Hello, can someone help me with player problem?

[Septimus Faber]

Hi everyone, just wondering if someone can help me with an issue I'm having with the other PCs in our DM's 3.5e campaign.

They're great guys and really good friends, but they seem to have it in for me. I'm on my seventh character in about 6 months now. On one occasion one of the other PCs killed me seemingly unprovoked (in a manner which I will not go into). Another time, a spellcaster killed my very promising Githzerai Monk/Sorcerer, and the PCs looted my character's corpse, taking (among other things) a ring of Spider Climb and a valuable Brilliant Energy Quarterstaff, even though they already had a brilliant energy weapon!

Has anyone else ever experienced anything like this? Can anyone help me with it?

[Jay R]

A. Ask them. It could simply be that they are PvP type players and you're the one not defending against the other players. It could be that they are gunning for you. Ask them.

B. Ask the DM. He may tell you something that they won't.

C. Find another game if you don't enjoy this one.

[The Extinguisher]

Clearly the healthy answer is to make a character so cheesy and min-maxed that the next time they try and go for you, you can slaughter them all.

Or you can just ask them what's going on. I guess that's an option too.

[WarKitty]

Clearly the healthy answer is to make a character so cheesy and min-maxed that the next time they try and go for you, you can slaughter them all.

Or you can just ask them what's going on. I guess that's an option too.

Actually, this might be instructive. Or rather, assume that this is the way they play - they just like PvP and you weren't expecting it. Build a character for that. See how they react.

[Mutazoia]

Actually, this might be instructive. Or rather, assume that this is the way they play - they just like PvP and you weren't expecting it. Build a character for that. See how they react.

Remember....their character's have to sleep some time. The fist time your PC gets the night watch, coup de grace them all with a rock while they sleep and take all THEIR stuff....

("After all it's not REAL stuff and you can roll new characters..why get bent out of shape about it, right guys?" Muhahahah)

[The Dark Fiddler]

A. Ask them. It could simply be that they are PvP type players and you're the one not defending against the other players. It could be that they are gunning for you. Ask them.

B. Ask the DM. He may tell you something that they won't.

C. Find another game if you don't enjoy this one.

This. Whenever you have problems with somebody in the group, the first choice should always be to talk it out. Anything else may be missing important details. If (as I suspect they will) they don't give you anything concrete to work on, my next suggestion would be to take precautions with your next character. If they whine about metagaming, tell them that the large number of their compatriots who are never seen again have started up the rumor mill, and it's widely thought that something fishy is going on. Not enough to cause investigations, but enough to make people take precautions when working with them.

As for suggestions there, I'd say spellcasters who sleep in Rope Tricks and keep false spell books filled with Explosive Runes on them. I once took Sudden Maximize specifically to maximize the explosive runes I kept in my spell book, in case somebody stole my books. I also glamored my real book to look like a simple box, and had it set to release a nauseating cloud if they touched it without permission.

[Madfellow]

Try playing a battle sorcerer (Unearthed Arcana). From a thematic and a mechanical standpoint it's very similar to a monk/sorcerer, except it's more optimized. Swap out your familiar for an animal companion (also Unearthed Arcana).

If I had to guess, I'd say your party is doing this because they want to farm your character for XP and loot. Every time they kill one, you make another and bring in a whole character's worth of wealth by level. That's a very tempting prize for a cutthroat party. The best way to get them to stop (if asking nicely doesn't work) is to make it more trouble than it's worth.

[Sidmen]

The easiest and quickest solution would be to tell everyone when you start playing your next character: "Hi guys, I'm no longer willing to join in with PVP. Don't try to kill any more of my characters - I won't participate in that fight."

Then, if they do try to kill you, calmly fold your character sheet and walk into the kitchen to wait for them to stop being children.

[Madfellow]

I actually had to deal with a similar problem in my last campaign. My character got killed once in PvP. Except instead of making a new character, my DM demanded that the responsible players pay to have my character resurrected. And I got to keep all my old loot. The party quickly learned that PvP doesn't pay off.

[nedz]

Play a VoP Druid. You have an AC to guard you and no loot to steal.

[Talakeal]

Try playing a battle sorcerer (Unearthed Arcana). From a thematic and a mechanical standpoint it's very similar to a monk/sorcerer, except it's more optimized. Swap out your familiar for an animal companion (also Unearthed Arcana).

If I had to guess, I'd say your party is doing this because they want to farm your character for XP and loot. Every time they kill one, you make another and bring in a whole character's worth of wealth by level. That's a very tempting prize for a cutthroat party. The best way to get them to stop (if asking nicely doesn't work) is to make it more trouble than it's worth.

I was in a group that did that once. We didn't murder one another though, we just had an agreement that if anyone was even slightly tired of their character they would find a way to commit suicide where the rest of the party could easily loot their body.

I actually had to deal with a similar problem in my last campaign. My character got killed once in PvP. Except instead of making a new character, my DM demanded that the responsible players pay to have my character resurrected. And I got to keep all my old loot. The party quickly learned that PvP doesn't pay off.

I was did something very similar in my game and was told by both the players and this forum that I was a terrible DM for dictating the player's actions for OOC reasons.

[Swordprince]

Hi everyone, just wondering if someone can help me with an issue I'm having with the other PCs in our DM's 3.5e campaign.

They're great guys and really good friends, but they seem to have it in for me. I'm on my seventh character in about 6 months now. On one occasion one of the other PCs killed me seemingly unprovoked (in a manner which I will not go into). Another time, a spellcaster killed my very promising Githzerai Monk/Sorcerer, and the PCs looted my character's corpse, taking (among other things) a ring of Spider Climb and a valuable Brilliant Energy Quarterstaff, even though they already had a brilliant energy weapon!

Has anyone else ever experienced anything like this? Can anyone help me with it?

Wow, wait a second...SEVENTH character? If you play once a week, like I used to with my friends, that means you die once a month man. Why are you putting up with that? Make a character powerful enough to annihilate them :P

On the flip side, the game is just basically being ruined for some players when PCs attack each other. In most cases, something like that is not good, and is usually detrimental for a campaign.

Simply tell them to stop it because it's not fun having to make a new character all the time. Quite frankly, I wouldn't stand for it. I'm the kind of guy who really puts a lot of work into his characters, and I certainly don't wanna have it ruined by someone who thinks it's fun to kill other people's characters. I'm also willing to bet your friends didn't really put much effort into their characters, because they are probably assuming their characters might die as well, due to retribution or some such.

Basically, just tell them to stop, because you don't want to make a new character all the time. I know that stuff like this ruined some games for me as well. Though my friends were nice about it - if I asked them not to do it, they didn't. Although they did sometimes make me paranoid xD They were great guys though, loved playing with them.

[Jormengand]

The following are all ways to make them regret screwing with you. Enjoy.

Those involving spellcasting generally assume that you have 9th level spells, which I doubt, but can all be pulled off with third-level ones save the resurrecting one which needs fifth.

Spoiler

Show

Method 1: Have the next character be a half-red/gold dragon or otherwise fire immune (or very fire resistant), and have a Necklace of Fireballs or two hidden on his person, and take the fireball spell or equivalent. The next time that someone attacks you, run up to them if you aren't there already (Move), tell them what you are about to do (Free), and ready an action to cast Fireball on yourself if one of your opponents attempts to run away or attack you (standard). Decline to take the reflex save for your necklace(s) of fireballs. Steal all your opponents' stuff.

Method 2: Your opponent's bag of holding (this assumes they have one) is probably a tiny object and has no DEX modifier, meaning that it's got AC 7. Really easy to hit. Make a ranged attack roll (with -4 improvised weapon penalty, so you'll need a half-decent attack bonus) using a portable hole. Boom.

Method 3: Buy as many cursed items as possible. Die. Repeat.

Method 4: Be Pun-Pun, Chuck, the Infinite Crusader, The Infinite Rogue, the Infinite Commoner, or just optimised enough to wipe the floor with them all in a round.

Method 5: Do not join the party, but instead have an absurdly high stealth (or hide and move silently) and sleight of hand value. Steal their best stuff.

Method 6: Do not join the party. Be a rogue or a ninja, and make many sneak attacks before they know you exist. Preferably while sneaking.

Method 7: Cast a gate to a dead-magic plane behind them. Bull rush them into it. Dismiss the gate.

Method 8: Send them into Sigil and find a way to get the Lady of Pain angry with them.

Method 9: Do not join the party. Trap everything with something like Explosive Runes or Symbol of Madness. Summon creatures to fight them. Gate in outsiders beyond your control and D-door out. Drop the room they're standing in on top of them. Use Arcane Lock on anything they could conceivably want to open. Web every room. Throw walls of fire in the party's path. Stick Hungry Pits everywhere, usually covered by Silent Images of the floor. Shove walls of iron in their path. Set them upon each other with symbols of persuasion. Block them with Ramparts. Put down Delayed Blast Fireballs. Use Prismatic Walls to annoy them intensely. Summon Creature whatever and chuck undead at them whenever possible. When you're out of spells, rest in a Mage's Private Sanctum.

Method 10: Take the Vow of Poverty or only use consumables so you have no stuff that they can steal. Go down fighting.

Method 11: Use every touch-based trap that the caster does not trigger and that you can cast on all your equipment.

Method 12: Use your new character to cast Raise Dead, Resurrection or True Resurrection on all your old ones.

The Dreaded 13th Method: Get a longbow, proficiency with it, and at least one arrow for each party member, and prepare the following spells:
1st: Magic weapon, true strike in a number of slots equal to number of other party members
2st: Arrow Eruption if you're allowed to use it, otherwise heightened true strike in the other slots. Maybe a spare magic weapon.
3rd: Explosive Runes in all slots.
4th: Heightened Explosive Runes in all slots.
5th: Quickened true strike in all slots.
6th: Quickened arrow eruption if you're allowed it, Mage's private sanctum if wished, otherwise Maximised Explosive Runes or Symbol of Persuasion/Fear in all slots.
7th: Maximised heightened Explosive Runes or heightened Symbol of X
8th: Maximised empowered Explosive Runes or Symbol of Death.
9th: Interplanetary teleport. Maximised empowered heightened Explosive Runes or Heightened Symbol of Death for the rest.

Then, split your traps between the four arrows (unless you have Arrow Eruption, in which case you need only one). Use magic weapon and true strike, and fire the arrow at offending party member. They are essentially going to die from the sheer number of Explosive Runes on that thing. You can full-round attack to kill two people if needed, but you don't get True Strike on the second one so be careful. If you have it, cast Quickened Arrow Eruption to fire an exact duplicate of that first arrow, and next round use Arrow Eruption and Quickened Arrow Eruption to do it again. If you are denied it, you instead need to survive the next round before you use Quickened True Strike and another attack, and keep on doing so until you have killed everyone. If things get sticky, use interplanetary teleport to get out, obviously subbing in a lower-level one if needed.

[Zeful]

Get a Greataxe, a potion of silence, and the next time the character sleeps, hit him with an insane DC on a coup de grace that goes well beyond what most characters are capable of resisting on anything but a 20 for several levels.

Works even better if you have a high strength modifier. Being able to force a dc 46+ save against instant death at most levels will get people's attention.

[Kazemi]

Method 12: Use your new character to cast Raise Dead, Resurrection or True Resurrection on all your old ones.

This amuses me to no end. Especially so if all of your characters were related.

Spoiler

Show

The Dreaded 13th Method: Get a longbow, proficiency with it, and at least one arrow for each party member, and prepare the following spells:
1st: Magic weapon, true strike in a number of slots equal to number of other party members
2st: Arrow Eruption if you're allowed to use it, otherwise heightened true strike in the other slots. Maybe a spare magic weapon.
3rd: Explosive Runes in all slots.
4th: Heightened Explosive Runes in all slots.
5th: Quickened true strike in all slots.
6th: Quickened arrow eruption if you're allowed it, Mage's private sanctum if wished, otherwise Maximised Explosive Runes or Symbol of Persuasion/Fear in all slots.
7th: Maximised heightened Explosive Runes or heightened Symbol of X
8th: Maximised empowered Explosive Runes or Symbol of Death.
9th: Interplanetary teleport. Maximised empowered heightened Explosive Runes or Heightened Symbol of Death for the rest.

Then, split your traps between the four arrows (unless you have Arrow Eruption, in which case you need only one). Use magic weapon and true strike, and fire the arrow at offending party member. They are essentially going to die from the sheer number of Explosive Runes on that thing. You can full-round attack to kill two people if needed, but you don't get True Strike on the second one so be careful. If you have it, cast Quickened Arrow Eruption to fire an exact duplicate of that first arrow, and next round use Arrow Eruption and Quickened Arrow Eruption to do it again. If you are denied it, you instead need to survive the next round before you use Quickened True Strike and another attack, and keep on doing so until you have killed everyone. If things get sticky, use interplanetary teleport to get out, obviously subbing in a lower-level one if needed.

I had never even considered making a character so based on two/three spells and tons of Metamagics

[Steward]

Just once I'd like one of these threads to contain a sentence along the lines of, "I tried talking to them and this is what they said..." If you can't speak to these people, are they really your friends? Can you blame them for not realizing that their behavior is annoying you?

[Septimus Faber]

Wow, wait a second...SEVENTH character? If you play once a week, like I used to with my friends, that means you die once a month man.

Yeah... I die. A lot.

Remember....their character's have to sleep some time. The fist time your PC gets the night watch, coup de grace them all with a rock while they sleep and take all THEIR stuff....

That would be fantastic, but our DM is the "winging it" kind of person, and we generally ignore sleep.

Clearly the healthy answer is to make a character so cheesy and min-maxed that the next time they try and go for you, you can slaughter them all.

Again, that would work, but there is one problem. One of the offending players plays a race that is... shall we say... campaign-smashing. It's basically a homebrew Dryad, but has loads of awesome abilities and LA +0!!!! I mean, how unfair is that? There is an excuse, I guess, it was designed when none of us knew very much about the D+D rules, but the DM hasn't acknowledged this or changed it. And now the character's under the effect of a permanencied Shapechange! At ECL 5!

See what I mean?

Send them into Sigil and find a way to get the Lady of Pain angry with them.

That has to be the most quotable sentence I've heard in a long time. I have to have that as my forum signature.

The following are all ways to make them regret screwing with you. Enjoy.

Those involving spellcasting generally assume that you have 9th level spells, which I doubt, but can all be pulled off with third-level ones save the resurrecting one which needs fifth.

My wizard is only ECL 4... slight problem there.

Also, my DM is very harsh about characters dying (we always have to come back one level lower, even when that puts us ridiculously far behind the others) and has a shaky - at best - grasp of the XP system. He just arbitrarily levels us up when he thinks we've decapitated enough monsters. And now he's saying that he'll only give XP to the players who actually kill things in an encounter rather than just wounding them.

I see where people who tell me to find another game are coming from, but there aren't really any other games where I am... plus they are really good friends in all respects except PvP and I don't just want to walk out on them.

But it's hard to stay, sometimes, when one of them keeps a friendly-fire tally. :)

[Madfellow]

You should sit down and have a chat with the whole group, then. The DM, the players, all of them. Tell the DM that he should actually READ the rules on XP and leveling and FOLLOW them. The whole point of those rules is to make the game fair, and a fair game is always more fun. Tell the DM and the players that the homebrewed dryad is overpowered and needs to be nerfed. And explain to them that always coming back one level behind (even if you make a new character, which is again in violation of the rules) is putting you way behind the curve compared to the other players and continually sets you up as easy prey for them. And tell them that if they don't take steps to make the game fair for everyone, you're just not going to play. You can still hang out with them, but I don't recommend participating in a game that's stacked against you.

Edit: A level 4 wizard? Please tell me you have the Color Spray spell and at least one mundane weapon. You'll also need a decent constitution and dexterity.

[Big Fau]

I see where people who tell me to find another game are coming from, but there aren't really any other games where I am... plus they are really good friends in all respects except PvP and I don't just want to walk out on them.

Good friends don't gank fellow players without consent. And there's a real difference between a good friend and a good player. None of the people in your group sound like good players (especially the DM), and you are better off with Play-by-Post or DMing your own game. With blackjack and hookers.

[Jormengand]

That has to be the most quotable sentence I've heard in a long time. I have to have that as my forum signature.

Go ahead.

The Portable Hole and Necklace of fireballs ones can still be done (Just use a Fireball from the necklace itself. Cursed items still work. Pun-Pun, the Infinite Rogue and the Infinite commoner still work. Stealing things still works. Sneak attacks still work. Lady of pain still works if you can coax them into Sigil. Some low-level spell traps still work. Vow still works. Trapping your equipment probably won't work, unfortunately.

This amuses me to no end. Especially so if all of your characters were related.



I had never even considered making a character so based on two/three spells and tons of Metamagics

I did this one before, and arrived with a whole screwyou-full of characters. I then gated all my enemies bodies into a dead-magic plane.


I've also done this one, and destroyed an entire party before they knew what had hit them. Terrific fun.


The best one to do, however, is the one where you trap everything. I played a game which was basically a 1v10, but I was allowed to be level 15 and they were only level 12. Level 15 is still enough for eighth-level spellcasting. There's also a way of reducing your resting time to 2 hours. Essentially, I ended up trapping everything the party went near, blocking their path and throwing summoned creatures at them. Great fun.

[Septimus Faber]

Just to clear powergaming ideas up... I have very limited access to supplements. I have all Core at my disposal, plus Expanded Psionics Handbook and Complete Arcane, but that's it.

I have an idea... can anyone give me an ECL four build focused completely on defense/counterattacks, not relying on magic items (the DM only gives PCs made above first level mundane starting equipment, none of the whole "calculate-how-many-magic-items-they-have-so-far sort of stuff) and using only the supplements mentioned above + core? Or alternatively - just any CRAZY INSANE ULTIMATE CHEESY POWERGAMING ideas using the same criteria? (core+ xph and carc, ecl 4, not reliant on magic items) I am a big fan of powergaming but have never really managed to pull a Pun-Pun-esque character off successfully. (All hail Pun-Pun - that's the sort of degree of powergaming I need if I'm going to stand a chance. Besides the dryad thing, both of the other PCs are much more experienced than me).

Please tell me you have Color Spray

I'm slightly confused here - why is Color Spray so good?
Thanks everyone, you've been really helpful.

What are the Infinite Rogue and the Infinite Commoner? They sound promising, but I can't find them on the internet. Are we talking Chicken-Infested here?

[Emmerask]

Whats the level? cause some builds have a certain level requirement before becoming really good.

Overall I would say wizard/Initiate of the sevenfold veil (prc) is your best bet for an unstoppable character ^^

(edit ah you wrote four, i was looking for a number.
Anyway level 4 is a bit low for an unstoppable build without massive cheese that will lead to the dm throwing books at you ^^

So I have no idea really.

[Jormengand]

I have an idea... can anyone give me an ECL four build focused completely on defense/counterattacks.

Large Lucerne hammer (or glaive), lighten weapon or monkey's grip with improved versions, combat reflexes, stand still, hold the line, combat patrol if you're allowed it, fighter levels. You can make many, many attacks of opportunity. Many many. Be an orc. Also, being a half-dragon can work if you get the LA +2 version rather than the LA +3. You may then proceed to hit anyone who you threaten (quite a few people) for ridiculous amounts of damage if they try to charge you or get too close.

Or, take the Young template and wizard to access 3rd level spells and have crazy AC. Explosive runes, I prepared them this morning.

Whats the level? cause some builds have a certain level requirement before becoming really good.

Overall I would say wizard/Initiate of the sevenfold veil (prc) is your best bet for an unstoppable character ^^

ECL 4.

What are the Infinite Rogue and the Infinite Commoner? They sound promising, but I can't find them on the internet. Are we talking Chicken-Infested here?

Infinite commoner is chickens. Infinite rogue is draw/drop free action abuse, which you can technically apply sneak attack to because it requires an attack roll, just not an attack action.

[Septimus Faber]

If the DM throws books at me, I frankly do not care, I NEED massive unstoppable cheese, I am open to anything (as long as it still fits the criteria from my last post).

N.B. Read my last post before replying, please. It gives stuff you need to know about access to supplements etc.

[Septimus Faber]

Infinite rogue is draw/drop free action abuse

Could you clarify? I'm a little confused.

[Ceaon]

As you so eloquently stated in your topic title, this is a player problem, not a character problem. You solve these kinds of problems with the other players (including the DM), not with their characters.

[Jormengand]

Could you clarify? I'm a little confused.

You can draw a throwing weapon, ammunition or spell component (even for a spell you do not know) as a free action, and drop it as a free action. It requires a ranged touch attack roll to hit, but not an attack action. Therefore, you run up to them as a move action, dropping a stool as you run. You stand on the stool with the rest of your movement, and jump over their head. While in midair, you take out a dagger and drop it on them. You take out a dagger and drop it on them. You take out a dagger and drop it on them. You take out a dagger and drop it on them. You take out a dagger and drop it on them.

And so on. You can make as many sneak attacks as you like, and then you land on your feet in the square next to their cold dead body.

[Septimus Faber]

You can draw a throwing weapon, ammunition or spell component (even for a spell you do not know) as a free action

Presumably only if you have Quickdraw.

As you so eloquently stated in your topic title, this is a player problem, not a character problem. You solve these kinds of problems with the other players (including the DM), not with their characters.

I acknowledge that this is a perfectly acceptable argument, and I will try and sort it out by discussion, but let us for the moment assume that powergaming is the answer.

Keep the Pun-Pun-esque cheese coming, folks. You've been really helpful.

[Madfellow]

The cleric, druid, wizard, and sorcerer are the 4 strongest classes in core. Of those, the wizard and sorcerer suffer from low HP, so they might not be the best choice. However, the battle sorcerer option (available on the online open-source system reference document website for free and completely legal) gives the sorcerer a much-needed boost in HP and armor. The website is d20srd.org.

Color Spray is useful because it's a 15-foot cone that blinds anything with 4 hit dice or fewer and stuns anything with 5 hit dice or more. If nothing else, it will buy you time if you get into a fight.

Alternatively, you could go with a barbarian (tons of HP, rage, and can't be taken by surprise).

Anything else I wouldn't recommend in the event of a direct confrontation.

[Septimus Faber]

Large Lucerne hammer (or glaive), lighten weapon or monkey's grip with improved versions, combat reflexes, stand still, hold the line, combat patrol if you're allowed it, fighter levels. You can make many, many attacks of opportunity. Many many. Be an orc. Also, being a half-dragon can work if you get the LA +2 version rather than the LA +3. You may then proceed to hit anyone who you threaten (quite a few people) for ridiculous amounts of damage if they try to charge you or get too close.

I'll take your word for it. I have heard of some, but by no means all, of this stuff. Please remember what supplements I have.

Also, where is LA +2 half-dragon? Monster Manual I?