How valuable is flight?

[Talakeal]

In my game i recently made a change that requires a character to spend several feats and skill points to make effective use of flight. The party mage complained that the flight spell was no longer worth it as the only real mechanical benefit to flight is a small ac boost for high ground, and thus i had robber her of an "iconic" mage ability which was vital from a flavor perspective.

I tried to argue that flight was a trmendous tactical boost as it allowed you to ignore all melee attacks from lanlocked foes, allowed a character to ignore most terrain and interposing enemies, and to simply bypass a good number of encounters and obstacles, but the player dismissed these as edge cases that would never come up in actual play.

So am i off base here? Is flight not all it is cracked up to be? How or how not?

[The Rose Dragon]

It is worth two power points per rank. That is the equivalent of a ranged damage effect, ranged move object effect, and a ranged affliction effect. The basic assumption is that most archetypes have a way of dealing with airborne enemies, whether that is their own ranged attacks, thrown objects, or requiring the flier to get close.

At least, that's how it's is in M&M, which is what I'm most familiar with. The answer changes wildly between systems and settings.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

You're right. AC boosts are the least powerful thing about flight in D&D.

The most powerful is the ability to get from point A to point B irregardless of terrain or obstacles.

[TheStranger]

Flight is a big deal. Unless all your adventures are indoors, there are tons of reasons to fly; getting over obstacles, getting a high vantage point to scout ahead, getting out of melee range, etc.

That said, I'm curious how you're going about nerfing flight. Once you can move freely in three dimensions, however slowly and clumsily, you can do most of the interesting out of combat things.

Finally, your player isn't necessarily wrong. While I'm usually in favor of hitting spellcasters with a nerf bat, it sounds like she had certain reasonable expectations based on the rules as she knew them. You're never wrong to houserule, but houserules should be explained well in advance and should make the game more fun. If you sprung your houserules on her and made the game less fun, she has some right to be upset.

[LibraryOgre]

Flight is valuable in inverse proportion to its availability.

[Chosen]

Depends on the situation honestly. Assuming you are talking about DND then it depends on the area the PCs are in. If you are outside or in an area similar to the mines of Moria from the LoTR movies then flight can be very powerful as it allows you have much superior mobility and also you can basically becomes immune to the standard brute monster such as dire tiger or grey render. However if you are in an area like a standard tunnel with short ceilings (like 6-7 feet) then flight doesn't help you.

[Mewtarthio]

I tried to argue that flight was a trmendous tactical boost as it allowed you to ignore all melee attacks from lanlocked foes, allowed a character to ignore most terrain and interposing enemies, and to simply bypass a good number of encounters and obstacles, but the player dismissed these as edge cases that would never come up in actual play.

"Edge cases"? Those things are literally the entire point of flight!

[Necroticplague]

Well, if you yourself are melee, flight is only a little bit useful. After all, even if you're above the enemy, that does little help if you're still wishhin reach. If you have some kind of extended reach or ranged attack of your own, it's a fair bit more useful, allowing you to safely take on melee enemies that can't fly from safety (Until they decide to start throwing things). Also allows you to get a better angle of attack for aiming AOEs or ignoring cover of unfavorable ground conditions, like thick mire and dense rubble.

Outside of combat, it is incredibly useful, rivaling only things like permanent invisibility and etherealness/incorporeality (which combines the last two+phasing through stuff). Ignore pressure plate traps, pits, ground based tripwires, the difficulties of cliffs, mountains, walls, and chasms.

[Morty]

Yeah. Flight tends to be quite valuable unless everyone has it - precisely because it lets you completely bypass obstacles and stay out of the reach of non-fliers. A chasm? Fly over it. A band of conveniently evil humanoids with pointed sticks? Fly over them. And so on.

[TheCountAlucard]

Depends on the splat. Lunars can just target a bird with the Sacred Hunt and take its shape, assuming that it doesn't have a flying warform in the first place. Dragon-Blooded can learn Dancing Ember Stride to fly, but it's limited; they have to remain within a fixed distance from a solid surface (meaning, among other things, no flight to cross a river). Solars and Abyssals have flight ceilings on their respective flight Charms. Really the best solutions are in artifacts, either personal-scale or airships, but even they get zapped by the gods for rising higher than a mile.

[Tengu_temp]

Iconic? Funny, I don't remember Gandalf or Merlin going "up up and away!" and flying off with one hand outstretched forward at any point.

The value of flight is highly dependant on what game you're playing, but since you're talking about skill points and feats, I assume this is DND 3e. And since in that game most heavy hitters fight in melee and flying renders you virtually invincible to their attacks... Yeah.

[The Rose Dragon]

Depends on the splat. Lunars can just target a bird with the Sacred Hunt and take its shape, assuming that it doesn't have a flying warform in the first place. Dragon-Blooded can learn Dancing Ember Stride to fly, but it's limited; they have to remain within a fixed distance from a solid surface (meaning, among other things, no flight to cross a river). Solars and Abyssals have flight ceilings on their respective flight Charms. Really the best solutions are in artifacts, either personal-scale or airships, but even they get zapped by the gods for rising higher than a mile.

That only answers how you can get flight, not how valuable it is. It is not that easy to counter unlimited flight in Exalted, but there isn't much of it either. It either limits your offensive options and can't keep you out of offensive range too easily without getting your opponents out of your offensive range. Out of combat uses remain valid, but if you are designing obstacles that can be circumvented with a single Athletics Charm, you probably need more flexibility in obstacle design.

[Talakeal]

Basically i am playing a low magic game and i found that buffs were dominating the game, so i put in a rule that a character could only have a number of buffs equal to their charisma bonus active at any given time, plus you can spend a feat (any number of time) to have an additional buff active.

Then i divided flight into three seperate spells. The first grants the abiity to glide and safe fall infinitely, the second level allows standard flight, and the third allows perfect maneuverability. Each level includes the previous levels, and thus standard flight requires two buff slots and perfect manueverbility three.

[Sith_Happens]

What level is each of those spells? That's the important part. Incidentally, perfect maneuverability is actually an upgrade from the regular Fly spell (which gives good).

[Friv]

I tried to argue that flight was a trmendous tactical boost as it allowed you to ignore all melee attacks from lanlocked foes, allowed a character to ignore most terrain and interposing enemies, and to simply bypass a good number of encounters and obstacles, but the player dismissed these as edge cases that would never come up in actual play.

As usual, your player is insane.

But hell, you might as well compromise with them and give them what they say they want. Let them change the first tier from "glide and fall safely" to "levitate safely".

They can safely levitate up to four feet off of the ground, and move at a slight bonus (say 40ft), allowing them to zip over minor obstacles without trouble and ignore difficult terrain, generally keeping the imagery of a flying mage, but still be within swording range and not be able to just ignore major obstacles. They also get the height advantage for free.

The two upgrades work as usual.

[Craft (Cheese)]

Iconic? Funny, I don't remember Gandalf or Merlin going "up up and away!" and flying off with one hand outstretched forward at any point.

I don't know about you, but when I think "Iconic D&D characters" I think "Order of the Stick." Casters in the comic fly around all the time (the main exceptions being Nale and Durkon).

[Talakeal]

What level is each of those spells? That's the important part. Incidentally, perfect maneuverability is actually an upgrade from the regular Fly spell (which gives good).

3, 4, and 5

[Lord Torath]

I'd say your Glide spell is way too high level. Featherfall is a 1st level spell, yes?

Murdock's Feathery Flyer (2E AD&D) is another 1st level spell that lets you glide 5' over for every 1' drop. (for 1 minute per level)

What's the ratio for your Glide Spell?

Edit: I agree with you, though, the being able to fly is incredibly valuable, and is way more valuable out of combat than in it.

[TheStranger]

3, 4, and 5

I'd drop each of those a level. Your low option is only slightly better than featherfall, and your high option is only slightly better than regular flight. They're already balanced by the buff counter, so I don't think you need to up the spell level as well.

[Talakeal]

I'd say your Glide spell is way too high level. Featherfall is a 1st level spell, yes?

Murdock's Feathery Flyer (2E AD&D) is another 1st level spell that lets you glide 5' over for every 1' drop. (for 1 minute per level)

What's the ratio for your Glide Spell?

Edit: I agree with you, though, the being able to fly is incredibly valuable, and is way more valuable out of combat than in it.

Well, it is certainly more powerful than feather fall, especially in that it lasts ten minutes per level rather than for a single drop. The only advantage feather fall has is the swift casting time.

The full effects of glide are:
High ground against land locked foes.
Immune to falling damage.
Double vertical jump distance.
Increase horizontal jump distance by a factor of ten.
Ignore flanking from land locked foes.
Can glide a very long distance if starting from an elevated point (exact range is determined by flying skill but will be at least ten times the vertical height and could be up to many miles)

[Killer Angel]

Yeah. Flight tends to be quite valuable unless everyone has it - .

IN this scenario, I would say it's even more valuable. You don't want to be the only non-flyer, when the rest of the world is flying above you.

[Sith_Happens]

I'd drop each of those a level. Your low option is only slightly better than featherfall, and your high option is only slightly better than regular flight. They're already balanced by the buff counter, so I don't think you need to up the spell level as well.

That, and at 2nd, 3rd, and 4th they trail nicely into Overland Flight, which is 5th.

As usual, your player is insane.

But hell, you might as well compromise with them and give them what they say they want. Let them change the first tier from "glide and fall safely" to "levitate safely".

They can safely levitate up to four feet off of the ground, and move at a slight bonus (say 40ft), allowing them to zip over minor obstacles without trouble and ignore difficult terrain, generally keeping the imagery of a flying mage, but still be within swording range and not be able to just ignore major obstacles. They also get the height advantage for free.

The two upgrades work as usual.

Halaster's Light Step (PGtF, 2nd level) does almost exactly this. 1 min./level, fly at your base land speed with good maneuverability, but can only move vertically while within 3 ft of a horizontal surface (so you can fly over chasms, but not walls).

[Tengu_temp]

I don't know about you, but when I think "Iconic D&D characters" I think "Order of the Stick." Casters in the comic fly around all the time (the main exceptions being Nale and Durkon).

Because DND invented wizards, and Order of the Stick invented DND.

[Fiery Diamond]

Because DND invented wizards, and Order of the Stick invented DND.

You do realize that "iconic" doesn't mean "original," right?

[Rhynn]

Flight is incredibly valuable. Just the ability to not have to walk around and through things can circumvent entire aventures. (Cf. the old "why didn't they just fly ring into the volcano?" thing, flawed as it is.)

What, exactly, was your party's mage using flight to do? Because IMO you listed all the uses of it and he dismissed them.

(Also, I hate your players, just so you know.)

Flight is valuable in inverse proportion to its availability.

True to a point, but if everyone else can fly then flight is, again, invaluable for any one individual - practically a requirement... flying is awesome if no one else can do it, but not flying is crippling if everyone else can do it.

So it's some kinda off-center parabola of usefulness I guess?

[Talakeal]

What, exactly, was your party's mage using flight to do? Because IMO you listed all the uses of it and he dismissed them.

Mostly float above the battlefield shouting "Cower before my ultimate arcane power" and shooting fireballs before being made a pin cushion by archers.

And skipping large sections of travel based adventures by refusing to come within a mile of the earth until arriving at the destination.

[Sith_Happens]

Mostly float above the battlefield shouting "Cower before my ultimate arcane power" and shooting fireballs before being made a pin cushion by archers.

And skipping large sections of travel based adventures by refusing to come within a mile of the earth until arriving at the destination.

So you're saying that one of your players referred to their standard operating procedure as an "edge case that would never come up in actual play?" That's just... Ugh.

[TuggyNE]

So you're saying that one of your players referred to their standard operating procedure as an "edge case that would never come up in actual play?" That's just... Ugh.

Like Rhynn (and everyone else of sound mind who has ever read any of your threads), I really really have a hard time not thinking your players would be a perfect match for Chief Circle. They're pretty terrible.

[TheOOB]

Flight along with teleportation, is a really tricky problem in D&D, as is any ability that allows characters to move in non-traditional ways(ie, movement forms other than walking, running, jumping, climbing ect).

Out of combat, easy access to flight eliminates a great deal of potential problems. Old rickety bridge, not a problem, giant wall, easy to get past, dangerous fire swamp, just fly over it. A great many physical obstacles are rendered moot if the players can just fly over them. If the system and the GM understands that flight will be common, prevalent, and easy(as it is in D&D 3rd), they can plan around that, and make obstacles and challenges which assume the capability to fly. But if the challenges assume flight and the players cannot fly, or they assume no flight and the players can, you have a problem.

In combat flight basically invalidates the melee abilities of anyone who can't fly. Once again, if flight was assumed, not a problem, you can make foes who can deal with flying players, but it can become a problem if one party has good air capability, and the other does not.

Basically, you, as the GM, need to decide how you want flight to work. Do you want players to have access to it or not. If you want flight to be less common in D&D 3.x, it's as easy as making Fly last 1 round/level and be at personal range(with similar changes to other flying abilities/items), meaning that flight is an occasionally used ability, not the norm.

I don't like OP's solution to the problem. You have to decide whether or not flight is common, safe, or useful. If you build the campaign assuming flight, but tax it heavily, you'll just make the players bitter, but if you build the campaign not assuming flight, you make it so anyone who spends the resources can just overcome challenges with no problem, and in either case you're restricting builds by making it so if players want to do what they expect, they have to spend significant character resources.

[Mr Beer]

Flight is awesome. I would make a one-time only offer to the player to take back any slots/points used for this ability and spend them elsewhere. Either they are being legitimately shortsighted and will soon regret their decision or they are simply trying to bully you into getting their way and will back off when you make the offer.