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    Default Healer Fix Spell List (3.5 PEACH)

    I've started working on a fix for the Healer class found in the Minatures Handbook. Thus far I've made some significant changes to their spell list, and before I go any further I'd like to get some feedback on roughly where the new spell list by itself would put them tier-wise.

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    0--create water, cure minor wounds, deathwatch, detect magic, detect poison, light, mending, purify food and drink, read magic

    1--bless, bless water, conviction, cure light wounds, delay disease, goodberry, lesser vigor, protection from evil, remove fear, remove paralysis, resurgence, sanctuary, speak with animals, summon monster I

    2--aid, calm emotions, consecrate, cure moderate wounds, delay poison, divine protection, gentle repose, lesser restoration, make whole, protection from negative energy, remove blindness/deafness, remove disease, resist energy, shield other, stabilize, stay the hand, summon monster II

    3--close wounds, create water, cure serious wounds, daylight, dispel magic, magic circle against evil, mass aid, mass conviction, mass lesser vigor, mass resist energy, mass resurgence, neutralize poison, prayer, protection from energy, remove curse, restoration, status, summon monster III, vigor, water breathing

    4--air walk, cure critical wounds, death ward, delay death, freedom of movement, lesser planar ally, mass cure light wounds, mass shield of faith, panacea, summon monster IV, tongues

    5--atonement, break enchantment, greater vigor, hallow, mass cure moderate wounds, plane shift, raise dead, revivify, stone to flesh, summon monster V, true seeing

    6--greater dispel magic, greater restoration, heal, heroes feast, mass cure serious wounds, planar ally, regenerate, summon monster VI, vigorous circle, wind walk

    7--fortunate fate, greater plane shift, holy word, mass cure critical wounds, mass restoration, repulsion, resurrection, summon monster VII

    8--chain dispel, discern location, greater planar ally, holy aura, mass death ward, mass heal, summon monster VIII

    9--foresight, gate, miracle, summon monster IX, true resurrection, undeath’s eternal foe


    My main concern is that giving them access to the Summon Monster and Planar Ally lines is that I've shifted their power level too far in the other direction.
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    Default Re: Healer Fix Spell List (3.5 PEACH)

    The buffs are a nice, fitting boost. The summons, not so much. I don't know about power-- though with all the support spells, they could be pretty nasty summoners-- but they just don't seem to fit with the theme of the party's best friend.
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    Default Re: Healer Fix Spell List (3.5 PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    The buffs are a nice, fitting boost. The summons, not so much. I don't know about power-- though with all the support spells, they could be pretty nasty summoners-- but they just don't seem to fit with the theme of the party's best friend.
    I had two main reasons for adding the summoning spells;
    1) It seemed to fit with their receiving Gate as a 9th level spell, and with most healing spells being Conjuration.

    2) More importantly, it seemed like a good way to give them something to do in combat besides "I cast another defensive buff" and in-combat healing.
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    Default Re: Healer Fix Spell List (3.5 PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Alabenson View Post
    I had two main reasons for adding the summoning spells;
    1) It seemed to fit with their receiving Gate as a 9th level spell, and with most healing spells being Conjuration.

    2) More importantly, it seemed like a good way to give them something to do in combat besides "I cast another defensive buff" and in-combat healing.
    1) I'd have dropped Gate altogether. Never made sense why they got that one.
    2) That is an issue, but I'm not sure this is the best way to address it. I admit, the archetype really doesn't lend itself to a very active combat role...
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    Default Re: Healer Fix Spell List (3.5 PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    1) I'd have dropped Gate altogether. Never made sense why they got that one.
    2) That is an issue, but I'm not sure this is the best way to address it. I admit, the archetype really doesn't lend itself to a very active combat role...
    One of the major goals of fixing Healer was to give them a useful, active role to play in combat. Spellcasting-wise, I wanted to avoid direct damage, debuffing/crowd control and personal-only buffs, which left me with summoning and illusions/enchantments, which the Beguiler already does perfectly well. Since the class already received Gate for whatever reason (I'll agree that it didn't really mesh with how the class was originally written), I decided to just go with the summoning route, since it seemed to be the least in conflict with the archetype.
    If brute force isn't working, that just means you're not using enough of it.

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    Default Re: Healer Fix Spell List (3.5 PEACH)

    <shrug> Your fix.
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    STaRS: A non-narrativeist, generic rules-light system.
    Grod's Guide to Greatness, 2e: A big book of player options for 5e.
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    Giants and Graveyards: My collected 3.5 class fixes and more.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    Grod's Law: You cannot and should not balance bad mechanics by making them annoying to use

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    Default Re: Healer Fix Spell List (3.5 PEACH)

    this is the spell list I gave my Healer Re-Tool

    Spell List
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    Healer Spell List
    Healers choose their spells from the following list.
    0: create water, cure minor wounds, deathwatch, detect magic,detect poison, disrupt undead, guidance, light, mending, purify food and drink, read magic.
    1st: bless, bless water, conviction, cure light wounds, delay disease, endure elements, faith healing, goodberry, healthful rest, inhibit, protection from evil, omen of peril, remove fear, remove paralysis, sanctuary, speak with animals, lesser vigor.
    2nd: aid, augury, calm emotions, close wounds, consecrate, cure moderate wounds, delay poison, divine protection, gentle repose, hand of divinity, healing lorecall, healing sting, hold person, living undeath, resist energy, remove blindness/deafness, remove disease, lesser restoration, lesser spell immunity.
    3rd: mass aid, cloak of bravery, mass conviction, create food and water, cure serious wounds, daylight, grace, haste, heroism, holy storm, mass lesser vigor, neutralize poison, prayer, remove curse, mass resist energy, restoration, tongues, slow, spark of life, status, vigor.
    4th: cure critical wounds, crushing despair, death ward, delay death, freedom of movement, mass cure light wounds, panacea, positive energy aura, restoration, sheltered vitality, spell immunity, stoneskin.
    5th: atonement, break enchantment, commune, cure grevious wounds, mass cure moderate wounds, hallow, greater heroism, heal, life's grace, raise dead, rejuvenation cocoon, revivify, stone to flesh, true seeing, greater vigor.
    6th: anger of the noonday sun, anti-life shell, greater restoration, forbiddance, heroes’ feast, mass cure serious wounds, regenerate, superior resistance, righteous wrath of the faithful, undead to death, vigorous circle.
    7th: aura of vitality, banishment, mass cure critical wounds, eyebite, fortunate fate, holy star, renewal pact, repulsion, resurrection, mass restoration.
    8th: cocoon, mass death ward, discern location, holy aura, mass heal, mind blank, greater spell immunity.
    9th: foresight, gate, true resurrection, undeath's eternal foe, wail of the banshee.


    I wanted to stay with teh same feel and concept as the original healer, SO i expanded upon the healer's healing repertoire. as well as adding in more supportive, and defensive spells. as well as inclduign spells that deal with undead and outsiders.

    so basically the opposite of what you are doing with giving them summogs, because teh way i have understood it is that a Conjuration ( and transmutation) was what made the wizard 'tier' 1.

    Healing was orignally necromancy ( you know dealing with life/death.. honestly 3rd ed making healing conjuration make no sense to me at all)

    WHilst my goal and your goal of expanding teh spell lit are at odds with each other ( i wanted to keep the same 'soul' of the class and you want to give them sumons) my version of the healer is still a
    Quote Originally Posted by Alabenson
    useful, active role to play in combat. Spellcasting-wise
    and my spell list allows one to be a healer and have a proactive not just a reactive style of casting. So maybe you could glean a couple spell from my spell list.

    There are still a lot of spelLs that fit the theme of the healer you are leaving out. but i guess if you wanted the healer to be about just conjuration you would need to add in grease, stinking cloud, glitterdust, black tentacles, and teleportation.

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    Default Re: Healer Fix Spell List (3.5 PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by ngilop View Post
    this is the spell list I gave my Healer Re-Tool

    Spell List
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    Healer Spell List
    Healers choose their spells from the following list.
    0: create water, cure minor wounds, deathwatch, detect magic,detect poison, disrupt undead, guidance, light, mending, purify food and drink, read magic.
    1st: bless, bless water, conviction, cure light wounds, delay disease, endure elements, faith healing, goodberry, healthful rest, inhibit, protection from evil, omen of peril, remove fear, remove paralysis, sanctuary, speak with animals, lesser vigor.
    2nd: aid, augury, calm emotions, close wounds, consecrate, cure moderate wounds, delay poison, divine protection, gentle repose, hand of divinity, healing lorecall, healing sting, hold person, living undeath, resist energy, remove blindness/deafness, remove disease, lesser restoration, lesser spell immunity.
    3rd: mass aid, cloak of bravery, mass conviction, create food and water, cure serious wounds, daylight, grace, haste, heroism, holy storm, mass lesser vigor, neutralize poison, prayer, remove curse, mass resist energy, restoration, tongues, slow, spark of life, status, vigor.
    4th: cure critical wounds, crushing despair, death ward, delay death, freedom of movement, mass cure light wounds, panacea, positive energy aura, restoration, sheltered vitality, spell immunity, stoneskin.
    5th: atonement, break enchantment, commune, cure grevious wounds, mass cure moderate wounds, hallow, greater heroism, heal, life's grace, raise dead, rejuvenation cocoon, revivify, stone to flesh, true seeing, greater vigor.
    6th: anger of the noonday sun, anti-life shell, greater restoration, forbiddance, heroes’ feast, mass cure serious wounds, regenerate, superior resistance, righteous wrath of the faithful, undead to death, vigorous circle.
    7th: aura of vitality, banishment, mass cure critical wounds, eyebite, fortunate fate, holy star, renewal pact, repulsion, resurrection, mass restoration.
    8th: cocoon, mass death ward, discern location, holy aura, mass heal, mind blank, greater spell immunity.
    9th: foresight, gate, true resurrection, undeath's eternal foe, wail of the banshee.


    I wanted to stay with teh same feel and concept as the original healer, SO i expanded upon the healer's healing repertoire. as well as adding in more supportive, and defensive spells. as well as inclduign spells that deal with undead and outsiders.

    so basically the opposite of what you are doing with giving them summogs, because teh way i have understood it is that a Conjuration ( and transmutation) was what made the wizard 'tier' 1.

    Healing was orignally necromancy ( you know dealing with life/death.. honestly 3rd ed making healing conjuration make no sense to me at all)

    WHilst my goal and your goal of expanding teh spell lit are at odds with each other ( i wanted to keep the same 'soul' of the class and you want to give them sumons) my version of the healer is still a and my spell list allows one to be a healer and have a proactive not just a reactive style of casting. So maybe you could glean a couple spell from my spell list.
    I think we have a disagreement as to what the 'soul' of the Healer class actually was; several of the spells on your list (hold person, crushing despair, anger of the noonday sun, and especially wail of the banshee) are exactly the type of spells I felt should not be included in the Healer's spell list.

    Quote Originally Posted by ngilop View Post
    There are still a lot of spelLs that fit the theme of the healer you are leaving out. but i guess if you wanted the healer to be about just conjuration you would need to add in grease, stinking cloud, glitterdust, black tentacles, and teleportation.
    If you had read my earlier posts, I specifically wanted to avoid giving the Healer direct damage/crowd control/debuff spells. It's not about being Conjuration, but more about giving the Healer the capacity to actively participate in combat without directly attacking the opponents.
    Last edited by Alabenson; 2013-07-01 at 11:50 AM.
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    When in doubt, set something on fire. If not in doubt, set something on fire anyway.

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    Default Re: Healer Fix Spell List (3.5 PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Alabenson View Post
    giving the Healer the capacity to actively participate in combat without directly attacking the opponents.
    And that's very, very hard. Party-boosting spells tend to be ongoing, and healing is not something you really want/need to be doing continually.

    Personally, I feel like a non-violent spell like Hold Person is more fitting than summoning a celestial lion to eat faces, but, you know, personal preference. If you want summon spells to be a big part of the class, I'd be sure to offer some class features to support that-- otherwise they can look tacked on.
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    STaRS: A non-narrativeist, generic rules-light system.
    Grod's Guide to Greatness, 2e: A big book of player options for 5e.
    Grod's Grimoire of the Grotesque: An even bigger book of variant and expanded rules for 5e.
    Giants and Graveyards: My collected 3.5 class fixes and more.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    Grod's Law: You cannot and should not balance bad mechanics by making them annoying to use

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    Default Re: Healer Fix Spell List (3.5 PEACH)

    Drop Gate, Summons, and the Planar spells.

    Focus on protective spells and more harmless battlefield control spells. Consider spells that slow opponents down, that create shelters, that create obstacles, that distract opponents, that give you the time to minister your aid.

    I think ngilop has a solid trajectory. Definitely include "friendly fire" as a spell.

    Just my 2 cents.
    Last edited by ShriekingDrake; 2013-07-01 at 06:34 PM.

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    Default Re: Healer Fix Spell List (3.5 PEACH)

    I agree that gate doesn't seem to fit the 'peaceful' motif of the class. You might have to resign yourself to not doing much in combat. Although some non-harmful battlefield control spells (solid fog and the like) could work. You could add some divination/problem solving spells, or spells that help in social situations, acting as a backup rogue or bard. Not every problem in D&D is solved by combat.

    The most common fix for a healer that I think I've seen is to gestalt it with another low tier class; fighter, monk, knight, swashbuckler, soulknife, expert or the like.

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    Default Re: Healer Fix Spell List (3.5 PEACH)

    Don't worry about summons and planar ally making the healer overpowered. Those spells range from very weak (low level summons) to awesome (planar ally when used to pull Djinn) but they're by no means going to break the class.
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    Default Re: Healer Fix Spell List (3.5 PEACH)

    However they don't really have anything to do with what the class is about -being a true healbot without fearing being distracted with something else-. Just giving healers access to the vigor lines goes a long way towards improving the class standing. I would venture that giving a slight bonus to healer's hands at fourth or fifth level could greatly help (or heck allow healers to cast spontaneously from their limited list), maybe evne allow the healer to make all weapon damage with proficientcy non-lethal.

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