For Science! The Bristol Experiment OOC

[Dozen]

If I recall correctly, Moochava used two Genii using the different versions of the Prostasia rules as an example of how the Axioms are, fluff-wise, not as uniform as they appear in the current rules. So there's no need to retcon anything.

Oh. Does that mean I can build mental shields then?

In any case, I have a rough text ready for my next post. I'll wait for Jeremy to reply to Kitbasher's invitation. Also, updated my sheet to include aesthetics and faults.

[Doran]

Hi all,

Unfortunately I must resign from the position of Storyteller. I'm really sorry to do this, as the adventure proper hasn't even started yet. However it's become increasing clear to me in the last few weeks that I have to attend to my illness. I feel it would be better to tell you all now rather than to continue struggling and not giving the game the attention it deserves.

If a replacement ST pms me, I'm fine to give my notes on the continuing story arc. In addition Exthalion has a Genius character ready to be introduced with wonders.

Apologies,

doran

[LPlate]

That's a pity but your health obviously has to come first. Hope you get better soon.

[Dozen]

In that case, we shouldn't just sit around, waiting for something to happen! Time to seek an ST, ASAP. I'm starting the reqruitment thread.

EDIT:I did. I'll admit though, I have no high hopes for this, as the Playground isn't exactly pro-WoD. If you know a free Storyteller personally or a site where World of Darkness fans are more prevalent, you should ask them.

[MugaSofer]

Woah. I stop checking the thread for a couple days ... My sympathies, Doran.

I can probably shift some things around and fond time to ST this if I really have to; so consider me the reserve ST if we can't find anybody else.

But let's find somebody else.

EDIT: thanks for putting up the recruitment page, Dozen; I'll photocopy it into a couple other places, just to maximize our chances.

[IamL]

Sorry, guys...I would ST, but I don't know the system too well. Would you be willing to take on another player?
So I was thinking of doing somebody whose basic stats would look kinda like this:
Mental (primary)
Resolve: 3
Wits: 1
Intelligence: 5 (the +1 goes here)
Physical (secondary):
Strength: 1
Dexterity: 2
Stamina: 4
Social (tertiary)
Manipulation: 1
Prescence: 1
Composure: 4
My guy would either be a Director or Navigator. His backstory would be like this:
He was a famous general, known for his coolheaded, careful decisions, and his ability to create weapons out of nowhere. He was accaimed, until the incident.
He had bt one major fault: pride. Well-deserved pride, but pride nonetheless. He was constantly seeking challenges, deliberately stacking the odds against himself. But that turned out to nearly be his downfall. He was caught between eight armies, and, after being forced out of the city his army was holing up, his lack of speed in formulating a plan marked his end, when he was over-run. He was nearly killed by a bulet to the head, and, as he lay there, bleeding to death, a brilliant plan sprung from his mind unbidden, not his first taste of Mania, but certainly his largest before that. He outmanuevered the armies, and was doing okay. That is, until a journalist asked him how he managed to do it. He went insane trying to figure out exactly what gave him the idea, which was incredibly ingenious, even for him. He progressed slowly into madness from there, being honorably discharged from the army for psychological damage.

Sound kinda good for a rough sketch? I know I don't have a lot of details ironed out, but I was wondering what you guys would think about taking another nut case on.

[Dozen]

*snip*
... I was wondering what you guys would think about taking another nut case on.

We're numerous enough as it is, but on the flipside, somebody will presumably lose their patience and leave the table, so chances are, by the time the new ST arrives there will be a spot for you. Second worst case scenario, the groups splits into two smaller ones.*shrug*

[IamL]

We're numerous enough as it is, but on the flipside, somebody will presumably lose their patience and leave the table, so chances are, by the time the new ST arrives there will be a spot for you. Second worst case scenario, the groups splits into two smaller ones.*shrug*

Okay. Got it. Thanks!
(stupid ten character requirement. Making me sound redundant.)
EDIT: Was wondering what you thought of my concept.

[LPlate]

Concept seems fine. Hopefully you'll get to use it. This campaign seems to have survived this long because new people kept taking on the role of ST. I'll probably bump Dozen's recruitment thread tomorrow if it doesn't get bumped in the mean time.

[IamL]

Concept seems fine. Hopefully you'll get to use it. This campaign seems to have survived this long because new people kept taking on the role of ST. I'll probably bump Dozen's recruitment thread tomorrow if it doesn't get bumped in the mean time.

Thanks.
So I'm debating between Staunen and Grimm. Advice? Which do you think would work better?
(sorry for all the questions, I'm pretty much a n00b when it comes to WoD stuff.)
EDIT: Also, do I create the character at the party's current experience points? If so, what would that be?

[ocel]

Well, don't expect me to leave anytime soon, 'cause I'm here to see this thing through.

How about we decide to have MugaSofer as our gm for the time being?

[Dozen]

óI'll probably bump Dozen's recruitment thread tomorrow if it doesn't get bumped in the mean time.

Why, thank you.

Thanks.
So I'm debating between Staunen and Grimm. Advice? Which do you think would work better?

So far, we have one Grimm, one and a half Hoffnungs, one Klagen, half Staunen, four unknown. Barter is either Hoffnung, Klagen, or Neid. I'll make the wild guess and say Cousto is Hoffnung or Staunen. Neid would explain the acute bursts of nausea I feel whenever Maximillian opens his mouth; then again, his chosen name could suggest a tragic case of Hoffnungian Narcissism or destructive tendencies.

Moving on, Tiresias can make weapons already. So can Jeremy. I plan to pick up both Apokalypsi and Katastrofi later, myself. That would leave us with four to eight Katastrofi scientists prestent, while only two to six Apokalypsi scientists, with a lower probability on the latter, and there is a chance Tiresias might leave. We clearly lack recon, go with Staunen.

How about we decide to have MugaSofer as our gm for the time being?

Yeah, put me down as undecided on that one. Tir and Jeremy are the only characters I like so far, and I don't want to come up with a better reason as to why did Ambrose pick this collaborative over the rest in Bristol, if I can help it.

[IamL]

So far, we have one Grimm, one and a half Hoffnungs, one Klagen, half Staunen, four unknown. Barter is either Hoffnung, Klagen, or Neid. I'll make the wild guess and say Cousto is Hoffnung or Staunen. Neid would explain the acute bursts of nausea I feel whenever Maximillian opens his mouth; then again, his chosen name could suggest a tragic case of Hoffnungian Narcissism or destructive tendencies.

Moving on, Tiresias can make weapons already. So can Jeremy. I plan to pick up both Apokalypsi and Katastrofi later, myself. That would leave us with four to eight Katastrofi scientists prestent, while only two to six Apokalypsi scientists, with a lower probability on the latter, and there is a chance Tiresias might leave. We clearly lack recon, go with Staunen.

Ok, thanks! Still wondering about experience, though.

[LPlate]

Newbies started with 50 xp at the start of the current thread.

[IamL]

Newbies started with 50 xp at the start of the current thread.

Okay. Thanks!

[IamL]

How's This looking so far? Did I mess anything up too badly? I haven't done weapons, wonders, or descriptions yet, but I'll figure that out later.

[MugaSofer]

You settled on Staunen, then?

It looks pretty good. However; a few things I would suggest tweaking:

Wits, Strength, Presence and Manipulation all at 1? 1 is really bad, as low as a score can go in a functioning human.

You may want to spread out those Skills a bit more? I'm not sure. (Also I just noticed you only filled in one Specialty.)

I, personally, will never allow anyone to possess Apokalypsi 5 in my game. Of course, this isn't my game; but it really is broken, so whatever ST we end up with may object to your possessing an "I win" wonder.

Oh, and Katastrofi 1 is nonlethal, I'm not sure if you intended that.

[Dozen]

Newbies started with 50 xp at the start of the current thread.

55. And the three we got from posts. Don't confuse the newbie with silliness.

[IamL]

You settled on Staunen, then?

It looks pretty good. However; a few things I would suggest tweaking:

Wits, Strength, Presence and Manipulation all at 1? 1 is really bad, as low as a score can go in a functioning human.

You may want to spread out those Skills a bit more? I'm not sure. (Also I just noticed you only filled in one Specialty.)

I, personally, will never allow anyone to possess Apokalypsi 5 in my game. Of course, this isn't my game; but it really is broken, so whatever ST we end up with may object to your possessing an "I win" wonder.

Oh, and Katastrofi 1 is nonlethal, I'm not sure if you intended that.

1. Yup. I kinda figured, but my guy is a slow planner, and relies more on toughness and figuring things out in the long run, so...dunno.
2. Meh. I usually like a character with really distinct strengths and weaknesses.
3. hrm...dunno. Haven't looked too much at specific wonders yet; I just like the idea of being an expert at recon, since he's really big into tactics and military stuff. (insert G.I. Joe face here): Knowing is half the battle! Could you point out some of them that are broken? (speaking as a total noob to this system.)
4. Since I get another five points, I'm gonna invest them in Katastrofi.

[DukeGod]

Maximillian is a Hoffnung to answer to earlier speculation XD

[Dozen]

1. Yup. I kinda figured, but my guy is a slow planner, and relies more on toughness and figuring things out in the long run, so...dunno.
2. Meh. I usually like a character with really distinct strengths and weaknesses.
3. hrm...dunno. Haven't looked too much at specific wonders yet; I just like the idea of being an expert at recon, since he's really big into tactics and military stuff. (insert G.I. Joe face here): Knowing is half the battle! Could you point out some of them that are broken? (speaking as a total noob to this system.)
4. Since I get another five points, I'm gonna invest them in Katastrofi.

Invest? Good heavens, guys, do I really have to play the Klagen for you IRL too? Unless those present save for me all happen to be allergic to rulebooks as it appears, feel free to point out when someone messes up for a change.

IamL, your sheet is so above the limit, I can't decide to laugh or cry. Assuming optimal arrangement at start, you've spent almost double the XP you're allowed to spend ONLY on your Axioms. Overall, you are at a 78 point surplus. Use the table on page 87 to arrange your stats, not your gut instinct. 'New dots' mean the new amount of dots, not new number of dots. Your four dots in Encyclopedic Knowledge alone cost 20(as in, 2+4+6+8), if you spent your merit dots on Inspiration, which you should, since it's way cheaper.

Maximillian is a Hoffnung to answer to earlier speculation XD

Then he might find out in the near future what I meant by 'tragic'. Umm, no offense to your real self.

[IamL]

Invest? Good heavens, guys, do I really have to play the Klagen for you IRL too? Unless those present save for me all happen to be allergic to rulebooks as it appears, feel free to point out when someone messes up for a change.

IamL, your sheet is so above the limit, I can't decide to laugh or cry. Assuming optimal arrangement at start, you've spent almost double the XP you're allowed to spend ONLY on your Axioms. Overall, you are at a 78 point surplus. Use the table on page 87 to arrange your stats, not your gut instinct. 'New dots' mean the new amount of dots, not new number of dots. Your four dots in Encyclopedic Knowledge alone cost 20(as in, 2+4+6+8), if you spent your merit dots on Inspiration, which you should, since it's way cheaper.\

OHHHH... new AMOUNT of dots, not number of dots ADDED... I thought there was somethin' wrong. Thanks!
Also, Encyclopedic Knowledge and Eiditic Memory both have to be taken at the beginning of character creation.

[Dozen]

Also, Encyclopedic Knowledge and Eiditic Memory both have to be taken at the beginning of character creation.

Yeah, and? Put them on the sheet first. You're creating your character now, ain'tcha?

[IamL]

Yeah, and? Put them on the sheet first. You're creating your character now, ain'tcha?

...I kinda assumed it meant with starting dots, but you know the system more than me, I suppose.
Anyhow, still wondering why apokalypsi five is broken. As said previously, I don't know the system very well, so I was wondering if you could give some examples.

[DukeGod]

...I kinda assumed it meant with starting dots, but you know the system more than me, I suppose.
Anyhow, still wondering why apokalypsi five is broken. As said previously, I don't know the system very well, so I was wondering if you could give some examples.

Apokalypsi 5 is "The GM tells you anything you wanna know" pretty much

[IamL]

Apokalypsi 5 is "The GM tells you anything you wanna know" pretty much

Ah. So, like, omniscience. Which would be freaking awesome, but yeah, I can see that being broken.

EDIT: so, if I had apokalypsi 3 through starting dots, apokalypsi five would cost...45 dots?

[Dozen]

EDIT: so, if I had apokalypsi 3 through starting dots, apokalypsi five would cost...45 dots?

Yes.

Ah. So, like, omniscience. Which would be freaking awesome, but yeah, I can see that being broken.

MugaSofer is overreacting though. If mere selective omniscience could break a campaign (as opposed to omnipresent omniscience which sadly does) D&D games would fall apart when the party's diviner gets her first third level spells.

Players employing divination need tremendous practice to use their power effectively. Oftentimes, the questions they ask are simple, straightforward, and foremost, painfully predictable - thus easily blocked or corrupted by direct(attacking the source itself) or indirect(by targeting their own target) means. Hell, even if they are beyond that limitiation, for every genius who could, in a vacuum, know everything, it's reasonable to assume there is at least three less well-learned but more flexible genii who have a reasonable chance to prevent him actually from doing so.

In D&D, this is achieved through Abjurations, Enchantments, and to a lower extent, Transmutations and Illusions, as well as some Conjurations if you're smart with Contingent Spells.

In G:tT, Epikrato, Katastrofi and Prostasia wonders do a number on Apokalypsi detection, well before the level at which it achieves access to all knowledge, easily self-protected by such kindergarten level trick questions like 'Show me all which could prevent me from knowing everything' or 'what endangers me?' and so on. I have some wonders planned to prevent the party of becoming the victims of such, in fact. When you're so small time, it's doubtful whoever mastered Apokalypsi has any interest in you - you can hole up in a metaphorical bunker(hmm, that's actually a pretty good idea in game) before he has any idea you exist. A single Prostasia wonder in one world could block every information about any or all information of the same person, intentionally or not(backstory idea, everyone, take notes!). Later on, Skafoi 5 or Metatropi 4 can be employed for more effective, though indirect, defenses.

He could ask who will become a threat to him later in life of course, but to our luck, the time stream is such a tangled, incomprehensible mess thanks to literally infinite number of wonders, orphans and manes f*cking it up left and right, questions regarding the future of genii which have in infinite realities tore infinite holes into the universe as we know it will hardly bring any useful information to begin with. The sad fact is that, Inspiration is so unpredictable even by Inspiration, that not even the "omniscient" Apokalypsi masters can comprehend it, or they'd know how it works by now. Who was detected as some random Neid who would clean your toilet one day could be predicted to become your greatest enemy moments later by the same wonder, only to die in the following six seconds, as long as Mania is in any way involved in the matter. This isn't just speculation, this is Science.

Let's use the textbook example.

Spoiler

Show

Genius A is a violent, unseemly person who uses a wonder to predict if 'he wins the majoral election' of a small town., Say, a population of 30.000. He is devastatingly unpopular, thus the answer is no. Enraged, he uses Katastrofi wonders he already had to subdue the population. In fear of his potent weapons, the citizens promise vote for Genius A. Answers to the prediction following this event are 'yes', even though by all accounts the wonder should have seen this coming - This can only make sense if the wonder only had information from the Present to work with; clearly glimpses into the Future are impossible in this instance. This is because, while the detector can recognize a wonder and it's functions, it can't tell you why it works or how effective it will be, since Mania to our current knowledge is not decipherable by itself, or anything else. If he only had sufficient mundane weapons and skill rather than mad science inventions, the answer could have been 'yes' originally, the mundane is reasonably foreseeable.

Moving on, if he was subtle enough in his endeavor to intimidate MMs around him, Genius A is safe and sound in his new office a short time later. Let's presume he wasn't. Genius B heard of Genius A's upcoming tyrannical rule, and used his knowledge in Epikrato to prevent him from winning by instilling spite and defiance in the voters(most likely Political Domination). While Genius A did try to predict if someone would stop him, he did so before Mania was involved, not after, therefore he had no idea of Genius B's plans. The answer yet again changes to 'no', and Genius A loses before he had a chance to react to the new enemy.

In conclusion,
1. Your Future is very likely already protected
2. Predicting your Future based on Present information doesn't achieve anything for the same reason
3. If you can't protect yourself in the Present, nobody cares, that's how it's supposed to work
4. If you can, then there's no problem.

The very fact which allows such people to exist prevents their powers from achieving their apparent potential. So don't sweat about Apokalypsi so much. Be smart about it, you can beat them just fine.

[IamL]

Yes.




MugaSofer is overreacting though. If mere selective omniscience could break a campaign (as opposed to omnipresent omniscience which sadly does) D&D games would fall apart when the party's diviner gets her first third level spells.

Players employing divination need tremendous practice to use their power effectively. Oftentimes, the questions they ask are simple, straightforward, and foremost, painfully predictable - thus easily blocked or corrupted by direct(attacking the source itself) or indirect(by targeting their own target) means. Hell, even if they are beyond that limitiation, for every genius who could, in a vacuum, know everything, it's reasonable to assume there is at least three less well-learned but more flexible genii who have a reasonable chance to prevent him actually from doing so.

In D&D, this is achieved through Abjurations, Enchantments, and to a lower extent, Transmutations and Illusions, as well as some Conjurations if you're smart with Contingent Spells.

In G:tT, Epikrato, Katastrofi and Prostasia wonders do a number on Apokalypsi detection, well before the level at which it achieves access to all knowledge, easily self-protected by such kindergarten level trick questions like 'Show me all which could prevent me from knowing everything' or 'what endangers me?' and so on. I have some wonders planned to prevent the party of becoming the victims of such, in fact. When you're so small time, it's doubtful whoever mastered Apokalypsi has any interest in you - you can hole up in a metaphorical bunker(hmm, that's actually a pretty good idea in game) before he has any idea you exist. A single Prostasia wonder in one world could block every information about any or all information of the same person, intentionally or not(backstory idea, everyone, take notes!). Later on, Skafoi 5 or Metatropi 4 can be employed for more effective, though indirect, defenses.

He could ask who will become a threat to him later in life of course, but to our luck, the time stream is such a tangled, incomprehensible mess thanks to literally infinite number of wonders, orphans and manes f*cking it up left and right, questions regarding the future of genii which have in infinite realities tore infinite holes into the universe as we know it will hardly bring any useful information to begin with. The sad fact is that, Inspiration is so unpredictable even by Inspiration, that not even the "omniscient" Apokalypsi masters can comprehend it, or they'd know how it works by now. Who was detected as some random Neid who would clean your toilet one day could be predicted to become your greatest enemy moments later by the same wonder, only to die in the following six seconds, as long as Mania is in any way involved in the matter. This isn't just speculation, this is Science.

Let's use the textbook example.

Spoiler

Show

Genius A is a violent, unseemly person who uses a wonder to predict if 'he wins the majoral election' of a small town., Say, a population of 30.000. He is devastatingly unpopular, thus the answer is no. Enraged, he uses Katastrofi wonders he already had to subdue the population. In fear of his potent weapons, the citizens promise vote for Genius A. Answers to the prediction following this event are 'yes', even though by all accounts the wonder should have seen this coming - This can only make sense if the wonder only had information from the Present to work with; clearly glimpses into the Future are impossible in this instance. This is because, while the detector can recognize a wonder and it's functions, it can't tell you why it works or how effective it will be, since Mania to our current knowledge is not decipherable by itself, or anything else. If he only had sufficient mundane weapons and skill rather than mad science inventions, the answer could have been 'yes' originally, the mundane is reasonably foreseeable.

Moving on, if he was subtle enough in his endeavor to intimidate MMs around him, Genius A is safe and sound in his new office a short time later. Let's presume he wasn't. Genius B heard of Genius A's upcoming tyrannical rule, and used his knowledge in Epikrato to prevent him from winning by instilling spite and defiance in the voters(most likely Political Domination). While Genius A did try to predict if someone would stop him, he did so before Mania was involved, not after, therefore he had no idea of Genius B's plans. The answer yet again changes to 'no', and Genius A loses before he had a chance to react to the new enemy.

In conclusion,
1. Your Future is very likely already protected
2. Predicting your Future based on Present information doesn't achieve anything for the same reason
3. If you can't protect yourself in the Present, nobody cares, that's how it's supposed to work
4. If you can, then there's no problem.

The very fact which allows such people to exist prevents their powers from achieving their apparent potential. So don't sweat about Apokalypsi so much. Be smart about it, you can beat them just fine.

Ah. Understood.
So, it can predict anything, find anything, or tell you anything about the past, but it cannot reliably do the first two when mania is involved, since that's almost unpredictable.

[MugaSofer]

Use the table on page 87 to arrange your stats, not your gut instinct. 'New dots' mean the new amount of dots, not new number of dots. Your four dots in Encyclopedic Knowledge alone cost 20(as in, 2+4+6+8), if you spent your merit dots on Inspiration, which you should, since it's way cheaper.

OHHHH... new AMOUNT of dots, not number of dots ADDED... I thought there was somethin' wrong. Thanks!

Heh. Yeah, don't worry, that's a really common mistake. Made it myself at first.

(See what I meant, Dozen?)

MugaSofer is overreacting though.

If mere selective omniscience could break a campaign (as opposed to omnipresent omniscience which sadly does) D&D games would fall apart when the party's diviner gets her first third level spells.

Actually, I'm not. The issue isn't prophecy - that's handled as well as you can expect in an RPG, that is, no fate but what we make (more or less.)

The issue is that - as the rulebook puts it - clever Genii ask *how* they can achieve something. Being attacked by would-be Skynets because they predict you'll grow up to lead the Resistance isn't really an issue - worst-case scenario you get a neat plothook.

The problem is the guy who asked, fifty years ago, "how do I take over the world?", and therefore now rules the world.

(My advice? If you do end up using this, get your Beholden or Automata to follow the instructions offscreen, so the ST doesn't have to actually come up with brilliant solutions that somehow hold up during play.)

Of course, using it for that is perfectly in keeping with a "brilliant General" character concept ... I have vague plans to rebalance it in the next edition, probably by having harder problems take longer to solve (Deep Thought, anyone?), but until then my advice - which is only my advice, mind - is to leave it to NPCs who time-travel a lot.

(In point of fact, any Rank-5 wonder has potential for completely rewriting the story in the right circumstances, it's a design feature. But this is ... unusual in that respect, thankfully it's easy to work around.)

[IamL]

Heh. Yeah, don't worry, that's a really common mistake. Made it myself at first.

(See what I meant, Dozen?)



Actually, I'm not. The issue isn't prophecy - that's handled as well as you can expect in an RPG, that is, no fate but what we make (more or less.)

The issue is that - as the rulebook puts it - clever Genii ask *how* they can achieve something. Being attacked by would-be Skynets because they predict you'll grow up to lead the Resistance isn't really an issue - worst-case scenario you get a neat plothook.

The problem is the guy who asked, fifty years ago, "how do I take over the world?", and therefore now rules the world.

(My advice? If you do end up using this, get your Beholden or Automata to follow the instructions offscreen, so the ST doesn't have to actually come up with brilliant solutions that somehow hold up during play.)

Of course, using it for that is perfectly in keeping with a "brilliant General" character concept ... I have vague plans to rebalance it in the next edition, probably by having harder problems take longer to solve (Deep Thought, anyone?), but until then my advice - which is only my advice, mind - is to leave it to NPCs who time-travel a lot.

(In point of fact, any Rank-5 wonder has potential for completely rewriting the story in the right circumstances, it's a design feature. But this is ... unusual in that respect, thankfully it's easy to work around.)

Ah.
By the way, which skill would you place tactics under? 'cuz I'm going to need to pump that.