OOTS #896 - The Discussion Thread

[Shale]

Nah, the only misleading part of the answer was that it didn't account for Xykon going to Azure City before Girard's or Kraagor's gates. The answer was unambiguous that he would eventually go to Girard's, and would do so before going to Kraagor's.

[Defiant]

Someone please explain this to me: Why does V think that destroying the gate will cause genocide upon that world? The Sapphire Guard gate was destroyed, and that world seemed all fine... What's different about the desert gate?

[Obscure Blade]

My speculation for some time has been that the plan of the Fiends centers on gaining control of a Gate and using it to unleash the Snarl on the gods. Destroy the gods - perhaps the evil gods as well as the good - and the fiends may figure they can then dominate the Outer Planes. Especially if the Snarl also kills a lot of celestials in the process. So, the plan may be to possess V, kill or restrain the Order (I'm betting on "restrain", both for story reasons and just so the fiends can enjoy making the Order "watch as all you love dies screaming!"), and then take control of the Gate and begin the rampage. A fiendish spirit or a clerical soul splice may serve to make up for the lack of a divine caster.

At some point something stops them naturally; at this point probably Xykon shows up. In the ensuing fight the Gate is broken, and that fiend's time on V runs out. But possibly not until major damage has been done. Imagine for example the reaction of Durkon to finding out that not only is he a vampire, but Thor is obliterated.

Two Paths? Could that be a reference to Led Zeppelin's Stairway to Heaven?

I remember two paths at Sunday school. Might be time for V's redemption.

I figured that it was just a reference to V and the rest of the Order finding two separate paths to the Gate.

But morals aside, there's another, much more basic reason not to destroy the gate (sorry if this has already been said, I didn't have time to read the whole thread): the Order will all die. This is what happened when the first gate was destroyed. This is what happened when the second gate was destroyed. Do you really want to be at the center of that?

The actual first Gate destroyed was Lirian's Gate in Start of Darkness, and Redcloak was literally standing right next to it and suffered no injury.

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The real question is: how does releasing the Snarl help the Fiends? The Lower Planes would be in just as much danger from the Snarl as the Upper Planes, the souls of everyone on two worlds would be snuffed out (meaning no Larvae to turn into new Devils, Demons or Yugoloths) and no more mortals to ever tempt. We're missing an important part of the IFCC's long-term plans, and that is worrying!

In The Crayons of Time, it's mentioned that it's "theorized" that the Snarl because of its nature is actually more deadly to gods than to non-gods; the fiends might figure they can handle it.

[David Argall]

Question 1: Why are the fiends taking charge of V now? The elf is shown as just about helpless and useless. They are not wanting 20 minutes of futile. Why waste their time?
Answer: V is going to get recharged. Probably not respliced. That was a once in a century event. Also the fiends are afraid of the consequences of the spell. Just how and how much, we can't tell, but they flee the scene of the crime. Casting the spell could have been quite risky for them and a 2nd casting out of the question. So a new set of spells is much more likely. Anyway V will gain a way to get to the gate.
Question 2: What will he/she do?
Answer: She/he will not destroy the gate. That is what Roy is about to do. They don't need to do a thing to achieve that goal. And even if V was likely to intervene to defend the gate, they could make the wizard change sides later and that would be better for them.
Rather, they want to "help" V defend the gate, and take it over. While we know very little about how much the fiends know, they are presumed to be of god level and able to learn a lot once they knew of the gates. Finding a way to control a gate should be well within their ability. They will need some ritual, which will take 10? minutes, but they see this as quite doable. [The intervention of Team Evil or LG is dramatically certain, but maybe none of them have any bard levels. And the highly intelligent do highly stupid things quite often.]
V may con the party, or just blow them away. Either way the elf starts the ritual and gets interrupted by LG or X.

[Hallavast]

I am SO startled!

[RMS Oceanic]

Isn't Xykon headed for the other gate that's left? Roy posed a complicated question to the oracle about it and wound up tricking himself and when he figured it out the spell on the valley made him forget.

Roy's question was (summarised): Between Girard's Gate and Kraagor's Gate, which one will Xykon go to first? The flaw in his questioning is he forgot about the (extant at the time) Soon's Gate, which is the one Xykon was heading for presently.

Someone please explain this to me: Why does V think that destroying the gate will cause genocide upon that world? The Sapphire Guard gate was destroyed, and that world seemed all fine... What's different about the desert gate?

It's less that destroying this Gate will destroy that planet, but the point that what the Order believes is not the whole story, and acting on incomplete knowledge could make things worse. It's also that Vaarsuvius is still reeling from what happened at Lunchtime, and is drawing the conclusion hastily.

This was a bloody effective gut punch. Showing restraint in not hinting about the IFCC - mention of Qarr aside - until the final panel really enhances its effect, especially as we don't know what they're about to do or how that will further their ends. Top notch stuff.

[Dracon1us]

wow
just...awesome

V character's arc is on par with the best literature I've ever read...truly amazing


Seems to me that the Fiends are just activating the Imp for some reason...

[Canisius]

I think Rich may have hidden an important plot point in this strip, and then distracted us with the fiends:

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Blackwing's comment about whether everything they know about the Snarl and the gates may be wrong.

[Porthos]

I think Rich may have hidden an important plot point in this strip, and then distracted us with the fiends:

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Blackwing's comment about whether everything they know about the Snarl and the gates may be wrong.

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He's echoing what's already been said when this plot point was first introduced. This is just a logical extension of that thought.

[WindStruck]

Hmm.... I do think it would be intersting to see a super-charged, refreshed Darth V again, but this time he is completely and utterly evil (as he is literally taken over by the fiends). Maybe another soul splice is risky, maybe not. All they really need is a somewhat powerful arcane mortal host, I presume, but with their control over V, I would expect some terribly smart, efficient, and evil things being done.

It would even be better if Xykon came in just around that time, and out of everyone, recognizes V, which would probably both confuse and piss the hell out of Roy. Then maybe we get an epic rematch, although this time with the fiend's control, V will probably start winning (even against redcloak and MitD too), BUT, I bet then Tarquin will intervene in Xykon's favor, hoping to glean whatever the heck Nale tricked him into thinking he could gain from him. Of course, that would be a big mistake...

[JBiddles]

The fiends apparently want conflict to be sustained (or that's what they want Quarr to think), so it's in their best interests to destroy the Gate, or otherwise prevent Xykon or Tarquin getting their hands on it, but make sure the Order doesn't die in the process. Were I them, I'd fake a last Epic defence of Girard's activating, teleporting the Order to a "random" location and hiding the whole pyramid again. Girard never took Epic Spellcasting, by the Order doesn't know that. With Vaarsuvius acting as a medium, the archfiends would be more than capable of that.

[Heksefatter]

Someone please explain this to me: Why does V think that destroying the gate will cause genocide upon that world? The Sapphire Guard gate was destroyed, and that world seemed all fine... What's different about the desert gate?

My understanding is that V doesn't think it as much as believing that it is a possibility. It makes perfect sense to prevent something that may result in a planetary genocide. Or even just to pause a very important action decided on possibly wrong premises.

[prpl]

I don't understand why Roy wants to destroy the gate. Maybe Xykon is already there and they might have to fight him, but do they really gain anything from destroying this gate? If they destroy this gate then Xykon is just going to go to the next gate and he'll get there a LOT faster than OotS. The only good characters we know who might be at Kraagor's gate are O'Chul and Lien and while O'Chul is a bad ass and Lien took some levels since last time, they will be a lot easier for Xykon to deal with than it will be for Xykon to deal with a OotS, even an OotS without Durkon and a weak Belkar and a V who might or might not be available. Don't forget that OotS might be able to strike up a temporary deal with the new LG about fighting Xykon together. And again, the alternative to a showdown is that Xykon just teleports to Kraagor's gate while OotS is stuck in the desert with a hostile LG. Even if they do destroy the gate and somehow manage to get to Kraagor's gate faster they are just going to be in the same situation again, Xykon is about to show up and now they can't destroy the gate because it's the last one.

[Breccia]

My predictions have a pretty pathetic success rate, so this one is probably wrong:

The IFCC will make V...do nothing.

There is no point in making V destroy the gate, because Roy's going to do that already. If they wanted the gate preserved, they have no need to take control of V. V's already drawing attention, the OotS would likely stop and figure things out if the pounding continued. In V's silence, Roy will almost certainly destroy the gate in under the few minutes that the IFCC has control.

However there's no point in them making V, for example, attack anyone, either. Maybe V could kill the remaining OotS (doubtful) but all that would do is leave the gate between the upcoming Xykon/Tarquin showdown, which is where things are going anyhow. V almost certainly does not have the power to take on either evil force alone, and the IFCC wouldn't throw V away so soon.

V has not yet shown any ability to bring in forces from another world, such as teleport and gate. In fact, V can't cast some of them. So it seems unlikely the IFCC could take direct control of the gate themselves, either.

And V has just demonstrated inability to call anyone for help, ether physically or magically, in the time before the gate is destroyed.

So what's left? Doing nothing.

[rgrekejin]

So Z and Durkon just summoned two fiends... I very much doubt it, but I wonder whether or not they might somehow be IFCC plants.

[Math_Mage]

My predictions have a pretty pathetic success rate, so this one is probably wrong:

The IFCC will make V...do nothing.

There is no point in making V destroy the gate, because Roy's going to do that already. If they wanted the gate preserved, they have no need to take control of V. V's already drawing attention, the OotS would likely stop and figure things out if the pounding continued. In V's silence, Roy will almost certainly destroy the gate in under the few minutes that the IFCC has control.

However there's no point in them making V, for example, attack anyone, either. Maybe V could kill the remaining OotS (doubtful) but all that would do is leave the gate between the upcoming Xykon/Tarquin showdown, which is where things are going anyhow. V almost certainly does not have the power to take on either evil force alone, and the IFCC wouldn't throw V away so soon.

V has not yet shown any ability to bring in forces from another world, such as teleport and gate. In fact, V can't cast some of them. So it seems unlikely the IFCC could take direct control of the gate themselves, either.

And V has just demonstrated inability to call anyone for help, ether physically or magically, in the time before the gate is destroyed.

So what's left? Doing nothing.

Augmenting V's power and seizing control of the Gate? Seems the obvious explanation from where I sit.

[multilis]

I don't think fiends spent a once in 100 years splice to get V to do nothing.

Dark one has spell that gives him control, they likely have similar that gives them control.

A more complicated variation would be they actually need to taint the Dark Ones spell, and X and R are about to show up. Chance that we get further climax as X finds out about R's betrayal.

I suspect what was told about Snarl is basically true but not the full truth... Snarl has been growing/"evolving", Snarl may be one of the sides rather than just a force of chaotic destruction now.

[spruce56]

Even if the fiends seize control of V, Blackwing's still there to pass the 'DON'T DESTROY THE GATE!' message. If nothing else, the Order might finally realize Blackwing talks independently of V, if s/he says one thing and the bird another.

[137beth]

That's not Qarr's eyes, that's the peephole.

Those are not Qarr's eyes. Those are holes in the wall.

Those aren't Qaar's eyes. They're peepholes.

Not eyes, pinholes, see panel 2.

eyes ? Those are "periodic pinholes".

Super ninja!

I don't understand why Roy wants to destroy the gate. Maybe Xykon is already there and they might have to fight him, but do they really gain anything from destroying this gate? If they destroy this gate then Xykon is just going to go to the next gate and he'll get there a LOT faster than OotS. The only good characters we know who might be at Kraagor's gate are O'Chul and Lien and while O'Chul is a bad ass and Lien took some levels since last time, they will be a lot easier for Xykon to deal with than it will be for Xykon to deal with a OotS, even an OotS without Durkon and a weak Belkar and a V who might or might not be available. Don't forget that OotS might be able to strike up a temporary deal with the new LG about fighting Xykon together. And again, the alternative to a showdown is that Xykon just teleports to Kraagor's gate while OotS is stuck in the desert with a hostile LG. Even if they do destroy the gate and somehow manage to get to Kraagor's gate faster they are just going to be in the same situation again, Xykon is about to show up and now they can't destroy the gate because it's the last one.

You're also forgetting that all the gates originally had very powerful defense mechanisms, and Girard's gate has now lost all of its defenses, while Kragor's gate (as far as the order knows) still has all of them.

[Heksefatter]

I don't understand why Roy wants to destroy the gate. Maybe Xykon is already there and they might have to fight him, but do they really gain anything from destroying this gate? If they destroy this gate then Xykon is just going to go to the next gate and he'll get there a LOT faster than OotS. The only good characters we know who might be at Kraagor's gate are O'Chul and Lien and while O'Chul is a bad ass and Lien took some levels since last time, they will be a lot easier for Xykon to deal with than it will be for Xykon to deal with a OotS, even an OotS without Durkon and a weak Belkar and a V who might or might not be available. Don't forget that OotS might be able to strike up a temporary deal with the new LG about fighting Xykon together. And again, the alternative to a showdown is that Xykon just teleports to Kraagor's gate while OotS is stuck in the desert with a hostile LG. Even if they do destroy the gate and somehow manage to get to Kraagor's gate faster they are just going to be in the same situation again, Xykon is about to show up and now they can't destroy the gate because it's the last one.

It makes sense to me. The Order knows that the defenses at Girard's gate is down, while the defenses at Kraagor's gate probably are not. Also, I am not sure if the Order knows whether Xykon knows where Kraagor's gate is.

One does not simply teleport into Kraagor's gate.

[Tragak]

So Z and Durkon just summoned two fiends... I very much doubt it, but I wonder whether or not they might somehow be IFCC plants.

Technically, "summoning" a creature instead of "calling" one means that an extension of the spellcaster's will is manifesting as a living creature, rather than taking a real creature and teleporting it from somewhere else

... However, the Cleric version "Planar Ally" is a call rather than a summon, so even though Z only created an evil Patronus, the real fiend that D called could very well have been working for the IFCC, so never mind, your point stands better than does my "rebuttal"

[Grey Pilgrim]

Well, first of all:
Great plot recap, everyone!

I am also inclined to believe that the fiends won't do anything concerning the gate but letting Roy destroy it. They said they want conflict without either side gaining the upper hand. Right now, that means to destroy the gate and see all the teams strife over the last one. Also, there is no point in bringing Darth-V back. On the contrary, the fiends will be subtle, just silencing her (and probably doing something sneaky) but not going full kaboom. And moreover it seems to me that leaving V to suffer from her past decisions (more) after the posession while still not telling anybody would make more sense storywise.

The planet within the rift puzzles me greatly, though...

And also:
holding the universe's pants
and:
when in doubt, set it on fire!

[Wraithlord]

So Z and Durkon just summoned two fiends... I very much doubt it, but I wonder whether or not they might somehow be IFCC plants.

I'm fairly sure that, even after being vampirified, Durkon still wouldn't be so foolish as to consort with plants. They would surely be allies of his wooden foes.

[zimmerwald1915]

They don't know that there are any people (or animals, plants or single celled bacteria) living on that world, its just that after making callous assumptions when she cast familicide, V is no longer willing to gamble with the lives of innocents.

There is visible greenery on the other world. That's peripheral to the main point, however, which is sound.

The wording they used- that V's soul would spend time with them, in return for their gift- seems to imply that V's soul will therefore not be in V's body.

And having V's body fall lifeless to the ground for half an hour would stop the yelling and knocking.

Darn, I thought I was clever for having through of this.

[Adaon Nightwind]

Wow..

Even if the fiends seize control of V, Blackwing's still there to pass the 'DON'T DESTROY THE GATE!' message. If nothing else, the Order might finally realize Blackwing talks independently of V, if s/he says one thing and the bird another.

That might mean that Blackwing will die as a result of V's Actions under the control of the Fiends. As may Belkar. Which calls for the question if V will be capable of retaining his mind, somehow, while under control and thus witnessing his actions but is unable to stop or alter them..

I'm afraid

[pedrogush]

1 hour is far too much time to take control of a character for plot reasons, especially if given the ability to circunvent travel distances, so i don't think V will get the ability to teleport again from a splice or other related method.

My prediction for the far future though is that just as his "lease time" is about to end and if he gets teleport as part of his devil powers, then one of the fiends will make him/her kill his mate and children just for the evulz, further driving home the pointlessness of his actions and finnaly sending him/her flying over the slippery slope of insanity.

[prpl]

It makes sense to me. The Order knows that the defenses at Girard's gate is down, while the defenses at Kraagor's gate probably are not. Also, I am not sure if the Order knows whether Xykon knows where Kraagor's gate is.

One does not simply teleport into Kraagor's gate.

Then why are they assuming Xykon knows where Girard's gate is? And while the defenses at Kraagor's gate might not be down, they know what kind of defenses they are because Shinjo told them that Serini had made a gate in Kraagor's spirit - a dungeon with the strongest monsters possible. While Xykon got defeated at both Lirian's gate and Soon's gate, he was perfectly able to brute force Dorukan's gate and brute force is what Kraagor's gate seems to be all about and Xykon is good at that and Roy knows this.

Though I guess maybe they just want to destroy the gate and regroup before Kraagor's gate since the party has taken quite a hit since they entered the pyramid. I still think that's just to pretty much give up since there is no way they can get to Kraagor's gate faster than Xykon.

[Tock Zipporah]

I don't understand why Roy wants to destroy the gate. Maybe Xykon is already there and they might have to fight him, but do they really gain anything from destroying this gate? If they destroy this gate then Xykon is just going to go to the next gate and he'll get there a LOT faster than OotS. The only good characters we know who might be at Kraagor's gate are O'Chul and Lien and while O'Chul is a bad ass and Lien took some levels since last time, they will be a lot easier for Xykon to deal with than it will be for Xykon to deal with a OotS, even an OotS without Durkon and a weak Belkar and a V who might or might not be available. Don't forget that OotS might be able to strike up a temporary deal with the new LG about fighting Xykon together. And again, the alternative to a showdown is that Xykon just teleports to Kraagor's gate while OotS is stuck in the desert with a hostile LG. Even if they do destroy the gate and somehow manage to get to Kraagor's gate faster they are just going to be in the same situation again, Xykon is about to show up and now they can't destroy the gate because it's the last one.

THIS gate is completely defenseless, and the OotS has no reason to think the Linear Guild will turn around and help them after trying to kill them this whole time. Destroying this gate is the only way to stop it from falling into evil hands.

Kraagor's gate, on the other hand, is presumably fully defended. There is not a single reason to think its defenses have fallen, and even if Xykon teleports there first he has to deal with those defenses before he can get near the gate. Considering how strong the other gate defenses have been, the last one is probably going to be really hard for him to crack.

So it's a safer bet for the Order to make Xykon go to the last, fully defended hard to penetrate gate, rather than sitting there in the desert with no defenses and the Draketooths (Draketeeth?) all dead.

[Anarion]

Nice to see this go from an Order of the Stick vs. Linear Guild thing into a no-holds barred multi-faction slugfest. I look forward to Xykon's arrival now.

Someone please explain this to me: Why does V think that destroying the gate will cause genocide upon that world? The Sapphire Guard gate was destroyed, and that world seemed all fine... What's different about the desert gate?

V doesn't think there will be genocide. V's problem is that there could be genocide, they don't know and V is scared that Roy is acting on incomplete information and would make a different decision if he knew there was a planet on the other side.

Augmenting V's power and seizing control of the Gate? Seems the obvious explanation from where I sit.

I'm mostly in this camp.

Darn, I thought I was clever for having through of this.

The idea that V's soul will leave hir body is clever, and might be effective here. On the other hand, as I agree with Math_Mage's idea, I would suggest that the IFCC might fill that body with an alternate soul or possibly modify V's soul while they have it and then send it back with some powerups and rather specific direction.

Regardless of the specifics though, the IFCC do seem to have a specialty in soul manipulation, so I think that taking over V and doing some super evil power stuff would be cooler and more interesting than just making V comatose for half an hour.

[137beth]

Then why are they assuming Xykon knows where Girard's gate is? And while the defenses at Kraagor's gate might not be down, they know what kind of defenses they are because Shinjo told them that Serini had made a gate in Kraagor's spirit - a dungeon with the strongest monsters possible. While Xykon got defeated at both Lirian's gate and Soon's gate, he was perfectly able to brute force Dorukan's gate and brute force is what Kraagor's gate seems to be all about and Xykon is good at that and Roy knows this.

Though I guess maybe they just want to destroy the gate and regroup before Kraagor's gate since the party has taken quite a hit since they entered the pyramid. I still think that's just to pretty much give up since there is no way they can get to Kraagor's gate faster than Xykon.

Xykon wasn't able to brute-force Dorukan's dungeon. It took him a long time camping outside, and even then he had to rely on Dorukan's psychological weakness to draw him out.