Eliminating "Special Snowflake" syndrome (Help me fluff some crunch part II)

[Giegue]

"The thing that separates a cleric from a favored soul or PF oracle is that element of worship. In the case of the favored soul or oracle, the God or gods give them their power as a blessing(or curse), many times without them even excepting it willingly or knowing until they grow older. The cleric on the other hand, actively petitions their God for magic through worship. Wisdom is their casting stat because it is, at least in most cases, the stat that is tied to traditional forms of worship. While I suppose one could justify, say, doing scholarly work tied to one's faith on a spiritual level as well as an academic one as a form of worship, the issue becomes why there is virtually nobody else that your God grants magic to for such alternate forms of worship.

This is my main gripe with lost traditions. It creates what is essentially a very annoying(at least fluff-wise) "special snowflake" scenario in which your character is essentially the only person in the entire world who gains divine spells in the way they do. That's why I think it's REALLY odd and just "wrong" fluff wise. Pretty much every NPC cleric you meet will cast off of wisdom. Heck, if you happen to meet a worshiper of the same deity who is a wisdom-based NPC this scenario becomes even more awkward and your character more odd. It's not so much the justification itself that is difficult to create but rather rectifying the very real "special snowflake" scenario it creates."

In a discussion of using the feat lost traditions to swap cleric casting to a stat other then wisdom, I was able to reach what is really at the heart of the issue that I have been non-stop posting about recently. What is that, you ask? It is the "special snowflake" syndrome that the feat lost traditions creates, as spelled out by the quoted passage above. The point of this thread is to find a way to rectify that issue. If anybody has any ideas on how to eliminate the "special snowflake" syndrome that having an int or cha-based cleric via lost traditions creates, I would be very grateful to hear it.

If you are wondering, lost traditions is a 3rd party feat that allows you to swap your casting stat to any mental score you want. Just thought I'd make that clear.

[Gray Mage]

If you can work with your DM, you could simply make it be something that happen with a certain frequency, while still being relatively uncommon (something like 30% of clerics have this feat). So while it isn't the default, it's still not something only you'd have.

Also keep in mind that PCs are kind of special snowflakes already, since they probably have better stats than most.

[Giegue]

That could work. I'll have to ask the DM, though. However, if the DM says that's too much work on their part, is there any other options over which I have more control?

[Gray Mage]

That could work. I'll have to ask the DM, though. However, if the DM says that's too much work on their part, is there any other options over which I have more control?

Well, it'd be as much work as it'd take to say that it's not so rare.

If you'd fluff it as being charecteristic of a monastery or a specific temple, but someone wiped them all out but you, as your backstory, would you still count that as being too snowflaky or depending too much on DM? The "destroyed hometown" is a bit of cliche backstory, and part of your goals could be to pass it along again.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I question why Wisdom is the stat associated with worship. I raised this point in the other thread, too. Nothing in the description of the ability talks about faith. Faith doesn't have anything to do with common sense or perceptiveness, and it's generally pretty separate from willpower. The only connection I can see is that the crunch pushes Wisdom as a divine casting stat... but Favored Souls involve charisma, as does a cleric's turning ability, and archivists use intelligence, so there you go.

A character can have true, unshakable faith regardless of any numbers on their sheet; thus, they can use any stat for casting and still have their abilities be granted to them as a reward for said faith.

As for "special snowflake" syndrome... just don't role-play it. After all, no-one else can see what's written on your sheet. Fluff-wise, your character gets his spells from his god just as any other priest does.

[Gray Mage]

I question why Wisdom is the stat associated with worship. I raised this point in the other thread, too. Nothing in the description of the ability talks about faith. Faith doesn't have anything to do with common sense or perceptiveness, and it's generally pretty separate from willpower. The only connection I can see is that the crunch pushes Wisdom as a divine casting stat... but Favored Souls involve charisma, as does a cleric's turning ability, and archivists use intelligence, so there you go.

Part of the fluff of wisdom is that it's the ability to "tune with and aware of one’s surroundings", so maybe since the power is external (a god/nature grants them to you), a higher wis would mean that the character is better connected/in harmony with the power source?

[Grod_The_Giant]

Part of the fluff of wisdom is that it's the ability to "tune with and aware of one’s surroundings", so maybe since the power is external (a god/nature grants them to you), a higher wis would mean that the character is better connected/in harmony with the power source?

Eh. One way of fluffing faith, but not the only. What about a hellfire-and-brimstone type preacher? Wouldn't Charisma make more sense than Wisdom for him?

[Giegue]

That's still a tad too sue/snowflakey for my tastes, sadly. The concept could work if said temple still existed and if there is more then one, and they where fairly widespread. The only issue then would be why we don't run into such people if they are so widespread. The only thing I can think of is that whatever they worship is totally evil to the point that simply worshiping it would be considered a highly evil act and most likely a crime in any non-evil state. They'd be less a traditional church which offers divine services and more of a cult that doesn't like to make itself known/keeps itself well-hidden. If the DM would allow me to give some "spoilers" regarding the campaign I could even have said cult be a rival to the tiamat cult that acts as the main antagonists of the module, and seeking to bring it down so it can come into the region and establish a foothold with one less enemy breathing down it's neck. If I decide to go int-based instead of cha-based I even have the "cover story" that I am an archivist, and with the trickery domain, which I intend to take, I'll have the bluff score to actually pull off such a cover.

The only issue with this is that I am, essentially, adding an entire faction into my DM's world. However, since he's basically let me homebrew my own God....I may stand a better chance at this going through then I think...

EDIT: Double Ninja'ed


Anyway..not RPing it is NOT AN OPTION AT ALL. No matter what, that feat will AUTOMATCLY, BY DEFAULT create special snowflake syndrome unless others in the setting can cast off that stat. END OF STORY....and not RPing it is not an option because my RL wisdom is so low that people will either A) Think I am RPing badly/wrong because they don't know I'm not wis-based or B) Know I'm not wis-based, and thus special snowflake syndrome comes back into the picture.

[navar100]

The Special Destiny trope works fine. As part of campaign plot there is a major threat to the world of some BBEG, and it is this character who is to be the one to stop it. His friends, the party, are as well of course. They could also be destined in their own way or they're just that awesome as heroes, which is why the Destined One has managed to join such a group.

[Gray Mage]

That's still a tad too sue/snowflakey for my tastes, sadly. The concept could work if said temple still existed and if there is more then one, and they where fairly widespread. The only issue then would be why we don't run into such people if they are so widespread. The only thing I can think of is that whatever they worship is totally evil to the point that simply worshiping it would be considered a highly evil act and most likely a crime in any non-evil state. They'd be less a traditional church which offers divine services and more of a cult that doesn't like to make itself known/keeps itself well-hidden. If the DM would allow me to give some "spoilers" regarding the campaign I could even have said cult be a rival to the tiamat cult that acts as the main antagonists of the module, and seeking to bring it down so it can come into the region and establish a foothold with one less enemy breathing down their neck. If I decide to go int-based instead of cha-based I even have the "cover story" that I am an archivist, and with the trickery domain, which I intend to take, I'll have the bluff score to actually pull off such a cover.

The only issue with this is that I am, essentially, adding an entire faction into my DM's world. However, since he's basically let me homebrew my own God....I may stand a better chance at this going through then I think...

EDIT: Double Ninja'ed

Well, just because it's more then one temple, it doesn't mean it's common. They could mostly keep to themselves, with you travelling around being the exception (if it's a neutral god, that'd work, IMO), and make around, let's say 10% of all divine classes, so it's not like you'll meet one of them in every corner, but maybe twice or thrice in all campain. Would that be acceptable?

Eh. One way of fluffing faith, but not the only. What about a hellfire-and-brimstone type preacher? Wouldn't Charisma make more sense than Wisdom for him?

Well, charisma would influence how he affects others, but even if he has a strong impact on a passer by, if his connection to the deity is weak, even with faith, his magical powers would suffer.

[Giegue]

Perhaps, but I like the evil idea better, since I intended to play as an evil character anyway.

[Gray Mage]

Perhaps, but I like the evil idea better, since I intended to play as an evil character anyway.

As long as it isn't a TN god you can still be evil.

[Deophaun]

I question why Wisdom is the stat associated with worship. I raised this point in the other thread, too. Nothing in the description of the ability talks about faith.

I think the problem you are having can be found right here. You start off talking about "worship," and then, for no reason at all, start talking about "faith." The two are not the same.

Faith doesn't have anything to do with common sense or perceptiveness,

For instance, if you talked about "worship" here, you'd see that this doesn't follow. Worship does have to do with perceptiveness, namely figuring out the deity's will or how best to glorify it.

There's the old trope of the crazy preacher that interprets whatever text he's using to justify his own psychosis: that would be a high faith individual, but low on the wisdom scale. Then you have the trope of the monk whose faith or devotion allows him to transcend physical suffering. That would be high faith, high wisdom. These are at polar opposites on the scale of worship. One subverts worship for his own petty ends, and the other uses worship to become one with the object of his faith, and it is wisdom that is the difference, not faith.

You also need to ask yourself how faith can even exist in an environment where gods and demons and the afterlife are all scientific fact. If something is right there in front of you, burning undead and resurrecting people, it's no longer faith to profess its existence or power. Tough to fuel religious power on something that is readily crowded out by physical proof. (The bablefish paradox)



As for the special snowflake thing: it's fluff. Change it if you don't like it. Maybe you're not a special snowflake. Maybe your character is Doing It Wrong, and the other clergy has a good laugh at the hours of additional study you need to go through. Maybe people with high Charisma and low Wisdom just don't seek out the religious life, preferring to spend their time wooing women and spending their days wages on drink. You aren't a special snowflake. You're just odd. What people think as "standard" is just selection bias: people who aren't wise don't go into divine classes. Or, perhaps there's causation: people who go into divine classes receive training that improves their wisdom. For whatever reason, you didn't receive that training, or couldn't hack that training, so you've been "cheating" by using your other skills to compensate.

[Giegue]

That dosen't work fluff-wise though because clerics receive their spells from worshiping the gods. If a god is giving you spells without you worshiping them, that's a favored soul or an oracle, not a cleric.

[Deophaun]

That dosen't work fluff-wise though because clerics receive their spells from worshiping the gods. If a god is giving you spells without you worshiping them, that's a favored soul or an oracle, not a cleric.

Well, if you've decided that a) you don't like the fluff and b) the fluff is immutable, then there's nothing we can really do here, is there?

[Gray Mage]

Do you have a god in mind? If not, then if you pick a LN one you can be LE and fluff as I wrote in post #10. Most would be neutral and thus fluffed as keeping to themselves a lot, while you, being evil, can be more active. As I understood, the problem with that post was that you wanted to be evil as well.

[Giegue]

Yeah, but that would raise the question why a truly evil character would worship a non-evil god. It also makes RPing it out a lot harder because I cannot be a truly nasty villain like I want to be because my god, not being evil, would frown upon a follower doing too much evil. I don't want to be stripped of all my powers and have to seek an atonement spell, such a thing is a major pain in the ***.

As for possible solutions, I am looking into the validity of a beguiler/archivist mystic theurge using alternate source spell as an early entry and able learner to keep my "skillmonkey" part live while taking archivist levels. So far I have gotten few responses, but the one I did get largely said that it is not a bad idea, so I may eschew cleric entirely and just go beguiler 1/archivist 3/mystic Theurge 1 as my starting level 5 character, especially since we already have a dedicated caster in the wizard and I only am one CL behind a fullclass archivist, with the benefits of both the beguiler's skillmonkey-ness and having another spell list + more spell slots then anybody.

[Sutremaine]

That dosen't work fluff-wise though because clerics receive their spells from worshiping the gods.

Low-wisdom characters can worship gods just as hard as high-Wis ones can.

[Gray Mage]

Yeah, but that would raise the question why a truly evil character would worship a non-evil god. It also makes RPing it out a lot harder because I cannot be a truly nasty villain like I want to be because my god, not being evil, would frown upon a follower doing too much evil. I don't want to be stripped of all my powers and have to seek an atonement spell, such a thing is a major pain in the ***.

Dunno, depends on the deity. By the rules, as long as it's one step away (with the exception of TN), you can be a cleric of that deity.

Remember that evil comes in many flavors. For example, Wee Jas, a LN deity of death and magic, could mean that someone LE could be an assassin, or be more amoral. Sure, some kinds of evil, doesn't fit, but you can't win them all.

Or you could try my first idea and speak with your DM. If it's something more uncommon, but isn't restricted to a particular temple/faith, you'd be any kind of evil you want.

There's a third option as well. What once were something particular to a TN temple, could have been spread out. Maybe one of these clerics turned NE and became faithfull of another deity, but recently enough that only one temple of this evil deity has this characteristic right now (your character would be of this temple). Would that be too special as well? Confronting the clerics of that original temple could be a nice hook.

[Giegue]

Anything that there is only one in the world of is too "special snowflake" for me. However, as I said, I am looking into the validity of the mystic theurge option so I may not even need to take cleric.

[Gray Mage]

Anything that there is only one in the world of is too "special snowflake" for me. However, as I said, I am looking into the validity of the mystic theurge option so I may not even need to take cleric.

Well, it's many temples, but a small number of evil ones. Think of it like this, you're not the only evil cleric that can do that, but one of them.

Edit: Still, what would fit you the most would be getting your DM to make it not so rare without making it restrictive to a temple/god.

[Giegue]

Yeah, but that still requires rolling a successful diplomacy check with the DM, which is why I MUST have a backup plan, especially since my mystic theurge plan won't work anymore due to the early entry trick not working with beguiler....

[Grod_The_Giant]

Well, if you've decided that a) you don't like the fluff and b) the fluff is immutable, then there's nothing we can really do here, is there?

This does seem to be the underlying issue, no offense, mate...

[Gray Mage]

Yeah, but that still requires rolling a successful diplomacy check with the DM, which is why I MUST have a backup plan, especially since my mystic theurge plan won't work anymore due to the early entry trick not working with beguiler....

I'm afraid the backup plan would involve some kind of concession, though.

What kind of evil do you want to be and what gods can you pick?

[Giegue]

The least you could do is suggest to me other classes/ideas then? As I said, the party lacks a divine fullcaster and a skillmonkey. I was considering beguiler or archivist. I am not sure which the party will need more, a divine fullcaster or a skillmonkey. I most likely won't be playing cleric due to all the RP issues that it creates(and numerous threads those issues have spawned), but any other class is fair game at the moment so long as it is not wisdom-based or can be made not-wis based(such as the Archivist and Spirit Shaman.) The module in question is red hand of doom, and I am not sure which will be needed more, divine fullcaster or skillmonkey...

EDIT: Ninja'ed again -____-

But anyway, there is no pre-set gods as far as I know. We can basically choose any god from any D&D setting or even make our own. The only pre-set deity that is confirmed is Tiamat, due to the adventure path we are running. Also, neutral deities are not an option since as I said, I want to do a fair bit of evil. If I do too much evil, I'll lose my powers if I worship a neutral deity and REALLY don't want to have to deal with that. Thus, an evil deity would be ideal. As far as what kind of evil, neutral evil. Selfish, power-hungry, tricky, manipulative neutral evil that cares more about obtaining and holding power then anything else. Whether that means power in the form of political influence or power in the form of knowladge(or both) remains to be seen and depends on whether I choose Int or Cha as my casting stat.

[Gray Mage]

But anyway, there is no pre-set gods as far as I know. We can basically choose any god from any D&D setting or even make our own. The only pre-set deity that is confirmed is Tiamat, due to the adventure path we are running.

Ok, my final advice is pick a LN or CN god that your Evil character can worship, play the neutral as innactive card to explain why you don't see it everywhere. Or do one of the other things I've said. I'm afraid I have no other ideas.

[Giegue]

No other ideas for classes other then cleric? Or even ideas on what role is less needed, skillmonkey or divine caster?

[Gray Mage]

No other ideas for classes other then cleric? Or even ideas on what role is less needed, skillmonkey or divine caster?

Between those archtypes, I'd guess divine caster would be more needed. I don't remember right now any skillmonkey-ish divine classes, unless you're ok with homebrew (and even then it'd be a PRC).

Why don't you want to use wis anyway, if you don't mind me asking?

[Giegue]

I don't want to use wisdom because my RL wisdom is, at best 8. Therefore, I could never RP high wis correctly and don't want to play a character I cannot RP. That's the only reason I don't want to go wis-based. I am, as of now, highly considering using human paragon + Able Learner in conjunction with archivist, but am not sure that is enough to cover the "skillmonkey" role. I have posted another thread about that topic, though, so hopefully I'll get some responses.

[Gray Mage]

I don't want to use wisdom because my RL wisdom is, at best 8. Therefore, I could never RP high wis correctly and don't want to play a character I cannot RP. That's the only reason I don't want to go wis-based. I am, as of now, highly considering using human paragon + Able Learner in conjunction with archivist, but am not sure that is enough to cover the "skillmonkey" role. I have posted another thread about that topic, though, so hopefully I'll get some responses.

Are you or your DM ok with homebrew? There's this, although you'd need a way to get a domain as a Favored Soul or Archivist if you don't go with cleric.