Support the GITP forums on Patreon
Help support GITP's forums (and ongoing server maintenance) via Patreon
Results 1 to 11 of 11
  1. - Top - End - #1
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Deepbluediver's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    The US of A

    Default Paladin Fix: PrC [3.X, PEACH]

    This is part of my ongoing project to rework the core classes, mechanics, and spells so that any given group is easier to balance. My ideal goal is for things to end up around tier 3-ish.
    Because D&D has so many interconnected issues, it's hard to homebrew in a vaccuum. My class fixes are intended to work best within the context of my other homebrew (see links in my extended sig) but should be usable in any normal game with relatively minor tweaks. If you are really confused about something, please feel free to ask. As always, the spoilers mostly contain notes and explanations as to the WHY of what I did, to hopefully grant insight into my though process, if you want it.
    Spoiler
    Show
    For the paladin, I went back and forth on what exactly to do with the class, and I decided that with all the fluff and special restrictions, Paladins felt more like a PrC than a base class. Hopefully with my other updates to clerics and druids, a given group will not lack for tanky-type classes even when starting at level 1.
    This Paladin is designed for entry around level 5.


    On roleplay
    Spoiler
    Show
    My favorite description/depiction of a paladin is from Elizabeth Moon's novel The Deed of Paksenarrion. In it, paladins are inherently charismatic; anyone who isn't completely evil tends to trust them implicitly and feels drawn to them. They have a role that is a much about inspiration as it is about battling the forces of evil directly; it is laid out that a paladin shows what is possible, but then moves on, often leaving years of work still to be done to repair, build, and protect against the tireless forces of darkness.
    Paladins repay this trust by being courteous and respectful, and pausing to consider a situation and pray for guidance as often as possible. They are NOT self-righteous holier-than-though kill-happy rampaging ********s.
    Your setting, however, might have different expectations. This is why discussing it with the GM first is never a bad idea.



    PALADIN
    Requirements
    To qualify to become a paladin, a character must fulfill all the following criteria:

    Alignment
    Lawful-Good

    Deity
    Any approved by your DM
    Unlike clerics who worship a single deity, most paladins champion a cause; the venerate and receive support from most deities who share at least some aspect of their alignment.

    Weapon & Armor Proficiency
    Proficient with martial weapons and with simple armor

    BAB
    Equal to 2/3 level or better

    Abilities
    Cha 13+

    Special
    Must have proven themselves worthy of upholding the paladin's ideals, usually by defeating an evil encounter with a CR of at least 5 (and gained permission from the DM)
    Spoiler
    Show
    Some classes have a lot of built-in RP requirements, while others are more free-form. The paladin falls heavily into the first group, and I would STRONGLY encourage anyone who wants to play one to sit down with their DM beforehand (out of game) and discuss how the player intends to RP and how strict the DM will be with various questionable actions. At the same time, feel free to arrange a suitably impressive moment for the Paladin-to-be to receive his "calling" if your group is into that sort of storytelling.

    Some of the other requirements (such as BAB) may seem a bit odd. I'm testing things out, but if any of them seem unworkable, please let me know.


    HP per level
    d6+6
    Spoiler
    Show
    All my classes have this altered HD scheme; half their old HD plus base half. (Wizard is d2+2, Rogue is d3+3, Fighter is d5+5, etc). It was a compromise to adjust for the fact that melee-heavy classes tended to have a wider distribution with HP but also suffer more from bad rolls.
    So the paladin now has the equivalent of a d12 HD.

    Skill Points at Each Level
    4 + Int modifier

    Class Skills
    The paladin's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) Concentration (Con), Diplomacy (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (nobility and royalty) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), and Sense Motive (Wis)
    Spoiler
    Show
    One of the many projects on my plate is an overhaul of the skills system. For now, this list is pretty much just a straight copy-pasta of the list in the SRD. It will be updated when I have something else to post.


    Level
    BAB
    Fort Ref Will
    Special
    Spells Per Day
    1st
    +1
    +2 +0 +2 Detect Evil, Aura of Good, Smite Evil (3/day), Weapon Style feat, Force of Presence
    2nd
    +2
    +3 +0 +3 Lay on Hands, Spear or Shield +1 level of existing divine
    3rd
    +3
    +3 +1 +3 Leadership, Extra Aura, Panacea (1/day) +1 level of existing divine
    4th
    +4
    +4 +1 +4 Smite Evil (6/day)
    5th
    +5
    +4 +1 +4 Celestial Companion, Extra Aura, Weapon Style feat +1 level of existing divine
    6th
    +6/+1
    +5 +2 +5 Panacea (3/day) +1 level of existing divine
    7th
    +7/+2
    +5 +2 +5 Smite Evil (10/day), Extra Aura
    8th
    +8/+3
    +6 +2 +6 Weapon Style feat +1 level of existing divine
    9th
    +9/+4
    +6 +3 +6 Extra Aura, Panacea (5/day) +1 level of existing divine
    10th
    +10/+5
    +7 +3 +7 Smite Evil (at will), Holy Champion

    Alternate Spells Per Day
    Spells
    Paladin 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th
    1 2
    2 3
    3 3 1
    4 4 2
    5 4 3
    6 5 3 1
    7 5 4 2
    8 5 4 3
    9 6 5 3 1
    10 6 5 4 2
    10+ (ECL 16) 6 5 4 3
    10+ (ECL 17) 7 6 5 3 1
    10+ (ECL 18) 7 6 5 4 2
    10+ (ECL 19) 7 6 5 4 3
    10+ (ECL 20) 7 7 6 5 3


    Class Features
    Weapon and Armor Proficiency
    Paladins are proficient with simple weapons and 3 varieties of martial weapons. They are proficient with light and medium armor, and with shields.
    Spoiler
    Show
    Among other projects, I'm working on armor and weapons fixes (the armor is up, see sig). Basically, I want to rearrange how proficiency works and who gets what. You either are proficient with all simple weapons or you aren't. Martial weapon proficiencys come in bludgeoning, piercing, slashing, or ranged, and most melee-heavy classes get 2 or 3. Then exotic weapon proficiency needs to be taken one weapon at a time.
    With the alterations to armor, most classes get none (casters, monks), light (rogues, druids), or medium (fighters, paladins). Anyone who wants more protection can take the related feats. Shields have also been slimmed down somewhat, to 3 types instead of 4, and just 1 feat.


    Spells
    Some paladins are drawn from religious orders, while others where never particularly spiritual until they received the call. Paladins with existing levels in a divine-casting class advance their casting and keep their spell list from the prior class.

    Paladins that cannot already cast divine spells are spontaneous casters who use the progression shown in the "Alternate Casting" table. Casters of this type begin play knowing three 1st level spells from either the 3.5 or Pathfinder list, as appropriate. At each level they learn one new spell of any level they can cast. A paladin can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time, the way a wizard or a cleric must.
    A player who reaches their 10th level of paladin, and then continues to advance other classes also continues to advance their paladin spellcasting.

    Spoiler
    Show
    There would be some changes here, stemming from my overall magic fix. Basically, in my system all casting requires a spellcraft roll, which is modified by Wisdom; bonus spells always come from Intellect. SR all around largely replaces saves.
    The paladin should have sufficient spells at most levels that he doesn't really need to stack Int, and another ability Force of Presence) replaces the need for the pally to stack Wisdom by allowing Charisma to be used in it's place. Hopefully this keeps the MAD down while not cutting off any class features.

    The -4 levels of existing casting was intentionally done so that casters wouldn't be able to reach their normal max-level spells. That's the trade-off for everything else the paladin is supposed to offer.
    The alternate progression is a modified version of my previous efforts to standardize spellcasting somewhat. Barring early entry, it works about about the same in the end to what partial casting classes (like the Ranger) get.

    If you are playing this paladin in a standard game, just assume all his spellcasting is based on Charisma instead of Wisdom like Pathfinder does.

    Detect Evil (Su)
    This ability allows the paladin to use Detect Alignment at will, but the only alignment it will find is evil. Also, in the presence of any strongly evil creature (defined as any Evil-aligned creature with equal or more HD to the paladin) the paladin must make a Will Save (DC 10+1/2 creature's HD) or be sickened for 1 round. If they make the save, they are still alerted to the creatures presence, but are not sickened. If they fail the save by 5 or more, the paladin is nauseated instead.
    Spoiler
    Show
    This is part of my magic fix; rather than have half a dozen different, their is just going one spell with multiple uses. The non-pally SLA may or may not include Chaos and Law; I haven't decided yet.

    For consistency, this has also been changed to a Supernatural instead of Spell-like ability.

    Aura of Good (Su)
    A paladin projects a strong aura that compels anyone affected by it to do the right thing and speak truthfully. Activating or switching an aura is a swift action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity; the range on the aura is 10 ft./paladin level. The aura will be dispelled if the paladin is killed or is unconscious.

    Anyone affected by the Aura of Good must make a Will save or be affected as if by a Zone of Truth spell. Anyone who makes the save still takes a penalty to Bluff equal to 1/2 the paladin's level.
    Evil creatures affected the aura must make a Fortitude save every round or be Sickened for 1 round. If they fail by 5 or more, they are Nauseated instead. If they fail by 10 or more, they are Stunned for 1 round; if the creature is immune to Stunning they are instead Dazed.

    Smite Evil (Sp)
    A paladin may Smite Evil as part of an attack or when casting a damaging spell, or as a special Full-round action. All attempts to Smite Evil must be declared before attack and spellcraft rolls are made, and if the paladin smites a non-evil creature, the attempt is still used up for the day (no effects from smite evil apply to non-evil creatures).

    Regular attack or spell
    The paladin gains a perfection bonus to standard action attacks or spellcraft rolls equal to her charisma bonus, and deals 1d8 extra damage. In addition, if the paladin rolls a natural 20 on her attack or spellcraft roll, the target must make a Fortitude save (DC 10+ the paladin's ECL) or gain 1 negative level.

    A paladin may apply smite to any spell with a duration of instantaneous that deals direct damage to a creature, such as Magic Missile or Cure Light Wounds if used against an undead.

    Special Action
    A paladin may take a special full-round attack action in an attempt to utterly destroy an evil target.
    The paladin makes a single attack roll with a perfection bonus equal to her charisma bonus; on a successful hit the target takes 1d8 additional damage and gains 1 negative level. Additionally, on a natural roll of 18 or greater, the target must make both a Fortitude and a Will save. If the target fails either save they gain an additional negative level; if they fail both saves they are instantly destroyed, being reduced to maximum negative HP and their body is rendered into ash (similar to the Disintegrate spell).

    Weapon Style Feat
    At first, 5th, and 8th level the paladin chooses one feat from the following lists for which she meets the prerequisites. She may also choose Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, or Weapon Mastery (WIP) instead.

    Sword 'n Board

    Two-Handed Fighting

    Reach Combat Style
    Spoiler
    Show
    These are homebrewed feats designed to provide better combat support; every melee classes gets a varying number of them, sort of like Fighter Bonus feats. Combat is a big part of D&D, no denying that, but I don't like requiring certain classes to spend all their normal leveling-up feats just to become competent with basic weapons. These are not the only feat styles, there are also Ranged, TWF, and One-handed feats, but these are the style I felt fit the pally best.

    Force of Presence
    Paladins may use their Charisma bonus in place of their Wisdom modifier for spellcraft rolls.

    Lay on Hands (Su)
    Beginning at 2nd level, a paladin can heal wounds (her own or those of others) by touch. Each day she can use this ability a number of times equal to 1/2 her paladin level plus her Charisma modifier. With one use of this ability, a paladin can heal 1d8 hit points of damage. Using this ability is a standard action, unless the paladin targets herself, in which case it is a swift action. Despite the name of this ability, a paladin only needs one free hand to use this ability.

    Alternatively, a paladin can use this healing power to deal damage to undead creatures, dealing 1d8 points of damage. Using Lay on Hands in this way requires a successful melee touch attack and provokes an attack of opportunity as normal. Undead do not receive a saving throw against this damage.
    Spoiler
    Show
    This was originally copied pretty much copied word-for-word from Pathfinder, which I preferred to the 3.5 one because while it's less flexible, the amount of healing done is more consistent between different characters.
    I tweaked it after some suggestions from Attila.

    Spear or Shield
    Beginning at second level, you may add one additional d8 to the damage dealt by your Smite Evil ability, or to the damage healed/dealt by your Lay on Hands ability. Once this decision is made it cannot be changed.
    At every paladin level after 2nd, the paladins gains 1 additional d8 that she assigns to either LoH or Smite.

    Leadership
    At level 3, paladins get Leadership as a bonus feat; she need not meet the prerequisites.
    Spoiler
    Show
    Leadership is kinda broken; it's on my long list of things to tweak and mess around with. But I think it fits well with the flavor of the class.

    Extra Aura
    At 3rd level and every odd level (5th, 7th, 9th) thereafter, a paladin learns how to project different qualities. These can be used in place of her Aura of Good. All bonuses are perfection bonuses, and equal to 1/2 her paladin level unless otherwise noted.

    Courage- bonus to saving throws
    Resolve- bonus to AC and initiative checks
    Justice- add extra 1d6 damage to melee attacks per 2 paladin levels
    Faith- fast healing equal to 1/2 paladin level, but only when below half max HP
    Righteousness- energy resistance (all forms) equal to paladin level
    Temperance- DR/magic equal to paladin level; this aura also automatically ends any fear based effects, as well as any morale based or Rage-like effects, unless the target makes a Will save every round (DC= 10+1/2 ECL+Cha).

    Panacea (Su)
    At 3rd level, a paladin's divine power allows her to free herself or others from otherwise debilitating conditions as a full-round action. Panacea can target the paladin or an ally within close range (25 feet + 5 feet/2 levels).

    Each use of Panacea can remove or reduce one of the following conditions- Remove: Blinded, Deafened, Dazed, Fatigued, Shaken, Sickened, Staggered
    Reduce: Panicked to Frightened, Frightened to Shaken, Nauseated to Sickened, Exhausted to Fatigued, Paralyzed to Stunned, Stunned to Dazed

    When you use Panacea, you may also make one or more of the following checks as a free action in conjunction with the ability.
    Heal: for every 5 points of the check you may remove or reduce one additional condition.
    Knowledge (Nature): remove all poisons or diseases (even magical ones) for which the Save DC is less than your result on the check
    Knowledge (Arcana): dispel any spell if your check exceeds 10+the spell's level

    Celestial Companion
    At level 5, the paladin receives the assistance of a special creature from the outer planes. Use the rules for selecting a companion found here, with the following exceptions: the animal has the celestial creature template, and is typed as a native outsider. Your effective druid level is equal to 2/3 of your full ECL.
    Spoiler
    Show
    I've got plans to revamp the animal companion as well (not that the Pathfinder version is bad, but I just can't leave anything alone). Also, I know that the standard version of the paladin is with a warhorse or other mount, but if you instead want to run around with a celestial wolf at your side, then I don't object to that. By the same token, if a ranger wanted to make a mounted combat build and ride a moose into battle, I wouldn't object.

    Holy Champion (Su)
    At 10th level, once per day the paladin may become an avatar of her race's primary deity. This transformation takes a Full round, but once activated the paladin is invulnerable to all harm until it is complete. This ability lasts for 10 minutes, and cannot be ended early.

    When in this form, the paladin glows with a supernatural light (as if a Light spell was cast directly on her). The paladin also grows a pair of wings, allowing her to fly with good maneuverability at 50 ft. per round, or her base land speed, whichever is faster.

    The paladin gains a +3 perfection bonus to her AC, on all attack and spellcraft rolls, and on all skill checks. The range and power of her aura, if active, is equal to of a paladin 3 levels higher than her.

    The paladin also gains a unique ability depending on her race or type. The GM may approve other the use of other abilities as well depending on the location or story. For example, the GM may rule that all paladins within the elfish or dwarven homelands gain the special ability for that race's respective deity, or that the paladin gains the ability of whichever deity will benefit most from their actions.

    Race(Alignment) Deity Special
    Human (G) Pelor All Undead and evil-Outsiders within range of the paladin's aura must make a Will save (DC 15+Cha) every round or flee in terror (become Panicked), as if from a dragon's frightful presence ability. An undead's normal immunity to fear effects does not prevent this.
    Elf (G) Corellon Larethian Choose one spell of level 6 or lower from the Wiz/Sor spell list; you may use this spell as an SLA every 1d6 rounds. Alternatively, you may choose 2 spells of level 4 or lower, and use both with separate 1d4 round cooldowns. Alternatively, you may choose to use any 3 level 1 spells and they can be used every round. You can choose to apply metamagic feats to these spells, however you must know the relevant metamagic feat.
    Dwarf & Races of Stone Moradin You and all allies within range of your aura become immune to any effect that allows a Fortitude or Will save. You and your allies gain a Perfection bonus equal to your Charisma modifier on all Reflex saves.
    Gnome Garl Glittergold Your body becomes metallic, making you 10 times heavier and immune to falling damage, as well as immune to the effects of positive and negative energy. In addition you take half damage from all other sources, and can lift or carry a load 10 times greater than you normally could. However you cannot fly under your own power or with the use of a mount.
    Orc & M. Humanoid Gruumsh You may use Rage as a barbarian of your ECL.
    Halfling Yondalla You gain the Powerful Build feat and your weapons, armor, and other equipment become invulnerable to harm. In addition you can also enlarge any weapon you touch by one size category as a free action. The weapons revert to their normal size as soon as they leave your grasp (projectiles retain their enhanced size long enough to deal damage).
    Goblinoid Maglubiyet You grow one size category larger; your weapons and equipment re-size themselves to match, provided they remain under your control. You can use Aid Other as a free action once per round.
    Elf (E) Lolth Once per minute you can summon 3d4 Spider Swarms or Medium Monstrous Spiders, 1d6 Huge Monstrous Spiders, or 1 Colossal Monstrous Spider (as if by a Summon Monster SLA).
    Incarnum & RoDestiny Boccob You project an Anti-Magic Field to a distance of 25 ft.+5 ft./level. Your own abilities are not affected by this AMF.
    Kobold & RotDragon Tiamat You gain a breath weapon with the energy type of your choice (fire, cold, acid, or electric) that deals 1d6 damage per 2HD and is usable every 1d6 rounds. The range of the weapon is either a 30 ft. cone or a 60 ft. line. You may choose different parameters each time you use your Holy Champion ability.
    Animal & Plant Ehlonna You are affected as if by the Speak with Animals and Speak with Plants spells; you may also use Command Plants and Dominate Animal as Spell-like Abilities at will. Once per minute you may cast Summon Nature's Ally V (or a lower level version).
    Magical Beast & RotWild Obad-Hai You transform into a magical beast or animal of your choice that is within one size category of your normal form (and does not exceed your HD). All your equipment alters to accommodate your new form, and your stats remain the same. However, you gain the creatures movement types (if they exceed your own), Special Attacks, Special Qualities, Extraordinary, Spell-Like, and Supernatureal abilities.
    Fey Titania Once per round as a swift action you may shift between the material, the ethereal, and the astral planes. Once per minute you may use Plane Shift as a SLA.
    Undead Nerull Any lethal damage you receive is instead converted into non-lethal damage. In addition you gain Fast Healing 5.
    any LG Heironeous One ally within range of your aura becomes immune to flanking and critical hits, gains fast healing equal to your paladin level, and has their speed increased by 10 ft. You may alter which ally benefits from these effects as a free action once per round.
    any LE Hextor You may use Dominate Monster as an SLA that does not allow any saves. You can only affect one creature at a time, but even creatures that would normally be immune to Mind-Affecting spells can be targeted by this ability.
    any Good St. Cuthbert You replenish one consumed spell slot of every level available to you, and you may use any spell on the paladin spell-list, instead of just those you have learned (you may cast Paladin spells even if you have chosen to advance spellcasting from another class instead).
    any CG Olidammara You can activate on yourself as a free action both a Greater Invisibility and a Zone of Silence effect as a Supernatural ability at will (and deactivate with a free action). Additionally, you can use Knock and Secret Chest as SLAs at will.
    any Chaotic Kord Your run speed increases by 30 ft., your fly speed by 10 ft., you gain a swim speed of 40 ft., a burrow speed of 20 ft., and a climb speed of 30 ft. You gain a perfection bonus equal to 1/2 your ECL on Str, Dex, and Con based skill checks, as well as grapple checks.
    any Evil Erythnul Any positive energy effects (including healing and damage) within range of your aura are halved (in damage dealt or healed, duration, etc). In addition, anyone who dies within range of your aura has their soul sucked into an object within reach of your choosing, as if via the Soul Bind spell.
    Spoiler
    Show
    I tried to cover as many creature types as I could; feel free to provide suggestions for other dieties and/or abilities or homebrew more of your own.

    Paladin's Code
    Most paladins swear certain oaths when the pledge their loyalty and devotion to a cause or a patron. They vary, though most contain common elements, such as respecting the rule of law, not being deceptive, assist the weak, bring evil to justice, etc. Paladins who violate their oath may receive a vision from their deity as a warning; paladins who continually flaunt it may find themselves unable to use certain abilities such as Smite, spellcasting, or their celestial companion.

    Paladins who grossly violate their oath or who commit evil acts lose all their class features except for weapon and armor proficiencies and Weapon Style feats.
    Discuss the specifics, including penalties, with your GM.

    Multiclassing
    Paladin's face a special restriction on multiclassing- once they have taken a level of paladin, they cannot advance in any classes that they did not have at least one level of before becoming a paladin.
    Once a paladin reaches 10th level (of paladin, not total), they can again multiclass freely.


    Paladin Spell-list Additions
    1st- Augury, Consecrate, Light
    2nd- Aid, Bear's Endurance, Calm Emotions, Enthrall, Gentle Repose
    3rd- Disrupting Weapon, Remove Disease, Searing Light, Spiritual Weapon
    4th- Divine Power, Forbiddance, Hallow, Holy Smite (Good only), Unholy Blight (Evil only)
    5th- Atonement, Blasphemy (Evil only), Contingency, Cure Critical Wounds, Dictum, Flame Strike, Holy Word (Good only), Mind Blank, Raise Dead, Telepathic Bond, True Seeing


    Conclusion
    Overall, the paladin includes fewer brand-new features than other classes I've worked, but that's because it had a fair amount to start with, particularly from PF. Those abilities where just sub-par, and tended to be overly limited in their use. I've tried to expand on that, as well as making the class less MAD.
    In addition, by making it a prestige class and trying to make it a little easier to multiclass, it will hopefully be easier for players to add their own flavor and choice of abilities.
    Last edited by Deepbluediver; 2017-02-12 at 04:45 PM. Reason: removed Channel Energy
    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    It's not called common because the sense is common, it's called common because it's about common things.
    Homebrew Extended Signature!

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Deepbluediver's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    The US of A

    Default Re: Paladin PrC (better than the SRD's!) [3.X, PEACH]

    Paladin Variants
    Paladins are heavily focused on alignment and the inherent goals, ambitions, and desires, as well as fears and opposing forces. Paladins tend to derive at least some of their personality from the common aspects of their associated alignment.
    With your GM's permission, a player may devote themselves to a different cause and create a paladin with an alignment other than Lawful-Good. For any aspect of the paladin's class features, including spells, alter the features as appropriate (Lawful to Chaotic, Good to Evil, etc). Evil paladin variants can chose at first level to channel negative energy with their Lay on Hands ability instead of positive energy. Once this choice is made it cannot be changed back.


    Evil Paladins also have a different list of auras to choose from, with slightly different effects.
    • Aura of Evil- you "leak" a steady flow of negative energy, dealing 1 negative-energy damage (or healing if appropriate) to all creatures in range of your aura. However damage from this source cannot reduce creatures to below 0 HP, and it does not heal creatures if they are above half their max HP. The amount of negative energy increases by 1 per 2 paladin levels.
    • Fear- Every round enemies within range of your aura must make a Will save (10+1/2 ECL+Cha) or become shaken. If they fail by 5 or more they become frightened instead. If they fail by 10 or more they become panicked. Each time a creature succeeds on the save, they gain a temporary +5 bonus (lasts for 1 hour) on subsequent will saves against the aura of fear.
    • Hatred- Enemies take a penalty to saving throws equal to 1/2 your paladin level.
    • Wrath- Enemies take an extra 1d6 damage per 2 paladin levels from melee attacks.
    • Betrayal- Every round enemies within range of your aura must make a Will save (10+1/2 ECL+Cha) or become confused
    • Despair- Every round enemies within range of your aura must make a Fortitude save (10+1/2 ECL+Cha) or become Slowed
    • Oppression- Enemies take a penalty equal to one-half your paladin level to Will, Int, Cha based skill-checks & to Spellcraft rolls

    Spoiler
    Show
    These variants do not include "fallen paladins", aka Blackguards. Personally, I've never liked the fluff for them; turning away from a cause and/or changing alignment is different from having pledged yourself to a different purpose from the start. And, I don't like the feel of just swapping one set of abilities for another; it makes whole thing feel trite, IMO. But feel free to house-rule it as necessary in your games.


    Holy Liberator (Chaotic Good)
    Holy Liberators are paladins who specifically pledge themselves to oppose tyranny, enslavement, and those who abuse their power, position, or authority. More than a few have suffered such injustice themselves, and have sworn to never rest so long as others require aid. Unlike regular paladins, Holy Liberators are rarely part of knightly orders, military forces, or any kind of organization. While most are not outright loners, they tend to be opinionated and self-sure. Whereas a regular paladin might see a system in need of fixing, a Holy Liberator will frequently see the system itself as a problem, and act accordingly.

    Class Features
    At 5th level, rather than gaining a celestial companion, Holy Liberators gain a permanent Freedom of Movement effect as a supernatural ability. In addition, they may also use Dimension Door as a SLA 1/day per 3 HD (caster level equal to ECL).
    Spoiler
    Show
    The Holy Liberator was originally a chaotic-good paladin-like PrC, from Complete Divine. Since Unearthed Arcana, with it's all-alignment paladins, had been published several months earlier I'm not really sure what the point was. But since it served as inspiration for making the paladin a PrC in the first place I'm repurposing it here anyway.


    Darkhand (Lawful Evil)
    Darkhands are a rare and strange breed. Whereas paladins are friendly, welcoming, and supportive, Darkhands are nearly universally described as taciturn, gloomy, and abrasive.
    They embody an odd mix of characteristics; one of the most common reasons individuals turn to evil is for the acquisition of power. Yet Darkhands often pledge themselves to causes or masters that would never thank them for their service, and follow their oath or creed even in the face of common sense or when it means their own destruction.

    Class Features
    At 2nd level, Darkhands replace the Lay on Hands feature with the ability to impose a baleful geas on a target. This is a SLA exactly like the Geas/Quest spell. The Darkhand can normally affect one individual at a time; any d8 that you would normally contribute to improving LoH from the Spear or Shield feature instead allows you to affect one additional individual.

    At 3rd level, Darkhands replace the Leadership bonus feat with the ability to use Children of the Night once per day.
    Quote Originally Posted by Deepbluediver
    Children of the Night*
    Once per day can call forth 2d4 rat swarms, 2d3 bat or snake (tiny viper) swarms, or a pack of 3d4 wolves as a standard action. You can summon 1 additional swarm or wolf per 3 HD. These creatures arrive in 2d6 rounds and serve the Darkhand for up to 1 hour.
    Spoiler
    Show
    *This is a modified version of the listed ability from my write up for Vampires-as-a-class instead of a template, so as to better accommodate and/or replace LA.


    name pending* (Chaotic Evil)
    *any suggestions are welcome, I haven't liked any of the stuff I've come up with on my own
    Chaotic-evil paladins are hedonistic, greedy, and vile in the extreme. They care for nothing but their own power and pleasure, and civilized creatures often wonder what twisted deity would lend its beneficence to such a monstrous being.
    Their lust, ambition, and hunger do not seen to deter them from being capable of acts of wicked cunning and deception; many who opposed them have underestimated these fiends as being lazy or stupid, much to their sorrow.

    Class Features
    At 2nd level, chaotic-evil paladins replace Lay on Hands with the ability Leeching Touch.
    Leeching Touch: When the paladin deals damage to a creature with an unarmed strike, grapple, or touch-spell, they may heal themselves for an amount equal to the damage deal, up to a maximum of 10 HP. They may use this ability a number of times per day equal to their paladin level + charisma modifier. Dice that would normally be used to improve Lay on Hand may be used to increase the maximum value healed by 5 points per dice.
    This ability does not work against constructs or elementals, but it functions perfectly well against undead.

    At 5th level, a chaotic-evil paladin replaces the Celestial Companion feature with the loyal service of either a Succubus or a pack of Imps. The Succubus' HD is equal to 2/3 the paladins, while the pack includes 1 Imp/3HD.
    If any of the imps or the Succubus are slain, they are replaced within 48 hours. The paladin may request from his deity a change in the type of servants, provided he slaughters the previous one(s) first.



    Summary
    The changes are as much about fluff and flavor as they are about mechanics; I still want these variants to be recognizable as paladins.
    Last edited by Deepbluediver; 2015-06-23 at 11:08 AM. Reason: updating mechanics
    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    It's not called common because the sense is common, it's called common because it's about common things.
    Homebrew Extended Signature!

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    AttilaTheGeek's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Boston (UTC-5)
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Paladin Fix: PrC [3.X, PEACH]

    Hm, interesting. Since you're aiming for balance, most of my comments are about scaling. Also, I can't stand when something is "finished" but still has grammar errors that no one's bothered to point out.

    I think Smite Evil could use a strong buff - 1d6 per two levels averages less than two points of damage per Paladin level. A Fighter 5/Paladin 1 with 22 STR, for example, would be adding 1d6 damage to each of his 2d6+14 power attacks* with his greatsword. That's not even a 15% damage increase. Have you considered 1d6 per character level? That lets a smite be powerful at Paladin 1 while still remaining solid at Paladin 10.

    Panacea is really cool. I like it a lot. However, it's kind of confusingly worded. Do you have to cast a Cure spell to use it? Also, I wonder if those DCs are too low for high-op and/or high-level play.

    Lay on Hands suffers the same scaling issue as Smite: At Paladin 1, its effect is almost negligible. You could scale off total character level, but I have another idea. "At first level, a paladin gains five "positive energy dice", which are d6s. She can split the positive energy between Smite Evil damage or Lay on Hands healing. Once distributed, the choice is permanent. Each level, a paladin gains two more positive energy dice to distribute." That way you can increase both by 1d6 per level, or you could put them all into Smite Evil for a very aggressive character with a powerful offense, balanced by a lack of healing. Or, you could pump out crazy healing at the cost of your offensive power. Just a thought. Or, you could add the paladin's Charisma score to it to give it a nice boost at the beginning without scaling too fast with level.

    Is channeling energy into a single creature a touch attack? Does it offer a save?

    Celestial Companion is bonkers. I'd say "2/3 of your total level" or "one and a half times your Paladin level", otherwise you run into the whole problem where you get a fighter as a class feature. Note that 1.5*Paladin level will always be less than ECL, unless you're a [something] 5/ Paladin 10, when it will be equal.

    You're missing a comma in this sentence of Holy Champion:
    or her base land speed, whichever is faster.
    I might take another look at the Holy Champion bonuses. They seem imbalanced - Pelor attacks undead (and doesn't include a DC) but does nothing otherwise, Lolth lets you summon a CR 1 monster, and Moradin makes you immune to damage.

    You say "Paladin spell list additions"; I assume you mean to the Pathfinder list? If so, they'll want a more substantial 5th-level list than that.

    Overall, looks good! I tried to point out as many issues as I could, but don't let that fool you - I really like it.

    *2d6 base + 1.5*6 STR + 3*2 Power Attack
    Homebrew: Temporalist Quotebox Avatar by Kris on a Stick
    Blue is for sarcasm Call me Attila

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Deepbluediver's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    The US of A

    Default Re: Paladin Fix: PrC [3.X, PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by AttilaTheGeek View Post
    Hm, interesting. Since you're aiming for balance, most of my comments are about scaling. Also, I can't stand when something is "finished" but still has grammar errors that no one's bothered to point out.
    I'm happy to take any and all criticism; and I too hate grammar errors. I frequently go back make little edits to the stuff I post, I just haven't had the chance to re-review this since posting (was kind of busy last night).

    Panacea is really cool. I like it a lot. However, it's kind of confusingly worded. Do you have to cast a Cure spell to use it? Also, I wonder if those DCs are too low for high-op and/or high-level play.
    Sorry, that was a goof on my part; the ability was originally just called "Cure", until I decided that it needed a name with more flavor; I thought I replaced all instances of the original working, but I guess not. Like I said; haven't had the chance to reread it yet.
    The intention (and the reason for it's low per-day usage) is that one use will wipe out any and all negative status effects. I'll try to clean up the language, but was that obvious? Or does it come across sounding like it can only do one at a time?

    Also, both of the Knowledge checks are cross-class skills for paladins; even if using pathfinders skill system I didn't see a ton of value in spending skill points there. I'll give it some thought though; it would be easy enough to make them something like 15+ spell level or 10+twice spell level instead.

    Lay on Hands suffers the same scaling issue as Smite: At Paladin 1, its effect is almost negligible. You could scale off total character level, but I have another idea. "At first level, a paladin gains five "positive energy dice", which are d6s. She can split the positive energy between Smite Evil damage or Lay on Hands healing. Once distributed, the choice is permanent. Each level, a paladin gains two more positive energy dice to distribute." That way you can increase both by 1d6 per level, or you could put them all into Smite Evil for a very aggressive character with a powerful offense, balanced by a lack of healing. Or, you could pump out crazy healing at the cost of your offensive power. Just a thought. Or, you could add the paladin's Charisma score to it to give it a nice boost at the beginning without scaling too fast with level.
    About the scaling; in the design phase, I went back and forth between a full 20 level class, a 10 level PrC, and a 15 level PrC. Some of the numbers are left over from that, and where not appropriately upgraded, especially to account for the class actually starting around 5-6th level. I remember to upgrade the Channel Energy feature, forgot about these. That's not an excuse, I just wanted to thank you for pointing it out.

    Now, I REALLY do like the idea of splitting dice between LoH and Smite. I might tweak the numbers a little bit (I like using d8's), and 5+2/level is 23 dice; that seems like it might get a little excessive if some one min-maxes. But overall, this is a definite thing to use.

    Edit:
    Spoiler
    Show
    I think Smite Evil could use a strong buff - 1d6 per two levels averages less than two points of damage per Paladin level. A Fighter 5/Paladin 1 with 22 STR, for example, would be adding 1d6 damage to each of his 2d6+14 power attacks* with his greatsword. That's not even a 15% damage increase. Have you considered 1d6 per character level? That lets a smite be powerful at Paladin 1 while still remaining solid at Paladin 10.
    Smite and LoH now start at 1d8 with the option to add 9d8 total over the subsequent levels. So with an even split that's an average of between ~22-45 (if you split it or min-max, respectively) by the time you run out of paladin levels.

    LoH might still seem like it starts a little low, but this is also the level when you get to channel energy, so I don't think the paladin will lack for positive-energy output if need be. I will need to try some play-testing, and see if upping it to a starting value of 2d8 or even 3d8 works better. Sometimes the line between good and OP can be very easy to cross.


    Is channeling energy into a single creature a touch attack? Does it offer a save?
    It probably should offer a save of some kind; normally positive and negative energy offer Fort or Will saves, I think, but if it does require a ranged touch attack, then Reflex would probably be better. Or maybe both? I'm not certain here, will need to think on it.

    Celestial Companion is bonkers. I'd say "2/3 of your total level" or "one and a half times your Paladin level", otherwise you run into the whole problem where you get a fighter as a class feature. Note that 1.5*Paladin level will always be less than ECL, unless you're a [something] 5/ Paladin 10, when it will be equal.
    I'd rather fix the fighter than nerf other class features.
    That being said, I've had some ideas for tweaking the Animal Companion rules, and 2/3 normal HD was about the level I figured could work. I'll probably go that, so it can keep getting stronger even after you max out the pally.

    I might take another look at the Holy Champion bonuses. They seem imbalanced - Pelor attacks undead (and doesn't include a DC) but does nothing otherwise, Lolth lets you summon a CR 1 monster, and Moradin makes you immune to damage.
    Yeah, they where kind of a last minute addition, then something else ecame up and I had to rush to finish. I'll revise them.

    You say "Paladin spell list additions"; I assume you mean to the Pathfinder list? If so, they'll want a more substantial 5th-level list than that.
    The choice of what base-list depends on the setting, but yes, the spell list needs more work. I was mostly going through the cleric list and picking things that didn't seem totally arbitrary, and kind of fit the flavor. I'll dig out a few splatbooks and see what else I can find.

    Overall, looks good! I tried to point out as many issues as I could, but don't let that fool you - I really like it.
    Thanks! I really appreciate it. Hopefully I'll get the chance to type up and post the variant options this afternoon; they're not all that different, but I tweaked a few things.
    Last edited by Deepbluediver; 2014-11-12 at 03:20 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    It's not called common because the sense is common, it's called common because it's about common things.
    Homebrew Extended Signature!

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    AttilaTheGeek's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Boston (UTC-5)
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Paladin Fix: PrC [3.X, PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Deepbluediver View Post
    The intention (and the reason for its [Panacea's] low per-day usage) is that one use will wipe out any and all negative status effects. I'll try to clean up the language, but was that obvious? Or does it come across sounding like it can only do one at a time?
    Use of the wording "certain afflictions" in the first sentence makes it seem like a single condition, even though a complete reading reveals otherwise. For maximum clarity, I'd reword and rework it to "At 3rd level, a paladin's divine power allows him to free himself or others from otherwise debilitating conditions. Panacea can target the paladin or an ally within close range (25 feet + 5 feet/2 levels). At third level, Panacea removes the Dazed, Fatigued, Shaken, and Sickened conditions. At sixth level, it also removes the Exhausted, Frightened, Nauseated, and Staggered conditions. At ninth level, it also removes the Blinded, Deafened, Paralyzed, and Stunned conditions." That way, Heal isn't a skill tax. Even with 4 skill points per level, ranks are always tight.

    Now, I REALLY do like the idea of splitting dice between LoH and Smite. I might tweak the numbers a little bit (I like using d8's), and 5+2/level is 23 dice; that seems like it might get a little excessive if some one min-maxes. But overall, this is a definite thing to use.
    Oh! I just had another idea to take that even further.
    Spoiler
    Show
    Dice pool! Each day, a Paladin gets a pool of dX [whatever is balanced] Positive Energy Dice approximately equal to their Charisma modifier times their paladin level. Throughout the day, they can take any number of dice from their pool and spend them on any of the following:
    • To add those dice as damage on a Smite attack
    • To heal those dice with Lay on Hands
    • To Channel Energy, healing all allies and damaging all undead for half the value of those dice
    • To restore a spell slot of a level equal to half the number of dice

    Instead of a dice pool, you could also do straight numbers (i.e, instead of 10d6, you'd have just 35). In my opinion, that would be more elegant, but it could slow down table play with minor decisions like "Do I want to smite him for 30 or 31?".

    What do you like about d8s over d6s? I prefer the smaller die size because it has less variation with how well you roll. Also, plenty of players own several d6s, but people rarely own more than one or two d8s.

    [/quote]It [single-creatureChannel Energy] probably should offer a save of some kind; normally positive and negative energy offer Fort or Will saves, I think, but if it does require a ranged touch attack, then Reflex would probably be better. Or maybe both? I'm not certain here, will need to think on it.[/quote]

    I'd give it a Will save. Because of BAB, ranged touch attacks almost always hit at high levels, but not everyone reliably makes every save.

    I'd rather fix the fighter than nerf other class features.
    That being said, I've had some ideas for tweaking the Animal Companion rules, and 2/3 normal HD was about the level I figured could work. I'll probably go that, so it can keep getting stronger even after you max out the pally.
    I agree, but the point remains that it's still a powerful and capable ally.

    Yeah, they where kind of a last minute addition, then something else ecame up and I had to rush to finish. I'll revise them.
    I think it's a great idea for a capstone, but they were just rushed. What about paladins who are just champions of a cause instead of a particular god? My suggestion would be a blanket "work it out with your DM", but you could also include some sample causes and bonuses.

    The choice of what base-list depends on the setting, but yes, the spell list needs more work. I was mostly going through the cleric list and picking things that didn't seem totally arbitrary, and kind of fit the flavor. I'll dig out a few splatbooks and see what else I can find.
    What about a Fighter 5/Paladin X? He doesn't have a spell list.
    Homebrew: Temporalist Quotebox Avatar by Kris on a Stick
    Blue is for sarcasm Call me Attila

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    AttilaTheGeek's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Boston (UTC-5)
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Paladin Fix: PrC [3.X, PEACH]

    Are you still working on this?
    Homebrew: Temporalist Quotebox Avatar by Kris on a Stick
    Blue is for sarcasm Call me Attila

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Deepbluediver's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    The US of A

    Default Re: Paladin Fix: PrC [3.X, PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by AttilaTheGeek View Post
    Are you still working on this?
    Yes!

    Variants are now up, along with some updates to the base class.

    Edit: I realized after posting that some of the alternate class features don't account for the change in rules to the dice for LoH and Smite; I'll fix it after dinner.

    Edit2: The above issue was corrected, but now I'm debating if I should replace the Leadership feat for either of the chaotic variants, and what I might replace it with.
    If it's just a matter of fluff, its not really an issue; I could see a Holy Liberator thinking "everyone else does this wrong, I'll show them how to do it right", and a chaotic-evil paladin basically controlling how followers with threats and bribery.
    Mostly I think it will come down to if I can find something suitable as a replacement.

    Use of the wording "certain afflictions" in the first sentence makes it seem like a single condition, even though a complete reading reveals otherwise. For maximum clarity, I'd reword and rework it to "At 3rd level, a paladin's divine power allows him to free himself or others from otherwise debilitating conditions. Panacea can target the paladin or an ally within close range (25 feet + 5 feet/2 levels). At third level, Panacea removes the Dazed, Fatigued, Shaken, and Sickened conditions. At sixth level, it also removes the Exhausted, Frightened, Nauseated, and Staggered conditions. At ninth level, it also removes the Blinded, Deafened, Paralyzed, and Stunned conditions."

    That way, Heal isn't a skill tax. Even with 4 skill points per level, ranks are always tight.
    I updated some of the language. I'm still on the fence about the skill checks though. Overall, I like the idea that the you have the ability to remove lots of stuff even at lower levels (which are actually mid levels, since it's a PrC). For a paladin who wants to be able to use it more reliably, I see the skill-ranks as an option, not as a tax.

    I will keep this on the burner for further consideration.

    Oh! I just had another idea to take that even further.
    Spoiler
    Show
    Dice pool! Each day, a Paladin gets a pool of dX [whatever is balanced] Positive Energy Dice approximately equal to their Charisma modifier times their paladin level. Throughout the day, they can take any number of dice from their pool and spend them on any of the following:
    • To add those dice as damage on a Smite attack
    • To heal those dice with Lay on Hands
    • To Channel Energy, healing all allies and damaging all undead for half the value of those dice
    • To restore a spell slot of a level equal to half the number of dice

    Instead of a dice pool, you could also do straight numbers (i.e, instead of 10d6, you'd have just 35). In my opinion, that would be more elegant, but it could slow down table play with minor decisions like "Do I want to smite him for 30 or 31?".
    Hmm...that's interesting, I admit, but I kind of like the idea of not having to shuffle around with or track a varying pool of dice every day; the class already has spells to worry about.

    If you decide to houserule it that way, I think flat numbers per paladin level work better than the multiplier; which can get kind of crazy if some one makes a push to optimize Charisma. Though I guess dumping thing like Strength or Con to go this route is would be a good way to represent a healer-paladin (I'm getting WoW flashbacks).
    If you want to try it out that way, you could always DM-fiat a patch via something like "Your deity disapproves of your actions; repent or lose access to your Dice Pool" if it gets too nuts. If you decide to try it, let me know how it goes.

    What do you like about d8s over d6s? I prefer the smaller die size because it has less variation with how well you roll. Also, plenty of players own several d6s, but people rarely own more than one or two d8s.
    I like the idea that the feature feels different from Sneak Attack and other rogue-ish things. I'm working on a fighter fix that also uses d8s for some aspects.
    Plus, with fewer dice overall it helps keep the average damage comparable to a larger number of d6s. And finally, statistically the larger number of dice you use the more the rolls average out. I don't consider this a good thing; I LIKE randomness- that's why I'm using dice in the first place.

    And I'm not gonna worry about players finding dice; IMO its irrelevant with regards to class flavor and balance, barring really weird numbers like requiring a d23 or something. At worst, dice rolling programs are easy to find, and in any given group the odds of no one having a smart phone, tablet, or laptop are slim.
    Also, in my personal experience, groups come in two varieties: they are all sharing exactly 1 complete set of gaming dice, in which case they would need to scramble to assemble 10-15 d6 anyhow, or the group all owns a set of gaming dice and at least one person keeps their collection in a box/bucket/sack, from which they can conjure pretty much any number of anything.

    I'd give it a Will save. Because of BAB, ranged touch attacks almost always hit at high levels, but not everyone reliably makes every save.
    When dealing with positive and negative energy, there are already lots of Will Saves. I like the idea that they pally has at least one reflex-based option. Plus, as I mentioned, I think that fits better with things that require an attack roll.

    Still, I admit there is the argument that by allowing a class to target any kind of save, it makes them TO powerful. I'm aiming for tier 3 after all, not tier 2 or higher.

    hmm....this requires additional consideration

    I agree, but the point remains that it's still a powerful and capable ally.
    It's been reduced to 2/3 level, for now. When/if I get around to redoing the entire feature, that's probably the HD/level I'd set it at anyway.

    I think it's a great idea for a capstone, but they were just rushed. What about paladins who are just champions of a cause instead of a particular god? My suggestion would be a blanket "work it out with your DM", but you could also include some sample causes and bonuses.
    I've tried to add more types so that any base creature who the DM approves as at least one linked deity, as well as update/balance the abilities. In general, the class already gives plenty of opportunities for stat-boosts, so I was aiming for things that are interesting instead of powerful.
    I'm still working on what exactly to do for a few of them; I welcome suggestions, other homebrew, and/or further critiques.

    What about a Fighter 5/Paladin X? He doesn't have a spell list.
    He would get the normal paladin spell list.
    Was I not clear about that?

    The idea was that if you wanted to enter as a cleric (or other divine class) and keep your existing spells, then you could. But the option also exists for melee classes or non-divine classes to take this PrC, in which case they get a different list and their own progression. I'm trying to keep the options open here, even if it requires reworking the class to allow something entirely new.

    Also, I've updated the Pally-list additions; although the list doesn't need to be huge. Unlike a RAW paladin, my version actually has to pick and choose what spells she knows (there are some tradeoffs to buffing the class) so any one paladin will only ever be able to learn a portion of the entire list.
    Last edited by Deepbluediver; 2013-07-22 at 08:17 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    It's not called common because the sense is common, it's called common because it's about common things.
    Homebrew Extended Signature!

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    AttilaTheGeek's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Boston (UTC-5)
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Paladin Fix: PrC [3.X, PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Deepbluediver View Post
    Yes!


    Hmm...that [daily dice pool] is interesting, I admit, but I kind of like the idea of not having to shuffle around with or track a varying pool of dice every day; the class already has spells to worry about.
    Makes sense, I just decided to propose it in case you did take a liking to it.

    If you decide to houserule it that way, I think flat numbers per paladin level work better than the multiplier; which can get kind of crazy if some one makes a push to optimize Charisma. Though I guess dumping thing like Strength or Con to go this route is would be a good way to represent a healer-paladin (I'm getting WoW flashbacks).
    I don't play WoW much anymore, but I did for a long time, and I still find a lot of my design preferences to be strongly influenced by it. I like how it makes really interesting gameplay with only 3-6 buttons per spec. It's all in design of interesting abilities that synergize with each other and scale well.

    More relevant to the paladin, I think that taking mechanics from Prot and Holy could work well. For example, redirecting damage from allies to oneself is not only a key healer cooldown (Vow of Sacrifice, if I recall correctly) but also the cornerstone of one of Pathfinder's best healing builds, the Oradin.

    Also, on the topic of WoW, I think of Panacea as the PvP trinket

    If you want to try it out that way, you could also DM-fiat a patch via something like "Your deity disapproves of your actions; repent or lose access to your Dice Pool". If you decide to try it, let me know how it goes.
    I'm already playing a standard paladin in not one but two games, so it's not likely.


    I like the idea that the feature feels different from Sneak Attack and other rogue-ish things. I'm working on a fighter fix that also uses d8s for some aspects.
    Plus, with fewer dice overall it helps keep the average damage comparable to a larger number of d6s. And finally, statistically the larger number of dice you use the more the rolls average out. I don't consider this a good thing; I LIKE randomness- that's why I'm using dice in the first place.
    Fair. That makes a lot of sense.

    When dealing with positive and negative energy, there are already lots of Will Saves. I like the idea that they pally has at least one reflex-based option. Plus, as I mentioned, I think that fits better with things that require an attack roll.

    Still, I admit there is the argument that by allowing a class to target any kind of save, it makes them TO powerful. I'm aiming for tier 3 after all, not tier 2 or higher.

    hmm....this requires additional consideration
    A paradigm in which every class has ways to target every save in addition to AC is not necessarily one in which every character is always powerful. Look at 4E; every class has attacks against all four defenses, but you can't by any means say that all 4E characters are tier 1s. I like that there is a reflex save attack, I just thought it was kind of awkward because it seemed fluffed like a touch attack.


    It's been reduced to 2/3 level, for now. When/if I get around to redoing the entire feature, that's probably the HD/level I'd set it at anyway.
    Cool. Make sure they don't get to take too many actions with the PC, the Cohort, and the Companion, but other than that this sounds good. I might just say "you get leadership without the cohort", but I'm not sure what you think of that.

    I've tried to add more types so that any base creature who the DM approves as at least one linked deity, as well as update/balance the abilities. In general, the class already gives plenty of opportunities for stat-boosts, so I was aiming for things that are interesting instead of powerful.
    I'm still working on what exactly to do for a few of them; I welcome suggestions, other homebrew, and/or further critiques.
    Woah, that's a lot of abilities. I didn't even think to do it by creature type - I would have said "Here are the main pantheon, and then here are 3-4 sample bonuses for each alignment so your DM can make one specifically for your god". But doing it by creature type does work well for non-core race Paladins, which are more common in 3.X than in Pathfinder.


    He would get the normal paladin spell list.
    Was I not clear about that?
    I should have assumed that, but I was thrown off by the fact that it doesn't specifically say "A paladin who was previously unable to cast divine spells casts off the [3.5 OR Pathfinder] spell list, which can be found at (SRD link)". Personally, I really like Pathfinder's list (I've never played a Paladin in 3.5) because it's designed to fit around full attacking. There are lots of swift-action spells, ways to absorb or deflect damage, ways to move more quickly, and the like. It's very tailored to front-line combat.

    The idea was that if you wanted to enter as a cleric (or other divine class) and keep your existing spells, then you could. But the option also exists for melee classes or non-divine classes to take this PrC, in which case they get a different list and their own progression. I'm trying to keep the options open here, even if it requires reworking the class to allow something entirely new.
    Right. That's a good thing.

    Also, I've updated the Pally-list additions; although the list doesn't need to be huge. Unlike a RAW paladin, my version actually has to pick and choose what spells she knows (there are some tradeoffs to buffing the class) so any one paladin will only ever be able to learn a portion of the entire list.
    Heh, "pally"? You really are a WoW player

    Oh, so they are spontaneous casters? In general, I prefer spontaneous casting to prepared, so I think that's super cool. But where is a table of spells known by level?
    Homebrew: Temporalist Quotebox Avatar by Kris on a Stick
    Blue is for sarcasm Call me Attila

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Deepbluediver's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    The US of A

    Default Re: Paladin Fix: PrC [3.X, PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by AttilaTheGeek View Post
    I don't play WoW much anymore, but I did for a long time, and I still find a lot of my design preferences to be strongly influenced by it. I like how it makes really interesting gameplay with only 3-6 buttons per spec. It's all in design of interesting abilities that synergize with each other and scale well.

    More relevant to the paladin, I think that taking mechanics from Prot and Holy could work well. For example, redirecting damage from allies to oneself is not only a key healer cooldown (Vow of Sacrifice, if I recall correctly) but also the cornerstone of one of Pathfinder's best healing builds, the Oradin.
    Computer-based RPGs can be good sources of inspiration, but its important to remember that overall they tend to have much less freedom and fewer options on the upper end of things. For example, all the WoW "Wizards" are pretty much just evocation with a little CC, and building a Sorcadin is an impossibility.

    When I took ideas from WoW, rather than giving them to any one class, tried to incorporate them into weapon-style feats, so they would be available to any melee class.
    Particularly Sword-n-Board, which has a "taunt" and other protection-sharing abilities.

    Also, on the topic of WoW, I think of Panacea as the PvP trinket
    Yeah, I'm still brainstorming over a way to incorporate skills somehow, without it feeling like a punishment. Maybe I'll alter it so that it always removes a limited number of effects, but a good skill check can remove more.

    Edit: I've updated it to not actually REQUIRE ranks in anything, and simply let the skill points provide better benefits if spent that way.

    Cool. Make sure they don't get to take too many actions with the PC, the Cohort, and the Companion, but other than that this sounds good. I might just say "you get leadership without the cohort", but I'm not sure what you think of that.
    I gotta figure out exactly what to do with Leadership at some point; I'm thinking of just having it provide the lowbie minions, and instead making something like cohorts a different feat or feats.
    Combat Medic- pocket Healer 2/3 your level
    Herald- Bard 2/3 your level
    Bodyguard- Fighter 2/3 your level
    etc; it's a WIP

    Also, yes I definitely may need to homebrew some rules for controlling more than one character in combat. I would probably work it into the Animal Companion feature that they defaulted to guarding you defensively, and getting them to do anything else required a command on the players part, taking up some action.

    I tried to alter the Summon Monster line of spells to require more continuous input as well, so they didn't feel so much like fire-and-forget. It proved unpopular, though for different reasons I think.

    Woah, that's a lot of abilities. I didn't even think to do it by creature type - I would have said "Here are the main pantheon, and then here are 3-4 sample bonuses for each alignment so your DM can make one specifically for your god". But doing it by creature type does work well for non-core race Paladins, which are more common in 3.X than in Pathfinder.
    Most players still make characters from the given humanoid races, but I always try to avoid saying some one shouldn't or can't explore options outside the box.
    I tried to make it as clear as possible that what ability the paladin gets is largely up for a decision between them and the GM, whether its always the same, or if it changes, or if the paladin can decide, or wants to propose something new, etc.

    I should have assumed that, but I was thrown off by the fact that it doesn't specifically say "A paladin who was previously unable to cast divine spells casts off the [3.5 OR Pathfinder] spell list, which can be found at (SRD link)".
    I've updated the language.

    Personally, I really like Pathfinder's list (I've never played a Paladin in 3.5) because it's designed to fit around full attacking. There are lots of swift-action spells, ways to absorb or deflect damage, ways to move more quickly, and the like. It's very tailored to front-line combat.
    I've never played a lot of PF even though I regularly pillage it for ideas. I do like the extra options on the spell list, though I'm less of a fan of all the pally-only spells. I don't see why we need something like Bestow Grace when a more generic Cat's grace, etc, wouldn't require a rehashing of basically the same text. 3.5 has options, they just where very stingy handing them out to non-full casters.

    Heh, "pally"? You really are a WoW player
    WAS a WoW player. I kicked the habit and have been clean for an entire expansion at this point.

    Oh, so they are spontaneous casters? In general, I prefer spontaneous casting to prepared, so I think that's super cool. But where is a table of spells known by level?
    Ah, see, this is part of what I meant by "homebrewing in vacuum". The spell-progression is based off a modified version of the charts in this thread, where I tried to standardize the spells per day across classes, as well as scrap the "spells known chart" entirely. I didn't like that practically every class had its own combination of charts and such which had to be referenced. Now they just learn one or two spells of their choice per level, with a few restrictions, and all progression follows some fairly simple/obvious patterns.

    For the Paladin, it says under the Spells description that they learn three 1st level spells at first level, and one additional spell every level thereafter. Overall, a player could only learn 17 different spells, max, but the choice of which spells to learn is entirely up to them.
    Last edited by Deepbluediver; 2013-07-23 at 12:04 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    It's not called common because the sense is common, it's called common because it's about common things.
    Homebrew Extended Signature!

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    AttilaTheGeek's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Boston (UTC-5)
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Paladin Fix: PrC [3.X, PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Deepbluediver View Post
    Computer-based RPGs can be good sources of inspiration, but its important to remember that overall they tend to have much less freedom and fewer options on the upper end of things. For example, all the WoW "Wizards" are pretty much just evocation with a little CC, and building a Sorcadin is an impossibility.
    Fair; at least it prevents the wizard mage from being the tier 1 be-all-end-all to every problem.

    When I took ideas from WoW, rather than giving them to any one class, tried to incorporate them into weapon-style feats, so they would be available to any melee class.
    Particularly Sword-n-Board, which has a "taunt" and other protection-sharing abilities.
    Good! I do like "aggro" and "taunt" as concepts, and think they could do well in 3.X.



    Yeah, I'm still brainstorming over a way to incorporate skills somehow, without it feeling like a punishment. Maybe I'll alter it so that it always removes a limited number of effects, but a good skill check can remove more.
    Just tossing out an idea here, but what if you set a Heal DC, but gave a bonus on the check based on level? For example, the three levels, er, tiers, uh, strata of conditions could be DC 10, 20, and 35 Heal checks, but you get a bonus on the check equal to twice your Paladin level. The last tier is 35 instead of 30 because those are crippling conditions, like Stunned, but also because I mathed out those ranks and they work nicely.

    With Heal DCs at 10, 20, and 35, then a Paladin with no ranks in Heal always has a roughly 50% chance to dispel a condition appropriate for their level (that is, first tier conditions at 3, second tier conditions at 5, third tier at 10). But, a paladin who's put max ranks into Heal will always be able to beat those DCs, even on a 1. At least, if I've done my math right.

    I gotta figure out exactly what to do with Leadership at some point; I'm thinking of just having it provide the lowbie minions, and instead making something like cohorts a different feat or feats.
    Combat Medic- pocket Healer 2/3 your level
    Herald- Bard 2/3 your level
    Bodyguard- Fighter 2/3 your level
    etc; it's a WIP

    Also, yes I definitely may need to homebrew some rules for controlling more than one character in combat. I would probably work it into the Animal Companion feature that they defaulted to guarding you defensively, and getting them to do anything else required a command on the players part, taking up some action.
    I would strongly recommend not using Pathfinder's control system for animal companions, as it is complicated, buggy, and difficult to keep track of. Instead, what about something like this: it's a swift action to order any number of creatures to perform one action (e.g, "you, cast this spell" or "both of you, cast this spell"), a move action to order two actions (e.g, "you cast this spell, but you over there cast that other spell"), and a standard action to issue 3+ orders.

    I tried to alter the Summon Monster line of spells to require more continuous input as well, so they didn't feel so much like fire-and-forget. It proved unpopular, though for different reasons I think.
    I like that in theory, but it seems difficult to implement elegantly.

    WAS a WoW player. I kicked the habit and have been clean for an entire expansion at this point.
    Congrats! I started in Cata, and but I'd say that Mists isn't worth $40. I use WoW as an instant messaging client to talk to the rest of my guild more than anything else.

    Ah, see, this is part of what I meant by "homebrewing in vacuum". The spell-progression is based off a modified version of the charts in this thread, where I tried to standardize the spells per day across classes, as well as scrap the "spells known chart" entirely. I didn't like that practically every class had its own combination of charts and such which had to be referenced. Now they just learn one or two spells of their choice per level, with a few restrictions, and all progression follows some fairly simple/obvious patterns.

    For the Paladin, it says under the Spell description that they learn three 1st level spells at first level, and one additional spell every level thereafter. Overall, a player could only learn 17 different spells, max, but the choice of which spells to learn is entirely up to them.
    Hm, okay. Cool.
    Homebrew: Temporalist Quotebox Avatar by Kris on a Stick
    Blue is for sarcasm Call me Attila

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Deepbluediver's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    The US of A

    Default Re: Paladin Fix: PrC [3.X, PEACH]

    Ok, got distracted by a very interesting discussion with Vadskye about spell-schools, but I finally got around to completing the list of special deity-based abilities. I'm sure there are some imbalances in there, but ultimately I think that most of them are pretty interesting, and ultimately it's up the DM which ones you have access to, so I'm comfortable with it for now.

    Edit: NVM, I'm still missing one- Goblins.

    Quote Originally Posted by AttilaTheGeek View Post
    Just tossing out an idea here, but what if you set a Heal DC, but gave a bonus on the check based on level? For example, the three levels, er, tiers, uh, strata of conditions could be DC 10, 20, and 35 Heal checks, but you get a bonus on the check equal to twice your Paladin level. The last tier is 35 instead of 30 because those are crippling conditions, like Stunned, but also because I mathed out those ranks and they work nicely.

    With Heal DCs at 10, 20, and 35, then a Paladin with no ranks in Heal always has a roughly 50% chance to dispel a condition appropriate for their level (that is, first tier conditions at 3, second tier conditions at 5, third tier at 10). But, a paladin who's put max ranks into Heal will always be able to beat those DCs, even on a 1. At least, if I've done my math right.
    The math DOES work out, and it's certainly an interesting concept, but I think it might be a little more complicated than I'm going for here. Plus, it feels strange to give a check to a skill based on class level, but only when used in conjunction with a special ability.

    I will keep this sort of mechanic in mind, and look for a future class where it might be applicable, though.

    I would strongly recommend not using Pathfinder's control system for animal companions, as it is complicated, buggy, and difficult to keep track of. Instead, what about something like this: it's a swift action to order any number of creatures to perform one action (e.g, "you, cast this spell" or "both of you, cast this spell"), a move action to order two actions (e.g, "you cast this spell, but you over there cast that other spell"), and a standard action to issue 3+ orders.
    Being able to give all the same order to several creatures with a swift action still gives you effective control over your normal PC, plus several weaker ones. I'll probably make it 1 creature as a swift action, 2 as a move, 3 as a standard, etc. The benefit of an animal companion vs. summoned creatures will likely be that they have a limited capacity to act autonomously when you don't order them to do something.

    I like that in theory, but it seems difficult to implement elegantly.
    Yes, it's proving challenging. Part of it, I think, is gaining acceptance for a nerf to a popular feature, even to what can be ("can", mind you, not always I admit) overpowered or unbalanced.

    Congrats! I started in Cata, and but I'd say that Mists isn't worth $40. I use WoW as an instant messaging client to talk to the rest of my guild more than anything else.
    For me it wasn't the initial cost; compared to hours-played, 40 dollars every 18 months or so is cheap. It was the $15 a month subscription fee, which amounts to nearly $200 a year that I didn't like.
    I had my moment of epiphany when I logged out one day, then realized I had spent 2 hours shuffling items around between toons, crafting, and selling to the auction house, but had never actually left a city. Nor had I felt any desire to do so.
    So basically, I was paying WoW's subscription fee for a toned-down version of The Sims.

    I figured that when I really get in the hankering for a little fantasy RPG that free flash games can't satisfy, I can spend 5 or 10 dollars on Steam and own a game forever.
    Last edited by Deepbluediver; 2013-08-06 at 12:48 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    It's not called common because the sense is common, it's called common because it's about common things.
    Homebrew Extended Signature!

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •