Core class battle

[StickMan]

The fighter V wizard thread got me thinking. How about we do a round robin elimation tournament. Each We will have one person per core class. And we will need some one to be the DM/judge because I want to play the fighter.
Stat generation will be
32 point buy

On top of this you get 2 ability increases, one for the 4th and and one for 8th HD.



The Rules so far (still subject to discussion):

- Core material PHB, MM, DMG (excluding Leadership)

- No Psionics

- PHB Races

- PHB Classes (No PrC and no multiclassing)

- Stats 32 point buy (+2 ability increases from HD)

- Avg. HP (Max 1st HD)
d4: 26 + (10x Con mod)
d6: 37 + (10x Con mod)
d8: 48 + (10x Con mod)
d10: 59 + (10x Con mod)
d12: 70 + (10x Con mod)

- Level 10 (45000 XP)

- Equipment: 49000 worth of starting equipment (max 30 % (14700) spend
on a single item and max CL 10)

- Item Creation
Item Creation feats are allowed, but any XP-costs will reduce your level below 10.
Notice that this also reduces the maximum caster level of any items you make (unless you hire outside help with creation).

- No Custom items (This includes wands and other items that are not fully charged or have less uses/day etc.)

- All builds must be legal (i.e. you must qualify for feats when you take them)

- Include individual and total prices and weight of equipment.

- Paladin:
Smite Evil:
Changed to Smite opponent.
Mount:
The special mounts listed in the DMG are also available.
Typical for its kind, but any feats and skill ranks gained from bonus HD you can freely choose for the animal.

- Druid/Ranger:
Animal Companion:
As the SRD says "A 1st-level druid’s companion is completely typical for its kind...", but any feats and skill ranks gained from bonus HD you can freely choose for the animal.

- Each fight will begin with participants fully rested and all items replenished.

- You are allowed to have spells and effects that last at least 1 hour / level active at the start of battle.

- Arena: Map-makers wanted
Know map, but Fog of War

Any thoughts on what the arena size should be. And If I'm missing any thing yell at me.

First to call the class first gets it.

DM: Lord_Silvanos and Stickman.
Barbarian:Pegasos989
Bard:Leush
Cleric:Rigeld2
Druid:The_Werebear
Fighter: PinkysBrain
Monk:Falconsflight
Paladin:The White Knight
Ranger:Draz74
Rogue:Hamster_Ninja
Sorcerer:Bobbis
Wizard:Jade_Tarem

[ken-do-nim]

You should clarify what % of the 49,000 gp can be spent on one item. Otherwise someone could plunk down 40000 on that ring of freedom of movement. Solid fog, solid schmog. :-). DMG gives 25% as a guideline.

The arena makes all the difference in the world. If there's room to fly/levitate out of harm's way, the casters will do so.

[ken-do-nim]

Also can the MM be used? Monks like improved natural attack and ability focus stunning fist.

[StickMan]

Thanks ken-do-nim. Your right about the map lets for now lets say a 10 foot celling. I don't want all the fighter types to have to be archers just to get a shot at casters. I added the 25% thing it was a good sugestion. MM feats are ok but no races.

[The_Werebear]

The arena I typically run for a battle is a 200 foot ring with a 30 foot roof. There is a 50 foot radius forest in the center with underbrush and shadows enough to hide. Horses are allowed inside. There are six seconds between spellcasting getting to start and the first movement.

[ken-do-nim]

Ooh, should it be round robin or everyone in the arena at once? Aside from cleric casting sanctuary, it could get really interesting.

[Draz74]

Argh, I already replied here, but my Internet connection died and ate my post

Anyway, I'm afraid of the time commitment involved in running all these duels, but I could probably build one of the characters. I'll tentatively claim the Ranger.

But a number of questions about the duels:

Is anything in Core banned? (e.g. Polymorph!!!) Is anything in the SRD outside of Core allowed (e.g. Psionic Feats)?

What races are allowed? PHB PC races only? Anything in the MM with an LA? What is the druid allowed to shape into?

Is there any motivation for any of the characters to be evil, so the Paladin can do some smiting? It's kind of a major feature of his.

Any multiclassing or PrCs allowed at all? I'm guessing "no," but I thought I'd ask, in case, for example, the Rogue thinks a 1-level dip in Shadowdancer is worthwhile.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

The fighter V wizard thread got me thinking. How about we do a round robin elimation tournament. Each We will have one person per core class.

This ensures the creation of somewhat more versatile characters, since you have to optimize for a wider range of opponents.
Elimination goes against that, because there are opponents you won't have to face then.

I think we should go beond the Elite Array on too the Stickman Array of
18,16,15,14,12,10.

So you suggest the equivalent of a 46-point buy
Making it high powered favors MAD classes, but I think you should keep it on a more reasonable and CORE supported level, say 32-point buy.

[Falconsflight]

I'll make the level 10 monk

I think a preset value for the stats would be better than rolling or a buy system. That way it's kind of equal footing and makes less tweaking.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

The elite array is 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8 (25-point equivalent) and in my opinion the best choice for an exercise like this, assuming it is an actual attempt to compare the classes based on the RAW.

[Pegasos989]

I'll make the level 10 monk

I think a preset value for the stats would be better than rolling or a buy system. That way it's kind of equal footing and makes less tweaking.

Also, may I suggest same preset items for everyone?
---End of sarcasm---

Yeah, it makes less tweaking but as that is going to happen in actual game too... Also, it gives better footing to paladins and monks but most classes would be better of pointbuy, so no equal footing there.

BTW, what about PrCs?
Is rogue 7/Assassin 3 counted as rogue 10 for this?
What about Rogue 4/Fighter 2/Assassin 4 as rogue 10?
Fighter 1/Sorcerer 6/EK 3 counted as sorcerer?

[StickMan]

Draz74: I think that your right and the duels will take alot of time. But will have to work it out to see when people are free. Also I don't see the point of baning things in this because that is just cripling what is good about these classes. Don't make you charater to fight on his own battle field, plan to fight dirty.
I think for the sake of this we will have to change the Smite evil to Smite other guy becasue I see no reason to be evil and if not then thats one less class feture for the palidin.
No multi-classing or PRC because I want this to be between pure core classes just to see who will win aginst who. Not that I'm going to take this all that seriously.
As for what will do for charater stats I'll take a vote of the people who are going to be in this to see what they want to do. Honestly I just wanted to do that becase that High power sounded like fun, and I hate 32 point buy/Elite Array.

[ken-do-nim]

I think if this is everybody at once in an arena, I'd like to play (could play whatever no one else wants). But if it's one at a time, we might all get slaughtered by one character who needs ganging up one. For instance, rogues work better when they can flank. Without the flank, they're not as good.

Meanwhile the wizard has the same approach (I think). Web with quickened ray of enfeeblement, then kill at leisure. That'll work against everybody but the bard & cleric who have freedom of movement. But in a large arena, those guys would have time to get out of the web while the wizard is busy stopping somebody else.

[StickMan]

Kin-do-nim This is why they make magic items. The rogue should buy a bag of tricks pop out an animal and flank with it. I don't even want to think about the free for all fight, it would be to hard to run, 11 people all at once on play by post.

[The White Knight]

I've always found 36 point buy to be a pretty happy medium. You're not total suck, and you're not vastly overpowered.

I'd suggest not having multiclassing or prestige classing, since this seems more a comparison of the base classes themselves than anything else.

The arena The_Werebear suggested sounds pretty good, although having a forest in the center feels awkward somehow. Perhaps the whole arena is natural terrain, and there are other obstacles scattered about (bushes, rocks, etc. - but not too densely so as to negate mounted combat or the like).

I'd consider trying a Paladin for this. I've always wondered exactly how well a core Paladin would measure up to the others.

[ken-do-nim]

Kin-do-nim This is why they make magic items. The rogue should buy a bag of tricks pop out an animal and flank with it. I don't even want to think about the free for all fight, it would be to hard to run, 11 people all at once on play by post.

Didn't think of that :-)

Fair enough about the 11 people all at once. I did have an idea for this once myself though, basically Doom as the arena. There would be a citadel. All the players would enter at a different point. Just like Doom as well, there would be monsters in the way too to add some 3rd party flavor. Last one standing wins (which because of the monsters could be none). There would also be secret rooms to discover with magic. That would help out the rogue and ranger. In the end, none of my friends were interested in competition D&D though, so I dropped the idea.

Edit: rethinking the Doom idea now, you may want a time limit. This after one friend suggested that if he were to play in it, he'd meld with stone as long as he could, then pop out to see if anyone was left.

[The_Werebear]

If you guys don't mind, I would like to take the Druid.

[Leush]

I choooose... BARD!!! And could I ask, that there be a play off between the loosers, so we know how each class is against the other?... Purely out of curiousity you understand... :P


EDIT: Arena size should be quite big, say 300*300*200 ft and not nessicarily be a level field, since that would make it more interesting.... or not.

[Piccamo]

If Mr. Barbarian kills Mr. Fighter does he get to take the stuff?

Also, how are you going to manage the 4 encounters per day to balance things for everyone? Does everyone fight 4 times and the loser of each battle is restored to 1/4 HP? Does each fight involve everyone at only 1/4 capacity (HP, spells, uses per day, etc)?

[Pegasos989]

I choooose... BARD!!! And could I ask, that there be a play off between the loosers, so we know how each class is against the other?

Heh, bard might actually be decent in this. Good will save helps against spellcasters, the few spells are nor anything comparable to a gish but as gishes aren't allowed... And d6 might not make you be able to combat but it should be enough to endure a few first attacks. Not to mention that if we play in a citadel, hide and move silently might become useful.

So even though I am the first one to argue against anyone saying bards aren't underpowered, a little bit of luck and bard has decent chance in this, I would say.



So, no PrCs or multiclassing then? Are custom magic items allowed?

Oh, and I think that best ways would be to put everyone through matches, starting at full stuff and hp, then winner goes to next match, etc... Everyone can restore to full after he has won 4 fights. That way spellcasters are given more realistic situation (giving fourth slots only is not fair as in some fights they use more and in some fights they use less).


EDIT: Actually, the way I count correctly, winner will go 4 fighst so just say "no rest between fights" and all is fine

Round 1:
a vs. b
c vs. d
e vs. f
g vs. h
i vs. j
Round 2:
a vs. c
e vs. g
Round 3:
e vs. g
Round 4:
e vs. k

The K is only one who goes only through 1 fight, so he could start at 4th of hp, daily uses, etc.

[Leush]

Ayup! Last time I was in an all out arena the bard won. But then, his player was a goddamn genius so I can't vouch for the same result.

Oh and to be awkward... The underpowerdness is what makes bards so much fun!

[Rigeld2]

I'll take the cleric since noone has picked up as the GM for the cleric vs Fighter duel I accepted.

[StickMan]

If Mr. Barbarian kills Mr. Fighter does he get to take the stuff?

Also, how are you going to manage the 4 encounters per day to balance things for everyone? Does everyone fight 4 times and the loser of each battle is restored to 1/4 HP? Does each fight involve everyone at only 1/4 capacity (HP, spells, uses per day, etc)?

Fist of all this is round robin not elimination so there will be no killing or stealing of other guys stuff, or in case of a kill we have a cleric on the sidelines with TrueRes preped. Second each encounter will be at full healt, full spells. 4 encounters per day is for a party of 4 charaters not for one on one fights in an arena setting.

As for the map I am going to make one that in cludes a High ceiling for flying but will also have some kind of like cave or built area to duck under, along with walls or trees to take cover.

Rigeld2 You can GM a fight your in.

[Draz74]

Draz74: I think that your right and the duels will take alot of time. But will have to work it out to see when people are free.

Well, I won't have much time for anything online until finals are over, 22 December.

Also I don't see the point of baning things in this because that is just cripling what is good about these classes. Don't make you charater to fight on his own battle field, plan to fight dirty.

No, I think most of us would quickly agree that there's plenty of things that are good about the Wizard, even without Polymorph. But hey, if you don't mind the Wizard turning himself into a 23-strength-with-reach Troll, or something even more optimal ...

Honestly I just wanted to do that becase that High power sounded like fun, and I hate 32 point buy/Elite Array.

High power is fun, but it's not a very fair representation of the classes. It's a huge advantage to MAD characters. By the way, by the RAW, even 32-point is high power, let alone 36-point. I think 28-point is the fairest, really. Or maybe a standard array, slightly better than Elite but worse than the StickMan? 16 14 14 12 10 8? Or even better? Note that characters will also have 2 extra points they'll be able to apply as they like due to achieving Levels 4 and 8.

Also, I'd like to point out a very important question still hanging: Custom magic items? Personally I'd say "no," except for moving items to different body slots for a 1.5x price penalty. Although I can see an argument for allowing skill-improving custom items (I love items that give bonuses to Bluff or Intimidate!).

[StickMan]

I'm going to say No on the Custom magic Items. The reason I hate thoughs systems is that I normaly play high powered games and we use die roll so my group ends with results highpower charaters. So I fully adimt that Stickman Array was full selfish attempt at make it high powered but with out dice roll but still some what balanced.

Wow you have exams till 22 mine end tommorow then I'm on break. But I go to The Ohio State University and we get out early.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

Since no one else has volunteered as DM, I would not mind doing it.

[StickMan]

Ok Silvanos I put you down for DM and myself if you can't do it durning a given fight and I can.

[Rigeld2]

I'll take the cleric since noone has picked up as the GM for the cleric vs Fighter duel I accepted.

Quoted for emphasis.. and how are we doing prestige classes?

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

We have 55 fights going on so a second DM might be a good idea, although some of these fights are going to be rather short.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

Quoted for emphasis.. and how are we doing prestige classes?

We are not.

No multi-classing or PRC because I want this to be between pure core classes just to see who will win aginst who.

EDIT: Just to remind people that we still have these 6 slots unfilled:

Barbarian:
Bard:
Paladin:
Rogue:
Sorcerer:
Wizard: