# Thread: By the Inferior Science of our Enemies: Gramarie Mark II

1. ## Re: By the Inferior Science of our Enemies: Gramarie Mark II

But, once you've stopped it, why is it moving again? If the object has been stopped, it's not going to start again until you apply force to it. And if you're using the same ebbs you gained from stopping it to move it again, then what's even the point?

2. ## Re: By the Inferior Science of our Enemies: Gramarie Mark II

Originally Posted by Arcanist
That was assumed. I stated we were using an Earth type planet in an Earth type system.

Kinetomantic Transformers don't have nets (or limits). They capture the motion of the entire object they are connected to. Also, it would be sustained overtime. Each round the object WOULD move, it generates ebbs and stops that motion, thus generating ebbs.
Originally Posted by The_Final_Stand
But, once you've stopped it, why is it moving again? If the object has been stopped, it's not going to start again until you apply force to it. And if you're using the same ebbs you gained from stopping it to move it again, then what's even the point?
Forces are still pulling on the object every round. Gravity is trying to drag the planet into its star, and the star (and system) itself is moving at massive speeds within its own galaxy... come to think of it, Arcanist, you're ebbs generated are far, far too low.

If we're assuming an earth-like setup here, the solar system itself is only one in a galactic body. As such, the speed of the solar system within that body will be converted into ebbs as well. Considering we're already using an earth-like setup, let's assume the setup for the galaxy is the same as the milky way. If that's the case, then we can instead capture the planet's speed while orbiting the galactic center (Wikipedia gives us 140 mi/s, or 4,435,200 feet per round). Now, capturing this speed will most definitely destroy the planet, but it gives us 28,908,337 ebbs per round (using the same bulk rating of 19553.8 you gave the planet).

Now, obviously that's only the first round. Afterwards, you'd have to determine which forces play more prominently on the planet, calculate the distance the planet would move due to gravity, and go from there. But still, sacking a planet for 20 million ebbs in one round isn't a bad way to power a death ray.

Granted, the solar system could be encased in a protective porous shell, and the glow of stars is simply a glimpse of the chaos that the gods distilled the material plane from, making my math obsolete...

3. ## Re: By the Inferior Science of our Enemies: Gramarie Mark II

Originally Posted by The_Final_Stand
But, once you've stopped it, why is it moving again? If the object has been stopped, it's not going to start again until you apply force to it. And if you're using the same ebbs you gained from stopping it to move it again, then what's even the point?
1. Because the same force is applied each round to the object regardless. Push generated from an Eldrikinetic Engine is triggered each round, so I would assume it would be for the case of inherently mobile objects (say for example: Planets).
2. The Orthogonal Engine was just used as a basis to calculate the about of push necessary to move the object. There isn't actually one being used. In fact, I only used the Orthogonal Engine to detail how superior it would be to use an inherently mobile object (A planet or other objects in space). I would also like to note that the entire thesis was made on the assumption that the user was not using any Discoveries (Aeronautical Savant, Green Energy, Intricate Engineering, Rabbit Hole, Size Matters Not, Variable of Volume, We Are All Connected), Feats (Equivalent Circuits, Force of Mind) or other tricks (E.I. Court, Individualized mass Heuristic Circuits, Von Neumann machines) as well in the development of this blueprint. I can assure you, if I applied feats, discoveries and some other gems to this, I can gain a twice the imput for half the output. (it just requires the use of a Demiplane of Ebbs trick to jump start it... Maybe... Not sure, have to check.)

After I get back from class today, I'll make the blueprint for this.

Originally Posted by Fako
Spoiler
Forces are still pulling on the object every round. Gravity is trying to drag the planet into its star, and the star (and system) itself is moving at massive speeds within its own galaxy... come to think of it, Arcanist, you're ebbs generated are far, far too low.

If we're assuming an earth-like setup here, the solar system itself is only one in a galactic body. As such, the speed of the solar system within that body will be converted into ebbs as well. Considering we're already using an earth-like setup, let's assume the setup for the galaxy is the same as the milky way. If that's the case, then we can instead capture the planet's speed while orbiting the galactic center (Wikipedia gives us 140 mi/s, or 4,435,200 feet per round). Now, capturing this speed will most definitely destroy the planet, but it gives us 28,908,337 ebbs per round (using the same bulk rating of 19553.8 you gave the planet).

Now, obviously that's only the first round. Afterwards, you'd have to determine which forces play more prominently on the planet, calculate the distance the planet would move due to gravity, and go from there. But still, sacking a planet for 20 million ebbs in one round isn't a bad way to power a death ray.

Granted, the solar system could be encased in a protective porous shell, and the glow of stars is simply a glimpse of the chaos that the gods distilled the material plane from, making my math obsolete...
... I... Wow, you just blew my mind. I wonder if we can attach the Kinetomantic transformers to the Dark Energy of the Universe to capture the speed of the expansion of the Universe, but I believe that would be something like attaching Kinetomantic transformers to the Speed of Light...

4. ## Re: By the Inferior Science of our Enemies: Gramarie Mark II

Originally Posted by Arcanist
... I... Wow, you just blew my mind. I wonder if we can attach the Kinetomantic transformers to the Dark Energy of the Universe to capture the speed of the expansion of the Universe, but I believe that would be something like attaching Kinetomantic transformers to the Speed of Light...
I don't believe so, since you must physically attach the transformer to the object. Personally, I'd rather use a bunch of gold transformers placed in close orbit around the star. With creative use of satellites, you can attach Kinetomantic transformers to the gold transformers, giving it a point of relation to the satellite. If the satellite is in a stable orbit around the sun, the transformers will orbit with it, but will be unable to be pulled into the sun (by virtue of being tethered to the satellite's location). In this manner, you can capture the luminous energy of the sun, and get some bonus ebbs from the sun's gravity. Not only that, but this is sustainable energy. It might not be as quick to set up (and requires development of a proper vessel to place them), but it doesn't kill anything and everything...

Well, doesn't kill anything and everything until it's ready, in which case you can use your orbiting death ray to zap insects with impunity...

5. ## Re: By the Inferior Science of our Enemies: Gramarie Mark II

Yeah, gravitational forces are still being applied to the planet. Unfortunately, the planet isn't moving in an orbit to counteract them. Because you stopped it. Now the planet will begin accelerating towards the star.

So, I guess what would happen is you'd get one round of a truly vast number of ebbs (planet stops orbiting and starts being a body with no relative velocity to the star), then you'd get a smaller, though still large amount every round after that (the planet accelerates towards the star due to gravity, but is stopped every round). Also, you can't turn the transformer off again, or you crash into the star eventually.

Assumptions: The star is the dominant reference point, and is for all intents and purposes stationary.

6. ## Re: By the Inferior Science of our Enemies: Gramarie Mark II

Alternately, if a point at the center of the planet is the reference point, the planet stops spinning, and as far as I can remember from geology and earth-science classes, would not start again.

If the actual inner core of the planet is the reference point... I'm unsure, and I'm not sure anyone else knows either. Considering there's other layers in the way and they're fluid or fluidish, do we know if or whether the core's spinning at a rate different than the crust?

7. ## Re: By the Inferior Science of our Enemies: Gramarie Mark II

Originally Posted by The_Final_Stand
Yeah, gravitational forces are still being applied to the planet. Unfortunately, the planet isn't moving in an orbit to counteract them. Because you stopped it. Now the planet will begin accelerating towards the star.

So, I guess what would happen is you'd get one round of a truly vast number of ebbs (planet stops orbiting and starts being a body with no relative velocity to the star), then you'd get a smaller, though still large amount every round after that (the planet accelerates towards the star due to gravity, but is stopped every round). Also, you can't turn the transformer off again, or you crash into the star eventually.

Assumptions: The star is the dominant reference point, and is for all intents and purposes stationary.
The original basis of this was to account for the planets inherent revolution and not the orbit around the star (I can't even say I misspoke since I said "orbit" so many times). As for making sustaining the Planet's orbit around the reference point, I would use a YGGD flux and HEUR 266 to keep the planets orbit in tact. If applying the Kinetomantic Transformer halts the revolution, rather than the planets position relevant to itself

When triggered, it causes itself and anything attached to it to come to a halt relative to its dominant reference frame (typically the fabric of the Plane or the motion of the planet).
It does not reference the core of the planet (despite the planet technically revolving around it OR it's axis).

Originally Posted by Qwertystop
Alternately, if a point at the center of the planet is the reference point, the planet stops spinning, and as far as I can remember from geology and earth-science classes, would not start again.

If the actual inner core of the planet is the reference point... I'm unsure, and I'm not sure anyone else knows either. Considering there's other layers in the way and they're fluid or fluidish, do we know if or whether the core's spinning at a rate different than the crust?
If the center of the planets motion is captured at well, I believe we have just obtained a, quite literal, infinite supply of power.

8. ## Re: By the Inferior Science of our Enemies: Gramarie Mark II

Originally Posted by Arcanist
If the center of the planets motion is captured at well, I believe we have just obtained a, quite literal, infinite supply of power.
Not what I meant. You have to pick a frame of reference for the motion for it to make any sense. If that's a single point in the planet's center of mass, no problem, you've stopped the spin. That's a one-time thing - the planet's slowing down its spin slowly anyway from friction.

If it's the solid ball of mostly-iron at the core, you're not getting power from it, because that's what you're defining as static. Whether the earth is spinning at a different rate at different depths is a question that I don't know the answer to, but it's what would decide how much power you get from that. Power from that would be continuous until friction stops the core, I assume, if you do get any power from it. From an external view, you'd be pushing the planet different amounts at different depths to make it all spin the same as the core.

Wait... if we set something that from a normal view is spinning as our static frame of reference for determining motion, does that mean we move other things to match the spin and get power for doing it?

9. ## Re: By the Inferior Science of our Enemies: Gramarie Mark II

Originally Posted by Qwertystop
Not what I meant. You have to pick a frame of reference for the motion for it to make any sense. If that's a single point in the planet's center of mass, no problem, you've stopped the spin. That's a one-time thing - the planet's slowing down its spin slowly anyway from friction.
It does it from it's dominant reference frame (whatever that might be for your object; In this specific case it is the planet's rotation according to it's axis (if my reading is correct).

@At the people saying that this would only generate a one time boost: This is the equivalent of saying that a Kinetomantic Transformer attached to any Eldrikinetic Engine means that the engine would only generate one boost and then never work again.

Originally Posted by Qwertystop
If it's the solid ball of mostly-iron at the core, you're not getting power from it, because that's what you're defining as static. Whether the earth is spinning at a different rate at different depths is a question that I don't know the answer to, but it's what would decide how much power you get from that. Power from that would be continuous until friction stops the core, I assume, if you do get any power from it. From an external view, you'd be pushing the planet different amounts at different depths to make it all spin the same as the core.
Accounting for the Dynamo Theory, the core of our planet rotates and is not static (unless a Kinetomantic Transformer is attached to it). Once the Kinetomantic Transformer is implemented not only does the planets magnetic field go with it, but the rotation as well (and everything unfortunate enough to be on the surface). I'd just like to re-affirm how screwed a planet with a Kinetomantic Transformer on it is.

With a Kinetomantic Transformer attached to a planet, it should stop the revolution of the planet entirely (crust to core) and draw power from that.

Originally Posted by Qwertystop
Wait... if we set something that from a normal view is spinning as our static frame of reference for determining motion, does that mean we move other things to match the spin and get power for doing it?

10. ## Re: By the Inferior Science of our Enemies: Gramarie Mark II

Originally Posted by Arcanist
@At the people saying that this would only generate a one time boost: This is the equivalent of saying that a Kinetomantic Transformer attached to any Eldrikinetic Engine means that the engine would only generate one boost and then never work again.
There's a difference: The Eldrikinetic Engine presumably has a continuous power input keeping it moving. I'm pretty sure the earth is spinning from inertia. You stop it, nothing tries to keep it going.

11. ## Re: By the Inferior Science of our Enemies: Gramarie Mark II

Originally Posted by Qwertystop
There's a difference: The Eldrikinetic Engine presumably has a continuous power input keeping it moving. I'm pretty sure the earth is spinning from inertia. You stop it, nothing tries to keep it going.
Fantastic. So the Kinetomantic Transformer is either absolutely worthless (a 1 time burst of a lot of ebbs by many would be considered not worthwhile) or completely overpowered (continuous amount of massive numbers of ebbs).

Reposted else where.

The Big Thinker

Spoiler

Image by pwnr5

"WHAT IS THIS, A HIGH SCHOOL SCIENCE FAIR?! GET YOUR ACT TOGETHER, YOU'RE MAKING US LOOK LIKE A COLLECTION OF ROUND-EARTHERS!"

The Big Thinker is a mind so great that the death of even a single one might result in the end of all the advancement of scientific knowledge forever and for all time! They are the core and most important entity when it comes to science! ... Atleast that is what one would like you to believe. In reality a Big Thinker is just a Gramarist with a really good brain between the ears. These ladies and gentlemen do know their stuff and they are often at the forefront of Gramaric discoveries, even going to the point of developing entire Disciplines, Principles and even Theories from scratch.

Requirements: To become a Big Thinker you must meet all of the following requirements.
Feats: Any 2 Gramarie feats
Gramarie: Capable of Doctorate level Principles.
Skills: 18 ranks in Any 3 Discipline Skills
Special: Must have used Anitu Dust once before.

Hit Die: d4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 8 + Int modifier

Class Skills: The Big Thinker's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Appraise (Int), Autohypnosis (Wis), Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Int), Forgery (Int), Gather Information (Cha), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (All; taken individually) (Int), Listen (Wis), Open Lock (Dex), Profession (Wis), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), and Use Magic Device (Cha).

All of the following are class features of the Big Thinker.

Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special Principles
1st
+0
+0
+0
+2
"Specialization is for Insects", Principle Practice, Discovery +0
2nd
+1
+0
+0
+3
Bonus feat +1
3rd
+1
+1
+1
+3
Discovery +2
4th
+2
+1
+1
+4
Bonus feat +3
5th
+2
+1
+1
+4
Discovery Discourse, Discovery +3
6th
+3
+2
+2
+5
Bonus feat +4
7th
+3
+2
+2
+5
Discovery +5
8th
+4
+2
+2
+6
Bonus feat +6
9th
+4
+3
+3
+6
Discovery +6
10th
+5
+3
+3
+7
Theorycraft, Bonus feat +7

Weapon and Armour Proficiencies: A WEAPON! Are you MAD?! We can't give it a WEAPON! WEAPONS kill. The Big Thinker gains no additional weapon or armor proficiencies.

"Specialization is for Insects" (Ex): Such is your mastery of science that you are treated as specializing in all Disciplines of Gramarie when you would be required to meet the prerequisites of a feat, discovery or theory. You may learn a specialized Principle outside of your specialization, however when preparing that principle it takes 6 times as long to complete.

Principle Practice (Ex): Tying yourself down to a single principle? BAH! Such amentia, subnormality is best left to your test subjects! You must learn to adapt your ever expanding mind to greater goals, least you fall in line with the tomfoolery of those inferior minds. You gain a Principle, that you qualify for, as a bonus principle. You may change this Principle once per day.

Discovery: Always ahead of the curve, the Big Thinker is able to catch on to techniques in Gramarie at a much more accelerated rate. At first level and then every 2 levels after, the Big Thinker learns a new Discovery.

Bonus feat: Every now and again on a Anitu Dust fueled binge, a Big Thinker will gain a flash of insight. At 2nd level, and every 2 levels after, the Big Thinker gains a Gramarie bonus feat. Alternatively, they can gain learn a new Principle instead.

Discovery Discourse (Ex): After careful consideration you realize that you cannot possibly know every Discovery ever made using this fine art. Even for you such a mental task would be unpossible! Thus you learn to forget minor details to the old Discoveries in place for newer, better, more superior-er Discoveries! You gain a bonus Discovery. You may change this Discovery once per day.

Theorycraft (Ex): A Big Thinker does not just use science, THEY MAKE SCIENCE! You learn a Theory that you qualify for. You may change this Theory once per day.

Big Thinker moved because the original comment was in an argument and I'd rather save you the time of scrolling down. Aren't I a wondrous person?

New Theory
Spoiler

Transhumanism Theory
Prerequisite: Specialization in alchemetry, or biollurgy, or heuristicism, or Imachination, or a universalist, must know Continual Carmot or, Material Fleshshape or, The Most Exotic or, Intricate Manufacturing, must know 2 principles from Alchemetry, Biollurgy, Heuristicism and Imachination.
Preparation Time: 6 hours

In a universe filled with Gods, Demons, and mighty Wizards that reshape the very cosmos to suit their needs, the lowly Gramarist is hardly the most readily Immortal. Short of a steady diet of Carmot or being an unreproducible Biollurgical Chasis, the Gramarist has very little choice as far as attaining immortality.

This theory is entirely based upon increasing the lifespan of sentient life in a number of ways. If you are a Generalist Gramarist you can select all of these techniques. With each of these techniques, living creatures capable of aging lose any penalties associated with it and still accumulate bonuses.

• Alchemetry: You must be specialized in Alchemetry to perform this technique. You may convince objects and creatures to harden to endure blows of any kind from any source. Doing this to a creature treats it as an object when it would be beneficial (such as enduring aging and getting attacked). When you are attacked, you are treated as having Damage Reduction 2 (+2 for every 2 HD the creature has). You can also treat a living creature like a piece of planetary metal and may alter it using your Alchemetry principles.
• Biollurgy: You must be specialized in Biollurgy to perform this technique. You create or alter a living body to constantly regenerate and remove the aging process entirely from it. In addition to this, the target creature is treated as having Regeneration 2 (+1 for every 2 HD the creature has) that is bypassed by Fire. Limbs that are cut off, instead of rotting away it becomes a Biollurgical Chassis (requiring you to make a Heal check) of a size equal to the base creatures -2 size categories and the lost limb regenerates from it's stub. The newly made Biollurgical Chassis is sentient and loyal.
• Heuristicism: You must be specialized in Heuristicism to perform this technique. You rewire a brain to allow its mind to function through a network to allow it to endure the movements of time. In addition to this, the target creature gains +2 points of Intelligence, Wisdom and Charisma and gains Telepathy out 10ft (+10ft for every 2HD the creature has). You may control and command any Heuristic circuit within your Telepathy range. To do this, you must make an Autohypnosis check (Once; Thereafter you can access it freely).
• Imachination: You must be specialized in Imachination to perform this technique. You alter the body to allow it to convert itself into an eternal Illusion that can withstand any change in era. In addition to this, the target creature gains the Incorporeal subtype (which can be deactivated at will; While this ability is deactivated the creature resumes aging). You may alter your appearance through the use of an Imachination principle. Creatures that see you must make a Will save (DC is 15 + 5 for every IMCH principle you know). If they succeed this Will save they know you are actually an Incorporeal creature and not an actual Illusion.

12. ## Re: By the Inferior Science of our Enemies: Gramarie Mark II

Originally Posted by Arcanist
Fantastic. So the Kinetomantic Transformer is either absolutely worthless (a 1 time burst of a lot of ebbs by many would be considered not worthwhile) or completely overpowered (continuous amount of massive numbers of ebbs).
Hang on... I just searched "kinetomantic" and it's not in the first post. Are we talking about the Iron ones, that take or give spin?

So it can only be used for stopping massive drifting things and Eldrikinetic engines? False. You have a prisoner? Attach them to it and they can't even move to try to escape. Some sort of oneshot projectile, like a missile? This'll get it spinning to keep the path stable, or stop it spinning to decrease accuracy if you're teleporting it onto an enemy shot. Use it for mechanical energy in situations where a rotation is more efficient than lateral motion, so you don't need to combine three engines to get a good, even turn (Simple Orthogonal, Ascending, and Submerging).

You don't use it to make energy. You use it to do things.

13. ## Re: By the Inferior Science of our Enemies: Gramarie Mark II

Originally Posted by Qwertystop
Hang on... I just searched "kinetomantic" and it's not in the first post. Are we talking about the Iron ones, that take or give spin?
This explains so much. I was referring to The Theory of Kinetic Energy.

14. ## Re: By the Inferior Science of our Enemies: Gramarie Mark II

Originally Posted by Arcanist
This explains so much. I was referring to The Theory of Kinetic Energy.
Okay then. Never mind what I said, I need to read through that before I make any analyses.

15. ## Re: By the Inferior Science of our Enemies: Gramarie Mark II

@DMwithoutPC's
Spoiler
Originally Posted by DMwithoutPC's
some ideas I got while reading Hortistructure

Key Skill: Profession(farmer)

HORT 101: Intro to Hortistruction
Prerequisite: None
Target: 1 cubic foot of organic material or solid planetary metal
Preparation Time: 1 hour

Ok, you create plantstructure with this. but at one cubic foot per hour it will take a long time before have built an entire building...
At this level its meant more for agriculture purposes, and hybrid chassis, rather than giant death forts.

I think their should be a principle that let's you grow your existing Agroscructure with a cubic feet per .... Profession (farmer). otherwise you have to keep hauling dead bodies or chunks of metal to your fortress.
Might have to use that in the expanding topiary discipline.

HORT 147: Unorthodox Beltian Bodies [Specialist]
Prerequisite: Profession(farmer) 4 ranks
Target: 1 square foot of agrotecture surface
Preparation Time: 1 hour

This is very usefull because it can create planetary metals, or other stuff for your principles. however, you should give a number for the size or wheight of the fruits.
I put one in already. Its 1/10th pound each

HORT 235: Polar Polarization
Prerequisite: HORT 101, Profession(farmer) 8 ranks
Target: 1 cubic foot of agrotecture
Preparation Time: 1 hour

rather usefull, though I can't think of anything special to use it for.
BTW what was exactly your Idea with substructures?
hehehe. The idea was to have "branches" with "leaves" that extend into, say, a radiation zone, while other branches have the fruit.

HORT 289: Unusual Energetics [Specialist]
Prerequisite: HORT 101, Profession(farmer) 8 ranks
Target: 1 agrotecture plant
Preparation Time: 1 hour

you sayd something about being able to cleanse a area of Radiomantic posioning. are you referring to this? because how does this cleanse? it does not use up the radiomantic energy does it? I mean, the light absorbing ones do not use up the sun, or create an area of darkness right?
It doesn't cleanse but it blocks what I said was it lets you reclaim a radiomantic zone. laying down a layer of this stuff will help with that by making the radiomancy "harmless"

HORT 317: Expanding Topiary
Prerequisite:Any 3 HORT principles, Profession(farmer) 15 ranks
Target 1 agrotecture plant
Preparation Time: 1 hour
As part of preparing this principle you must make a Profession(farmer) check which must equal or exceed the original check made to prepare the mass of agrotecture you are operating on. A mass of agrotecture that has this principal prepared on it can be either “on” or “off”. “On” agrotecture benefits from the properties listed below while “off” agrotecture doesn’t.

For every 73-Profession(farmer) check minimum 12 hours a hortistruction construct is exposed to its energy source (and water of course) it grows by an additional cubic foot. This growth can be in the form of a simple expansion of its form (any cavities expand as well) or the duplication of a substructure (which will start off miniaturized if it would require more than 1 cubic foot). Agrotecture expanding in this way will not produce fruit until it stops expanding. A maximum growth size, in cubic feet, must be programed in when this principle is prepared and cannot exceed twice the Profession(farmer) check made when this principle was prepared.

IMHO, this growing stuff should come a lot sooner, if you want to create epic buildings.
Noted, might shift things around to make it Magisterial but that could be a lot of work.

Sections of the construct that are removed entirely can be regrown by a structure that has this principle active at the same rate as agrotecture would otherwise be added. Regeneration of missing parts takes precedence over growth. Entire substructures can be regenerated this way.

A substructure or other mass of agrotecture removed from an on structure that is at least 1 cubic foot in volume is called a ‘cutting’. A cutting that can both absorb water and can absorb energy can grow into a complete copy of the original structure if given time as noted above.

So, years if you took it from a big "plant"
Potentially, but one cubic foot per twelve hours is kinda fast. I might make it a bit faster but remember, and I don't think I made this clear, the growth is by volume and "voids" are not counted in that volume. Shape is very important in hortistruction, a sheet that is 12 feet by 1 foot by 1 inch is still only one cubic foot.
Similarly, substructures called ’stolons can be created. Stolons can extend a number of feet up to the check made when this principle is prepared. When the stolon reaches its maximum extent it buds into a full copy of the parent plant as it existed when turned “on”. This copy does not count against the size limit for the plant and only half of the stolon does. The copy counts a separate plant for the purposes of maximum size but the same plant for the purposes of water and energy absorption. In the event that a stolon is severed the copy becomes an independent plant.

Several questions: 1. Where does it say the plant has a size limit? Why should it have one?
2. so you get the entire copy of the plant, a couple of feet above the original plant? seems unpractical. Allthough you can create large buildings and flats more easily. hmmm, unsure wether I like this. When I first read it I thought your "plant" could create pollen, destribute them, and those would grow into copies of the plant. you know, the way plants work.
3. The last sentence. What does it matter that the copy becomes an independent plant?
1. Second paragraph near the end. Its a limiter to stop you from building the creep or something (as easily), I plan to have a discovery to remove that limit.
2. Stolons are a real thing. they some times are called runners are found in things like raspberries and a bunch of others. That kind of reproduction is even called vegetative after plants ( I am a biologist not a linguist, I don't know if that's were the name came from). 'up to' doesn't mean it has to be up, just that it can be 'as much as'
3. That was before I wrote the sentence before it, still relevant for targeting purposes I think.

If you know Unorthodox Beltian Bodies an on structure can produce fruit that are made of living (and unspecialized) agrostructure which will then grow into copies of the parent if provided with the right conditions.
The programed methods of expansion can be quite complex including contingencies such as the order of production for substructures produced by a stolon, reproductive fruit, or cutting or instructions to grow to less than maximum size be for beginning fruiting and then to produce additional substructures as needed afterwards.

OK, so these were the seeds I was talking about. But that makes me even more confused about the stolons.
It was supposed to be asexual vs sexual reproduction but the seeds are asexual as well. I goofed

HORT 317: Insubstantial Sustenance [Specialist]
Prerequisite:Any 4 HORT principles, Profession(farmer) 15 ranks
Target 1 agrotecture plant
Preparation Time: 1 hour

Fun that you can block powers, spells and gramarie, but not a rouring capstone. It not that much better to live of the thoughts of people than to live of sunlight, right?
Might not be a roaring capstone but its better then you might think.

A helmet made of psionic eating agrotecture prevents your mind from being read like mind blank. A sentient chassis made from it is born with permanent mind blank and never needs to eat.

Arcane magic's everywhere-ness means you can put this any were and it will grow. This might be the ultimate terraforming tool short of chaos theory.

IIRC ebb eating can destabilize circets (if it can't I should fix that), potently deadly to an E.I. and currently disruptive to any major work of Gramarie.

Originally Posted by thethird

Kopout: I did read over the hortisculture do you mind if I suggest some ideas with what I was trying to do? At some points it is pretty close and at some others not so much. I think my idea was more streamlined though, and you might get some ideas.
Go ahead, post the whole discipline if you want. We can compare ideas and trim the overlap.

16. ## Re: By the Inferior Science of our Enemies: Gramarie Mark II

Originally Posted by kopout
*snip*
Do you mind decreasing the length of your "location" or applying spaces between the words?

17. ## Re: By the Inferior Science of our Enemies: Gramarie Mark II

You mean in my profile? Is it bugging you? Spaces would make it to long and shrinking it would get rid of the joke (though its not a very good one). Were did that come from anyway?

18. ## Re: By the Inferior Science of our Enemies: Gramarie Mark II

Originally Posted by kopout
You mean in my profile? Is it bugging you? Spaces would make it to long and shrinking it would get rid of the joke (though its not a very good one). Were did that come from anyway?
Yes in your profile and it is indeed bugging me. I don't understand the joke actually, mind enlightening the uneducated?

I just don't like the compacted nature that it makes your comment and how unsymmetrical it is in the overall comment. It's a "me" problem and while you don't have to do it and I am by no means pressuring you, I would appreciate it.

19. ## Re: By the Inferior Science of our Enemies: Gramarie Mark II

Originally Posted by Arcanist
Yes in your profile and it is indeed bugging me. I don't understand the joke actually, mind enlightening the uneducated?

I just don't like the compacted nature that it makes your comment and how unsymmetrical it is in the overall comment. It's a "me" problem and while you don't have to do it and I am by no means pressuring you, I would appreciate it.
It stretches the panel and makes the forum look ugly and asymmetrical. And, honestly, makes anything he says tainted by wrongness.

So it's not just you. And my lurking glare is pressuring him.

20. ## Re: By the Inferior Science of our Enemies: Gramarie Mark II

The joke was that my "location" was drowning in a stream of thought.
Like I said, not a good one

21. ## Re: By the Inferior Science of our Enemies: Gramarie Mark II

Originally Posted by Arcanist
Yes in your profile and it is indeed bugging me. I don't understand the joke actually, mind enlightening the uneducated?

I just don't like the compacted nature that it makes your comment and how unsymmetrical it is in the overall comment. It's a "me" problem and while you don't have to do it and I am by no means pressuring you, I would appreciate it.
Thank god you mentioned it. I didn't have it in me to ask.

22. ## Re: By the Inferior Science of our Enemies: Gramarie Mark II

So I was thinking about platinum tranformers yesterday and I was wondering if anyone had thought about Ebbs from ritual sacrifice?

My idea was X-Ebbs per HD for creatures (more for sentient creatures?). I think there should also be a bit extra for the ritual, for example: A sacrifice to the Demon Lord of Trickery where the victim is fooled into taking their own life would gain a few more ebbs than one where they are killed by the cultists.

For monetary offerings I think the Ebbs should be based on the value of the offering as a percentage of total wealth of the individual. So a beggar giving up a few copper would generate more than a wealthy merchant offering the same amount.

23. ## Re: By the Inferior Science of our Enemies: Gramarie Mark II

Originally Posted by Terror_Incognito

For monetary offerings I think the Ebbs should be based on the value of the offering as a percentage of total wealth of the individual. So a beggar giving up a few copper would generate more than a wealthy merchant offering the same amount.
With increasing returns? If not, why bother generating ebbs with money if you actually have money?

24. ## Re: By the Inferior Science of our Enemies: Gramarie Mark II

Originally Posted by Terror_Incognito
So I was thinking about platinum tranformers yesterday and I was wondering if anyone had thought about Ebbs from ritual sacrifice?

My idea was X-Ebbs per HD for creatures (more for sentient creatures?). I think there should also be a bit extra for the ritual, for example: A sacrifice to the Demon Lord of Trickery where the victim is fooled into taking their own life would gain a few more ebbs than one where they are killed by the cultists.

For monetary offerings I think the Ebbs should be based on the value of the offering as a percentage of total wealth of the individual. So a beggar giving up a few copper would generate more than a wealthy merchant offering the same amount.
I'd like you to explain more into this. You stated an ebb = HD exchange rate, but such a method would be silly when the use of SRRR (Self-Restoring Radiomantic Reactors) would be much more viable at the same level of play (albeit at much more work). I'd like to note that I am not against this method and actually find it very thematic, although I would take out the thematic aspect of the sacrifice, in your example you use trickery, but I'm sure a God, Evil or otherwise, will appreciate a will sacrifice and you can't very well trick a willing sacrificial subject into sacrificing themselves. It is by definition impossible.

Using the system that you are suggesting for being percentage based wealth it would be ridiculous because you can then abuse this system by making Biollurgical Chassis, and giving them all 1 cp and having them donate it (which would be 100% of their total wealth).

I believe it would be best to allow the Platinum Transformer to make an alternative use for the Sacrifice rules (Ebbs = to DC x 5) and add the little bit of donations as an additional option. I'd recommend making it be based on Gold pieces as a form of scaling and using the whole of a donation made in 24 hours as a form of ebb generation. For example, if a Platinum transformer recieves a total of 5 gp, 64 sp and 34 cp, it would generate, for example 5 ebbs. This relies more upon the community as a whole rather than individual donations. Every little cp helps.

... And we shall call it "taxes"

25. ## Re: By the Inferior Science of our Enemies: Gramarie Mark II

Originally Posted by Arcanist
... And we shall call it "taxes"
Considering I finished school 2 days ago that blue is pure terror to me

On a more serious note, I like the idea of using the Sacrifice rules. They don't really get used for much. Though I thought that 64 sp = 6.4 gp. So wouldn't it be 12 gp, 7 sp, and 4 cp which equals 12 ebbs at the end of the day.

26. ## Re: By the Inferior Science of our Enemies: Gramarie Mark II

Originally Posted by Milo v3
Considering I finished school 2 days ago that blue is pure terror to me

On a more serious note, I like the idea of using the Sacrifice rules. They don't really get used for much. Though I thought that 64 sp = 6.4 gp. So wouldn't it be 12 gp, 7 sp, and 4 cp which equals 12 ebbs at the end of the day.
You would be right good sir. I thought it was a 1/100 ratio rather than a 1/10 ratio

27. ## Re: By the Inferior Science of our Enemies: Gramarie Mark II

So if you want to make an input or output out of a bio-chassis, do you have to do it before you turn in into a creature, while its still just meat, or can/do you have to do it afterwords?

28. ## Re: By the Inferior Science of our Enemies: Gramarie Mark II

I'd like you to explain more into this. You stated an ebb = HD exchange rate, but such a method would be silly when the use of SRRR (Self-Restoring Radiomantic Reactors) would be much more viable at the same level of play (albeit at much more work). I'd like to note that I am not against this method and actually find it very thematic, although I would take out the thematic aspect of the sacrifice, in your example you use trickery, but I'm sure a God, Evil or otherwise, will appreciate a will sacrifice and you can't very well trick a willing sacrificial subject into sacrificing themselves. It is by definition impossible.
I agree, this isn't going to be generating huge Ebbs.

The addition ritual ebbs could simply be the prayers/chants from those involved. Think about the scene from "Temple of Doom" where the guy is sacrificed in the magma. As for getting someone to sacrifice themselves, I was specifically thinking of Fraz'Urb'luu from Dragon issue 333, whose cult does just that.

I'm not much of a numbers guy so what ever people think is best.

29. ## Re: By the Inferior Science of our Enemies: Gramarie Mark II

Originally Posted by Theseventh
So if you want to make an input or output out of a bio-chassis, do you have to do it before you turn in into a creature, while its still just meat, or can/do you have to do it afterwords?
You would have to make the Biochassis out of the correct metal, so meat would only make leather ones. And that's only if your GM is nice.

30. ## Re: By the Inferior Science of our Enemies: Gramarie Mark II

The Theory of Crystallized Energy
Prerequisite: Specialization in arcanodynamics or alchemetry, must know four ARCD principles or four ALCH principles
Preparation Time: 6 hours

After a long period of study of how energy flows and how matter works, you have discovered how matter and energy are related. With this discovery, you can create a new type of arcanodynamic transformer.

• Evanescent: An evanescent transformer must be made out of quintessence, as created by the psionic power quintessence, and the quintessence must be held in some way together, as the theory requires one quart of quintessence (32 manifestations). Note that in general this will weigh over one pound, dampening the use of psionic manifesting. It channels existential energy. However, it is not continually active, but rather can be activated for one round in one adjacent 5-ft. cube (with one extra such cube for each additional preparation, within a range limited by the size its net would be if it were a normal arcanodynamic transformer).
• Input: An input of existential energy applies a disintegrate-like effect to any non-artifact object in the target area, completely destroying with absolutely no remains any unattended object and affecting any attended object similarly unless its owner makes a will save at a DC of your UMD or Diplomacy check divided by 2 (chosen when you first prepare this theory). Either way, each ounce of destroyed matter generates one ebb (plus one per 5 CL if the item is magic).
• Output:When supplied with one ebb for each ounceof a desired non-artifact item (plus one per 2 XP in the cost of the chosen magic item if you were to create it if the item is in fact magic) and triggered by a logical decision, an existential output produces the desired item, as true creation, then enchants it the desired amount. It may only enchant items which require a CL of no greater than your ECL and a craft check of no greater than your UMD or Diplomacy check, chosen when the theory is first prepared. However, the enchanting is instantaneous and only requires ebbs, no materials or EXP. The item must be chosen when the theory is first prepared, but can be changed as a logical decision.

How sillily broken is this? I know it pretty easily produces infinite ebbs, but given the Caloric Theory, that seems to be easy (especially after seeing Arcanist's method of using a kinetomantic transformer on the earth) once you have ARCD theories. Which numbers need to be changed, and how much? Should I make any obvious large changes?

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