Need an RPG for a never-been-playing group

[Fri]

Okay guys, I want to DM to a group of never been playing guys, and I hope I could get some ideas on what game should I set on them.

They're not total newbies, they're fantasy fans already, and played a lot of board games, but never real rpg.

The criterias I'm looking for are:

- Preferably classic fantasy, as close to DnD as possible, but it's the least important criteria now. A generic rpg would work well too. But preferably classic fantasy.

- Preferably not needing grids for combat. I'll use grids as later resorts, but if there's a good game without grids, I'll use that first.

- Simple enough to be learned easily by new players, yet, this is important, tactical enough for board game minded players. I guess this combined with the previous point, not using grids, complicates matter a bit, but I believe there should be a game that fits both criteria. I know some games that doesn't need grids yet tactically complex enough, for example Legend of the Wulin and Exalted, yet they're not classic fantasy.

I hope you guys can help me!

[TheEmerged]

It's not fantasy, but one ruleset I've had good success with newbies is TOON - the original version. It's cartoon characters doing cartoon things using cartoon logic with a system that is a good mix of simple yet flexible.

[Madfellow]

Serenity, an RPG based on the movie of the same name and the TV series that preceded it. You know the one I'm talking about.

It's not fantasy (space western), but it's simple and intuitive. The combat can be played with or without a grid, and encourages the players to use strategy to gain the upper hand in a firefight (use cover, get the high ground, don't be exposed, etc.). I cannot recommend this system enough!

[7RED7]

It's not my favorite system, but I've found that my friends who are more into board/cardgames or videogames have taken to DnD 4e like a fish to water. I started them out on Pathfinder, but they gave 4e a try and just ate it up.

It's just an easy edition to bring people in on. The classes all work roughly the same (your class gives you at-will, encounter, and daily abilities) so you don't have to worry about teaching one guy wizard/sorcerer spell progression vs. divine caster spell progression vs. why they may or may not use Tome of Battle. As restricting as it is, the "roles" system (striker, defender, controller, leader) does help them learn how to work together.

4e is more tactical from the boardgamer's perspective as there are a lot of powers that deal with the ability to move or prevent movement of various targets and it's designed with "spaces/squares" in mind. It's not hard to print out maps from a PDF or just get a "battlemat" and scribble stuff on the grid with dry-erase markers (quicker than you'd think). You make it sound like the players would like something more along those lines but you think it will be more hassle for you.

The miniatures and power cards help keep them engaged. I started my current group out on PF with little to nothing in the way board/minis and it was really easy for them to get distracted. It was easier for them to have stuff to fiddle around with.

Like any game, you can probably get all the material for free if you want to, but their character builder can cover just about everything on the player's side if you or group member are willing to front the subscription. It's pricey, but honestly it saves so much time considering how long it takes them to make characters from scratch and the results are fairly nice when you print them out (cutting out individual power cards really helped to keep them organized until they got the hang of it). If you go that route then just get one sub and share it (I personally maintain my own so that I can use my laptop as a char-sheet when I play with them).

4e is lazy man's fisher-price dnd with training wheels... but it works for the newbies and introduces them to concepts in a (usually) clear way.

[Mastikator]

The strength of roleplaying games over board games and computer games is that you can always substitute mechanical rules with story and "fluff" because the rules are not the center or even the framework, the PCs are the center and the setting is the framework, the rules are the referee.
You can use the Exalted Rules and the Eberron Setting, just tone down what they are allowed to do.

That being said, I've played D&D 3.5 without grids and miniatures and it worked out just fine.

[Yora]

It works, but it's annoying to learn the rules while at the same time significantly altering them. To play without grid, you first have to really understand how grid battle works and what you're doing when you remove it.

I recommend the Dragon Age RPG. Compared to d20 games, the rules are really easy and there's way less pages to read. And Dragon Age is a relatively generic fantasy world to begin with, so the game rules work for a wide range of fantasy worlds as well. The only downside is the relative lack of monsters, but darkspawns can easily stand in for goblins, orcs, and trolls with no changes to their stats. And there should be a good amount of monster files made by players around the internet, that can provide you with more enemies that are not originally in the Dragon Age game.
Large parts of the Basic Low-Level Box are still information on the Dragon Age world. The rules themselves are only 46 pages, and most of it is listing the background, classes, skills, and spells you can chose from. The rules for combat and such are only 9 pages long.

As a simpler form of Dungeon & Dragons, I recommend Myth & Magic. It's based on AD&D 2nd Edition but has been overhauled to streamline the rules similar to D&D 3rd Edition. I think it has the best of both games, being much easier to understand than either of the two, but it's still a fairly big game with lots of rules.

[Driderman]

New players, without a battle grid? Definitely not D&D, especially not 4th edition. It's designed as a tabletop wargame and the mechanics are the only thing holding the battles together, you can't really substitute it with "fluff" or roleplaying.
3.5 is better, but very complicated for new players. For my part, I'd suggest getting a hold of Savage Worlds + Fantasy Companion, or Barbarians of Lemuria. Fast-paced and easy to learn, they are quite well-developed systems. You'll have to do a bit of worldbuilding on your own though if I remember correctly.

[Autolykos]

I think FATE is a good introduction. It's generic, so they don't need to learn a new set of rules if you switch the setting, and it's rules-light, so it's picked up quickly. GURPS (Lite) is more powerful in the long run, but harder to learn. It might frustrate newbies.
If you are looking for something in between (but still WIP), check my sig.

[Velaryon]

I've never understood why people say D&D is not a good system to introduce people with. I and almost all of my friends started roleplaying with D&D. Saying that it's too complicated for a newbie is somewhat insulting, I think. If you're worried about overwhelming people with too many choices, you can start with Core only and just watch out for balance issues as they arise (depending on which edition you use).

Certainly D&D is not a good start for everyone, and it may not be what you're looking for, especially if you want to avoid using a grid system. But the idea that you can't start players off with D&D is patently false.

[Ozfer]

I think that, unfortunately, the answer is almost always Dnd. I personally dislike 4e, but I would still recommend you start with that, for the sole reason that it is good baseline for learning Rpgs in general. After they get comfortable with all the expectations of a tabletop roleplaying game, move on to something more niche, or with a different feel.

[Knaight]

Dragon Age was a good suggestion, but there are a few other options. Warrior, Rogue, and Mage could work, though it isn't hugely tactical without modification - still, there's some tactics.

With that said though, Chronica Feudalis seems like the obvious choice. It's historical rather than fantasy, but to make it fantasy you basically just need to stick it in a fantasy setting and call it a day, the mechanics will work well. There are tactics in combat, and on top of combat CF has solid mechanics for chases, parley, and subterfuge, all of which are just as complex as the combat mechanics (up to and including a system for tool use that actually works well, instead of some binary circumstance bonus).

[Fri]

Thanks guys, I'll check some of your recommendation, particulary dragon age rpg.

The reason why I want something other than DnD is, I'm still not sure how many people would join, and if it will become a real rpg group.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

OLD SCHOOL HACK!

No, really. I don't think you'll regret it. It's free, tactical, fast-flowing, creativity-inducing, and encourages players to play off of one another. It also encourages party teamwork.

The author meshes a classical D&D styling with a streamlined game that doesn't sweat the details...but at the same time, it keeps some neat tactical depth in important areas that I think your boardgamers will really grok.

It's also the single RPG on this thread that makes use of physical components, but it doesn't resort to a battlegrid. You have a rough map where you sketch out different "arenas" for a combat. They're like mini-stages where stuff happens. In a barfight, for instance, there might be a couple of crowded arenas in the main bar area, a narrow arena representing the stairs to the second level, an open arena representing the second-level balcony, and a narrow arena behind the bar. Those are all appropriately connected, and players move around through those as they fight.

Again, free.

(If you're looking for another game that boardgamers will be pleased with, Warhammer Fantasy RP 3rd Edition is an excellent RPG that uses boardgamey props as visual and tactile aids. It's a spendy boxed set, though.)

[Knaight]

It's also the single RPG on this thread that makes use of physical components, but it doesn't resort to a battlegrid. You have a rough map where you sketch out different "arenas" for a combat. They're like mini-stages where stuff happens. In a barfight, for instance, there might be a couple of crowded arenas in the main bar area, a narrow arena representing the stairs to the second level, an open arena representing the second-level balcony, and a narrow arena behind the bar. Those are all appropriately connected, and players move around through those as they fight.

These sound like zones, from FATE. Are they basically the same thing?

EDIT: This has been investigated. They are Zones.

[mcbobbo]

For my part, I'd suggest getting a hold of Savage Worlds + Fantasy Companion, or Barbarians of Lemuria. Fast-paced and easy to learn, they are quite well-developed systems. You'll have to do a bit of worldbuilding on your own though if I remember correctly.

Would have said this. PEG's forum has some links to tools you can use to convert existing world stuff over. I'm running Rise of the Runelords over Savage Worlds in my weekly sessions.

I will say that if you're even moderately experienced with gaming you can probably skip the Fantasy Companion. I bought it, but almost never use it.

One other plug, if they decided they didn't like the fantasy genre, they'd already know the rules for a different one.

[warty goblin]

Try seeing if you can rustle up a copy of the original (non-d20) Sovereign Stone RPG. It's pretty classic fantasy, rules-light, and the sort of thing a person can get playing in maybe half an hour from a standing start.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

These sound like zones, from FATE. Are they basically the same thing?

EDIT: This has been investigated. They are Zones.

Pretty much, but with one difference--each arena has a type. Each weapon gets a bonus in a different type of arena. For instance, I believe a mace gets a bonus in a "close" arena, because you can just smash about in a smaller space. Characters can also move pretty fluidly from arena to arena--as your action, you can toss someone into another arena, or try to block them from leaving the arena.

[Ozfer]

Pretty much, but with one difference--each arena has a type. Each weapon gets a bonus in a different type of arena. For instance, I believe a mace gets a bonus in a "close" arena, because you can just smash about in a smaller space. Characters can also move pretty fluidly from arena to arena--as your action, you can toss someone into another arena, or try to block them from leaving the arena.

I wasn't looking for a system, but this actually sounds really cool. I'm gonna look at this.

[Fri]

OLD SCHOOL HACK!

No, really. I don't think you'll regret it. It's free, tactical, fast-flowing, creativity-inducing, and encourages players to play off of one another. It also encourages party teamwork.

The author meshes a classical D&D styling with a streamlined game that doesn't sweat the details...but at the same time, it keeps some neat tactical depth in important areas that I think your boardgamers will really grok.

It's also the single RPG on this thread that makes use of physical components, but it doesn't resort to a battlegrid. You have a rough map where you sketch out different "arenas" for a combat. They're like mini-stages where stuff happens. In a barfight, for instance, there might be a couple of crowded arenas in the main bar area, a narrow arena representing the stairs to the second level, an open arena representing the second-level balcony, and a narrow arena behind the bar. Those are all appropriately connected, and players move around through those as they fight.

Again, free.

(If you're looking for another game that boardgamers will be pleased with, Warhammer Fantasy RP 3rd Edition is an excellent RPG that uses boardgamey props as visual and tactile aids. It's a spendy boxed set, though.)

Wow, I must be honest. This thing is pretty cool. I'd like to try it even if I'm not playing with this new group.

Definitey going to try this one way or another.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

I offer the caveat that I haven't actually really gotten to try the game either. Just one of those "THIS LOOKS SO AWESOME!" things.

[Knaight]

Pretty much, but with one difference--each arena has a type. Each weapon gets a bonus in a different type of arena. For instance, I believe a mace gets a bonus in a "close" arena, because you can just smash about in a smaller space. Characters can also move pretty fluidly from arena to arena--as your action, you can toss someone into another arena, or try to block them from leaving the arena.

Technically speaking a mace could be defined in a few ways, and how you choose to define it depends on this. With that said, if you go for Heavy it gets a bonus in "close" or "dense" or whatever that was called. Very Heavy doesn't get a type bonus though. With that said though, it is still very much Zones, the aspects just got replaced with types.

One of the upsides of 23 page games is that a thorough investigation is very, very easy. I just read the whole thing, and Red Box Hack while at it.