OOTS #896 - The Discussion Thread

[The Zealot]

Oooh, is dominated V going to kill blackwing? could she do that? That would be rather sad, but it makes sense...

Thinking about it a bit more, this seems quite likely. Why dismiss 'em when the bird has been such a hassle for their pawn? One quick spell and Blackwing falls.

Ugh. The Order just cannot catch a break, can they?

[otakuryoga]

Dunh DUNH DUNH!!

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[Porthos]

Well, ****.
/deadpan

*****

Also, as the very first person to call what is almost assuredly going to happen in the next comic (in some form at least) all I have to say is...

****.

[Tock Zipporah]

Smart. Since the price of the deal with V was to remain in their 'care' for an hour (more or less) she can't warn the Order to not destroy the gate. That'd leave only one gate left and then they can focus on using their agents to destroy/use it.

Of course we don't know what happens when the gates are destroyed but smart is that whatever happens it'll only occur once ALL the gates are destroyed. The only worrisome thing is that V will be (even more) devastated...

It might be worse than that.

They get V's soul, but not necessarily his body. Thus there would be a soulless (free from conscience, guilt, or morals) wizard running around doing god knows what without having to worry about the consequences of her actions.

Or, the soulless body could be an empty vessel, which could then be possessed by another soul. To do who knows what sort or evil.

[luc258]

Since V is talking about wether the whole story of the Snarl is actually true or not, what do we readers think?
I personally think it is true, less because of what the order knows, but more of what knowledge was imparted on Redcloak. The Dark One would have no reason to lie to Redcloak, Redcloak would follow his commands anyways. So I do think the knowledge Redcloak has from TDO is not a deception and the TDO is a god afterall. How far could he be off?

[Knight.Anon]

It strikes me as unlikely that the fiends can pour massive power into Vaarsuvius' body when they control it, or they'd have no need to make a deal with Vaarsuvius, since whoever they made a deal with would become ridiculously powerful when they chose. A random first-level commoner would do, or someone like Kubota. They could make the deal whenever they chose and have whoever they'd chosen Epic Teleport to the Gate right now.

I found a Pathfinder template for demonic possession when the affected gets some demonic power but not a total meld. It seems appropriate to me for V to get some demonic powers because in other media the possessed get strange and unnatural abilities. At a minimum I demand he gets a make over and evil word balloons

edit:formating,

[Nymrod]

Indeed, a fully spliced V under the control of one of the IFCC would be too powerful for this comic. V lost to Xykon primarily due to poor, poor tactics (and having lost the Necromancer before fight a lich). If Cedric controlled Darth V, he'd be able to wipe the map with everyone we've seen in this comic.

[137beth]

Another triple pager....wow

[Sir_Leorik]

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Actually, WE’VE never seen a tentacle come through a rift. All we know is what happens to them when they are destroyed. EVERYTHING else is told to us by others after the fact (yes, even Blackwing’s observation).

IF The Dark One was telling Red Cloak the truth, then he did see a tentacle come through the rift. Everything else he knows about the Snarl he got from the other Gods. Were they telling him the truth? Who knows… In short, Red Cloak’s and Xykon’s knowledge base is certainly questionable at best. Even if The Dark One is telling Red Cloak the truth, most of the Dark One’s own info is second hand. Xykon’s info is even further than that (and we KNOW Red Cloak is lying to him).

Likewise, our heroes only know about it from Shojo (who is known to lie). Even if he was telling the truth, he may be using faulty info as well.

Blackwing’s account is arguably the most reliable (no obvious reason to lie to V), so we could assume he’s accurately relaying what he saw. Now, is what he saw what is actually there?

In short, we should take ANYTHING we think we know with a grain of salt the size of the Abyss.

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V can determine if Blackwing is lying to her through the Empathic Link class feature that Wizards with Familiars have. Since V and Blackwing's relationship has only been improving since the OotS set sail for Sandsedge, my impression is that Blackwing was honest with V about what he saw in the Rift. That doesn't mean that V and Blackwing fully comprehend what Blackwing saw. Unfortunately, V decided not to share Blackwing's findings with Roy, since Roy and the others didn't remember that V had a familiar. (Stupid running gags! How many lives must you threaten?!

Redcloak believes the Lore of the Crimson Mantle implicitly. He learned the information the first time he donned the Mantle, and given how the info-dump occurred (imparted directly in his brain courtesy of the Dark One) and the traumatic deaths of his mother, older brother, younger sister, mentor and everyone else in his village but Right-Eye, there is no way he will ever question the plan. He was willing to murder Right-Eye and turn him into a Zombie just to keep Xykon safe and happy, so the plan could go forward. Thanks to the sunk-cost fallacy, Redcloak has no reason to question the info the Dark One gave him. Besides, something killed that Goblin Cleric and his chicken and erased them from reality itself. The Dark One might lie about the existence of a god-killing monstrosity in the center of the world, but why would the Dark One make up the bit with the chicken?

By the same token, I feel that the parts of Lord Shojo's story that relate to the Order of Scribble's quest should be accepted as fact, beginning with Mijung's death. The existence of the Gates is independently corroborated (we've seen every Gate except the one in Kraagor's Tomb in the online comic or SoD) as is the bad blood between Soon and Girard. Plus, even Lord Shojo couldn't make up Baron Pineapple.

There are parts of Lord Shojo's narrative that are corroborated by Redcloak in SoD, namely the death of the Eastern Pantheon and the pantheons agreeing not to fight over how they run the world. The Dark One seems to have learned this from Loki, Tiamat and Rat.

The real questions are,

a) how did the Order of the Scribble learn about the old world's destruction, since the pantheons keep that knowledge secret?

b) why did they believe it?

c) What if the information is true, but there were other things that the Order of the Scribble didn't learn? Or that the Dark One either didn't learn or withheld from Redcloak?

d) And who is Baron Pineapple?!? That's been bugging me for like seven years! (Just kidding! )

[HandofShadows]

Oh, crap.

[Ellye]

The Giant got put in something of a tight spot in terms of Varsuvius' ability to get through the wall. As everyone has already pointed ou, V certainly has the type of spell book that would allow him/her to blast through a wall, and as the character has noted "being prepared comes naturally." It's been something of a joke that V is ready for anything, but suddenly a wall proves to be a game-changing hurdle?

Whether or not the Giant foresaw this exact problem (though the well-timed intrusion of the IFCC indicates that he certainly did), the problem is answered at least in part by the fact that V's spell selection has actually been changing as an expression of his/her character development. This plus a long day that was not supposed to be combat-oriented means that the chances of having a handy spell that can effectively damage super-dungeon walls moves into the 'probable' range.

While I was initially put off by the plot-convenient lack of spells, the fact that the Giant was preparing us for this TWO HUNDRED STRIPS AGO as a real plot point speaks volumes (heh heh) about his planning and his ability to craft a story.

She might very wall have blasting spells, but didn't want to risk accidentally blasting the gate or her party members, or causing a cave-in.

[Sir_Leorik]

Since V is talking about wether the whole story of the Snarl is actually true or not, what do we readers think?
I personally think it is true, less because of what the order knows, but more of what knowledge was imparted on Redcloak. The Dark One would have no reason to lie to Redcloak, Redcloak would follow his commands anyways. So I do think the knowledge Redcloak has from TDO is not a deception and the TDO is a god afterall. How far could he be off?

The Dark One could have plenty of reasons not to tell the Bearer of the Crimson Mantle everything he knows. However there is one detail in the story Redcloak told Xykon in SoD which convinces me that the Dark One is on the level with Redcloak:

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The chicken. Think about it, the bit with the Goblin Cleric trying to send a living thing through the Rift and he chose a chicken. That sort of detail is so ridiculously improbable that it must be true. It is so silly, yet it rings true to life: haven't you ever needed to send a canary into a coal mine to see if it was safe for your party, and all you had was the rooster your cleric has to remind him to pray for spell slots in the morning? At least the Goblin Cleric's soul was destroyed so he didn't need to be exposed to ridicule in the afterlife: "You were killed by an eldritch horror while you were holding a chicken? Seriously?"

[Killer Angel]

With a so long page, I knew there was a cliffhanger... but the last panel left me speechless.

[Knight.Anon]

V was cut off by the fiends after saying four words.

[Forikroder]

what i dont get is, if they are about to possess him, why is the fiend saying now? there the ones who hold his debt there shouldnt be a third party they need to coordinate with they should be working the magic themselves

[Sir_Leorik]

what i dont get is, if they are about to possess him, why is the fiend saying now? there the ones who hold his debt there shouldnt be a third party they need to coordinate with they should be working the magic themselves

They are coordinating among themselves. They have a limited amount of time to work with and were waiting for the opportune time to invoke any of it. They can't afford to squander something as precious as a chance to possess a mortal on the Prime Material Plane and forward their goals.

[attriel]

Erm. Belkar WAS present. Look here. What surprised me, that no one already called it in the first pages (or did I miss it?)

There is only a tiny bit of explanation left for Belkar not knowing about it:
Yes, he was playing with Scruffy and a String in that panel. Still, it's amazing that he couldn't remember that story AT ALL, since there was death and destruction in it.

I completely forgot that Shojo went through it all again (off panel).

Clearly, the Scruffinator was more important, however.

[Sir_Leorik]

I completely forgot that Shojo went through it all again (off panel).

Clearly, the Scruffinator was more important, however.

Clearly.

[Porthos]

what i dont get is, if they are about to possess him, why is the fiend saying now? there the ones who hold his debt there shouldnt be a third party they need to coordinate with they should be working the magic themselves

Because it helps the audience understand what is happening.

[elros]

Now that is how you make a cliffhanger!

There is a reason by the IFCC waited until after V got OOTS's attention- they don't want the gate destroyed! The IFCC has Sabine in their employ, but since she's out of commission, they must want to stall until she returns. But given the foreshadowing, Sabine will not betray Nale.
All of this is coming together for some awesome plot lines.
Makes me wish for more updates, but I cannot complain after today's three-fer.

[Bustamouse]

A little late to the party for this part but I still wanted to give my comeuppance to those who doubted me when I said the fiends were going to take control of V during a fight for the gate. Now I thought it would be at the last gate but eh we can't all be perfect.

A couple thematic elements to consider, all of the gates will be destroyed, that is just an expectation from how the story has developed. I also think the plot by the IFCC is more then just "sowing chaos" like a lot of people believe. I think it is more I'm vein with what The Dark One and Redcloak have planned, they want to change something. I mean only one if them is Chaotic Evil, would a creature of law be so willing to simply seek to destroy all semblance of law and order?

I'm not sure if Darth V is returning but if we are going to say a 3-way battle between the forces of evil for the gate (featuring a terrified OotS) then I suppose the fiends will be splicing some souls back into V to insure that V would be able to hold their own in the fight. (I think V is a guy btw, but I thought gender neutrality was most appropriate when discussing V)

[Porthos]

Erm. Belkar WAS present. Look here. What surprised me, that no one already called it in the first pages (or did I miss it?)

There is only a tiny bit of explanation left for Belkar not knowing about it:
Yes, he was playing with Scruffy and a String in that panel. Still, it's amazing that he couldn't remember that story AT ALL, since there was death and destruction in it.

I completely forgot that Shojo went through it all again (off panel).

Clearly, the Scruffinator was more important, however.

Which might even be referenced in the comic:

: No, that may not be accurate!!
: About the chase scene?
: Oh, no, you mean 'cause of the planet I saw in the Azure City rift?

If so, nice work, Rich.

[Arrowstorm122]

V was cut off by the fiends after saying four words.

It wasn't for all the wrong reasons though. We've already been over that prophecy anyway. Unless Rich lied in the book.

[Grey Watcher]

Will the IFCC's control be as externally obvious as a lot of us seem to be thinking? I mean, with all the talk of the return of Darth V, could we not get something much more subtle, where V still seems to be himself, personality and all, maybe even continuing his shouting and knocking unabated but with his motives and morals twisted to the IFCC's goals rather than his own.

All I know is I'm anxiously awaiting the next installment!

[hamishspence]

The wording they used- that V's soul would spend time with them, in return for their gift- seems to imply that V's soul will therefore not be in V's body.

[Porthos]

Will the IFCC's control be as externally obvious as a lot of us seem to be thinking? I mean, with all the talk of the return of Darth V, could we not get something much more subtle, where V still seems to be himself, personality and all, maybe even continuing his shouting and knocking unabated but with his motives and morals twisted to the IFCC's goals rather than his own.

All I know is I'm anxiously awaiting the next installment!

Yeah, I've got a related question. How obvious will this be to Blackwing? Just what is going to happen to him, anyway. Will V try to 'forget' his existence. Will Blackwing go 'poof' in an attempt to get away, if he figures out what is up? Or will Blackwing just hightail it out of there in an attempt to warn the order that the excrement has just hit the fan?

Lots of different directions this could go in.

[Nymrod]

The thing is, what happens next? I don't mean what the IFCC do through V. I mean what V does after that. Will he know that he was possessed? It seems likely. The IFCC could dismiss Blackwing and try and enact whatever plan they have without moving V from her spot or letting anyone in the order see her, but that would not be simple.
If V knows that at any time he may be possessed by the fiends, what will he do? Staying with the order sounds pretty irresponsible after that. Rules-wise I'd have him keep protection from evil active at all times if he can but that may not work due to the special nature of the contract. Would he just run away to stay somewhere in solitude so as not to endanger those he cares for?

[Shale]

The wording they used- that V's soul would spend time with them, in return for their gift- seems to imply that V's soul will therefore not be in V's body.

And having V's body fall lifeless to the ground for half an hour would stop the yelling and knocking.

[hamishspence]

If, while V's soul is absent, they get control of V's body, as a puppet, so to speak, I'm wondering what they'll do with it.

[atatassault]

I'm surprised nobody has commented on Qarr's eyes in Panel's 1 and 3 so far. I thought that was a cool "psst, audience, check this out".