Can you eat a summoned mount?

[Gabe the Bard]

I know that summoned creatures usually vanish when they are killed, but what if a wizard or sorcerer summoned a mount and just nibbled on its leg? Would the meat disappear from his stomach before he could digest it? I guess the same question applies for a summon swarm spell. Rat burgers, anyone?

[Mastikator]

...just nibbled on it's leg? What kind of a wizard is this?

Anyway, if I DM'd the eaten part would be de-summoned when the mount is de-summoned. It would disappear after he'd disgested it too.

[paddyfool]

Very creative! Reminds me of traditional practices among the Masai of taking small pieces out of their (still living) cattle to eat sometimes, rather than slaughtering the whole cow. Or bleeding them, and mixing the blood with the cow's milk, for that matter.

A related question then becomes: can you milk, drain blood from, or extract venom from a summoned creature? The effects of poisoning done by summoned creatures aren't halted if the creature's desummoned, so I'd be tempted to say yes to all the above :) (Except possibly the rat from a swarm...)

[peacenlove]

Very creative! Reminds me of traditional practices among the Masai of taking small pieces out of their (still living) cattle to eat sometimes, rather than slaughtering the whole cow. Or bleeding them, and mixing the blood with the cow's milk, for that matter.

A related question then becomes: can you milk, drain blood from, or extract venom from a summoned creature? The effects of poisoning done by summoned creatures aren't halted if the creature's desummoned, so I'd be tempted to say yes to all the above :) (Except possibly the rat from a swarm...)

Theoretically you could but the summon monster duration is too short. while there is not any official rule of how much time does it take to extract poison from an animal, a common houserule is to merge the procedure with the craft (poisonmaking) skill, therefore 8 hours of work at minimum.
Draining blood (via attacking) is apparently ok. I would rule as a DM that the sustenance is filling but bland, just as a create food & water spell does.
Digesting meat takes a lot longer than 1-20 rounds so the question is moot. Should it take longer however, the correct answer is by RAW: undefined.

There are examples in D&D modules, specifically in the ghostwalk campaign setting, where summoned undead created spawn.

Language barriers may stop these practices, because you need to communicate effectively with the creature to order it to perform other actions.

[Joe the Rat]

It works with goats. Just remember to leave the bones intact and cover them with the whole goatskin, so they come back the next day.

Or whack 'em with a hammer. That works too sometimes.

[Zahhak]

While there is not any official rule of how much time does it take to extract poison from an animal, a common houserule is to merge the procedure with the craft (poisonmaking) skill, therefore 8 hours of work at minimum

And since it actually takes a few minutes to extract venom, we have a situation where RAW is bullcrap.

[Slipperychicken]

Sure, if you don't mind parts of your body vanishing along with the summoned creature once its duration runs out or it "dies". Also, you may be sickened/fatigued from your nourishment spontaneously disappearing from your body.


Create Food and Water is suitable for this purpose mainly because the food is truly created (not summoned), so it doesn't ever disappear; it just spoils after 24 hours, and you've had plenty of time to eat it before then.

[Gavinfoxx]

A repeating trap of Mount, with 8 or 9 hour duration, placed on a cart or wagon with various butcher's tools, is arguably one of the best things for feeding a town...

This assumes the bodies stay for the duration of the spell, even when the animal is dead.

[Slipperychicken]

A repeating trap of Mount, with 8 or 9 hour duration, placed on a cart or wagon with various butcher's tools, is arguably one of the best things for feeding a town...

This assumes the bodies stay for the duration of the spell, even when the animal is dead.

It doesn't work that way.

Summoning
A summoning spell instantly brings a creature or object to a place you designate. When the spell ends or is dispelled, a summoned creature is instantly sent back to where it came from, but a summoned object is not sent back unless the spell description specifically indicates this. A summoned creature also goes away if it is killed or if its hit points drop to 0 or lower. It is not really dead. It takes 24 hours for the creature to reform, during which time it can’t be summoned again.

When the spell that summoned a creature ends and the creature disappears, all the spells it has cast expire. A summoned creature cannot use any innate summoning abilities it may have, and it refuses to cast any spells that would cost it XP, or to use any spell-like abilities that would cost XP if they were spells.

[Icewraith]

I don't remember any language stating that things like vampire blood drain don't work on summoned, but otherwise eligible living creatures.

It seems clear that anything like poison, disease or ability drain the summoned creature does to you sticks around after it poofs.

Actually that's interesting. Are there any summonable creatures that normally spread disease?

[tasw]

I would rule that the meat, blood, whatever dissapears when the rest of the creature does. So whether you get any sustenance from it depends on the duration of the spell. Whatever your body can pull out of it in that time frame is what you get.

In theory I would also allow a succesful heal check to amputate a summons limb for eating without killing it.

[Gabe the Bard]

Summon Mount actually has a very long duration, 2 hours/level. I think that would be enough time to digest the meat, as long as you don't bite off enough to kill the mount. I'm just curious if you think that it should be allowed to count as real sustenance, or if you just "feel" like you ate something without actually being nourished.

I hadn't thought of poison use at all. I was actually thinking more along the lines of a "survival wizard" who can get by in the outdoors, far from civilization and if there isn't a cleric healer/caterer around. I guess you could also use Stone to Flesh in a pinch and get a big hunk of meat from a boulder, but that's a pretty high level spell to be using just to fill your stomach.

[Gabe the Bard]

I would rule that the meat, blood, whatever dissapears when the rest of the creature does. So whether you get any sustenance from it depends on the duration of the spell. Whatever your body can pull out of it in that time frame is what you get.

In theory I would also allow a succesful heal check to amputate a summons limb for eating without killing it.

That would be a pretty neat houseruled use of the heal or survival skill for an outdoorsy survival campaign. Hmmm.. (gears are turning...)

[TuggyNE]

Note that most, though not all, techniques for pulling this off are at least mildly evil acts, in all likelihood.

Masai-style bleeding is probably not too bad as long as you do it humanely, and there might be one or two other ways, but amputating a still-living creature's limbs to eat is pretty squicky.

[Mr Beer]

I would rule that the meat, blood, whatever dissapears when the rest of the creature does. So whether you get any sustenance from it depends on the duration of the spell. Whatever your body can pull out of it in that time frame is what you get.

This is my view as well. Use what you get off them, fine. Whatever is not used, goes.

[Slipperychicken]

Note that most, though not all, techniques for pulling this off are at least mildly evil acts, in all likelihood.

Torturing living creatures and eating pieces of them while they watch helplessly falls squarely into D&D's definition of Evil, especially if you won't even put them out of their misery, probably forcing them to live with severe PTSD and other stress and trauma-related illnesses.


It's disrespecting life and causing long-term despair/psychological trauma, which are two of the less-controversially Evil acts mentioned in BoVD.

[TuggyNE]

Torturing living creatures and eating pieces of them while they watch helplessly falls squarely into D&D's definition of Evil, especially if you won't even put them out of their misery, probably forcing them to live with severe PTSD and other stress and trauma-related illnesses.


It's disrespecting life and causing long-term despair/psychological trauma, which are two of the less-controversially Evil acts mentioned in BoVD.

That's why I said "at least", no?

[Slipperychicken]

That's why I said "at least", no?

That is true. One could make it less cruel by using some form of anesthesia or pain medication to minimize the pain/trauma inflicted.

If done well enough, the creature might be summoned, fall painlessly unconscious, then wake up unharmed (physically and mentally) on its home plane. Such would likely knock the act down to Neutral, or even Good if it spares the lives of other creatures.

[TuggyNE]

That is true. One could make it less cruel by using some form of anesthesia or pain medication to minimize the pain/trauma inflicted.

If done well enough, the creature might be summoned, fall painlessly unconscious, then wake up unharmed (physically and mentally) on its home plane. Such would likely knock the act down to Neutral, or even Good if it spares the lives of other creatures.

I don't know about Good, but yeah; humane partial butchering is basically the same as humane full butchering in morality, given that the animals in question aren't going to have to live with the results long-term.

(If someone from PETA shows up, I was never here.)

[peacenlove]

Note that most, though not all, techniques for pulling this off are at least mildly evil acts, in all likelihood.

Masai-style bleeding is probably not too bad as long as you do it humanely, and there might be one or two other ways, but amputating a still-living creature's limbs to eat is pretty squicky.

Summoned creatures are spell effects, not actual creatures. I could punch and torture a delayed blast fireball for as long as it satisfied me (well until it blew up on my face) and not even the least of all celestials would blink.

[Slipperychicken]

Summoned creatures are spell effects, not actual creatures. I could punch and torture a delayed blast fireball for as long as it satisfied me (well until it blew up on my face) and not even the least of all celestials would blink.

So what about the text saying Summoned creatures reform if killed, and are afterward sent back to the plane they came from?

[peacenlove]

So what about the text saying Summoned creatures reform if killed, and are afterward sent back to the plane they came from?

If it happens so, why don't they gain xp (and a large amount of it since their cr is way less than the typical encounter they are summoned to).

Anyway SRD states

Summoning

A summoning spell instantly brings a creature or object to a place you designate. When the spell ends or is dispelled, a summoned creature is instantly sent back to where it came from, but a summoned object is not sent back unless the spell description specifically indicates this. A summoned creature also goes away if it is killed or if its hit points drop to 0 or lower. It is not really dead. It takes 24 hours for the creature to reform, during which time it can’t be summoned again.

When the spell that summoned a creature ends and the creature disappears, all the spells it has cast expire. A summoned creature cannot use any innate summoning abilities it may have, and it refuses to cast any spells that would cost it XP, or to use any spell-like abilities that would cost XP if they were spells.

No / Vague mention is mentioned about planes. Since you bring a modified version of the creature anyway (Loss of abilities, can be enhanced with Augment summoning) and since it takes 24 hours to reform, they could be formed out of pure magical energy.

There is an entirely different spell category that deals with actual creatures and the calling thereof. Its the [calling] subschool. Otherwise all cults planewise would sacrifice summoned creatures to their dark masters, leading to supercharged clerics of undiluted evil. Not that they needed the help anyway...

[Slipperychicken]

Arguably, the Summoned Creature isn't risking anything while summoned because it can't die, so it doesn't get XP because it doesn't face a true "challenge" in that time.

No / Vague mention is mentioned about planes. Since you bring a modified version of the creature anyway (Loss of abilities, can be enhanced with Augment summoning) and since it takes 24 hours to reform, they could be formed out of pure magical energy.

If you want to houserule it this way, that's great, but it's not how the description is written. The SRD strongly implies that the creature exists both before and after the summoning.

The spell doesn't create the creature. Summoning says nothing about creating the creature, just transporting it.

A summoning spell instantly brings a creature or object to a place you designate.

Also, the creature isn't modified. It still possess all its normal abilities, but refuses to use XP-costing ones. As for disabled innate summoning abilities, I'd chalk it up to its connection to the plane being tenuous enough that it can't bring other creatures along, or that the same energy binding it to the plane "locks" all of its dimensional travel capabilities to keep it from just escaping.

[Zerter]

If you rule that the meat disappears, show me why poison or disease sticks around.

[tasw]

I wouldnt call anything you did to a summon as evil personally. Even under the BoVD definition it could be argued that since its some sort of extraplanar being its not really "living" its more of a spirit.

[LokiRagnarok]

Actually that's interesting. Are there any summonable creatures that normally spread disease?

Are you trying to replicate the Corrupted Blood Plague? :D

[peacenlove]

Arguably, the Summoned Creature isn't risking anything while summoned because it can't die, so it doesn't get XP because it doesn't face a true "challenge" in that time.

It can be still soul trapped, injected with a poison or affected with another ability that causes it to die after the summon spell is expired and it is transported to where it came, cursed, dominated and then scryed upon and so on. So yes it faces very real dangers. So it must gain XP. That is if it is a real creature.

Many rule problems appear with that spell so I cannot really agree or disagree with you Slipperychicken on the other points. For instance if the creature is dominated, does it still refuse to use XP draining abilities?

If you rule that the meat disappears, show me why poison or disease sticks around.

Disease is easy. Bacteria / viruses that rode with the creature but got left behind. They are independent of the organism so they stay after the spell wears off.
But really ruling it either way makes sense. The intend of the spell is that any effects of the creature should go away with the end of the spell. Now why they are spawn creating summons on official adventure beats me ...
Poison should go away but any ability damage/drain it caused should stay.

[Slipperychicken]

If you rule that the meat disappears, show me why poison or disease sticks around.

Disease isn't part of the creature. It's caused by microscopic organisms, chemicals, reactions, or particles distinct from the creature.

I've got nothing on the poison, though. It should disappear, but the damage it already caused would remain.

[Jacob.Tyr]

Disease isn't part of the creature. It's caused by microscopic organisms, chemicals, reactions, or particles distinct from the creature.

I've got nothing on the poison, though. It should disappear, but the damage it already caused would remain.

The fact that a summon could potentially cause disease seems wrong to me, since it implies that you're actually summoning more than just the creature designated. Summon doesn't say it brings a creature and all of it's microflaura to a location you've designated. If it doesn't, then the creature would die when it reformed without them on it's home plane. If it does, but they're left behind when the summoning ends (implied by diseases staying), then the creature will also probably die.


Thought puzzle: Summoning and the called entities microflaura, how does this interaction function? Do outsiders lack symbiotic bacteria and viruses? Can a summon spread disease if this is the case?

[Slipperychicken]

The fact that a summon could potentially cause disease seems wrong to me, since it implies that you're actually summoning more than just the creature designated. Summon doesn't say it brings a creature and all of it's microflaura to a location you've designated. If it doesn't, then the creature would die when it reformed without them on it's home plane. If it does, but they're left behind when the summoning ends (implied by diseases staying), then the creature will also probably die.

Neither does any teleportation or summoning effect. But then, I'm not sure if microorganisms are a thing in D&D.