powers, maneuvers, vestiges, soulmelds, or 4E style powers).
    • Dead and dead-ish levels (where the class gets nothing but a minor numerical bonus) are back. LOTS of them. And they still suck. Really not sure how on earth this happened, since pretty much everyone universally agreed that dead levels are a terrible thing. I assume it's lazy writing, or a misguided attempt to make things simpler, or ape the worst parts of previous editions.



    Movement
    [LIST][*]Everyone gets Spring Attack by default, (you can move, use your Action, and continue your movement), which makes combat very "wobbly."


    Action Economy
    • A complete mess at this point. Everyone gets one Action, one Move, and one Reaction. Plus their are Swift spells, ways to gain extra actions, non-actions, and "as part of your action."
    • Action Advantage is still a huge problem, in that it's still possible to stack numerous "non-actions" and extra actions, such as Spiritual Weapon, Healing Word, Action Surge, Cleave, or other "combined actions."


    Races
    • The laundry list of bonuses to various things are mostly gone, instead, races have a smaller number of more meaningful/useful abilities.
    • Humans are arguably the strongest and/or most flexible race. They get +2 to on Attribute and +1 to all other Attributes. Every other race gets only +1 to a specific Attribute and a handful of more situational benefits.


    Note: I've severely edited this post. Since we go through a D&D Next thread about once a week, I hope it can be used as a living template by other Playgrounders as new threads are created, so anyone who doesn't want to read through hundreds of posts can get a general sense about what everyone is talking about. I will add more as I see them in the thread, and I'll do my best to organize them. If you have any additions, please let me know.

    Thanks.

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    Default Re: D&D 5th Edition X: Where's the Craft (RPG System) skill?

    Quote Originally Posted by Person_Man View Post
    Woot! New thread. So, does anyone have a good list of the current controversies? Here's a start:

    1) Non-casters still suck.
    That's an issue and I don't see WotC fixing it. But it would be nice.

    2) Everyone gets Spring Attack by default.
    In my experience, that works fine, but possibly with a small penalty on the attack roll.

    3) Attacks of Opportunity don't exist.
    In my experience, AoOs do exist, but more when somebody moves past you (through a threatened square) than away from you (out of a threatened square). As an abstraction with no facing rules, the 3.X rules work for me. I want to see AoOs in 5e too.

    4) Swift/Minor Actions don't exist.
    I find that they're handy because you can put concrete limits on what you can and can't do in one round rather than leaving it to DM fiat to determine how many "non-actions" you can fit into six seconds—which leads to things like how in manga people hold full conversations in under ten seconds; sorry, it doesn't work that way.

    5) Action Advantage is still a huge problem, in that it's still possible to stack numerous "non-actions" and extra actions, such as Spiritual Weapon
    Could be fixed by adding swift/minor actions and/or some Concentration mechanic that consumes an action.

    6) To Hit and AC does not scale (bounded accuracy).
    Bleh.
    Jude P.

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    Default Re: D&D 5th Edition X: Where's the Craft (RPG System) skill?

    Quote Originally Posted by Person_Man View Post
    Woot! New thread. So, does anyone have a good list of the current controversies? Here's a start:
    (7) Whether the game should include a craft skill, and similar skills.
    (8) In the skill system, experts have a significant chance of losing a skill contest against a rank amateur.
    (9) High-level parties have a significant chance of losing saving throws against low-level effects; for instance, a level-15 or higher party will have about half of their members run away when they spot a level-10 dragon.
    (10) The underlying issue here is that high-level characters aren't all that much better at most things than low-level characters. That includes combat: the attack bonus for a level-20 character isn't that much higher than at level-1.
    (11) Whether the rule of "when the DM thinks some task or monster should be easy, he can give the players advantage" is clever design or a cop-out Oberoni fallacy.
    (12) The debate between "rules for consistency, balance is up to the DM" and "rules for balance, consistency is up to the DM".
    (13) To which extent monsters and PCs should follow the same rules.
    (14) Strawberry!
    Last edited by Kurald Galain; 2013-05-21 at 08:24 AM.
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    Default Re: D&D 5th Edition X: Where's the Craft (RPG System) skill?

    Quote Originally Posted by noparlpf View Post
    Bleh.
    Sums up my thoughts on the playtest in a nutshell.
    If my text is blue, I'm being sarcastic.But you already knew that, right?


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    Default Re: D&D 5th Edition X: Where's the Craft (RPG System) skill?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    (10) The underlying issue here is that high-level characters aren't all that much better at most things than low-level characters. That includes combat: the attack bonus for a level-20 character isn't that much higher than at level-1.
    In my opinion this is the opposite of how you should advance. It's too unrealistic—normal people don't really get more durable (HP inflation), they get better at dealing damage (by which I mean attack rolls; normal people don't need that much weapon damage to go down) while avoiding damage (AC and saves). You can argue all of that is abstracted into HP (actual health, luck, dodging, parrying, and grazing blows), but that doesn't seem particularly intuitive to me.
    Jude P.

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    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: D&D 5th Edition X: Where's the Craft (RPG System) skill?

    Quote Originally Posted by Just to Browse View Post
    EDIT: Sorry, I know I'm wasting all y'alls bandwidth. I just hate it when someone misrepresents someone else's point, especially on the internet.
    Yes, how terrible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seerow View Post
    At least he was arguing from the perspective that he felt a binary trained skill wasn't the same as having a skill that could be improved multiple times (even if in the context of the greater argument it doesn't matter because you can still make crafting something you have "trained" and therefore can do it).
    I think they are different in very important ways. It's all about the availability of resources and the granularity of the system.

    In short, if you have skill points, you can make little dips into areas of interest. ("I put two ranks in Profession: Barkeep! That means I'm roleplaying!") If your skill system relies on a trained/untrained dichotomy, every skill you learn is a heftier investment. If a feat is too hefty an investment for a random bit of character fluff (and I agree, it is!), it follows that using very limited "skill training" would be, too.

    This is why when you're talking about using a skill system for the Crafting stuff, I have an objection. In order to do this in a reasonable fashion, you need to have a much more involved subsystem than I think the entire topic of "skills" in D&D warrants.

    -O

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    Default Re: D&D 5th Edition X: Where's the Craft (RPG System) skill?

    So you're saying there's no level of competency between "I have no idea what that is" and "I'm already an expert"? And the mechanical difference is going to be fail vs. succeed, right?
    Jude P.

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    Default Re: D&D 5th Edition X: Where's the Craft (RPG System) skill?

    So I think the specific issue is that Bounded Accuracy dramatically decreases the differences between low level and high level characters/monsters/NPCs. This has the added benefit of making low level abilities and monsters more useful throughout the life of the game. (For example, any spell or ability which imposes a useful status effect). But it has the effect of changing the entire "feel" of the game. (High level characters must still fear low-level challenges/encounters).

    I'm cautiously optimistic. But there's really no way of telling how well it will work until they release a more extensive rule set with high level play involved.

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    Default Re: D&D 5th Edition X: Where's the Craft (RPG System) skill?

    Quote Originally Posted by Person_Man View Post
    I'm cautiously optimistic. But there's really no way of telling how well it will work until they release a more extensive rule set with high level play involved.
    ahahaha

    *wipes tear from eye* wow that's great. There actually are intelligent people out there who honestly believe WotC is going to release more high level material beyond maybe some half-baked rules for getting an army.

    I'm sorry, but your optimism astounds me.
    If my text is blue, I'm being sarcastic.But you already knew that, right?


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    Default Re: D&D 5th Edition X: Where's the Craft (RPG System) skill?

    Quote Originally Posted by Person_Man View Post
    So I think the specific issue is that Bounded Accuracy dramatically decreases the differences between low level and high level characters/monsters/NPCs. This has the added benefit of making low level abilities and monsters more useful throughout the life of the game. (For example, any spell or ability which imposes a useful status effect). But it has the effect of changing the entire "feel" of the game. (High level characters must still fear low-level challenges/encounters).

    I'm cautiously optimistic. But there's really no way of telling how well it will work until they release a more extensive rule set with high level play involved.
    If you want low-level abilities to stay relevant, make them scale. In 3.X, Fireball was relevant for a while because it scaled by caster level (and then later was a good low-level damage spell to add metamagic to), whereas Dodge was useless at all levels because it gave a flat and rather lackluster bonus.
    This way might work too, it just has a completely different feel, and I don't like high-level characters not being much better at things than low-level characters.
    Edit: Also, didn't Mearls say that they've more or less settled on this as the core system in a recent L&L? I'm not expecting much to change.
    Last edited by noparlpf; 2013-05-21 at 08:44 AM.
    Jude P.

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    Default Re: D&D 5th Edition X: Where's the Craft (RPG System) skill?

    Quote Originally Posted by noparlpf View Post
    In my experience, AoOs do exist, but more when somebody moves past you (through a threatened square) than away from you (out of a threatened square). As an abstraction with no facing rules, the 3.X rules work for me. I want to see AoOs in 5e too.
    Actually, lets talk about this one.

    I love tactical combat. But I think Theater of the Mind combat can be fun, too.

    I don't think D&D Next is doing a very good job of making a working system for ToTM combat. The moment you're putting everything in 5' increments and giving Fireballs a specific diameter, you're assuming a grid - even if that grid is held in your "mental theater" instead of on the table.

    I'd like to see D&D Next give a better solution for this if they want ToTM combat to be anything more than "imaginary grid" combat. FATE-like Zones, a simple linear scale with descriptors like Melee / Reach / Short / Long, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by noparlpf View Post
    So you're saying there's no level of competency between "I have no idea what that is" and "I'm already an expert"? And the mechanical difference is going to be fail vs. succeed, right?
    There's still ability scores (and 1/2 level bonuses in 4e, which would be absent in Next) but by and large if you're making a simple trained/untrained system, each trained skill is a more substantial investment than a "fluff" skill like Craft or Profession* warrants.

    -O


    * In a typical, baseline D&D game where these will seldom be critical, as opposed to climbing stuff, sneaking, or knowing lore about monsters.
    Last edited by obryn; 2013-05-21 at 08:45 AM.

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    Default Re: D&D 5th Edition X: Where's the Craft (RPG System) skill?

    Quote Originally Posted by noparlpf View Post
    So you're saying there's no level of competency between "I have no idea what that is" and "I'm already an expert"?
    Yes. Skills are binary, in that you're either trained or you're not. There is no concept so far of different ranks or points of being skilled (like, say, in Whitewolf).

    More importantly (to me) is that an expert isn't that much more likely to succeed at checks or contests than the "no idea what that is" guy. It's pretty hard to get more than +8 to any skill; so an "easy" task (that amateurs can do 55% of the time) is still failed at by experts 10% of the time. Conversely, a "hard" task (that amateurs should find impossible but in fact have 5% chance at) can only be done by an expert 45% of the time either. In a contest, the amateur will beat the expert about 16% of the time.

    In actual gameplay, differences of around +4 are more likely, which means that e.g. the clumsy loud dwarf will beat the cunning agile elf at sneaking about one time out of three.

    And the mechanical difference is going to be fail vs. succeed, right?
    Of course.
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    Default Re: D&D 5th Edition X: Where's the Craft (RPG System) skill?

    I feel like I am going to have my mind changed for me very quickly if I say this, but...

    I just looked at what bounded accuracy is, and I think it's a really good idea. It balances the game world, allows the players to take greater risks, and makes designing monsters much easier.

    Now, I think this is a good idea, within the bounds of Dnd, which I kind of dislike anyway. I disagree with the hitpoints system altogether, but for Dnd sets out to do, I think bounded accuracy was a great idea. I always hated keeping track of peoples' massive attack bonuses anyway.

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    Default Re: D&D 5th Edition X: Where's the Craft (RPG System) skill?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ozfer View Post
    I feel like I am going to have my mind changed for me very quickly if I say this, but...

    I just looked at what bounded accuracy is, and I think it's a really good idea. It balances the game world, allows the players to take greater risks, and makes designing monsters much easier.

    Now, I think this is a good idea, within the bounds of Dnd, which I kind of dislike anyway. I disagree with the hitpoints system altogether, but for Dnd sets out to do, I think bounded accuracy was a great idea. I always hated keeping track of peoples' massive attack bonuses anyway.
    Dislike D&D, like bounded accuracy.


    Sounds like I couldn't have come up with a better argument against it if I tried. Bounded accuracy, to me, represents a system that destroys a core fundamental part of D&D. Which is definitionally not what you want in a system that is supposed to be about being as D&D as it is possible to be.
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    Default Re: D&D 5th Edition X: Where's the Craft (RPG System) skill?

    Quote Originally Posted by Seerow View Post
    Sounds like I couldn't have come up with a better argument against it if I tried. Bounded accuracy, to me, represents a system that destroys a core fundamental part of D&D. Which is definitionally not what you want in a system that is supposed to be about being as D&D as it is possible to be.
    Very true. Bounded Acc would fit reasonably well in a gritty / realistic RPG, where there are simply limits to how good you can realistically be as a human (e.g. Call of Chtulhu traditionally does use a 1-100 scale of BA), or in a parody / slapstick RPG, where the whole point is that everybody has a high chance of failing at everything (e.g. Paranoia traditionally uses a mechanic that makes even highly trained clones likely to mess up).
    Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.

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    Default Re: D&D 5th Edition X: Where's the Craft (RPG System) skill?

    Quote Originally Posted by noparlpf View Post
    So you're saying there's no level of competency between "I have no idea what that is" and "I'm already an expert"? And the mechanical difference is going to be fail vs. succeed, right?
    No, there's no level of difference between "I can do this" and "Dayum, I can do this in my sleep".

    Quote Originally Posted by Seerow View Post
    ahahaha

    *wipes tear from eye* wow that's great. There actually are intelligent people out there who honestly believe WotC is going to release more high level material beyond maybe some half-baked rules for getting an army.

    I'm sorry, but your optimism astounds me.
    I'm still optimistic
    There's an easily inferable system which handles the specific nature of all grievances. The question is whether or not it is just wishful thinking that they are using it. Benefit of the doubt and all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ozfer View Post
    I feel like I am going to have my mind changed for me very quickly if I say this, but...

    I just looked at what bounded accuracy is, and I think it's a really good idea. It balances the game world, allows the players to take greater risks, and makes designing monsters much easier.

    Now, I think this is a good idea, within the bounds of Dnd, which I kind of dislike anyway. I disagree with the hitpoints system altogether, but for Dnd sets out to do, I think bounded accuracy was a great idea. I always hated keeping track of peoples' massive attack bonuses anyway.
    I agree completely. I think the biggest complaints are
    1) it may be a working system, but it's not a D&D system
    2) it may work in theory, but the practice is terrible (but see #1)

    Most of the "this doesn't work what were they thinking!" is wrong, in that the system does exactly what it says it does. It just isn't satisfying.

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    Default Re: D&D 5th Edition X: Where's the Craft (RPG System) skill?

    Quote Originally Posted by Seerow View Post
    Dislike D&D, like bounded accuracy.


    Sounds like I couldn't have come up with a better argument against it if I tried. Bounded accuracy, to me, represents a system that destroys a core fundamental part of D&D. Which is definitionally not what you want in a system that is supposed to be about being as D&D as it is possible to be.
    Fair enough :). I still think it makes Dnd more fun for the players, since they can fight monsters that are stronger with them without it being literally, mathematically impossible, but if you want a system that follows the same principals as previous iterations, I can see why you would dislike it.

    I just hope people remember that sometimes, a systems core principles have to evolve a little to keep up with the times. Dnd is actually one of the most outdated commercially popular system that I know of.

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    Default Re: D&D 5th Edition X: Where's the Craft (RPG System) skill?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ozfer View Post
    Fair enough :). I still think it makes Dnd more fun for the players, since they can fight monsters that are stronger with them without it being literally, mathematically impossible, but if you want a system that follows the same principals as previous iterations, I can see why you would dislike it.

    I just hope people remember that sometimes, a systems core principles have to evolve a little to keep up with the times. Dnd is actually one of the most outdated commercially popular system that I know of.
    Evolving is one thing. I don't think the core conceit of "High level guys are immeasurably better than low level guys" is an outdated philosophy that needs to go. I see no reason why a group of level 1, or even 5 or 10 people should even be on the radar to a level 20 demon lord, or god, much less be meaningfully threatened by them.
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    Default Re: D&D 5th Edition X: Where's the Craft (RPG System) skill?

    Bounded Acc would fit reasonably well in a gritty / realistic RPG, where there are simply limits to how good you can realistically be as a human (e.g. Call of Chtulhu traditionally does use a 1-100 scale of BA), or in a parody / slapstick RPG, where the whole point is that everybody has a high chance of failing at everything (e.g. Paranoia traditionally uses a mechanic that makes even highly trained clones likely to mess up).
    I think the real problem is the combining of bounded accuracy in combat with bounded accuracy in skills. This all flows from WotCs insistence that 1d20 be used to resolve EVERYTHING. If skills and checks were resolved using a different system than D&D combat, I think both could have a form of bounded accuracy without feeling slapstick.

    I also wonder if it might be better of WotC heavily pushed the idea of "failing forward" to the DMs. Rather than thinking of skills as binary pass fail things, they should heavily encourage DMs to use failures as "meta-game" resources that come into play later. Rather than Conan v Tiny Tim being Tiny Tim outwrestled Conan, Conan still won, but the failure means something like "Tiny Tim is a cousin to the sherrif, who is overly protective of his crippled cousin and now will actively hinder the players." or failing a lock pick check doesn't mean the door doesn't open, it means you made a lot of noise doing it, or it took extra time and now there's another 1d6 goblins in the next encounter. Failing your craft roll (assuming there is one ) means that sword or shield you made has a minor flaw with a 1 in 10 chance of breaking at an inopportune time next battle. Or maybe you made something and the local smith thinks it's too close to one of his designs and you're trying to make forgeries of his work.

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    HalflingRangerGuy

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    Default Re: D&D 5th Edition X: Where's the Craft (RPG System) skill?

    Quote Originally Posted by Seerow View Post
    Evolving is one thing. I don't think the core conceit of "High level guys are immeasurably better than low level guys" is an outdated philosophy that needs to go. I see no reason why a group of level 1, or even 5 or 10 people should even be on the radar to a level 20 demon lord, or god, much less be meaningfully threatened by them.
    Well, I guess it just comes down to opinions, because I feel that even a really awesome fighter should feel threatened by 20 untrained guys (And really, they still aren't that much of a threat). Bounded accuracy really makes use of that bothersome, 'HP is abstract' philosophy.

    Again, it's all opinions at this point, as I have always hated how quickly characters go from regular people to demigods. I believe that if you are a regular person at level 1, you should a massively skilled person at level 20, but not untouchable. Being an invincible demigod should be something that is an option decided at the start of the game.

    In short, my version of Dnd isn't Dnd anymore.
    Last edited by Ozfer; 2013-05-21 at 10:14 AM.

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    Default Re: D&D 5th Edition X: Where's the Craft (RPG System) skill?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ozfer View Post
    Well, I guess it just comes down to opinions, because I feel that even a really awesome fighter should feel threatened by 20 untrained guys (And really, they still aren't that much of a threat). Bounded accuracy really makes use of that bothersome, 'HP is abstract' philosophy.

    Again, it's all opinions at this point, as I have always hated how quickly characters go from regular people to demigods. I believe that if you are a regular person at level 1, you should a massively skilled person at level 20, but not untouchable. Being an invincible demigod should be something that is an option decided at the start of the game.

    In short, my version of Dnd isn't Dnd anymore.
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    Default Re: D&D 5th Edition X: Where's the Craft (RPG System) skill?

    Quote Originally Posted by SiuiS
    Mm. We have differing ideas about what constitutes tacking it on. Usin a system specifically abstracted to handle these sorts of emergent quandaries, isn't (to me). Making a subsystem which is entirely new and thus doesn't jive with the aesthetic of the game or it's mechanics (which is what would have to happen to add it on but be different from skills or feats) is, in my etsimation, tacking it on.
    Using a system abstracted to represent a series of adventuring-related tasks like jumping, swimming, searching etc. in order to represent crafting feels like tacking it on, to me.

    Making a subsystem specifically abstracted to handle crafting doesn't.

    Saying it doesn't "jive with the aesthetic or mechanics" is assuming that feats and skills are a necessary, iconic part of D&D - which WotC have proven they feel isn't the case by making them optional, and other editions have proven by not having them.

    After all, I feel like if the internet was around like this when they were designing the 3e skill system, people would have had a similar argument. "Why come up with an entirely new subsystem to represent this? It's nothing like anything else in the game!"

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    Default Re: D&D 5th Edition X: Where's the Craft (RPG System) skill?

    Seeing as WotC seems to hate level-scaling and high level play, why don't they just make a Basic game? Put out their core rules as levels 1-4, keep that nice neat Bounded Accuracy / pickup-and-play feel they like, then make a new book with additional rules for every couple levels.

    Like maybe a way to show that your characters have become experts, or make their group of companions into epic heroes, or achieve mastery of your class, and cap it off with some way to become an immortal demigod. And for some reason I cannot identify, this concept seems vaguely familiar. Maybe even... Iconic.

    (In all seriousness, turning one $60 book into five $60 books while inherently accommodating different playstyles (maybe put noncombat Skills/NWPs into Expert or Companion, so people interested in simpler play can avoid them) and fulfilling their promise to be modular sounds like good business sense. Plus if they actually care about "uniting the fanbase," getting OSR players back is almost as important as re-hiring us Pathfinder fans).
    Last edited by Water_Bear; 2013-05-21 at 10:26 AM.

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    Default Re: D&D 5th Edition X: Where's the Craft (RPG System) skill?

    I think at this point, bounded accuracy isn't going away. It's going to be as much a feature of DnD Next, as feats and prestige classes were in 3.5, as was the AEDU system was in 5e. Love it or hate it, I think it's what is going to have to carry 5e; Advantage/Disadvantage just isn't deep enough.

    (The challenge is, of course, that for the people that hate bounded accuracy, there has to be something else in the system they love enough to put aside their hatred for bounded accuracy.)

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    Default Re: D&D 5th Edition X: Where's the Craft (RPG System) skill?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashdate View Post
    I think at this point, bounded accuracy isn't going away.
    Yeah, I think the Rubicon was crossed on that a year ago. Everything else in the system hinges on it at this point.

    While the implementation might end up terrible, it's at least trying to do something different in D&D. I can applaud that, at least.

    -O

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    Default Re: D&D 5th Edition X: Where's the Craft (RPG System) skill?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ozfer View Post
    In short, my version of Dnd isn't Dnd anymore.
    Psst. Check out my sig. Great games that just might be your version of D&D.

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    Default Re: D&D 5th Edition X: Where's the Craft (RPG System) skill?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhynn View Post
    Psst. Check out my sig. Great games that just might be your version of D&D.
    Thanks, but I just dislike DnD in general. Despite it being the only system I currently play . Sometimes I think the only reason Dnd is popular at all is convenience (It being the only RPG widely available in stores).

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    Default Re: D&D 5th Edition X: Where's the Craft (RPG System) skill?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashdate View Post
    I think at this point, bounded accuracy isn't going away. It's going to be as much a feature of DnD Next, as feats and prestige classes were in 3.5, as was the AEDU system was in 5e. Love it or hate it, I think it's what is going to have to carry 5e; Advantage/Disadvantage just isn't deep enough.
    You're probably right, but there's still a difference between the principle of bounded acc, and its current implementation in 5E. First, I think it could be improved by making the modifiers substantially bigger. And second, it was primarily intended for combat, so it is not a given that the same logic should apply to skills.
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    Default Re: D&D 5th Edition X: Where's the Craft (RPG System) skill?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ozfer View Post
    Thanks, but I just dislike DnD in general. Despite it being the only system I currently play . Sometimes I think the only reason Dnd is popular at all is convenience (It being the only RPG widely available in stores).
    Well hell, have you tried getting an Indie RPG off the Internet? There are cheap-to-play and free-to-play RPGs everywhere these days. Most are well-designed enough that even a total RPG novice can learn to play and run them within a session or two.

    There's even a thread about 'em on this very forum.

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