MitD 007: GoldenEyes (Please Read the First Post)

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Been following this for a while, but had a random thought a while ago, and doesn't seem to be mentioned in the first post (though probably it has been, knowing this forum)
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0259.html
It's arguable it it should be canon, but wouldn't this imply that the MitD is something a random hobgblin would recognize?
Problems: 1) again, how seriously one should take a mail strip; 2) if hobgoblins' knowledge means something in a world when one can just check the monster manual; 3) how can this help narrowing down the options

I'm afraid it has indeed been mentioned. Too much Rule of Funny to be useful. FAQ hobgoblins are allowed more knowledge than regular hobgoblins.

Grey Wolf

[Shale]

Plus they could have just described what MITD looks like without knowing what to name it. Like, if he's a Protean, they could have been about to say "a disgusting shapeshifter that looks like a mass of jelly most of the time," and that wouldn't require any special knowledge of monster types.

[Jay R]

I just had a thought. It's partly but not completely mentioned in 1g, about why the MitD can't recognize the gate.

We now know that the MitD has been on the Astral Plane, because he accurately described it in Strip 833.

Therefore he had done intra-planar travel, before coming to Dorukan's gate. So we have good reason to believe that he had already seen a gate spell.

If he comes from a plane with no mundane objects like gates, he would consider that word to be a spell, not an object.

[b_jonas]

A quick question. Who is Mr. Dragon that MitD mentions in #477? That need not be his real name of course, it could be a name only the MitD uses.

Update: thanks, DaggerPen, that makes sense.

[DaggerPen]

It's MitD's stuffed green dragon toy. You will find him amongst the tea party guests.

[b_jonas]

As an exercise, let me try two unlikely identities for the MitD.

-----

The MitD is most definitely not Mary Poppins from Travers's books.

The books are copyrighted, so the Giant most likely wouldn't be able to use the character in the comics.

Why the MitD is similar to Mary Poppins:

• Both carry a magical umbrella with an unusual appearance (Hello Kitty and magical shadow in one case, talking parrot head in the other case).
• Neither would eat babies.
• Mary Poppins very likely has the ability to teleport the children with her, as she has led them to places in the city that didn't use to be there. Even if she can't teleport, she definitely does strange magic often.
• She is vain, and wants people to admire her for her appearance, not for her abilities. The MitD wants to step of the shadows so that others can see her.
• Few people know who she really is or where she's got her abilities. Mr. and Mrs. Banks probably don't even know she has magical abilties.
• Mary Poppins has helped a captured and mistreated bird escape, and she not only got away with it, but Mr. and Mrs. Banks don't even suspect she was involved. The MitD helped a bird, a wizard and a paladin escape, and afterwards neither Xykon nor Redcloak suspected he was involved.
• Mary Poppins can be scary. If she is in a bad mood, the children are very careful not to anger her any further. Mary can achieve this without really doing anything. She doesn't have to specifically discipline the children. When she puts down his foot, not even Mr. and Mrs. Banks dares to deny her. She is not usually in such a mood though, generally she does not inspire fear. This aligns completely with what Xykon says about the MitD in strip #191.
• Mary appears as a human, so she's the right size and has two eyes and a mouth.

Here's some reasons why Mary Poppins can't be the MitD, besides the copyright problem.

• In #701, MitD finds pulling a rope tricky. In contrast, Mary Poppins Comes Back chapter 1 specifically states that Mary Poppins is very good in manual dexterity tasks such as helping the children disrobe.
• I have no explanation for how Mary Poppins could hit Miko and Windstriker so hard, how she could shrug off all the attacks, or how she would stomp to make an earthquake.
• Even if the hunters misidentify Mary as “one of these” such as a nanny or a human, they probably wouldn't capture her and sell her to a circus.
• I can't explain why the circus spectators would be disgusted either.

-----

The MitD is probably not Toldi Miklós from Arany János's epic poems “Toldi”, “Toldi szerelme” and “Toldi estéje”, though there are a few similarities.

Arany János's poems are in public domain, so there is no problem with copyright. (Benedek Elek's retelling of the story can't be used, but that won't come up much as it doesn't add anything to characterization that the Arany poems don't contain.)

Here are the similarities between Toldi and the MitD.

• Toldi repeatedly demonstrates his superhuman strength and toughness.
• Toldi specifically both stomps and shouts to scare and stop the bull. This aligns completely with [url=http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0475.html]the MitD's shout stopping Belkar and Haley[url], and to the earthquake ability somewhat, though Toldi did not create huge cracks in the earth.
• Toldi's personality aligns with that of the MitD. He tries to help people selflessly, even people he's just met. He is loyal to his friends, but does what he thinks is right instead of only submitting to his superior's commands. He is somewhat immature, though not as childish as the MitD. He is not very interested in women and doesn't see them as equals.
• The way the MitD protects his friends from his other friends by trying to ensure there is no fight reminds me to how Miklós tries to protect his brother György from the king.
• People have mixed reactions to Toldi, because he certainly has charisma but he isn't always popular. Spectators are rarely neutral to him.
• Toldi is a big eater, just like the MitD.
• He is a human, so he is the right size, has eyes and teeth.
• Miklós's father Lőrinc has died when Miklós was ten years old, and was also a knight or similar, so he could remember his father as being bigger than him.

And here's some reasons why I think Toldi Miklós isn't the MitD.

• Toldi is a man of action, he doesn't like being passive. The MitD does not behave like this.
• Escape. I'm not surprised that Toldi would save O'Chul and Varsaavius, but there's no way he could teleport them so far away.

[SavageWombat]

As an exercise, let me try two unlikely identities for the MitD.

Well, that's two down. Good job!

[Conte_Vincero]

*creeps out of woodwork*

What if Mary Poppins was in 3d form? While she might be recognisable, they would have no idea about what she was. Pygmies have been put in zoos, so why not a 3D Human in a circus (note that I am not condoning this horrific act). a creature of 3 dimensions would confuse an audience, with some minds not being able to process what they saw, resulting in the throwing up. Also this explains the hunger, How can a 3 dimensional character expect to be satisfied by 2 dimensional food.

[Canisius]

I was certain that MitD was like Nom, the sandgorgon in the Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the Unbeliever. The thing that got me thinking about it was its preference for pushing rather than pulling. I was very sad to read up on sandgorgons and realize this wasn't possible. =(

(btw, there is a scene involving Nom in that series that still sends shivers down my spine some 40 years after I first read it. I've never been so surprised reading any novel. I remember when I hit it, I put the book down and just stared into space with drool dripping down my lip. I then re-read it about a dozen times.)

This is a fun discussion, and I'm learning a lot about the Monster Manual and other fantasy universes! Thanks for keeping it going.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I was certain that MitD was like Nom, the sandgorgon in the Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the Unbeliever. The thing that got me thinking about it was its preference for pushing rather than pulling. I was very sad to read up on sandgorgons and realize this wasn't possible. =(

For the record, are you officially suggesting the Nom? I.e. do you think it should be added to the first post?

Grey Wolf (archivist hat)

[Canisius]

For the record, are you officially suggesting the Nom? I.e. do you think it should be added to the first post?

Grey Wolf (archivist hat)

Sadly, no. There are several problems with Nom or other sandgorgons. They don't have eyes, they don't eat, and they're imprisoned in a perpetual sandstorm unless you speak their names. There are others, but I'm pretty convinced they don't meet the criteria of MitD.

Now that I started thinking about the Covenant books, though, I'm going through their bestiary on Wikipedia, and am considering some other possibilities from Stephen Donaldson's universe. One happy thing about this discussion is that I remember how much I loved those books and am seeing if I still have them stored away so I can re-read them. =)

[Canisius]

Sadly, no. There are several problems with Nom or other sandgorgons. They don't have eyes, they don't eat, and they're imprisoned in a perpetual sandstorm unless you speak their names. There are others, but I'm pretty convinced they don't meet the criteria of MitD.

Now that I started thinking about the Covenant books, though, I'm going through their bestiary on Wikipedia, and am considering some other possibilities from Stephen Donaldson's universe. One happy thing about this discussion is that I remember how much I loved those books and am seeing if I still have them stored away so I can re-read them. =)

As for the scene I mentioned, its cleverness and long-term planning in the novels reminds me a bit of Rich's style.

[JustWantedToSay]

More support for the heavily templated potted plant:

https://twitter.com/RichBurlew/statu...26348480970752



EDIT: And for the Audrey II.

[Qwertystop]

More support for the heavily templated potted plant:

https://twitter.com/RichBurlew/statu...26348480970752



EDIT: And for the Audrey II.

Are you thinking of parsley?

[JustWantedToSay]

Are you thinking of parsley?

Paisley, AKA: Persian Pickles. Welsh Pears.

"Some design scholars believe it is the convergence of a stylized floral spray and a cypress tree"

[Ron Miel]

How does that support the potted plant guess?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

How does that support the potted plant guess?

It matches its leaves.

(Presumably, the whole train of thought is done with a tongue firmly planted in the cheek).

GW

[DaggerPen]

With regards to the dimensional locking/anchoring/etc. arguments of yore - a casting of Dimensional Lock that doesn't change the vessel color.

(This is included largely for completeness, since the Dimensional Anchored box arguments were always kind of tenuous, especially compared to the much better "Maybe V hit him with the stray Dimensional Anchor" argument.)

[b_jonas]

I have a question about the escape scene. Is it possible that the soul of the conjurer Ganonron, Terror of a Thousand Planes has cast the spell that has teleported Varsaavius and O-Chul away?

Maybe Ganonron has used the MitD as the mortal host to cast the spell, for which he needed the MitD's specific will to let him do that. No wonder the MitD doesn't understand how he teleported O-Chul and couldn't replicate the effect later: Ganonron didn't stay with him for long after that. Or maybe the MitD is a demon or similar monster that is normally adept in capturing and handling evil souls, and he has somehow convinced or forced Ganonron to cast the spell.

Ganonron's involvement would explain how the MitD knew where to send Varsaavius: he didn't, but Ganonron knew because he's been on the site a few minutes ago. It might even explain why the MitD stayed in place: it was Ganonron who's cast the spell, so he had to go, but he didn't target the MitD.

[Steven]

Kinda contradicts the bit about the MitD digging deep etc.

Also what motivation would he have for doing it? He seemed pretty pleased to be free of the soulbind and doesn't seem to be aligned with the fiends in any way.

[Qwertystop]

Wouldn't say he seemed too pleased. Not upset, certainly, but not gleeful like Haerta either.

There is one big thing here, though: Assuming that this is a plausible solution means removing the Escape from meaningful criteria, unless we find a creature that specifically has the ability to bind nearby ghosts or something.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Is it possible that the soul of the conjurer Ganonron, Terror of a Thousand Planes has cast the spell that has teleported Varsaavius and O-Chul away?

Not really, no:

[O-Chul] breaks himself out of the cage, he drives off Redcloak with a lucky shot, and most importantly, he has won the trust of the monster in the darkness over the course of months. So much so that the monster digs deep and discovers powers that he didn't even know he had in order to save him.

Ganondorf or whatever the guy is called casting through MitD does not match the author's assurance that MitD was the cause of the escape, and robs O'Chul and MitD of major pieces of character development in the process.

Grey Wolf

[HokusSchmokus]

Alright, so I think this might have been posted before, but didn't find any of this in "characteristics" section:

MitD seems to be something Goblins are rather familiar with. Two of the goblins in the circus scene are looking really unimpressed, and the goblin children seem to cheer for it, so maybe it is a creature known to goblin folklore?
Just something to consider, if it already has been done, just ignore me:)

[Bird]

b_jonas also presented the idea that the MitD hijacked Ganonron's power. This wouldn't necessarily conflict with the Giant's words about "digging deep," since the MitD would be "digging deep" to take over a soul.

I don't find this option particularly believable -- it seems unnecessarily complicated, and why would Ganonron be sticking around to get hijacked? I also think it would require MitD to have more knowledge of his abilities, since he'd have to hijack someone with a specified skill and then force them to use that skill. Still, it makes more sense than Ganonron hijacking MitD, which would raise questions of Ganonron's motivation, and rob MitD of character development, as Grey Wolf said.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

MitD seems to be something Goblins are rather familiar with. Two of the goblins in the circus scene are looking really unimpressed, and the goblin children seem to cheer for it, so maybe it is a creature known to goblin folklore?

The most parsimonious explanation is that since the goblin family has gone to see the show so often, the elder one is bored, and the younger ones just excited because their friend is there (RC would be unimpressed just because he has seen -and done- much worse). That would be the case even if they were any other species, so it is a weak argument to make.

Still, creatures that are part of goblin folklore can use (and have) it as a pro. Barghest comes to mind.

Grey Wolf

[DaveMcW]

Vermiurge (SRD or ELH 226)

revolting sight, but can speak and is immune to mind-affecting spells.

Vemiurge is my top pick, and it is very close to fitting all the big scenes.

1. Vermiurges speak Terran, not Common. It's possible that Terran is such an alien language that the hunters don't count it as speaking.

2. MITD is extremely susceptible to being bossed around. It's possible Xykon's words alone convinced him, despite being immune to the spell.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

2. MITD is extremely susceptible to being bossed around. It's possible Xykon's words alone convinced him, despite being immune to the spell.

No. It got swirly eyes, which has always indicated that the spell successfully dominated the target mind.

GW

[DaveMcW]

No. It got swirly eyes, which has always indicated that the spell successfully dominated the target mind.

GW

And you trust Rich to never give any misdirection about MITD?

Alternately, he could be too immature to be immune to mind-affecting spells.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

And you trust Rich to never give any misdirection about MITD?

For the purposes of this thread, yes, I do.

Alternately, he could be too immature to be immune to mind-affecting spells.

Is there fluff anywhere indicating this could be the case? I can buy strength growing from childhood to maturity, but immunity to mind affecting spells is an absolute - it is not something that changes over the lifetime.

Grey Wolf

[DaggerPen]

I thought the problem with the Vermiurge was that it couldn't explain the Escape?