What does a class need to be tier 1?

[Zelkon]

I'm looking to make a tier 1 class, and I was wondering what the must have abilities of a tier 1 character are. Your help is greatly appreciated.

[Omnicrat]

Basically equivalent spell-power to an equal level wizard. You have to have a wide range of varied and powerful abilities, that at the time 9th level spells come on are on par with the ability to re-write reality to you will and build your own demiplanes.

[Zweisteine]

Tier one needs to be able to do anything anyone else can do, better than (nearly) anyone else can do it.

Tier one classes need spellcasting, or something similar, and the ability to learn as much of it as they can.

Tiers stuff:

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Take the Wizard, for example. A Wizard can learn spells that allow it to fill almost any party role, and it can learn all of them.

The factotum is a very versatile class, but it isn't good enough in any area to be more than tier 3, so it is stuck there.

While a Sorceror might be better at one thing than a Wizard, the Wizard can do far more, so it is a tier higher.

Details on tier system:

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Found this on the internet:

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Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.

More simply:

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Tier 6: Average—Has some skill in one mundane area.
Tier 5: Skilled—Has some skill in an advanced skill, or has a lot of a mundane skill.
Tier 4: Trained—Has a lot of skill in an advanced skill.
Tier 3: General expert—Has a lot of skill in many advanced areas.
Tier 2: Master—Has mastered one skill, or maybe even two.
Tier 1: Batman—Has mastered everything.

Even simpler:

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Tier 6: Commoner
Tier 5: Fighter
Tier 4: Rogue
Tier 3: Factotum
Tier 2: Sorcerer
Tier 1: Wizard

Read the intro of this, the original and widely accepted tier system.

[Omnicrat]

Tier one needs to be able to do anything anyone else can do, better than they can do it.

Edits to come.

That's not strictly true. A gramarist can do anything anyone else can do better than they can do it, but its DEFINITLY a tier 0 class. Gramarists have no real restrictions at all.

[Zweisteine]

Gramarist? I am not familiar with that class.

I am also not familiar with "tier 0"...

And a tier one class can be outdone in one area by a tier two (or eve three) specialist.

[Glimbur]

Tier 1 needs to have a strong answer to a number of challenges. For example, wizards can Teleport, Dominate, blast, buff, scry, Contact Other Plane, turn things/people invisible, shift across planes, hide in extra dimensional space.... and they got more power with most splat books.

As a contrast, a class that can do an infinite amount of damage to any creature as a touch attack but has no other abilities would not be Tier 1. Overpowered, yes, but high tier 3 4. In situations where an infinite amount of damage on touch is not the answer, it would have no special advantage.

Edit: forgot what the difference between Tier 3 and Tier 4 was.

[Moonwolf727]

Gramarist? I am not familiar with that class.

I am also not familiar with "tier 0"...

And a tier one class can be outdone in one area by a tier two (or eve three) specialist.

The Gramarist a homebrew class and tier 0 doesn't exist.

[Jormengand]

tier 0 doesn't exist.

It kind of does, but it's essentially homebrew only. It literally is the ability to do almost anything, and only a few classes (such as various dungeonmaster classes) have it.

[Moonwolf727]

It kind of does, but it's essentially homebrew only. It literally is the ability to do almost anything, and only a few classes (such as various dungeonmaster classes) have it.

Huh. Ok then. You learn something new every day I suppose. Thanks for letting me know

[Zelkon]

Huh. Ok then. You learn something new every day I suppose. Thanks for letting me know

The psionic artificer (an official class variant) comes the closest, because it's strictly better than the artificer in that it can produce the effects of all psionic powers instead of just levels 1-4 (with wands at least), plus a wealth of other features. But yeah, it's mostly just homebrew.

[Zweisteine]

That's not strictly true. A gramarist can do anything anyone else can do better than they can do it, but its DEFINITLY a tier 0 class. Gramarists have no real restrictions at all.

That is just saying that a class above tier 1 shows a characteristic of tier 1 classes.

To be tier 1, you have to be able to do anything better than almost anyone. To be tier 0, you have to be able to do anything better than anyone. Or you just have to be game breaking.

So to be tier 1, a class needs the ability to be very good at everything.

[Jormengand]

Huh. Ok then. You learn something new every day I suppose. Thanks for letting me know

The Beholder Mage and possibly the Iot7V are the only real classes that I can think of which are ever considered T0.

[Gildedragon]

Tier 1 needs to have a strong answer to a number of challenges. For example, wizards can Teleport, Dominate, blast, buff, scry, Contact Other Plane, turn things/people invisible, shift across planes, hide in extra dimensional space.... and they got more power with most splat books.

As a contrast, a class that can do an infinite amount of damage to any creature as a touch attack but has no other abilities would not be Tier 1. Overpowered, yes, but high tier 3. In situations where an infinite amount of damage on touch is not the answer, it would have no special advantage.

That is not T3 in the least. T4: one shtick they do well, but not much a help elsewhere.
T3 is a versatile character: factotum, bard, swordsage, et al.

On T0: It exists inasmuch that people talk about it, but it is not a particularly meaningful term. T1 is "capable of doing anything and everything" already; thus the discussion on tier 0 is quibbling about power: a variable outside the scope of the tier system, as it is, at its core, a measure of versatility. Example: the infinite touch attack damage-r. Making that individual deal arbitrarily high damage at will and bypassing all immunities; no attack roll, line of sight, or line of effect needed still has them at 4.

[eftexar]

I was under the impression that tier 0 referred to any class that was broken in any manner. So the Truenamer would fit in, as well as classes with too much power, since the class can't function without extreme over-optimization.
It just seems like a fancy way of saying, "this is broken and not even minor tweaks can fix it." It's kind of like the swear word of homebrewing in that sense.

[LordErebus12]

The Beholder Mage and possibly the Iot7V are the only real classes that I can think of which are ever considered T0.

the correct term is not Tier 0. Its correct term is "broken beyond repair".

[Jormengand]

I was under the impression that tier 0 referred to any class that was broken in any manner. So the Truenamer would fit in, as well as classes with too much power, since the class can't function without extreme over-optimization.
It just seems like a fancy way of saying, "this is broken and not even minor tweaks can fix it." It's kind of like the swear word of homebrewing in that sense.

No, tier 0 explicitly refers to classes superior to Tier 1. A truenamer is actually anywhere from T6 (if you just try playing as one) to T4 (If you build them to spam their abilities).

Of course, a wizard can also be T6 (Intelligence of 9, anyone?) but only the best Truenamer builds can consider themselves T4. Anything worse than T6 would probably be called T7, were it not for the fact that nothing is actually worse than a commoner except for a wizard/sorcerer with no intelligence/charisma, and even those just about stay T6.

the correct term is not Tier 0. Its correct term is "broken beyond repair".

That's like saying "You're not male, you're English." The latter is true, but irrelevant to the former except that it is in reference to the same person.

[Hanuman]

http://www.brilliantgameologists.com.../?topic=1002.0

[Omnicrat]

Hanuman, you realize it doesn't matter what the creator of the tier system thinks at this point? Its become a social construct, and as with all social constructs, is determined by the society that uses them, not necessarily the person who first came up with the concept of the same name. Basically, if 90% of the people say X means Y, when its creator intended X to mean Z, X means Y.

[Jormengand]

Hanuman, you realize it doesn't matter what the creator of the tier system thinks at this point? Its become a social construct, and as with all social constructs, is determined by the society that uses them, not necessarily the person who first came up with the concept of the same name. Basically, if 90% of the people say X means Y, when its creator intended X to mean Z, X means Y.

Omnicrat, you realise that in this case, most people actually do think that it means that?

[eftexar]

The way society sees it only works if a large portion of the majority agrees.

For example a large number of people say the are "going to Google" when they search, but google is not actually a verb. If everybody did then the company would lose the trademark and the G would become g. And at the rate they are going likely will.

[Omnicrat]

McJob got in the dictionary. Terms change.

What people view the tiers as are general levels of versatility. Unless I'm misremembering, Hanuman is saying its only existing as a balancing point, because that's what the guy who made it had in mind.

[Jormengand]

McJob got in the dictionary. Terms change.

What people view the tiers as are general levels of versatility. Unless I'm misremembering, Hanuman is saying its only existing as a balancing point, because that's what the guy who made it had in mind.

No, because the guy goes on to describe them as... general levels of versatility. Wow.

[Moonwolf727]

McJob got in the dictionary. Terms change.

What people view the tiers as are general levels of versatility. Unless I'm misremembering, Hanuman is saying its only existing as a balancing point, because that's what the guy who made it had in mind.

No, because the guy goes on to describe them as... general levels of versatility. Wow.

I wanted to ask you guys something important. Doesn't this look like the beginning of an argument to you? It looks like that to me. Perhaps you lovely people could agree to disagree, it'd be easier and healthier for all of us.

[eftexar]

I think it's probably fine as long as it doesn't get too heated. Arguments are a great way to discover new viewpoints or change your own. When people get to the point they swear or excessively call each other names is when it needs to end.

[erikun]

I've said this in another thread, but Tier 1+2 has the ability to pretty much provide a solution that pretty much wins any situation it can work in. A summoner can manage to summon a monster that is always useful, a Shapeshifter can always turn into something useful, and so on.

The distinction is that Tier 1 gets to change what they can do each day, and so can prepare themselves to give any solution possible. Your wizard can focus on summons or focus on Shapeshifting, then turn around and bind Djinn on their off days for infinite wishes, or break the local gold economy with several different tricks.


"Tier 0.5" or "Tier 0" is kind of a psudo-tier referencing T1 classes of builds that are so powerful that the usually limitations of T1 (needing to prepare) generally don't apply. Psionic Artifier, Spell-to-Power Erudite, and Arcane Swordsage tend to get put into that tier, as they can lean towards the ability to do anything they want, anytime they want.

[Omnicrat]

No, because the guy goes on to describe them as... general levels of versatility. Wow.

I read it as general levels of party synchronicity based roughly around versatility.

[Hanuman]

Hanuman, you realize it doesn't matter what the creator of the tier system thinks at this point? Its become a social construct, and as with all social constructs, is determined by the society that uses them, not necessarily the person who first came up with the concept of the same name. Basically, if 90% of the people say X means Y, when its creator intended X to mean Z, X means Y.

Oh, he re-posted the tier list because it was reaching max replies.
Here's the newest one:
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boa...php?topic=5293

Z

[LordErebus12]

Personally i despise the tiers list venomily as it becomes a footnote in player builds. I've been in games where the mere mention of playing a CW samurai is enough for them to rudely explain to me why the class is sooooooooo terrible and not useful in any and all situations and why the DM wont allow it.

I also absolutely HATE when other classes are viewed as weaker than others. It also does a great job at bashing melee classes, because they cant cast spells with the same strength as other classes. Tell that to my Rogue1/Marshal14 who has more magical items than the wizard does and often is the one dealing more damage than the rogue or wizard, usually while they get into position. He has a really high UMD and can cast any scroll/wand/rod/stave the wizard/cleric can without much trouble.

idk. It may be a useful dm tool but it isnt always correct. Optimization and flavor trumps it anyday.

[eftexar]

I'm not going to argue your point entirely LordErebus12, since I'm on the fence myself sometimes, but I do think it is, without argument, a good tool to use in the process of balancing homebrew classes (which is why it is important here).
In particular it is a good bookmark so others know how to critique it. Honestly though, all of my homebrew was tier 3 before I even knew about the tiers, so I'm not sure how much it changed anything on my part as far as design.

[eftexar]

I enjoy a good friendly argument, but I've been starting to get leery, of making them online, as of late.
I feel if people got as angry in person, as they did online, nothing would ever get resolved (see Congress). The need to emphasize oneself, because you can't read how another person feels, probably is the cause of these polarized reactions.

As a side note I'm generally fine with opinions like yours, but it annoys me to no end when people argue something, like what the tiers mean, with little, to no, evidence, ignore evidence when it suits them, or claim part of a majority that doesn't exist or that they aren't part of.