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Thread: Rogue 2.0

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    Ogre in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

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    Default Rogue 2.0

    I don't have much experience with design, and welcome criticism for this. My two goals for this are:
    1. to raise the rogue from tier 4 to tier 1 (in other words, at least give it the ability to compete with a wizard), and
    2. to make every level an awesome level to be a rogue.

    But before that, I have to talk about skills. In 3.x, the skill system is supposed to be the rogue's schtick, but it's completely broken and needs a major overhaul. But fixing the entire skill system is too large task to go into here, and there are already plenty of possible fixes, so I don't want to retread known ground. Basically. If you're using the 3.x skill system, the abilities presented below can be accepted without change. If you're using any other system, choose a bonus or other interesting use of the skill abilities that fits within your system.

    That said, there's one skill I'd like to change before I start, since I think it's both completely bonkers and closely tied with the rogue class: Sleight of Hand. The fact that a tiny-sized creature with +19 to Sleight of Hand can automatically steal a weapon larger than itself that their enemy is actually wielding at the time makes it absolutely silly, and would completely ruin any attempt at melee combat past level 7 or so if people played it by RAW. I don't think the basic idea of theft in combat is silly. It's actually pretty awesome and I like Final Fantasy games that allow that. But there need to be consequences past "I saw that!" Use this rule for pickpocketing instead.


    Rogue

    "I'm not cher daddy."

    Just as fighters spend years training whereas a barbarian just picks up an axe, a rogue is anyone who wants to be stealthy without spending a decade studying the techniques of the fluffy clan ninja style or finding enlightenment in a monastery. Rogues are expected to dodge attacks and magic, disappear into shadows, carry daggers, and totally stab people in the back, or the face, or the leg, or whatever really. Rogues and stabbing just go together.

    In terms of player skill, the rogue is closer to the Tome fighter than the thief-acrobat. He has a bunch of floating abilities at any one time and must choose how to best allocate them over the course of a round. Players who want something simple might prefer a thief-acrobat or ninja.

    Hit Die: d6
    Skill Points: 8+Int
    Class Skills: Appraise (Int), Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Int), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Forgery (Int), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (any) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Open Lock (Dex), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), Use Magic Device (Cha), and Use Rope (Dex)
    Alignment: Any
    Proficiencies: Rogues are proficient with all simple weapons, all light melee weapons, all ranged martial weapons, and the rapier. Rogues are proficient with light armor and light shields.

    {table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Abilities|Savvy Pool
    01|+1|+0|+2|+0|Deflection, Luck, Sneak Attack, Finesse, Trapfinding|1
    02|+2|+0|+3|+0|Combat Reflexes, Lightning Reflexes|2
    03|+3|+1|+3|+1|Blade Flick, Trap Sense, Underground Contacts (Locate Object)|3
    04|+4|+1|+4|+1|Reflexive Combat, Uncanny Dodge|4
    05|+5|+1|+4|+1|Find An Opening, Full Strip|5
    06|+6|+2|+5|+2|Shift, Double Jump|6
    07|+7|+2|+5|+2|Cover Me, Underground Contacts (Locate Creature)|7
    08|+8|+2|+6|+2|Disguise Surroundings (Seeming, Mirage Arcana), Improved Uncanny Dodge|8
    09|+9|+3|+6|+3|Gone Underground, Underground Contacts (Contact Other Plane)|9
    10|+10|+3|+7|+3|Out Of Sight, Special Ability|10
    11|+11|+3|+7|+3|Ingrain Muscle Memory, Disguise Surroundings (Veil)|12
    12|+12|+4|+8|+4|Special Ability|14
    13|+13|+4|+8|+4|Step Into Darkness|16
    14|+14|+4|+9|+4|Special Ability|18
    15|+15|+5|+9|+5|Disguise Surroundings (Screen), Underground Contacts (Discern Location)|20
    16|+16|+5|+10|+5|Special Ability|22
    17|+17|+5|+10|+5|Greater Shift|24
    18|+18|+6|+11|+6|Special Ability|26
    19|+19|+6|+11|+6|Shadow Revival|28
    20|+20|+6|+12|+6|Two Places At Once, Special Ability|30
    [/table]

    Spoiler
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    Savvy Pool (Ex): A rogue gains a pool of savvy points that represent the savviness he picks up just by staying alive. A rogue's savvy pool returns to max at the beginning of his turn.

    For purposes of prerequisites, a rogue is considered to have sneak attack equal to half his total savvy pool, rounded up. A Rogue who gains Sneak Attack dice from another class can exchange these dice for 2 Savvy points each. Feats that require a rogue to give up sneak attack dice instead require him to spend a point from his savvy pool per die sacrificed.

    Deflection (Ex): Whenever an enemy makes an attack against a rogue, the rogue can spend a point from his savvy pool to force that enemy to reroll his attack. The decision to use this ability must be made before damage is rolled. This is not an action.

    Luck (Ex): A rogue can spend a point from his savvy pool to reroll one roll he has just made. If he does, he cannot use the old result. This is not an action.

    Sneak Attack (Ex): As a free action, a rogue can spend a point from his savvy pool to gain sneak attack +1d6 until the start his next turn. This ability works as with the 3.5 rogue with one exception: creatures immune to critical hits or precision damage instead take half damage from a rogue's sneak attack. A rogue attacks a construct's mechanical weak point, dismembers undead, strikes a plant's roots, lacerates bizarre anatomy, or scoops out chunks of ooze. Multiple uses of this ability stack.

    A rogue can never have spend more than half his class level in savvy points, rounded up, on this ability.

    Finesse (Ex): When using a light weapon, rapier, or whip made for a creature of his size category, a rogue may use his Dexterity modifier instead of his Strength modifier on attack rolls. If he carries a shield, its armor check penalty applies to his attack rolls.

    Trapfinding (Ex): Rogues can use the Search skill to locate traps when the task has a Difficulty Class higher than 20.

    Finding a nonmagical trap has a DC of at least 20, or higher if it is well hidden. Finding a magic trap has a DC of 25 + the level of the spell used to create it.

    Rogues can use the Disable Device skill to disarm magic traps. A magic trap generally has a DC of 25 + the level of the spell used to create it.

    A rogue who beats a trap’s DC by 10 or more with a Disable Device check can study a trap, figure out how it works, and bypass it (with her party) without disarming it.

    Combat Reflexes (Ex): At 2nd level, a rogue can make a number of extra attacks of opportunity equal to his Dexterity bonus.

    Lightning Reflexes (Ex): At 2nd level, a rogue gains a +3 bonus to Reflex saves and Evasion. If he already has Evasion, this stacks to Improved Evasion.

    At 6th level, the rogue may make a Balance Check in place of his Reflex save.

    At 11th level, the rogue gains a +3 bonus to his Initiative.

    At 16th level, when the rogue takes the Full Defense Action, add his level to his AC.

    Blade Flick (Ex): At 3rd level, When using a weapon that Finesse applies to, a rogue adds his dexterity modifier to damage rolls.

    Trap Sense (Ex): At 3rd level, a rogue gains an intuitive sense that alerts him to danger from traps, giving him an insight bonus equal to half his class level (rounded down) on saves against trap effects and to his AC against attacks made by traps.

    Underground Contacts (Ex): At 3rd level, a rogue becomes known as a person who can find things. At the end of a Gather Information check, he can, as a standard action, mimic the effects of a single divination spell with caster level equal to his HD.

    At 3rd level, this ability allows him to mimic the effects of Locate Object.

    At 7th level, this ability allows him to mimic the effects of Locate Creature.

    At 9th level, this ability allows him to mimic the effects of Contact Other Plane.

    At 15th level, this ability allows him to mimic the effects of Discern Location.

    Reflexive Combat (Ex): At 4th level, as an immediate action, a rogue can spend a point from his savvy pool to make a roll as if he were making a reflex save. He may use the result as his AC for a number of rounds equal to his Base Attack Bonus. If he does, he cannot use this ability again until the duration has expired.

    While under this effect, the rogue's Touch AC becomes equal to his AC.

    Uncanny Dodge (Ex): Starting at 4th level, a rogue can react to danger before her senses would normally allow her to do so. She retains her Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if she is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, she still loses her Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized.

    If a rogue already has uncanny dodge from a different class she automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead.

    Find An Opening (Ex): At 5th level, whenever someone makes an attack roll that doesn't beat a rogue's AC, they are denied their dexterity bonus to AC against the rogue until the beginning of their next turn.

    Full Strip (Ex): At 5th level, the rogue can use pickpocketing any number of times as a standard action.

    Shift (Ex): At 6th level, a rogue can move with superhuman alacrity. As an immediate action, by spending a point from his savvy pool, the rogue gains an extra move action that must be used immediately.

    At 17th level, the rogue gains a standard action instead of a move action.

    Double Jump (Ex): At 6th level, a rogue can use bits of fluff in the surrounding space as a platform for jumps. The rogue can make jump checks even if he is not standing on anything that could support his weight. The DC for the jump check is 20 + 1 per previous attempt this turn. Success means the rogue can jump a distance determined by the result of his check. Yes, this means he can cancel falling damage by jumping before he reaches the ground.

    Cover Me (Ex): At 7th level, a rogue can use allies as cover. If he succeeds a hide check while using an ally as cover, he can stay hidden as long as the ally is visible or until he attacks. A rogue using this ability can have cover against and hide from one enemy even if another can see him.

    Disguise Surroundings (Ex): At 8th level, a rogue becomes a master of disguises. At the end of a disguise check, he can, as a standard action, mimic the effects of a single illusion spell with caster level equal to his HD. Instead of a saving throw, observers must succeed on a spot check opposed by the rogue's disguise check to see through the illusion.

    At 8th level, this ability allows him to mimic the effects of either Seeming or Mirage Arcana (chosen at the time the ability is used).

    At 11th level, this ability allows him to mimic the effects of Veil.

    At 15th level, this ability allows him to mimic the effects of Screen.

    Divination effects that see through illusions, like True Seeing, are ineffective against this ability. Creatures do not resume their normal appearance when slain.

    Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex): A rogue of 8th level or higher can no longer be flanked.

    This defense denies another rogue the ability to sneak attack the character by flanking her, unless the attacker has at least four more rogue levels than the target does.

    If a character already has uncanny dodge from a second class, the character automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead, and the levels from the classes that grant uncanny dodge stack to determine the minimum rogue level required to flank the character.

    Gone Underground (Ex): At 9th level, a rogue can't be found if he doesn't want to be. He is continuously protected from all devices, powers, and spells that reveal location.

    A rogue can voluntarily suppress this ability. Doing so is a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. Once a rogue suppresses the ability, it remains suppressed until the rogue's next turn. At the beginning of the rogue’s next turn, the protection automatically returns unless the rogue intentionally keeps it down (also a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity).

    The protection even foils bend reality, limited wish, miracle, reality revision, and wish when they are used to gain information about the rogue’s location. In the case of remote viewing or scrying that scans an area a rogue is in, the effect works, but the rogue simply isn't detected. Remote viewing or scrying attempts that are targeted specifically at the rogue do not work.

    Out Of Sight (Ex): At 10th level, a rogue can hide from anything. By spending a point from his savvy pool as a free action, the rogue gains the benefits of the Darkstalker feat against enemies of 3 HD or less until the beginning of his next turn. Multiple uses of this ability in one turn add 3 to the HD of creatures the rogue can hide from per savvy point spent.

    Ingrain Muscle Memory (Ex): At 11th level, a rogue can train his muscles to react even when his mind can't reach them. After 10 minutes of mental preparation, he can create a contingency. He chooses a single action that he can perform at the time of preparation (eg. use a skill, make an attack, activate a magic item), and sets the conditions for the contingency. He can use any of his rogue abilities that would normally be available as part of the chosen action (eg. hide and use Don't Blink). He can draw an object and use it as part of a contingency, but if he doesn't have the item on his person, or it takes longer than a move action to draw it, at the time the conditions are met, the chosen action is wasted. And he'll look pretty silly trying to get his dagger to cast Teleport.

    The conditions needed to bring the contingency into effect must be clear, although they can be general. In all cases, the contingency immediately brings into effect the chosen action, the latter being done instantaneously when the prescribed circumstances occur, even if the rogue would normally be unable to accomplish the action (eg. from being stunned, cowering, or dead). If complicated or convoluted conditions are prescribed, the chosen action may fail when called on. The chosen action occurs based solely on the stated conditions, regardless of whether you want it to.

    A contingency lasts for 1 day per level or until discharged. A rogue can only have one contingency created at a time.

    Step Into Darkness (Ex): At 13th level, a rogue learns how to walk the paths of darkness. Whenever he succeeds a Hide check, he can mimic the effects of Shadow Walk with caster level equal to his HD. The saving throw DC for this ability is 10 + 1/2 the rogue's HD + his Cha modifier. This is not an action.

    Shadow Revival (Ex): Shadow is not the opposite of light, merely it's absence. At 19th level, a rogue always comes back. If he is ever slain, his body dissolves within one round and begins reforming on the Plane of Shadow. The reforming takes 1d4 days to complete. In the meantime, the rogue's senses travel with an illusory double that acts like a Trickery Devotion duplicate that appears at the start of his next turn after his death in the place he died. He can continue using the duplicate until he dismisses it or it is destroyed. In either case, his senses return to his body after the duplicate is gone.

    Two Places At Once (Ex): At 20th level, a rogue can always have the perfect alibi. As a standard action, he can spend a point from his savvy pool to mimic the effects of Body Outside Body with caster level equal to his character level. He can dismiss the duplicates as a free action.

    Special Abilities
    On attaining 10th level, and at every other level thereafter (12th, 14th, 16th, 18th, and 20th), a rogue gains a special ability of his choice from among the following options.

    Don't Look For Me (Ex)
    Whenever the rogue is targeted by a device, power, spell or other effect that reveals location, he immediately becomes aware of the attempt, and may choose to send the creature who originated the effect a nightmarish vision. They must succeed on a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 the rogue's HD + his Cha modifier) to disbelieve the nightmare or die from fear.

    Mind Blank (Sp)
    The rogue is continuously protected by the Mind Blank spell.

    Slip Behind (Ex)
    Whenever someone makes an attack roll that doesn't beat the rogue's AC, they provoke an attack of opportunity from the rogue.

    Stab Essence (Ex)
    The rogue has learned how to attack the very essence of a person, resulting in wounds that cannot be healed normally. All damage dealt by a rogue is treated as though it were Vile damage for purposes of healing effects, and his attacks ignore damage reduction.

    Monetize (Sp)
    The rogue can steal souls for use as currency. He can use Soul Bind as a spell-like ability at will, with caster level equal to his HD and Will saving throw DC 10 + 1/2 the rogue's HD + his Cha modifier.

    Crippling Strike (Ex)
    A rogue with this ability can sneak attack opponents with such precision that her blows weaken and hamper them. An opponent damaged by one of her sneak attacks also takes 2 points of Strength damage. Ability points lost to damage return on their own at the rate of 1 point per day for each damaged ability.

    Defensive Roll (Ex)
    The rogue can roll with a potentially lethal blow to take less damage from it than she otherwise would. Once per day, when she would be reduced to 0 or fewer hit points by damage in combat (from a weapon or other blow, not a spell or special ability), the rogue can attempt to roll with the damage. To use this ability, the rogue must attempt a Reflex saving throw (DC = damage dealt). If the save succeeds, she takes only half damage from the blow; if it fails, she takes full damage. She must be aware of the attack and able to react to it in order to execute her defensive roll—if she is denied her Dexterity bonus to AC, she can’t use this ability. Since this effect would not normally allow a character to make a Reflex save for half damage, the rogue’s evasion ability does not apply to the defensive roll.

    Improved Evasion (Ex)
    This ability works like evasion, except that while the rogue still takes no damage on a successful Reflex saving throw against attacks henceforth she takes only half damage on a failed save. A helpless rogue does not gain the benefit of improved evasion.

    Opportunist (Ex)
    Once per round, the rogue can make an attack of opportunity against an opponent who has just been struck for damage in melee by another character. This attack counts as the rogue’s attack of opportunity for that round. Even a rogue with the Combat Reflexes feat can’t use the opportunist ability more than once per round.

    Skill Mastery
    The rogue becomes so certain in the use of certain skills that she can use them reliably even under adverse conditions.

    Upon gaining this ability, she selects a number of skills equal to 3 + her Intelligence modifier. When making a skill check with one of these skills, she may take 10 even if stress and distractions would normally prevent her from doing so. A rogue may gain this special ability multiple times, selecting additional skills for it to apply to each time.

    Feat
    A rogue may gain a bonus feat in place of a special ability.


    Scrapped Abilities, in case anyone's interested
    Spoiler
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    Don't Blink (Ex): At 6th level, whenever someone makes an attack roll that doesn't beat a rogue's AC or the rogue succeeds on a reflex save, the rogue may spend a point from his savvy pool to teleport a short distance, as though he had used Dimension Hop with caster level equal to his HD.

    Insight (Ex): As a free action, a rogue can spend a point from his savvy pool to add a +3 untyped bonus to the result of his next skill check. Multiple uses of this ability stack. If these savvy points are spent on a skill whose action is longer than 1 round, they do not return until the turn after the rogue has completed the action.

    This ability can be used with the following skills: Appraise, Autohypnosis, Balance (except when used with Lightning Reflexes), Bluff*, Climb, Concentration*, Control Shape, Craft, Decipher Script, Disable Device, Escape Artist*, Gather Information, Handle Animal*, Heal, Jump, Knowledge, Open Lock, Psicraft*, Profession, Ride, Search, Sense Motive*, Sleight of Hand, Spellcraft*, Survival, Swim, Tumble*, Truespeak, Use Magic Device, Use Psionic Device, and Use Rope*.

    *Except on opposed checks or checks with variable DC, eg. a Concentration check vs damage.

    Alpha Don't Blink (Ex): At 6th level, whenever the rogue succeeds on a hide check, he may spend a point from his savvy pool to teleport a short distance, as though he had used Dimension Hop with caster level equal to his HD.

    Slip Away (Ex): At 5th level, whenever someone makes an attack roll that doesn't beat the rogue's AC, the rogue can make a hide check. This is not an action.

    Hide in Plain Sight (Ex): At 8th level, a rogue can use the Hide skill even while being observed.

    Darkstalker (Ex): At 10th level, a rogue gains the benefits of the Darkstalker feat.

    Steal Buildings (Ex): At 17th level, the rogue can steal anything. As a standard action, by spending a point from his savvy pool, the rogue can steal an object of up to 10000 cu. ft. per level and everything in it. Creatures in the area can attempt a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 the rogue's HD + his Cha modifier) to resist the effect. To onlookers, the object appears to vanish. In actuality, the rogue stores it in a pocket of extradimensional space that follows him around, and functions for all effects like a portable hole. The weight of the object and its contents have no effect on the rogue's ability to steal them or his carrying capacity after he has done so. The rogue can withdraw the object anywhere there is enough space to do so as another standard action. A rogue can only use this ability on one object at a time.

    Dextrous Will (Ex): At 6th level, a rogue can make a Reflex save in place of a Will save. He can not substitute a Balance check for this save.

    change the 5th paragraph ("If you try to take something...") of the Sleight of Hand skill to the following:
    Pickpocketing
    If you try to take something from another creature, you must make a DC 20 Sleight of Hand check to obtain it. The item must be at least 2 sizes smaller than you. The opponent makes a Spot check to detect the attempt, opposed by the same Sleight of Hand check result you achieved when you tried to grab the item. Failing either the Sleight of Hand check or the opposed Spot check provokes an attack of opportunity by the person you're stealing from, and you are denied your dexterity bonus to AC against this attack, because your hands are in their pockets. Taking damage from this attack results in dropping the item.
    Last edited by rockdeworld; 2013-07-02 at 09:06 AM.
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    Titan in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Rogue 2.0

    To make the rogue equal to a wizard, you clearly need 9th level spells.
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    Default Re: Rogue 2.0

    1) Kudos on the Doctor Who reference
    2) Either change the Souls are Cash and Dark Revival, or change the alignment to non-good. I can't imagine a good rogue (like Robin Hood) doing either
    3) Being completely honest, this is Tier 3 AT BEST. You need magic to enter the top tiers. Contingency might be able to bump it up to Tier 2, but you aren't getting Tier 1 without 9th level spells.
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    Default Re: Rogue 2.0

    Tiers are not based on power, but versatility. A level x warrior with good gear and an antimagic field centered on him would be able to easily beat level x wizards, that doesn't make him tier 1. If anything, it probably makes him tier 6, since he can under no circumstances use magic.

    The only way to be tier 1 is to have equivilant effects to all spells at the appropriate level a wizard gets them, for example. It doesn't technically NEED to be magical, but have fun explaining non-magical wish effects or creating your own personal demiplanes.

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    Default Re: Rogue 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by Yora View Post
    To make the rogue equal to a wizard, you clearly need 9th level spells.
    Or equivalent.

    Quote Originally Posted by Omnicrat View Post
    Tiers are not based on power, but versatility.
    This is true of the difference between tier 1 and 2, and between 3 and 4. It is not true of the difference between tiers 1/2, 3/4, 5, and 6.

    A level x warrior with good gear and an antimagic field centered on him would be able to easily beat level x wizards
    No, because they could evade him until the antimagic field runs out. A better analogy would be a class that has permanent immunity to hostile magic and enough ranged and magical-defense-bypassing capability to at least chase wizards away...and while that wouldn't be tier 1, it probably would implode the tier system if it were otherwise weak enough to lose to a tier 3-5.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Rogue 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by Yitzi View Post
    This is true of the difference between tier 1 and 2, and between 3 and 4. It is not true of the difference between tiers 1/2, 3/4, 5, and 6.
    How is it not? Capable of nothing is still a measure of versatility.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yitzi View Post
    No, because they could evade him until the antimagic field runs out. A better analogy would be a class that has permanent immunity to hostile magic and enough ranged and magical-defense-bypassing capability to at least chase wizards away...and while that wouldn't be tier 1, it probably would implode the tier system if it were otherwise weak enough to lose to a tier 3-5.
    No, I was saying he somehow had a permanent anti-magic field centered on him, maybe its a race or something.

    Also, I said it would probably be tier 6, because it would loose any ability to use magic or have magic used for its benefit. It would be very bad at anything.

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    Default Re: Rogue 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by rockdeworld View Post
    That said, there's one skill I'd like to change before I start, since I think it's both completely bonkers and closely tied with the rogue class: Sleight of Hand. The fact that a tiny-sized creature with +19 to Sleight of Hand can automatically steal a weapon larger than itself that their enemy is actually wielding at the time makes it absolutely silly, and would completely ruin any attempt at melee combat past level 7 or so if people played it by RAW. I don't think the basic idea of theft in combat is silly. It's actually pretty awesome and I like Final Fantasy games that allow that. But there need to be consequences past "I saw that!" So change the 5th paragraph ("If you try to take something...") of the Sleight of Hand skill to the following:
    Let's call a spade a spade here. +19 Sleight of Hand is absolutely silly. Go ahead and let the Reduced Person halfling disarm anyone.

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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: Rogue 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by DMMike View Post
    Let's call a spade a spade here. +19 Sleight of Hand is absolutely silly. Go ahead and let the Reduced Person halfling disarm anyone.
    +19 equates to 10 ranks + 3 dex + 2 synergy + 2 deft hands + 2 masterwork item (or replace the last 2 with a +4 magic item for 1600gp, or +4 dex + 3 skill focus) and is absolutely feasible at level 7.

    Edit: but thanks for replying to something I wrote after the first paragraph. I'm not sure anyone else actually read the OP. Except Razanir, mostly.

    "Either change the Souls are Cash and Dark Revival, or change the alignment to non-good. I can't imagine a good rogue (like Robin Hood) doing either"
    Soul Bind is necromancy but not evil, and using it on an evil person could presumably be a good thing. OTOH, I have no problem changing it if you can think of another good 17th level ability for the rogue, because honestly I can't. I added that ability to give the rogue free access into the Wish economy, but obviously not everyone uses that economy in their games so it's not necessary. But I can't think of any other problem this rogue can't solve at level 17.

    For the other one, Dark =/= evil. If you can think of a better name, I'll use it.
    Last edited by rockdeworld; 2013-06-10 at 08:22 PM.
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    Default Re: Rogue 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by Omnicrat View Post
    Tiers are not based on power, but versatility. A level x warrior with good gear and an antimagic field centered on him would be able to easily beat level x wizards, that doesn't make him tier 1.
    But the Wizard is wearing is wearing a person-sized tin cone under the effect of a permanent shrink item. He also has a contingent teleport set to activate upon being within the area of an antimagic field.

    Quote Originally Posted by Omnicrat View Post
    The only way to be tier 1 is to have equivilant effects to all spells at the appropriate level a wizard gets them, for example. It doesn't technically NEED to be magical, but have fun explaining non-magical wish effects or creating your own personal demiplanes.
    This is very true.
    To make a rogue tier 1, it would have to cease to be a rogue.

    Details on tier system:
    Spoiler
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    Found this on the internet:
    Spoiler
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    Tier 6: A cartographer.
    Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
    Tier 4: An expert marksman.
    Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
    Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
    Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.


    More simply:
    Spoiler
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    Tier 6: Average—Has some skill in one mundane area.
    Tier 5: Skilled—Has some skill in an advanced skill, or has a lot of a mundane skill.
    Tier 4: Trained—Has a lot of skill in an advanced skill.
    Tier 3: General expert—Has a lot of skill in many advanced areas.
    Tier 2: Master—Has mastered one skill, or maybe even two.
    Tier 1: Batman—Has mastered everything.


    Even simpler:
    Spoiler
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    Tier 6: Commoner
    Tier 5: Fighter
    Tier 4: Rogue
    Tier 3: Factotum
    Tier 2: Sorcerer
    Tier 1: Wizard


    Read the intro of this, the original and widely accepted tier system.



    That said, I find this rather interesting.


    Pssssstttt! Yeah, you! Letting the rogue steal the oversized weapon in combat makes it closer to tier 2!
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    Default Re: Rogue 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by Zweisteine View Post
    To make a rogue tier 1, it would have to cease to be a rogue.
    Even simpler:
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    Tier 6: Commoner
    Tier 5: Fighter
    Tier 4: Rogue
    Tier 3: Factotum
    Tier 2: Sorcerer
    Tier 1: Wizard
    There's a logical flaw in that argument: you've defined rogue as tier 4, but tier 4 is an observation, not definition of the rogue.

    And this conversation is very far removed from actually discussing the rogue put forth in the OP. I ask that you either bring it back to the ground or move it to another thread.
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    Default Re: Rogue 2.0

    Yeah, sorry about that... I was going to actually attempt to review it, but I got distracted by the tier discussion. I'll edit my review into here.

    At my preliminary glance, I have a few suggestions.
    1. Even if it follows the pattern of the basic rogue, you should include base attack bonus, saves, etc. into the table. It seems like a good idea to add a separate column (at the right) for savvy points.
    2. Nonactions are not used for things that are done, as far as I know. The SRD describes nonactions as being part of other actions, not actions in and of themselves. As a matter of fact, the SRD uses the term "not an action," not once saying "nonaction." Activating abilities should always take at least a free action (a nonaction would be more like activating Power Attack: "when you do X, you may do Y aspart of X").
    3. When you say "as the 3.5 rogue," you should actually repeat the rules text (copy/paste from SRD). That way, nobody has to do much checking, and it's easier to check overall.

    And now I realize I didn't actually compliment this...

    This does look pretty cool. I'm a bit too hurried to give much more detail, though...
    Last edited by Zweisteine; 2013-06-10 at 08:58 PM.
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    Default Re: Rogue 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by Zweisteine View Post
    Yeah, sorry about that... I was going to actually attempt to review it, but I got distracted by the tier discussion. I'll edit my review into here.
    Thanks Zweisteine

    1. Done.
    2. 3 of the nonactions are so listed because they're a part of another action (using a skill, rerolling a roll), and I've clarified that. Changed the last one.
    3. Done.
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    Default Re: Rogue 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by Omnicrat View Post
    Also, I said it would probably be tier 6, because it would loose any ability to use magic or have magic used for its benefit. It would be very bad at anything.
    It would be good at beating tier 1. If an otherwise tier 6 can beat an otherwise tier 1, I think that would essentially implode the tier system.

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    Default Re: Rogue 2.0

    Er...no? That's not how the Tier system works. :l

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    Default Re: Rogue 2.0

    I'm sure there's some side-bets going on how many times people can use Tier incorrectly before it's cited.

    http://www.brilliantgameologists.com.../?topic=1002.0



    This is essentially what you think it should look like then?

    Because you can totally make a batman class.

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    If you want the tier arguments to stop, change the line at the top about this being tier 1 meaning it can compete with the wizard. That's not how tiers work.

    The basics of 3.5 (skill system induced) are based around 5th level being the best anyone can possibly be in the real world. That someone focusing a lot on slight of hand can steal a sword someone was just trying to hit them with from their opponent is not ridiculous for being two whole levels beyond the best real human ever.

    The complexity of this class is sort of counter to your fluff of "you just sort of pick it up as you go." Just my opinion, though.

    You have the Rouge title through proficiencies twice.

    Can deflection be used more than once on the same roll? Luck?

    Can underground contact use all 4 of its bonuses at the end of a single gather information check, or does the rouge have to pick one?

    Is don't blink actual teleportation or is it just a similar effect? Also, you said whenever twice in it.

    Wait a second, you let a 7th level rouge survive a fall from orbit, but you thought the slight of hand rules were ridiculous?

    A 9th level ability that is more powerful that a wish?

    Does a rouges contingency stack with a contingency spell?

    Again, is step into darkness magical or mundane?

    So, a rouge has infinite soulbinds?

    Again, infinite body outside body?

    Alright, not tier 1, but definitely overpowered. VERY overpowered. I'm not totally sure what tier it should be, but since the rouge can't make a demiplane from his will, not tier 1. MAYBE tier 2, but regardless of any of that, it is way overpowered.

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    Default Re: Rogue 2.0

    People, shush about the tiers now!!!
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    Default Re: Rogue 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
    Er...no? That's not how the Tier system works. :l
    It's not how the tier system works because there is not in fact a class that loses to tier 5 but beats tier 1. If there were, then tier 1 would no longer be superior, so there would be no real tier system. It would be more like rock-paper-scissors.

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    Default Re: Rogue 2.0

    Thanks for the reply Omnicrat. You raised some good points and I want to reply:
    -If you want the tier arguments to stop, change the line at the top about this being tier 1 meaning it can compete with the wizard. That's not how tiers work.
    That's exactly how tiers work. In theory, all the tier 1 classes can compete with each other without one significantly overpowering the other, and they can cooperate without one significantly overshadowing the other. The wizard is tier 1, and if another class can't solve the same problems as a wizard, it doesn't belong in the same tier. In JaronK's original post he said he made the tier system "To help homebrewers judge the power and balance of their new classes. Pick a Tier you think your class should be in, and when you've made your class compare it to the rest of the Tier."

    -That someone focusing a lot on slight of hand can steal a sword someone was just trying to hit them with from their opponent is not ridiculous for being two whole levels beyond the best real human ever.
    1. That's not even focusing on SoH, it could just be picking it up with a bunch of other skills and then buying a magic item to pump it a bit.
    2. Of course it's not ridiculous that they can steal a sword from someone, unless it's bigger than they are. Yuffie never stole Cloud's BFS (arguably it wasn't worth that much), and no one imagined she could. I don't think anyone imagines it's actually possible for someone short of Superman to even fight with that sword. And it breaks the game when someone like Yuffie can totally do that. IMO, it's bad design to have a mechanic that automatically ends melee combats when half your classes are based around melee combat.

    Granted I'm applying this just to small- creatures, and D&D 3.5 still runs perfectly fine as long as everyone uses medium+ size weapons. The rules change is so that those small or smaller creatures can use sleight of hand in a way that isn't broken, and so that large+ creatures can use it at all.

    -You have the Rouge title through proficiencies twice.
    Fixed, thanks.

    -Can deflection be used more than once on the same roll? Luck?
    Yes and yes.

    -Can underground contact use all 4 of its bonuses at the end of a single gather information check, or does the rouge have to pick one?
    You have to pick one, because they're all standard actions

    -Is don't blink actual teleportation or is it just a similar effect? Also, you said whenever twice in it.
    Fixed the whenever, thanks. It's a teleportation effect like it says it is.

    -Wait a second, you let a 7th level rouge survive a fall from orbit, but you thought the slight of hand rules were ridiculous?
    Yes, I thought an ability that a 1st level wizard has wouldn't be broken on a 7th level rogue, but that an ability that breaks the game should be changed.

    -A 9th level ability that is more powerful that a wish?
    Go read Nondetection and then come back if you still think this is overpowered. It's in fact modeled directly off the Ithillid Slayer's Cerebral Blind, a 10th level ability.

    -Does a rouges contingency stack with a contingency spell?
    Sure, why not.

    -Again, is step into darkness magical or mundane?
    Mundane, since it's an (Ex) ability. What do you mean again?

    -So, a rouge has infinite soulbinds?
    Yes. What is your point? Have you ever seen a game broken by Soul Bind? More to the point: have you ever seen Soul Bind used?

    -Again, infinite body outside body?
    Yes. It's level 20 and doesn't really matter.
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    Default Re: Rogue 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by rockdeworld View Post
    I don't have much experience with design, and welcome criticism for this. My two goals for this are:
    1. to raise the rogue from tier 4 to tier 1 (in other words, give it the ability to compete with a wizard), and
    2. to make every level an awesome level to be a rogue.
    Let me give you some advice then: Tier 1 is not necessarily the best goal to aim for when homebrewing. A party full of optimized tier-1 classes can be difficult for the GM to plan encounters for, and every conflict very rapidly devolves into rocket-tag.

    Also, the traditional classes that have tier-1 capability need not always be that powerful. You can make a wizard or cleric that plays like a lower tier class by relying on blasting and healing spells; whereas if you try to force a character to always act at the tier-1 limit, most people will be turned off by it's apparent OP-ness. If overall balance is your intent, then a combination of buffing lower classes and nerfing the OP ones tends to create an improved system.

    Your second goal (to make a full run of the rogue desirable, instead of just as a dip) would be a better and more realistic option, IMO.

    Quote Originally Posted by Omnicrat View Post
    Tiers are not based on power, but versatility.
    Reply spoilered to avoid thread derailment.
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    My understanding was that it was based on both. Tier 3 is the "good at one thing, decent at most" level, in other words the lowest reasonably versatile tier. The Tier 1's are better at EVERYTHING they try than the lower-tier classes, and can do ANYTHING at ANY time.
    A tier 2 can be just as good as a tier 1 if given a specific task, but they lack the ability to change up on the fly. Tiers 4 and 3 share much the same relationship, at least as far as I understand it.


    Quote Originally Posted by rockdeworld View Post
    Edit: but thanks for replying to something I wrote after the first paragraph. I'm not sure anyone else actually read the OP. Except Razanir, mostly.
    I'll try to do a more thorough evaluation later, when I finish reading everything and have had some time to process it. The savvy mechanic looks interesting, though regaining the points every round and seeing how high they stack....makes me a little trepidatious.

    For the other one, Dark =/= evil. If you can think of a better name, I'll use it.
    Shadow Revival is the only thing that springs to mind. If you need to fluff it, use my favorite line "Shadow is not the opposite of light, merely it's absence" which can be taken several different ways.

    Given how much specialized vocabulary D&D tends to need, I often find thesaurus.com to be a very helpful tool.
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    Default Re: Rogue 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by rockdeworld View Post
    This ability works as with the 3.5 rogue with one exception: creatures immune to critical hits or precision damage instead take half damage from a rogue's sneak attack.
    Yay, this! Making SA less useless without having to abuse UMD is a big plus. Kudos to you, sir.

    The Savvy Pool is a nice touch, although many of the published Tome classes don't have resource management systems of any kind. This may put them a teensy bit above this, but that shouldn't be considered a bad thing to me. As much as I like the Fighter and Barbarian, Foil Action (for the fighter) and the discriminating AMF cone (for the Barbarian) are particularly dicey given their unlimited usage. The Tome Samurai's Cut Magic can probably be thrown in there too, although not quite to the same extent. Anywho, I'm not good enough at mathematics to really be the judge on whether the number of Savvy points given is enough or not.

    I am a little bit saddened by the number of class features that essentially replicate spells. There is nothing wrong with this strategy per se, but it gets kind of old for me after a while. That said, I totally understand why it is a viable strategy because I am sitting here trying to think of alternatives and can't come up with anything.

    I think if you want to encourage rogues to take Combat feats and the like, assuming the use of Tome rules of course, you could use the Rogue Special Abilities to fold all of the feats that require the forgoing of Sneak Attack dice into the class itself. This gives you more content (and control over the interpretation of these abilities) and allows you to explicitly integrate Savvy points with these abilities. This could also be a chance to add rider effects like hamstringing an opponent or creating bleeding wounds to a Sneak Attack. More ways to use that other than just dealing damage would be a nice bonus.

    Quote Originally Posted by Omnicrat View Post
    Tiers are not based on power, but versatility. A level x warrior with good gear and an antimagic field centered on him would be able to easily beat level x wizards, that doesn't make him tier 1. If anything, it probably makes him tier 6, since he can under no circumstances use magic.

    The only way to be tier 1 is to have equivilant effects to all spells at the appropriate level a wizard gets them, for example. It doesn't technically NEED to be magical, but have fun explaining non-magical wish effects or creating your own personal demiplanes.
    AMF requires a minimum of an 11th level caster to put it on themselves, so I can only imagine it would be a similar level or higher in order to put it on a character that's not a caster. That said, given how AMF doesn't discriminate (unless you are the Tome Barbarian, of course) and only has a 10 foot radius, an equivalent level wizard can just move outside the radius and fly, proceeding to kite the warrior (who presumably lacks flight courtesy of being inside an antimagic field) until he dies. Unless the warrior goes all closet-troll on the wizard and gets up close and personal AND has a way to hold him down, the wizard can probably still win handily. Not to mention the fact that the warrior is incapable of producing the AMF of his own accord, so any victory he has will not be of his own doing, in effect preventing him from being a higher rank.

    Quote Originally Posted by Omnicrat View Post
    Can underground contact use all 4 of its bonuses at the end of a single gather information check, or does the rouge have to pick one?
    Based on how I read it, the use of any of them is a standard action, so it's still only one per turn and per check.

    Quote Originally Posted by Omnicrat View Post
    Wait a second, you let a 7th level rouge survive a fall from orbit, but you thought the slight of hand rules were ridiculous?
    Feather fall lets you survive a fall from orbit at level 3, causing you to be OK in an extremely situational happenstance. Sleight of Hand breaks the D&D combat system, which is what about 90% of the rules are written to address. Also, "rogue" please (I'm a grammar Nazi, I can't help it).

    Quote Originally Posted by Omnicrat View Post
    Does a rouges contingency stack with a contingency spell?
    As much as I shudder at the use of "rouge" again, this is a pretty important point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Omnicrat View Post
    So, a rouge has infinite soulbinds?

    Again, infinite body outside body?

    Alright, not tier 1, but definitely overpowered. VERY overpowered. I'm not totally sure what tier it should be, but since the rouge can't make a demiplane from his will, not tier 1. MAYBE tier 2, but regardless of any of that, it is way overpowered.
    Overpowered is such a relative term that I don't even think it should apply here. At level 20, pretty much every Tier 1 class (I don't favor the Tier terminology especially given the arguments that have already transpired, but in this case it is kind of necessary to use) has equivalent power to a demi-god. Overpowered compared to a monk/samurai/healbot? Perhaps, given that those classes are absolutely god-awful in every sense. But this is something that is supposed to compete with the Tome Fighter/Barbarian, Wizard, and CoDzilla. So giving soul binds and body outside body at levels 17 and 20 is pretty much not that big of a deal as far as I am concerned.
    Last edited by Cidolfas; 2013-06-11 at 10:32 AM.
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    Default Re: Rogue 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by Yitzi View Post
    It's not how the tier system works because there is not in fact a class that loses to tier 5 but beats tier 1. If there were, then tier 1 would no longer be superior, so there would be no real tier system. It would be more like rock-paper-scissors.
    Err...no. Tiers are defined by how they interact with the world, not other classes.
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    Default Re: Rogue 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by Yitzi View Post
    It's not how the tier system works because there is not in fact a class that loses to tier 5 but beats tier 1. If there were, then tier 1 would no longer be superior, so there would be no real tier system. It would be more like rock-paper-scissors.
    Tiers are defined by how they overcome obstacles, solve problems, and interact with the adventure placed before them, not how they fair in PvP. :/ This isn't Smash Bros Tiers.

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    Default Re: Rogue 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by http://www.brilliantgameologists.com/boards/?topic=1002.0
    Tier 1: Capable of doing absolutely everything, often better than classes that specialize in that thing. Often capable of solving encounters with a single mechanical ability and little thought from the player. Has world changing powers at high levels. These guys, if played well, can break a campaign and can be very hard to challenge without extreme DM fiat, especially if Tier 3s and below are in the party.

    Examples: Wizard, Cleric, Druid, Archivist, Artificer, Erudite
    You guys can bicker about the semantics of what tiers mean for as long as you want, but that will never change what the OP actually meant.

    K, so creating a mundane class that can compete with a wizard, that is to say superman can TURN BACK TIME, but batman has a solution for everything and can easily kill superman at any time due to his utility belt.

    So, what makes a batman?

    Actually this is probably closer to a factotum than rogue, but the deciding factor is resources, you pretty much want to be able to have a way better version of Shax's Haversack, as an advancement built into the class.

    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148101

    Batman picked up the leadership feat because it's OP, and he has his butler as a follower. The computer systems in the newer games with the HUD would probably be better in this case, AA proved that batman can function very well as a detective theme focusing on intel and it's effectiveness.

    Artificer might be a good take on this, being an inventor, possibly using a system similar to the Iron Man class that recently came out.

    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=258113


    Any way you slice it, the rogue archetype, using anything even remotely similar to the rogue's mechanics are not going to be tier 1, and almost assured not tier 2 (but I'm not clever enough to call that for sure).

    This means you're not going to have a tier1 rogue, it wouldn't be a rogue.

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    Default Re: Rogue 2.0

    I really hate when people use the not PvP, or environment, argument. It's too flawed to even feasibly make a valid point with. A + B does not always = C. For example, I could just as easily make this statement:
    Wizards and Fighters both fight the same monsters and need to make it past the same obstacles. Therefore they should be able to fight these monsters, and beat these obstacles, with the same level of success. Consequently balancing them to each other is the quickest, and most elegant, way to do this.
    Whether or not my statement above is accurate, or not, is mostly irrelevant. It is just as accurate, or inaccurate, as the PvP argument. Because of the similarities, between them, disputing either also requires you to disagree with the other to maintain logical consistency.

    Besides that I'm going to preempt arguments this point often brings up or leads to:

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    People also often fail to realize that each tier is a natural delineation of power and utility. Regardless of which tier you support they all follow certain structures and guidelines.
    Exiting these norms results in either a great idea lauded for innovation or a bad idea shunned for unbalance; with the latter being more common among the two. And even innovative ideas tend to to follow this delineation.

    A tier 5 class that beats a tier 1 more than even half of the time is definitely broken, because by it's very nature it would have to retain the utility of a tier 5 and exceed the power of tier 1 to do so. Otherwise it is no longer tier 5.
    Even well-built tier 3 mage slayers, that specialize in fighting tier 1's, are more on even playing grounds than actually superior.

    Now, I'm fully aware of the theory of balanced unbalance, which I unfortunately forget the actual name of.
    It basically states if things are too balanced then a game is no longer fun because it feels like "more of the same", hence part of the reason why so many people disliked 4e and, to the contrary, LoL is so popular. But when other players feel useless this theory doesn't apply any longer.

    Some of these misconceptions, and others, are often drawn, by some people, from the fact that they assume WotC had a certain point of balance in mind. It is much more likely they were concerned about representing the archetype, as presented in fantasy movies and novels, than actual balance.

    Another point of misinterpretation is the assumption that players, or the DM, will play fair, or supply situations a character can contribute to, and that justifies gaps in power.
    Game testing needs to either be tested in a 'vacuum,' without the predisposition of groups factoring in, or, as with scientific testing, throughout a variety of groups. Any assumption that claims a group, or DM, will always fit your standards is willful ignorance.
    Last edited by eftexar; 2013-06-11 at 05:46 PM.

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    Default Re: Rogue 2.0

    I'll come back and post more in-depthed when I'm more awake, but just to clarify a point: I was calling this class over powered due to the savvy pool and the deflection and luck abilities. Makes every hit, succeed every check, and never let them touch you.

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    Default Re: Rogue 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by Zelkon View Post
    Err...no. Tiers are defined by how they interact with the world, not other classes.
    The world is made up of people, who each have classes

    Quote Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
    Tiers are defined by how they overcome obstacles, solve problems, and interact with the adventure placed before them, not how they fair in PvP. :/ This isn't Smash Bros Tiers.
    And if your party is all tier 1s and a good anticaster class exists, a smart enemy Big Bad will send anticasters against you. That's an obstacle and a problem that wizards can't handle, but fighters can.
    Last edited by Yitzi; 2013-06-11 at 08:40 PM.

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    Default Re: Rogue 2.0

    And if your party is all tier 1s and a good anticaster class exists, a smart enemy Big Bad will send anticasters against you. That's an obstacle and a problem that wizards can't handle, but fighters can.
    Invoke Magic. Can we move on and get back on topic?

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    Default Re: Rogue 2.0

    Ok...tier 1 requires both high versatility (up to and including the ability to shut down abilities explicitly designed to counter it, e.g. using Invoke Magic to handle antimagic, plus the ability to swap out options on a relatively short notice) and high power (i.e. the ability to do other classes' stuff as well as they do if not better and have abilities that are close to irresistible by most if not all enemies.)

    Now, I'm not so sure that the rogue archetype can't do that; if any nonmagical class can pull it off, it'll be something in the general area of the rogue. But it'll take a lot more than what you have here.

    Some things that might help if you want to actually make the rogue tier 1:
    -Flexible skill points. A wizard is tier 1 rather than 2 because he can change his spells each day; the tier 1 rogue can move around his skill points with a similarly low effort.
    -Ways to abuse skills. Diplomacy and Bluff already have substantial potential in this area, but could probably be given more stuff (or even large numerical bonuses to help that way). Hide might help too, if you give him an unconditional Hide in Plain Sight and enough bonus to avoid even spot-based summons (and of course immunity to blindsight, blindsense, and all magical means of detection.)
    -Some way to imitate everything a wizard or cleric can do. A nice large boost to UMD could help here, particularly if combined with a stronger version of the Pathfinder Chronicler's Deep Pockets ability.

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    Default Re: Rogue 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by Yitzi View Post
    Some things that might help if you want to actually make the rogue tier 1:
    -Flexible skill points. A wizard is tier 1 rather than 2 because he can change his spells each day; the tier 1 rogue can move around his skill points with a similarly low effort.
    -Ways to abuse skills. Diplomacy and Bluff already have substantial potential in this area, but could probably be given more stuff (or even large numerical bonuses to help that way). Hide might help too, if you give him an unconditional Hide in Plain Sight and enough bonus to avoid even spot-based summons (and of course immunity to blindsight, blindsense, and all magical means of detection.)
    -Some way to imitate everything a wizard or cleric can do. A nice large boost to UMD could help here, particularly if combined with a stronger version of the Pathfinder Chronicler's Deep Pockets ability.
    Another suggestion if you want to build it this way would be creating some mechanics for what can be done with souls yourself. As in, anyone can do these things if they have access to souls, like soul-splicing (that's what it was called, right?) from OotS with your powerful souls, burning the lesser ones up as fuel for spell effects, stuff like that.

    Quote Originally Posted by rockdeworld View Post
    Thanks for the reply Omnicrat. You raised some good points and I want to reply:
    -If you want the tier arguments to stop, change the line at the top about this being tier 1 meaning it can compete with the wizard. That's not how tiers work.
    That's exactly how tiers work. In theory, all the tier 1 classes can compete with each other without one significantly overpowering the other, and they can cooperate without one significantly overshadowing the other. The wizard is tier 1, and if another class can't solve the same problems as a wizard, it doesn't belong in the same tier. In JaronK's original post he said he made the tier system "To help homebrewers judge the power and balance of their new classes. Pick a Tier you think your class should be in, and when you've made your class compare it to the rest of the Tier."
    That's one way of interpreting the tier system, but a large part of it is versatility. This rogue can do a lot, but it can't create a demiplane. It can't use true resurrection on the king. It can't create a hero's feats or summon allies. If you just take out the part about tier 1 you'll be fine.

    Quote Originally Posted by rockdeworld View Post
    -That someone focusing a lot on slight of hand can steal a sword someone was just trying to hit them with from their opponent is not ridiculous for being two whole levels beyond the best real human ever.
    1. That's not even focusing on SoH, it could just be picking it up with a bunch of other skills and then buying a magic item to pump it a bit.
    2. Of course it's not ridiculous that they can steal a sword from someone, unless it's bigger than they are. Yuffie never stole Cloud's BFS (arguably it wasn't worth that much), and no one imagined she could. I don't think anyone imagines it's actually possible for someone short of Superman to even fight with that sword. And it breaks the game when someone like Yuffie can totally do that. IMO, it's bad design to have a mechanic that automatically ends melee combats when half your classes are based around melee combat.

    Granted I'm applying this just to small- creatures, and D&D 3.5 still runs perfectly fine as long as everyone uses medium+ size weapons. The rules change is so that those small or smaller creatures can use sleight of hand in a way that isn't broken, and so that large+ creatures can use it at all.
    You are trying to make a tier 1 class and you took away a non-sensical and overpowered ability. Not exactly the right direction for tier 1. Joking aside, the rouge with a generic disarm effect is better than a rogue without it. Perhaps fluff it that the weapon is no longer in anyone's possession?

    Quote Originally Posted by rockdeworld View Post
    -Can deflection be used more than once on the same roll? Luck?
    Yes and yes.
    So, a high level rogue with anything better than the worst luck ever should always roll 20s and his opponents should always roll 1s?

    -Is don't blink actual teleportation or is it just a similar effect? Also, you said whenever twice in it.
    Fixed the whenever, thanks. It's a teleportation effect like it says it is.[/QUOTE]

    I feel like this would be better if you made it not actual teleportation somehow. Burst of speed or something. That's just me, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by rockdeworld View Post
    -Wait a second, you let a 7th level rouge survive a fall from orbit, but you thought the slight of hand rules were ridiculous?
    Yes, I thought an ability that a 1st level wizard has wouldn't be broken on a 7th level rogue, but that an ability that breaks the game should be changed.
    Eh, not quite the same as featherfall, and this is better, but I guess its not too much better.

    -A 9th level ability that is more powerful that a wish?
    Go read Nondetection and then come back if you still think this is overpowered. It's in fact modeled directly off the Ithillid Slayer's Cerebral Blind, a 10th level ability.[/QUOTE]

    I don't no why you told me to read nondetection, because this is SUBSTANTIALLY more powerful than that. Also, its implied that an illithid slayer has at least one level in a manifesting class, none of which get you to +4 bab at level 4 unless I am forgetting something. Just a small comment against that balance. Still, its as part of a very focused prestige class, it has a power that it specifically says works against it, and one must be psionically focused for it to work. With your ability: it is part of a very broad class that can do almost anything with its savvy pool, seems to be defeated by nothing whatsoever, and is always active no matter what. Just because an ability is balanced at a certain level in another class (especially if its a prestige class) doesn't mean its balanced around that level in every possible class. Especially not when its made better.

    Quote Originally Posted by rockdeworld View Post
    -Again, is step into darkness magical or mundane?
    Mundane, since it's an (Ex) ability. What do you mean again?
    Don't blink... which I just noticed is also (Ex)... so forget about my earlier complaint.

    Quote Originally Posted by rockdeworld View Post
    -So, a rouge has infinite soulbinds?
    Yes. What is your point? Have you ever seen a game broken by Soul Bind? More to the point: have you ever seen Soul Bind used?
    No, just checking. But, if you are going to use it, this could get out of hand fast. Spend a whole day collecting the souls of commoners...

    Quote Originally Posted by rockdeworld View Post
    -Again, infinite body outside body?
    Yes. It's level 20 and doesn't really matter.
    Again, just checking. However, saying ballance attempts do not matter at level 20 is folly. If that were true, why not make the capstone immortality and spellcasting of a 20th level wizard and cleric?

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