By the Inferior Science of our Enemies: Gramarie Mark II

[The_Final_Stand]

Universalists can take Specialist Magisterial principles at Doctorate level, but does something similar hold true for Specialist Baccalaureate principles at Magisterial level? Because that's not explicitly stated in the entry, but it seems a reasonable assumption.

[Mithril Leaf]

Alchemetry discoveries say that you must be have 16 HD for all platinum related material.

[Kellus]

Universalists can take Specialist Magisterial principles at Doctorate level, but does something similar hold true for Specialist Baccalaureate principles at Magisterial level? Because that's not explicitly stated in the entry, but it seems a reasonable assumption.

It does indeed, and I rewrote the relevant paragraph to get this across. Thank you!

And, for what it's worth, I think item familiars are incredibly lame and would not allow them. But if other people like them, whatever makes you happy!

[Mithril Leaf]

It does indeed, and I rewrote the relevant paragraph to get this across. Thank you!

And, for what it's worth, I think item familiars are incredibly lame and would not allow them. But if other people like them, whatever makes you happy!

Most of the time you don't need them to hit 100 for your skill if dumpster dive a bit for bonuses. +30 competence bonus from your big item, +15 insight bonus from a wand or miracle'd divine insight, 23 ranks, a normal masterwork tool, the specific masterwork tool, taking 10, a nice +8 or so from your ability modifier (assuming it's your main) gets you up to 90. Assorted skill specific bonus take care of the rest, for example an ALCH specialist grabs the +6 from synergy bonuses as well as some amazing quality glamerweave pants and the +2 feats to hit that even 100.

[Arcanist]

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A Treatise On The Origins Of The City Of Brass And The Grander Plane Of Fire
-By Mithril Leaf, the minor scholar of Alchemetry and Practicing Fiend Binder

Now, it is a well known fact that every fireball drains a bit of heat from the Elemental Plane of Fire. Yet it is also known that the plane itself never becomes any less fiery, despite countless sorcerers wasting it's heat for scorching monsters. One must wonder how this is even possible. Now the leading theory suggests that the plane itself is truly infinite in size, but that requires several assumptions that go against all of known science. There exists also the thought chain that the plane requires no fuel source due to it's existence as an Elemental Plane. But all the other elements are in fact material, thus something could in fact be made of them. Yet fire is different, fire has no sustenance. Instead, I postulate that the Elemental Plane of Fire was in fact created by a branch of ancient civilization that lived alongside the Loden.

Well yes, that's all well and good you say, but how on Earth does a mortal society create an entire Elemental Plane? I would have to respond that they did it through the use of master level Gramarie, the same science you and I are working with today. You see, there are rumors going around that the masters of this very university are beginning to uncover the basics of Theories, a branch of Gramarie that alters the very fabric of existence. I acquired an ancient text from a desperate imp, that found it sitting in the depths of the Abyss long abandoned, which details one such Theory. It states that a master of Kaleidomantics would be able to create a great ever expanding sphere of Planetary Metal by collapsing his yellow filter with a massive charge.

But how does this relate to the Plane of Fire, you ask yet again. Well it is simple. What is the best way to harvest this metal? By melting off the outside of it of course! I believe that a group of these ancient Gramarists created a massive plane and filled it with huge orbs designed to harness this metal and shape it into usable forms. They created these orbs through simple Alchemetric principles that even one as unskilled as myself can utilize. The immense heat generated by the Phlogiston used to melt the metal and capture it was simply released into this immense plane as waste heat. And so it grew. Now this may seem like a load of hogswash to you, but there is one compelling piece of evidence for this theory. It's name? The City of Brass.
The City of Brass is created from vast amounts of what is otherwise an expensive metal, on what clearly resembles the City Biome that even basic Geocultist students can create. And what would being of such vast cosmic power do with their free time? They likely created the city as a plaything, populating it with advanced Biollurgical Chassis that later evolved into the various salamanders and genies. Can the doctors of modern Biollurgy not create chassis that itself can grant wishes as the genies do?

Now all of this remains hypothetical, but does it not strike a chord in your mind? Is this not a more logical explanation for an immense area full of something so unlasting that has withstood so long than simply saying that a wizard did it? As more of these reality altering theses are discovered, I have no doubt that our understanding will come to align even closer with this idea I have put forward.

Arcanist: I prettied up your post.

Interesting theory on the origin of the elemental planes. I'm curious, what other planes might be twisted to have Gramarie origins... I'm curious, what you believe the origins for the Elemental plane of Water and the Outer Planes are. It has been noted time and time again that the Astral Planes are the original building blocks of the multiverse. Another question would be the origins of the Far Realm if we are to believe that the Astral Plane are the building blocks, perhaps the Far realms are the home to the builder?

Regardless, I must return to reality and ask when the Gramarie PrC will be updated to allow for late integration without completely delaying the build as an entirety (For example: A Gramarist (YGGD/HEUR) 11 / Asternomist 6 / Millwight 3 can go through his entire career without obtain Doctorate level principles (In fact, I think they would have every single possible principle they can obtain... What then?).

[Necroticplague]

Interesting theory on the origin of the elemental planes. I'm curious, what other planes might be twisted to have Gramarie origins... I'm curious, what you believe the origins for the Elemental plane of Water and the Outer Planes are. It has been noted time and time again that the Astral Planes are the original building blocks of the multiverse. Another question would be the origins of the Far Realm if we are to believe that the Astral Plane are the building blocks, perhaps the Far realms are the home to the builder?

Meh, the far realms are clearly the result of abuse of the theories of Monstrous Ecology, Chaos, and Irreducible Complexity. The original squad of grammarists that made it are probably really, reall, long dead, or else subsumed into their own creation. The reason that the physics and biome seem to change so randomly, but the creatures living their don't mind, is because they carry their own environment with them , their predatory nature being a necessity as they dwindle from their body dwindling to fuel such. The most powerful entities create smaller selves in their image through the use of Supernatural features that can create, such as Brassbush, or can reach massive sizes through being a transformer or engine in their own right (creatures that do both are actually producers in this food web, turning environmental conditions into mass which is then eaten by others.The ecology here is not complicated, just weird). This means that someone insane and skilled enough could find almost any part they need for a project within the creatures of this mad place, if only they no what to look for. A leviathan whose very body seems to carry an unnatural rot within it, as whisps of the departed move across it's surface?Tear it open, for withing you shall find a heart of lead, already serving as a mobile pole attuned to the swamp.Or even for those who are just as insane, but less skilled grammarist, there is stil lmuch to be gained by hunting these creatures. For some can produce such things as gems and metals of the ascended degree within their wn bodies, if only they are fed from stores of lesser metals. The environments and bubbles many of the creatures have is kinda like how some bacteria secrete antibiotics-they create an environment the creature can survive in, but which is hopefully lethal to others.

[Arcanist]

Gramarie-Lord

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If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants.

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by DavidLister

If knowledge is power, then surely Omniscience is omnipotence. For eons the strongest of races have survived strictly by being smarter, or stronger than another, this is one of the basic principles of natural selection postulated by a certain Biollurgist whose name has been lost to the ages. centuries ago, on a distant world, there were a group of people who referred to themselves as the Lords of Gramarie, or Gramarie-Lords and however strange that name was, it was quite accurate as their powers over the arts of Gramarie were nigh unchallengeable and now you walk that same path.

Requirements: To become a Gramarie-Lord you must meet all of the following requirements.
Gramarie: 6 different principles from 6 different disciplines
Skills: Knowledge (architecture and engineering) 13 ranks, 13 ranks in any other two Gramarie Principle skills
Feat: Complex Mathemagics, Ingenious Engineer
Specialization: Must be a Universalist

Hit Die: d6
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 6 + Int modifier

Class Skills: A Gramarie-Lord's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Appraise (Int), Autohypnosis (Wis), Bluff (Cha), Craft (Int), Concentration (Con), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Int), Escape Artist (Dex), Forgery (Int), Gather Information (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Knowledge (architecture and engineering) (Int), Knowledge (dungeoneering) (Int), Knowledge (local) (Int), Knowledge (nature) (Int), Knowledge (the Planes) (Int), Knowledge (psionics) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Listen (Wis), Open Lock (Dex), Profession (Wis), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis) and Use Magic Device (Cha).

Gramarie-Lord

Level	BAB	Fort	Ref	Will	Special	Principles	0th	1st	2nd	3rd	4th	5th	6th
1st	+0	+0	+0	+2	Unfocused Specialist, Intuitive Aptitude, Discipline Focus	+1	3	0	-	-	-	-	-
2nd	+1	+0	+0	+3	Anima Fusion (+1), Eldritch Blast +1d6	+2	3	2	0	-	-	-	-
3rd	+1	+1	+1	+3	Discipline Focus	+2	3	3	2	-	-	-	-
4th	+2	+1	+1	+4	Anima Fusion (+2), Intuitive Aptitude, Eldritch Blast +1d6	+3	3	3	3	1	-	-	-
5th	+2	+1	+1	+4	Discipline Focus, Powered by Magic!	+4	3	3	3	2	0	-	-
6th	+3	+2	+2	+5	Anima Fusion (+3), Eldritch Blast +1d6	+5	3	3	3	3	2	-	-
7th	+3	+2	+2	+5	Intuitive Aptitude	+5	4	3	3	3	3	1	-	-
8th	+4	+2	+2	+6	Anima Fusion (+4), Eldritch Blast +1d6	+6	4	4	4	3	3	2	0	-
9th	+4	+3	+3	+6	Discipline Focus	+7	4	4	4	4	4	3	2
10th	+5	+3	+3	+7	Anima Fusion (+5), Intuitive Aptitude, Theory of Everything	+7	4	4	4	4	4	4	4

Spells: Even with an understanding of all Gramarie, a Gramarist still only understands the very basics of arcane science. A Gramarie-Lord learns how to cast spells like the most powerful of Wizards and the most studious of Archivist. Starting at 1st level the Gramarie-Lord can cast and learn any spell. To prepare spells they must consult a textbook which mechanically functions like a Wizard's spellbook. The spells the Gramarist can cast as Arcane or Divine depending on their source. When casting these spells you are treated as having a caster level equal to twice your class level, but no higher than your HD.

Principles of Gramarie: You continue to advance your study of gramarie. At 1st level, and again whenever indicated on the class table, you learn a new principle of gramarie that you qualify for. To determine what tier of principles you can access, you add your Gramarist level and your levels in this class. For example: A 10th level Gramarist with 4 levels in Gramarie-Lord can learn Doctorate-level principles.

Unfocused Specialist (Ex): To understand the basics of arcane science, you must realize that all Gramarie is unified into one single discipline. Once you understand this you no longer take the -10 penalty normally associated with using Knowledge (architecture and engineering) for preparing principles.

Discipline Focus: For each discipline of Gramarie there are a group of people who consider themselves there master; The Dreamasons, the Groughtsman, the Contractors, etc. But you? You are something else entirely, instead of mastering just a single one, you aim to master them all; To that end, you study extensively to master each of them. At 1st level and every 2 levers thereafter you gain may select a single Discipline and gain a +2 bonus to either Knowledge (Architecture and Engineering) or the associated skill for that Discipline (you choose) when preparing any principles of that Discipline.

Intuitive Aptitude: From the day you decided to seek an absolute mastery over Gramarie until the day you die, you have known this... Hunger... A hunger for knowledge... At first level and every three level thereafter you can learn a discovery, but only a single discovery from any discipline (that is, if you already know a discovery from a discipline, you cannot select another discovery from that discipline with this class feature).

Anima Fusion (Su): Mixing principles is one of the most basic techniques for any Gramarist, however you take this to an extreme. At 2nd level and every even numbered level thereafter, when using your Eldritch Anima ability you can apply an additional principle to your blast. In addition to this, you continue to gain a new Eldritch Animas.

Powered by Magic! (Ex): At 5th level, by melding together the collective knowledge of Gramarie and magic, you gain access to a special arcanodynamic transformer:

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• Adamantine: An Adamantine transformer channels magical energy by creating a field that dissipates spells or by transforming energy into eldritch power.
  
  • Input: Eldritch input absorbs spells and spell-like abilities which enter the net. This applies only to effects which are normally vulnerable to spell resistance. Any spell or spell-like ability which targets anything inside the net or which passes through the net in the case of a projectile spell (such as an magic missile is subject to the absorption effect. The net has an effective spell resistance of 5 + 5 for every principle you knew when you prepared this principle (preparing this principle again lets you update the DC later on). An adamantine net generates a number of ebbs equal to the spell level absorbed squared (Spell level * Spell level).
  • Output: Eldritch output transforms energy either into raw magical power or into a specifically prepared spell. The choice is made when this principle is used and the transformer is first established. If raw magical power is selected, the field spontaneously generates a bolt of magical power whenever a transformation happens. By default this bolt strikes the nearest living creature for 1d6 untyped damage per ebb (this is a supernatural ability), as a ranged touch attack; the transformer is treated as a weapon in this case. The bolt can be aimed by anyone holding the transformer. In either case, there is a maximum range on the bolt of 100ft. per ebb transformed.
    Alternatively, a spell can be cast into the transformer when it is first prepared. If the transformer then absorbs a number of ebbs at least equal to the spell level cubed (Spell level * Spell level * Spell level) of the particular spell it is keyed to, it then activates the spell in its memory. If the spell chosen has costly material components or an XP cost, 50 times that amount of the resource must be sacrificed when the transformer is first created. All relevant decisions as far as targetting or other controlled aspects of the spell are decided ahead of time by the Gramarie-Lord preparing the transformer, or can be overridden by someone holding the transformer. If a lesser number of ebbs are absorbed, the energy is instead transformed into a raw magical bolt as described above. An adamantine output can be used to charge further transformers with the same spell, but the same price for XP costs and material components needs to be paid. A transformer or a heuristical circuit which it is attached to cannot pay XP themselves, but a willing subject touching the circuit can contribute their XP towards the project.

Theory of Everything: You finally attain the level of power that you were promised when you started your training. You finally learn the Theory of Everything.

I think I've finally realized what the best Discipline is... ALL OF THEM! Omniscience is Omnipotence! I liked the Silver Transformer, I just felt that it was way too powerful for what it gave anyone. For a while there were some discussions about fixing the Transformer to make it harder to generate higher level spells, but nothing was ever done. For a while, the consensus was that the cost for spells should be squared, but I disagreed. No, a measly 81 ebbs for True creation is pathetic... So I decided to make it cubed so now it cost 729 ebbs to replicate such effects. I changed the material required for the Transformer because Silver is obscenely easy to obtain from sources like... ALCH 286. No, a Transformer of this quality must be difficult to construct, expensive and of Artifact quality dare I say? Thoughts, comments, opinions?

EDIT: WOW not even 30 seconds for me to realize what I've just done... Screw it, I'm just changing the Input to only generate a number of ebbs squared... Power does get lost in transit right?

[Omnicrat]

I like it. The costs seem fine, but you can still get infinite adaminine with gramarie.

[Arcanist]

I like it. The costs seem fine, but you can still get infinite adaminine with gramarie.

How can you get Adamantine with Gramarie? Please tell me I didn't overlook something

EDIT: If you are suggesting the use of the Yellow aether, I don't think that allows for the replication of Adamantine or are we just working with the assumption that it can make any metal, Planetary and under?

[Coryen]

Well, the GEOC 235 principle can place 'mineral deposits', so, since Adamantine is clearly not an animal or a vegetable (until Biollurgists get access to it for an hour!), you can place veins of it with Geo 235.

Basically, Geoc 235 solves all your resource needs... If you are willing to invest time and labor. Spectroconstruction produces a lot of labor, but still requires effort on your part. Plus there is the upkeep of the Geoccult pole to consider. It can almost always be self sustaining (just have it turn all the ground it's touching into pure (whatever its made of) to fuel it, and all you need to do is make sure you keep shoveling in enough mass to fuel your matter production.

Other ways to get a ton of Adamantine: Perhaps a master of Alchemetry could make some, perhaps it could be mined in the depths of space, or Wished for with powerful reality-altering machines.

The more powerful and plentiful gramarists are, the less valuable any mundane resource will become. And yes, compared to A Yellow Kaleidomantic field, Adamantine is pretty mundane.

[Arcanist]

Well, the GEOC 235 principle can place 'mineral deposits', so, since Adamantine is clearly not an animal or a vegetable (until Biollurgists get access to it for an hour!), you can place veins of it with Geo 235.

Curses, foiled by the self-sustaining mine//factory... I feel even worse because I figured out how to improve upon it... It will be an infinite supply and takes away the rarity of the production of Adamantine... Fantastic, now I have to find non-natural metals that you can't obtain without Gramarie.

House Industries - Multisectional Production line

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Name: Multi-sectional production line
Principles: GEOC 117, GEOC 235, BIOY 101, BIOY 228, BIOY 283, HEUR 101, HEUR 245, HEUR 302, ALCH 286, ALCH 325, YGGD 101, YGGD 241
Discoveries: Rabbit Hole
Materials: A pocket full of dreams!
Patent: Arcanist doing it Thomas Edison style
Summary:

Creating massive assembly lines can be fairly imposing at first, but I assure you it is quite easy to create and is often for the best.

Step 0. Establish a Heuristic bubble as large as you will need production to be and then you establish a series of Abnormal Behaviors:

Step 1. Establish an Abnormal Behavior to dedicated towards creating and deconstructing a Cavernous Biome with functional Mining Carts, once the Biome is created, you must feed the pole by creating a large piece of Gold, as large as you can create. As the Biome consumes the Gold, you must establish the Abnormal Behavior to constantly increase it's density so that it never expires.

Step 2. Establish an Abnormal Behavior dedicated to the mass production of biollurgical manual labor. These Biollurgical Chassi are circuited and have an incongruous pathway connected to a control point that I recommend you keep on your person. The Heuristic Circuit is connected through a rabbit hole that allows you to switch between circuited state (where you are in control) and instinct state (where they mine based entirely on instinct). Placing grafts on to the Chassi may help arm them in case combat becomes necessary or to strengthen themselves when mining.

Step 3. Find your desired goal! You're assembly line is ready to run!

Optional: It is entirely optional to add an EI as well (if you are able, as this mostly requires you to be a Universalist), however I am against the idea of allowing any form of potential defiance, at least when you are controlling the circuited Chassi they will not defy you.

[EdroGrimshell]

Curses, foiled by the self-sustaining mine//factory... I feel even worse because I figured out how to improve upon it... It will be an infinite supply and takes away the rarity of the production of Adamantine... Fantastic, now I have to find non-natural metals that you can't obtain without Gramarie.

Cyrite, any planar metals, star metal, blue ice (it's ice, and, as such, not a mineral)

[General Patton]

Is there any possibility of having an Epic Feat that grants an additional Theory?

Also, can someone with Divine Rank 0 on their demiplane from the YGGD Theory attain higher Divine Ranks through worship or Platinum Transformers and would this still be limited to their demiplane?

[Arcanist]

Cyrite, any planar metals, star metal, blue ice (it's ice, and, as such, not a mineral)

Tell me of these "Planar metals"

[RFLS]

How would a Silver-In transformer interact with fast healing? Are we talking Fort save, or does the fast healing simply occur because it's not a magical effect?

[Omnicrat]

You could have it be the tarrasque transform. You need to cut a living 1x1x1 chunk out of the tarrasque (or other gigantic terrible life) then apply the principle to it. If the tarrasque ever gets killed, all tarrasque transformers shrivel up and die. Sound good?

[EdroGrimshell]

Tell me of these "Planar metals"

They can be found in various sourcebooks, including Arms & Equipment Guide, Book of Exalted Deeds, Book of Vile Darkness, Manual of the Planes, Planar Handbook, and the Fiendish Codexes (one of them anyway, not sure about the other one).

They're essentially metals that only form on the outer planes because of certain factors within the planes, like Abyssal Blood Iron requiring the shed blood of thousands of demons, devils, and corrupted souls to bleed into the soil and rock and iron below and turns it into Abyssal Blood Iron over time. Because of this, they're not technically "natural" metals, though some GMs may rule otherwise.

Cyrite, on the other hand, is just iron exposed to large amounts of "magic radiation" from the Mourning (Eberron Campaign Setting) that it gained magical properties (as in, can overcome damage reduction as if it was magic). That's most certainly unnatural metal.

[atriusnight]

1) A Bio 101 question, after a creature has been converted to biostructure.. what is the effect?
Are they treated like one created from the 200 level? Is it purely Cosmetic?

2)Advanced Placement
It doesn't specify but the wording seems to imply that while removing the prereqs it doesn;t actually grant the principle in question.. If this is the case it might help cut down confusion to specify it explicitly.

3)so.. Identify powers..
What is the interaction of Gramarie with Detect magic? What schools is it? Or does it have schools?
Would it register as the path the principles involve are from? basically giving the 'schools'(disciplines) of Gramerie instead of Magic? And would a wizard unfamiliar with such things be able to get it? Would it require Knowledge (architcture and engineering) rather than spellcraft to figure out the principles involved..?

EDIT: P.S. Love the project and system and such.

[Arcanist]

They can be found in various sourcebooks, including Arms & Equipment Guide, Book of Exalted Deeds, Book of Vile Darkness, Manual of the Planes, Planar Handbook, and the Fiendish Codexes (one of them anyway, not sure about the other one).

They're essentially metals that only form on the outer planes because of certain factors within the planes, like Abyssal Blood Iron requiring the shed blood of thousands of demons, devils, and corrupted souls to bleed into the soil and rock and iron below and turns it into Abyssal Blood Iron over time. Because of this, they're not technically "natural" metals, though some GMs may rule otherwise.

Cyrite, on the other hand, is just iron exposed to large amounts of "magic radiation" from the Mourning (Eberron Campaign Setting) that it gained magical properties (as in, can overcome damage reduction as if it was magic). That's most certainly unnatural metal.

I see, I'll investigate that myself

On another note: I'm curious if it would be possibly to restructure yourself as a Biollurgical Chassi from a Planetary metal that can be ascended into a new metal. Most notably, Orichalcum, Sunmetal or Quicksilver (most likely not as you would have to perform the entire procedure in below freezing conditions to prevent death by melting).

Of course this entire thought process relies strictly upon the entire idea that a Living creature turned into a Biostructure and into a Chassis given sentience would resume life as if it was never a structure (beyond the obvious changes). So Kellus, what say you? Does a Gramarist retain their intelligence, class levels, etc. It would certainly make Immortality more readily attainable to a Gramarist, but it would also make transforming living people into circuited-sentient biostructures more... Appealing

[Coryen]

If you are looking to balance a class feature around a rare mineral or material, with Gramarie, its either impossible or setting dependent.

Geoc 235 can make mundane terrain features (GMs may rule Adamantine beyond mundane, which is fine) but Geoc 374 can make even supernatural terrain features.

So, you say this blood iron stuff needs to be drenched in the blood of demons and tormented souls? Well, if mundane materials have concrete chemical formulas, then magical materials might have arcane formulas, but formulas none-the-less. A gramarist of doctorate level should be able to understand even esoteric qualities of materials, such as magical qualities, as well as they understand the physical qualities. After all, magic is just another branch of physics to a Gramarist.

Unless there is a material that cannot be reproduced by gramarie, it cannot be any more valuable than any other material since space druids can turn piles of dirt into piles of platinum!

I do believe Star-trek had this same issue: No one used currency, because of matter fabricators, until a material that no one could fabricate was found...

If you did find, or introduce into a setting, a material that was unreproducible, most likely gramarists around the world would labor long and hard to reach Level 20 to find the theory necessary to reproduce it, and thus reap the rewards of controlling the market!

... In any case, Adamantine is probably fine as a material, depending on availability of Geoccultists of 7th+ Level (No small feat really) or 14th+ Level (A very impressive level indeed). If its to the point where Adamantine is flooding the market and isn't a good balancing factor, then it doesn't matter any more: The Gramarists have already won.

[Arcanist]

If you are looking to balance a class feature around a rare mineral or material, with Gramarie, its either impossible or setting dependent.

Geoc 235 can make mundane terrain features (GMs may rule Adamantine beyond mundane, which is fine) but Geoc 374 can make even supernatural terrain features.

So, you say this blood iron stuff needs to be drenched in the blood of demons and tormented souls? Well, if mundane materials have concrete chemical formulas, then magical materials might have arcane formulas, but formulas none-the-less. A gramarist of doctorate level should be able to understand even esoteric qualities of materials, such as magical qualities, as well as they understand the physical qualities. After all, magic is just another branch of physics to a Gramarist.

Unless there is a material that cannot be reproduced by gramarie, it cannot be any more valuable than any other material since space druids can turn piles of dirt into piles of platinum!

I believe you are misunderstanding my intent. Even without Gramarie a single market can be destroyed by anyone with at least one rank in Knowledge (System mastery) so generally? It doesn't matter. If I really wanted to develop a currency for my system, I would just make up my own (Hell, I can even go with Bottle Caps, if I REALLY feel like it). Why don't I? Hmm... Ego I suppose

No, If I am going to homebrew something I will try to make it loyal to a specifically dedicated material (whether that material is homebrew or not? WELL! That is for another day). Thus far in my game we're using Adamantine, Platinum, Star metal and something else, I can't remember at the moment. Why? Because they're either impossible to obtain or at the point that you obtain them it would be ridiculous to even use it for anything else, but Gramarie. Anywho! Getting back to where I wanted to take this, the main reason I want to make the new Transformer so difficult to obtain, is because I want it to be difficult to obtain in any campaign setting. A Gramarie-Lord has, at his disposal, an endless amount of resources for the construction of their ultimate weapon. The construction of an (at the moment) Adamantine Transformer should be something of a once in a lifetime occurrence for any world with Gramarie.

I do believe Star-trek had this same issue: No one used currency, because of matter fabricators, until a material that no one could fabricate was found...

If you did find, or introduce into a setting, a material that was unreproducible, most likely gramarists around the world would labor long and hard to reach Level 20 to find the theory necessary to reproduce it, and thus reap the rewards of controlling the market!

Perhaps, but I am still skeptical (HA!) towards the idea of GEOC 235 being able to spontaneously create mineral deposits. Eventually you're going to have to ask the question of "What constitutes a mineral deposit?" Is it exclusive to Planetary metals? Can it also include any other kind of metal? Mithral? Alchemical Silver? Aurorum? I'll pardon the fallacy-fallacy if you pardon the slippery slope

... In any case, Adamantine is probably fine as a material, depending on availability of Geoccultists of 7th+ Level (No small feat really) or 14th+ Level (A very impressive level indeed). If its to the point where Adamantine is flooding the market and isn't a good balancing factor, then it doesn't matter any more: The Gramarists have already won.

I prefer taking the scientific method approach towards homebrew. Think of all the ways you can possibly destroy the world with a piece and when you run out, your Homebrew is perfect. The Gramarist's "saving grace" is that it requires time and contrary to popular belief, when in the field a Gramarist doesn't always have the time they need and Ingenious Engineer can only get you so far. Having said ALL of that, you are quite accurate in your statement. The Gramarist is perfect in it's imperfection

[Omnicrat]

No one liked the Tarrasque Transformer idea?

[Milo v3]

No one liked the Tarrasque Transformer idea?

Tarrasque would be an infinite resource, since you can keep taking chunks out of it for all time as long as you don't Miracle or Wish it dead....
How did I not think of using it for Biollurgy before...

[Coryen]

...
Perhaps, but I am still skeptical (HA!) towards the idea of GEOC 235 being able to spontaneously create mineral deposits. Eventually you're going to have to ask the question of "What constitutes a mineral deposit?" Is it exclusive to Planetary metals? Can it also include any other kind of metal? Mithral? Alchemical Silver? Aurorum? I'll pardon the fallacy-fallacy if you pardon the slippery slope
...

I'll grant you its worded vaguely, but near as I can tell, its one of the purposes of Geoccultism. I played a Geoccultism specialist in a game. They are darn near worthless without that particular phrase. Ending the resource hunt at level 7 is pretty reasonable, since at that point, a gramarist can do so easily. (At minimum by just doing his job in the service of others, and buying bars of metal with the pay)

On another topic: While I waited for Kellus to return from whatever Far Realm he disappears to, I had an itch to run a game with gramarie, but, (this was before the most recent update) at the time, there were too few principles and such. I spent a bit of time brainstorming some possible expansions on various additional options to sort of fill out a gramarist's list of options.
None are finished and almost none have more than a short phrase or description, but if anyone is interested, I'll include the list below. I might do writeups later or something if people are interested, but I am sure Kellus can do just fine himself.

Spoiler

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(S) - Indicates a Specialist-only option.
(A) - Indicates a priciple any gramarist can take
(?) - Indicates I either did not know yet, or did not care)

Yggdratecture

Baccalaureate
(B) Mass/Volume Reducing Semispace (This lets you take a single object, and 'store' matter in it, including gramarie devices; the main benefit is that the stored matter can interact with the outside world, but it cannot project any bubbles, such as from Heuristic Circuits among other things, any farther than the dimensions of the storing object itself) (The intention was to let you make handheld devices, but not miniaturize entire machines; this is most certainly broken without limits, which I have given no thought to)

(A) Dimension Lock Field/Ghost Touch (can render an object or surface ghost touch, or create a bubble of dimension lock; this does what it says: protects you and your family from YGGD shenanigans.)

Magisterial
(?) Mobius Field (Can create a bubble that warps space, 'teleporting' things entering the field to the opposite side; essentially creates an area it is impossible to enter via conventional means, but easy to leave)

Alchemetry

Baccalaureate
(?) Electron Exchange (Convert items on a 10:1 ratio, both gold value, volume, and mass)(This principle would be simple: It lets you convert stuff into other stuff, at a bad exchange rate, essentially, the rate is 10:1, but of the worst of Gold Value, Volume of the converted matter, and Mass; Need a Silver Weapon soon to slay a werewolf? a silver longsword is 105 Gp, so you'd need 1050 GP worth of gear to get a single sword, and about 40 lbs of converted material, and volume of said material equal to about 10 swords, so you can't just convert some 2000 Gp diamond into a sword)

(S) Memetic Matter (take a -20 on check, alteration becomes Memetic; Lead to gold on contact, etc; Someone suggested this, it's cool, and should probably be it's own thing, if not a discovery; The idea is that the Alch principle becomes 'contagious' if it contacts more material of the same original variety; so if you used this with ALCH 101 to make an ordinary Iron bar have higher hardness, this lets the iron bar pass on it's additional hardness to any other ordinary iron it contacts)

Magisterial
(S) Equivalent Exchange (Convert items on a 2:1 ratio, both gold value, volume, and mass; As the above option, but improved; this should probably require the above option)

Arcanodynamics
(I note no materials in particular, as I didn't get there yet)

Baccalaureate
(A) Exotic Transformers:
Pushin/out (1 ebb = 20 push)
Laborin/out (1 Ebb = 1000 Manhours of work)
(The Poor mans Eldrikinetics options; make factories in a flash!)

(S) Concept in/out:
Lifein/out (1 negative level/5d6 energy = 5 ebbs)
Knowledgein/out (1 int damage = 1 ebb; +1 to knowledge check = 1 ebb, max your int mod)
(The new Silver in/outs do some of this)

Magisterial
Physics Transformers
Gravity in/out (1x earth grav = 1 ebb, or divide by ebbs)
Timein/out (stasis field in = 2 ebbs, haste field out = 3 ebbs)
(No idea about these, mechanics-wise, but the idea is simple enough; Hehe, simple)

Biollurgy

Baccalaureate
(A) Synthesized Medicine (Poisons, medicines, healing fluids; this lets you make these things, and repair injurys at Cleric-speed AKA you can use Cure X Wounds stuff with this, except it works on anyone, even the undead, just fine; The Key skill for this discipline is HEAL, so you should be flat out the best at HEALING. Need I say more?)
(S)Biological Tinkering (Inherent bonuses) (Roll real high, give out the inherent bonuses; I was thinking on the order of Check/20 is what you are giving out, so if you can get a check of 100, you give out the full +5 Inherent bonus, as they don't stack with themselves)

Magisterial
(S) Chimera Creation (Take 2 or more creatures, staples them together, then you exclaim 'SCIENCE' and call it done. Thats what this does.)

Eldrikinetics

Baccalaureate
(S) Refined Fuel (Reduce mass and volume of fuel 100:1) (While I brainstormed a YGGD option that would do this 100x better, and YGGD101 does this pretty much as well, I felt it should be directly addressed)
(A) Flight Engine (Like an Orthagonal Engine, but Fly at Poor? Manueverability) (Really? Flight only for specialists at tier 2?)

Magisterial
(S) Flux Capacitor (Supply 2 Ebbs, double vehicle's speed; supply 121 Ebbs per 5' traveled, travel during a timestop) (Spend a ton of Ebbs, go 'instantly'; as in, it doesn't even cost you an action, since it happens outside time)

Geocultism

Baccalaureate
(S) Garden of Eden (Store potion effects in fruit, plant fruit: tree/plant produces fruit with that effect) (This is like the Brassgrass, only lower level; it lets you generate adventuring resources for the party between adventures; the fruit must grow at the normal rate for an ordinary plant unless you have other shenanigans)

(A) Advanced Geotechture (Can create structures out of natural terrain; can use Spectroconstruction to grow plants and care for animals; This lets you make dens out of packed earth, weave trees together to make walls and furniture, etc and lets you spend your free man hours to do it and more)

Magisterial
(S)Arcane Horticulture (Spend 1 ebb to grow a plant for a Month in a day; plants grown this way hold those ebbs like a battery, up to a maximum of # ebbs necessary to reach fruit-bearing maturity or equivalent) (The idea is you can bypass the growing length by spending ebbs to supercharge the growth rate, and the side effect is the product is, in fact, supercharged)

Heuristics
(I lost my notes)

Imachination

Baccalaureate
(A)Sensory Feedback (Spectral display provides factual information about area in bubble, and connected circuits) (Your illusion isn't for deception, but a display allowing for you to ask a specific question of the area it is to be employed; so you could make a wand that detects Wizards, and it would make anyone of the Wizard class glow, for example, but sorcerers, warlocks, and any other profession are exempt, you must be specific)

(S) Zone of Falsehoods (Misdirects divination effects by providing false information)(This lets your illusions lie to divination effects; Example: You make an illusion of a dragon. Party wizard casts 'Detect Dragon'; He Detects a dragon as appropriate.)

Magisterial
(S) Shadow Conjuration (Effect produced is 1% real for each ebb spent in its creation, max of check roll) (Lets you spend ebbs to make your illusions semi-real)

Kaleidomantics

Baccalaureate
(A) Color Inversion (Reverse the weakness of field and it's blocked effect, opposite fields cancel out) (Lets you craft a Kaleidomantic field that does the opposite)
(S) Prismatic Emmission (light passed through specially prepared barrier + Ebbs = repulsion field repelling that effect, STR check of bullrush/block = Ebbs+5) (It lets you use the Kaleidomantic filter as a filter for actual light, but the ebbs channeled into the filter supercharge the light and give the radiated light the properties of the filter, pushing back and repelling what they normally block)

Magisterial
(S)Negation Field (Special field + 1 ebb/round = Field deals damage equal to check value to any warded effect attempting to pass through, but does not stop) (This makes the field attempt to destroy what it normally blocks, instead of blocking it!)

If anyone wants to use any of this stuff, I have no problem with it, as right now I have far too much to do, and will likely not finish these writeups anytime this year.

[Mithril Leaf]

No one liked the Tarrasque Transformer idea?

You can do the same thing at level one with a dozen commoners and a few trees for a lot less difficulty. Just have them create normal biostructure.

EDIT: It's also probably the lowest level always on generator you can make that produces more than 30 ebbs a round by itself.

[Omnicrat]

You can do the same thing at level one with a dozen commoners and a few trees for a lot less difficulty. Just have them create normal biostructure.

EDIT: It's also probably the lowest level always on generator you can make that produces more than 30 ebbs a round by itself.

... Either you misunderstood my Tarrasque transformer, I misunderstood my Tarasque transformer, or you are not talking about my Tarrasque transformer.

[Mithril Leaf]

... Either you misunderstood my Tarrasque transformer, I misunderstood my Tarasque transformer, or you are not talking about my Tarrasque transformer.

Ah, your comment was right after a comment about fast healing and silver transformers, with the legendary part of big T being his astronomical healing rate, so I clearly added them together wrong and misinterpreted your intentions.

[Omnicrat]

Yeah, it was a material for the new generalist PrC Spellouts.

Another alternative could be True Dragon Bonemeal Clay. Take bones of true dragons, grind them to a fine powder, mix with water, let partially dry, and shape. Done!

Maybe make the requirement that they had to be ancient dragons, and no spells can magically reproduce this compound or any components for it?

[Necroticplague]

On the subject of possible currency for grammary-based wordls, I would like to point out that actual goods would probably not be in use for long, given how both A:grammary, used creatively enough can produce near any material. (though if were looking for something it can't, there's something in It's Wet Outside that's water sandwiched inside a wall of force, it's not even remotely a mineral).2: even if metals did become a standard of trade, due to everybody having a use for them, inflation would cause weight to become an issue, since creative use of ALCH, BIOY, and GEOY can create infinite amounts. So if any trading was to be done (assuming that you don't have massive amounts of people going galt), the standard of trade would have to not be something physical, or stand for such.It would either have to be entirely fiat currency whose only value comes from the fact that it's the only valid payment for taxes, or else stand for something less tangible. I would propose that it can be a standard based upon labor: the base of the economy would be that a predetermined amount of money would be tradeable to have somebody prepare certain principles based on the amount. Under this system, debt is created by promising a certain principle as service in payment, and debt is eliminated when the "service IOU" is exchanged for the service is represents.

[sirpercival]

Curses, foiled by the self-sustaining mine//factory... I feel even worse because I figured out how to improve upon it... It will be an infinite supply and takes away the rarity of the production of Adamantine... Fantastic, now I have to find non-natural metals that you can't obtain without Gramarie.

House Industries - Multisectional Production line

Spoiler

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Name: Multi-sectional production line
Principles: GEOC 117, GEOC 235, BIOY 101, BIOY 228, BIOY 283, HEUR 101, HEUR 245, HEUR 302, ALCH 286, ALCH 325, YGGD 101, YGGD 241
Discoveries: Rabbit Hole
Materials: A pocket full of dreams!
Patent: Arcanist doing it Thomas Edison style
Summary:

Creating massive assembly lines can be fairly imposing at first, but I assure you it is quite easy to create and is often for the best.

Step 0. Establish a Heuristic bubble as large as you will need production to be and then you establish a series of Abnormal Behaviors:

Step 1. Establish an Abnormal Behavior to dedicated towards creating and deconstructing a Cavernous Biome with functional Mining Carts, once the Biome is created, you must feed the pole by creating a large piece of Gold, as large as you can create. As the Biome consumes the Gold, you must establish the Abnormal Behavior to constantly increase it's density so that it never expires.

Step 2. Establish an Abnormal Behavior dedicated to the mass production of biollurgical manual labor. These Biollurgical Chassi are circuited and have an incongruous pathway connected to a control point that I recommend you keep on your person. The Heuristic Circuit is connected through a rabbit hole that allows you to switch between circuited state (where you are in control) and instinct state (where they mine based entirely on instinct). Placing grafts on to the Chassi may help arm them in case combat becomes necessary or to strengthen themselves when mining.

Step 3. Find your desired goal! You're assembly line is ready to run!

Optional: It is entirely optional to add an EI as well (if you are able, as this mostly requires you to be a Universalist), however I am against the idea of allowing any form of potential defiance, at least when you are controlling the circuited Chassi they will not defy you.

This will be made somewhat easier when the Chromancer is posted.