OOTS #896 - The Discussion Thread

[Smolder]

The deal was that V's belonged to the IFCC for a period of time equal to the duration of the soul splice, was it not? Typical demonic rules-lawyering would easily allow the IFCC to interpret ownership of V's soul as possession. Plus, it would be a really ironic contrapasso if the IFCC possessed V in a mirror of the soul splice. His realization of the genocide was punishment for Familicide, so possession would be the punishment for the deal.

That's the joke. V earned eternity via Familicide. Possession of hir soul after death is already aassured. If V is to pay both debts, s/he would have to get a head start paying it off now.

[Math_Mage]

That's the joke. V earned eternity via Familicide. Possession of hir soul after death is already aassured. If V is to pay both debts, s/he would have to get a head start paying it off now.

Eternity is 50/50, per canon.

[Harry Leipzig]

That's the joke. V earned eternity via Familicide. Possession of hir soul after death is already aassured. If V is to pay both debts, s/he would have to get a head start paying it off now.

Has V's alignment turned to Neutral Evil? I think V's still Neutral, but agreed, Familicide was heinous enough to warrant an afterlife in the Lower Planes. But who knows, maybe the IFCC will decide that they want the time for the soul splice now, because, "Oh, you were trying to help your friends? Too bad." V will have to pull off something extraordinary, perhaps destroying the Snarl to save the world, to make up for Familicide. How V's getting out of this mess is beyond me.

[WolvesbaneIII]

More than likely, something has happened to the Snarl since its last appearance. Maybe killing the Gods of the East gave it some sort of divine levels of intelligence and wisdom, allowing it to become less malevolently destructive.

Ooh. Kind of like majin buu. I like your interpretation there. Majin buu absorbed 2 of the highest of the Gods in dragon ball. The most powerful and cruelest demon was given a much kinder and gentle disposition...though it still relished for slaughter a bit.

The snarl may be kind of like that and it might not "kill" but absorb it's victims gaining their intelligence and insight. The planet in the rift might be a world of the snarls own design. A proper paradise...or a true nightmare worse than hell itself. Or the real world like earth or something.

[rodneyAnonymous]

No, possession of body and possession of soul are different. Also the fiends said they can't act directly on the mortal plane except when making a deal, and 1) bodily possession would definitely be direct action, and 2) I don't think they meant "except when making a deal or as a result of one" (that is, they can't include action on the mortal plane in their deal terms).

The revelation that they can "cash in" before V dies is unexpected but not contradicted by the terms of the deal or anything the fiends have said about what they can and can't do. I don't think it's possible that they can control V's body like a puppet though.

[Tragak]

No, possession of body and possession of soul are different. Also the fiends said they can't act directly on the mortal plane except when making a deal, and 1) bodily possession would definitely be direct action, and 2) I don't think they meant "except when making a deal or as a result of one" (that is, they can't include action on the mortal plane in their deal terms).

The revelation that they can "cash in" before V dies is unexpected but not contradicted by the terms of the deal or anything the fiends have said about what they can and can't do. I don't think it's possible that they can control V's body like a puppet though.

Is it possible that they were just lying?

[Harry Leipzig]

Ooh. Kind of like majin buu. I like your interpretation there.

There's a thought. After consuming the Eastern pantheon, the Snarl became a god, and created its own world in its prison. What kind of a god, though? Benevolent, malevolent, apathetic, some kind of writer/artist/scientist who creates the parameters of the universe and lets it do its thing within those parameters while keeping a personal interest in the universe and the beings within it? An interesting and intimidating thought. We could be heading for another series of comics like Roy's conversation about alignment with the deva, but on a more fundamental level.

Fasten your seat belts, people. Things could get very trippy.

[rodneyAnonymous]

Is it possible that they were just lying?

About not being able to act directly on the mortal plane as a limitation in general? I doubt it, using imps (etc) as proxies most of the time would be a pretty elaborate and inconvenient cover.

About the circumstances when the limitation applies? (That is, "when making a deal" is not true.) I guess so. Odd thing to lie about though.

[Cirin]

That's the joke. V earned eternity via Familicide. Possession of hir soul after death is already aassured. If V is to pay both debts, s/he would have to get a head start paying it off now.

Even the IFCC doesn't believe they have V's soul for eternity.

Immediately after the Familicide they thought they had a 50/50 shot at it for that stunt (Comic #668). . .and when Qarr appeared to V in the ziggurat, he basically tipped his hand that he was there to try and ensure V's damnation by leading hir away from atonement, and failed (and had to settle with mortal misery of guilt as a consolation prize per Comic #884).

In other words, the IFCC believes V can atone for it and isn't irrevocably damned (even if there is a fair chance of ending up in the Lower Planes for that one act), and they are pretty much Subject Matter Experts on damnation.

[Harry Leipzig]

About not being able to act directly on the mortal plane as a limitation in general? I doubt it, using imps (etc) as proxies most of the time would be a pretty elaborate and inconvenient cover.

About the circumstances when the limitation applies? (That is, "when making a deal" is not true.) I guess so. Odd thing to lie about though.

I don't think they were lying about not directly interfering. But what qualifies as "direct interference"? Could they justify V's possession to carry out their will as V acting as a proxy? That may be shaky justification, but justification nonetheless. Casting Teleport or Plane Shift counts as interference per their say-so, so it will be interesting to see how exactly they avoid direct interference, or justify it.

[Ninja_Grand]

Its the classic blunder. Note how when the soul splice was made, only a verbal contract. Nothing spoken or on paper said "when you die". Just "We get your soul."


So what is their angle?

[Harry Leipzig]

Its the classic blunder. Note how when the soul splice was made, only a verbal contract. Nothing spoken or on paper said "when you die". Just "We get your soul."


So what is their angle?

Something involving V and the gate. That much is clear. How they are connected is unclear to me. Perhaps they will use V to seize the gate? Perhaps they will use V as the arcane spellcaster in Redcloak's ritual in an attempt to out-gambit Redcloak and Xykon?

[nerd4life123]

One question I have: why would V assume the destruction of the gate also means the destruction of the inner world?

S/he doesn't, necessarily. However, it's been stated that the overall seal weakens as Gates are destroyed. So, how can s/he be sure that one will be enough to hold the Snarl from destroying the planet inside the rifts, if the Snarl exists. S/he may or may not doubt either or both of those things, but doesn't want even the slightest possibility.

Its the classic blunder.

So, V's gonna get into a land war in the Southern Continent?

[Tock Zipporah]

So, V's gonna get into a land war in the Southern Continent?

And never go up against an undead sorcerer when DEATH is on the line!

[Stella]

[Re: David and Goliath]
I would correct you on this, but the last time I corrected someone's half-remembered impressions of Nevi'im, I got a warning from the mods.

Perhaps you refer to the passages in Samuel which indicate that Goliath was killed in a later battle, and from which the conclusion can be made that the name Goliath was used in error in the recounting of the oft referenced combat between David and Goliath?

I am not sure how referencing that would be worthy of a mod warning. It is a simple matter of historical fact, regardless of anyone's particular belief system.

The name Goliath was used in reference to the battle between David and Goliath, so the latter battle telling of Goliath's death to Elhanan only serves to sow confusion, it does not make a definitive conclusion for either position.

Which is unfortunately very true for a great many ancient texts, be they religious or secular in nature. We in the present can only hope to make the best sense of them that we can, and recognize their self contradictions much as we might recognize the contradictions present in many political positions of the present time.

[Tannhaeuser]

I wonder if the IFCC might want to have all the other gates destroyed because they already control one. With sole control assured by the destruction of all the alternative gates, they could presumably do to the gods what the Dark One would, at this point, only threatens to do -- wipe them out entirely -- with no regard to the positions of goblins or any other mortal race. (One wonders if a Snarl-on-a-leash might not even go some way toward making Tiamat easier for them to deal with.)

Just a thought. Not wedded to it. Not even dating.

[Holy_Knight]

No, possession of body and possession of soul are different. Also the fiends said they can't act directly on the mortal plane except when making a deal, and 1) bodily possession would definitely be direct action, and 2) I don't think they meant "except when making a deal or as a result of one" (that is, they can't include action on the mortal plane in their deal terms).

The revelation that they can "cash in" before V dies is unexpected but not contradicted by the terms of the deal or anything the fiends have said about what they can and can't do. I don't think it's possible that they can control V's body like a puppet though.

I don't think it's that farfetched. If V's soul controls his body, and the fiends control his soul, then controlling his body like a puppet may be exactly what the deal will allow them to do. It's not a given that it works like that, but that would be a not-unreasonable interpretation of what's going to happen. According to the IFCC, they each "get" his soul for however long the respective splice is maintained, and his soul "spends that amount of time with" each of them. It all comes down to what precisely those words mean, but I'd say imparting bodily control through V's soul as a proxy is not out of the question.

[Sir_Leorik]

Perhaps you refer to the passages in Samuel which indicate that Goliath was killed in a later battle, and from which the conclusion can be made that the name Goliath was used in error in the recounting of the oft referenced combat between David and Goliath?

I am not sure how referencing that would be worthy of a mod warning. It is a simple matter of historical fact, regardless of anyone's particular belief system.

The name Goliath was used in reference to the battle between David and Goliath, so the latter battle telling of Goliath's death to Elhanan only serves to sow confusion, it does not make a definitive conclusion for either position.

Which is unfortunately very true for a great many ancient texts, be they religious or secular in nature. We in the present can only hope to make the best sense of them that we can, and recognize their self contradictions much as we might recognize the contradictions present in many political positions of the present time.

During a thread that somehow veered into a discussion of "Raiders of the Lost Ark" I posted a somewhat detailed explanation of the Ark's canonical "powers" in 1st Samuel. That got me a warning from the mods, so I am trying to steer clear of making the same mistake.

[Stick_stickleyy]

I'm not sure if this is the appropriate place to post this but this particular comic is not working on the website. I was reading back through the comic and noticed this one particular image was broken.