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  1. - Top - End - #1201
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    Grey_Wolf_c's Avatar

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    Default Re: MitD 007: GoldenEyes (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by Joerg View Post
    Could that "Fist of Yog-Sothoth" explain the tower scene?
    Tubular Ox already said it cannot - in his second post, maybe? Definitely somewhere, though. HH still has 34 STR, which while a tad on the low side, is still well within rule of thumb used by the thread.

    GW
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    There is a world of imagination
    Deep in the corners of your mind
    Where reality is an intruder
    And myth and legend thrive
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

  2. - Top - End - #1202
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: MitD 007: GoldenEyes (Please Read the First Post)

    Okay, doing an info dump. I realize that I'm repeating myself a lot, and that this is poorly presented, except possibly if you already have the first post open in another window and are going down the list like I did, but I feel any challenge to one particular point must first see the weight of the whole:

    I allege:
    The Monster in the Dark is a Hunting Horror.

    Rich had the means, motive, and opportunity to see him around strip 100:
    • Strip 100 was published in Sep of 2004
    • The Monster Manual III was published in Sep 2004
    • Rich has a design credit in the Monster Manual III
    • Therefore, “Around strip 100,” Rich is researching 3.0 monsters for inclusion into the MMIII
    • WotC is not shy about CoC: Many corrupt spells from BoVD were originally CoC spells, such as “Consume Likeness.”
    • At this point in time (strip 100), all Rich knows about the MitD is that it is big and nasty, sits in the dark, and he’s starting to turn it into a running gag that he never comes out.
    • Rich finds the Hunting Horror in the CoC, where it is described as “Darkness Incarnate” and “The Haunter in the Dark,” and it is said to “haunt the dark places of the Universe.”
    However, Rich is walking a fine line
    • The Hunting Horror is huge, the MitD is large. Being a baby is possible; it’s a dragon, and dragons have childhoods.
    • The Hunting Horror almost certainly has alternate feats. (Shock Wave, as explained later)
    • The Hunting Horror has had a printed rule about monsters being able to learn spells applied to it -- it uses several Mythos spells over the course of the story.

    So it is partly a printed creation, and partly a created one.

    This is the hunting horror.
    Hunting Horror
    Huge Dragon (Greater Servitor Race)
    Hit Dice: 20. 230 average hp.
    Initiative: Mild but positive
    Speed: 30’ slither, 90’ fly, 300’ fly in smoke form.
    Armor Class: Pathetic for a CR 20 creature.
    Attacks: 1 bite, 1 tail grab, 2 wing slaps, or by spell. Yes, 2 wing slaps, despite only one wing.
    Damage: Bite averages 20, tail-tentacle averages 18, wing slap averages 16.
    Face/Reach: Yes to both.
    Special attacks
    Improved Grab/Ravenous Maw: It’s an improved grab. It explicitly holds you with its mouth. It can masticate you or attempt to swallow you whole.
    Masticate: after a successful improved grab, automatic damage every round, averages 32. “A character slain in this manner is shredded and dismembered”
    Improved Grab/tail-tentacle: Still an improved grab. Can constrict for average 18 damage per round.
    Swallow Whole: Exposes victim to Nausea. Amusingly, the hunting horror can spit out a swallowed victim as a ranged attack. The damage is based on how far the character is spit, but there’s no indication of what the range of his spit attack is. Still, the attack bonus is high. There’s a huge potential for hilarity.
    Roar: Extremely similar to a breath weapon, including the 1dx round-delay after using, but not noted as such. A sonic cone that averages 50 damage on a failed Will save.
    Spell-like Abilities:
    Darkness: As the spell
    Death by Flames: Think heat metal, only without the metal requirement
    Deflect Harm: I’m going to quote this:
    You deflect a number of successful incoming physical attacks equal to your level, although each attack you deflect causes you to take 2 points of temporary intelligence damage. You can choose to take normal damage from an attack rather than Int damage (thus, it doesn’t count toward your maximum number of one attack per level), but you must make this decision before the damage is rolled. All attacks deflected must occur before your next action.
    It’s baffling to me that this spell has a duration, given the last sentence.
    Evil Eye: A Bestow Curselike luck penalty to any roll you’d want to make, but if you can land a hit on the Horror, it’s canceled.
    Fist of Yog-Sothoth: You can pretend it’s Bigby’s Forceful Hand, even though there are about a half dozen numerical differences.
    Grasp of Cthulhu: Fail your save, be immobilized. Does nonlethal damage, but can’t do more than render you unconscious. Not a grapple.
    Shriveling: Averages 20 damage on a failed save. Yay.
    Suggestion: As the spell.
    True Strike: As the spell.
    Wrack: Wracked with pain. Save or be helpless. Even if you live past the duration, you suffer penalties for an average of 15 minutes more.
    Special Qualities:
    Darkvision: 1 freaking mile.
    Blindsight: Much saner, still one of the largest blindsights I’ve seen.
    Nausea: 200’ radius, Fort save or nauseated, fail and it’s only a penalty to attacks, saves, and skill checks.
    Smoke form: Standard action to turn incorporeal or to turn back.
    Penetrate Deflection: It can do it. Seems odd in a setting with very few deflection bonuses.
    Immunities: Immune to paralysis
    Damage Reduction: 5/+1
    Fast Healing: 10
    Vulnerable to Light: 1d6 torchlight/moonlight, 3d6 direct sunlight
    Saves: Calculable.
    Abilities:
    Str 34 - enough for the tower scene
    Dex XX - compared to a human, high.
    Con XX - Very high.
    Int 17 - Good enough to learn Go quickly.
    Wis XX - High! But he may be inflicting Wis drain on himself as the story progresses.
    Cha 21 - some might perceive him as beautiful.
    Skills:
    Concentration, Intimidate, Knowledge (Occult), Listen, Move Silently, Search, Spellcraft, Spot. All very high.
    Feats:
    Power attack is on there, but I don’t think the list as a whole is relevant since Rich is using custom feats: The scene where he slaps his tail to knock Haley and Belkar prone looks exactly like Shock Wave, a feat printed in Draconomicon that requires you to be a Dragon. Which the Horror is.
    Climate: “Any nighttime or sunless place”
    Sanity Loss: 1/1d10
    How it fits the big scenes
    The Escape
    The MitD has a few choices here.
    • It can use the Mythos’ version of Word of Recall, which has no touch requirement, allows the sending of others, and designates its sanctuary at the time of casting instead of the time of preparation (since Mythos spells are not prepared). It has its many experiences with O-Chul to become very familiar with Hinjo, possibly assisted by an ability to Mind Probe or by using a Contact Human spell to mentally rifle through O-Chul’s thoughts. We are forced to rely on a stray dimensional anchor to fit this.
    • It can use Contact Deity to contact a creature that is, as written, not bound by the rules of time. While the MitD has to wait 1d4 hours for it to arrive, the creature can choose to act on events anywhen, including at the time most appropriate for their escape. This ability is not bound by the limits of Miracle or Wish, since it actually contacts the deity.
    • With a spare dagger that just happens to be lying around (material component), the MitD can use Summon/Bind Dimensional Shamblers (6 of them), who can use Hide from the Eye to invisibly drag V and O-Chul to safety through the ethereal. On arrival, the can use Cloud Memory to make them forget events.
    • Alternatively, they can use their own Words of Recall (who’s to say what they are and aren’t familiar with?) to carry V and O-Chul to safety. If the MitD is summoning them for the express purpose of saving his friends, then they may come prepackaged with the ability to save his friends.
    • The MitD can do the proxied word of recall trick with another creature whose summon/bind spell is less troublesome. (ie, no material component -- every summon/bind spell is different)


    The question here isn't "Which ability did Rich use?" it's "Would Rich reject all the abilities on this list, if he needed a way to let the MitD save O-Chul?" Or maybe, "Would any of these abilities inspire Rich to script O-Chul's capture and escape, and is Rich the kind of guy to shoehorn the scene to fit once he's had the inspiration?"

    The Tower
    On defense
    • Deflect Harm is an at will SLA that deflects a physical attack at the cost of 2 Int damage (this int damage is a part of the spell’s effect and not a part of the spell’s cost. This becomes relevant to discussions on whether SLA’s require the MitD paying a spell’s ability damage Cost.)
    • The listed Hunting Horror has 17 int. This matches the MitD -- he learns Go quickly.
    • Miko and Belkar swing five times each.
    • Bypassing miss chance, hitting every time, that is 10 int damage.
    • The monster is reduced to being as intelligent as Elan. A team of scientists are still working to figure out how we could measure that.
    On offense
    • The Hunting Horror has 34 Str, which I’m told meets board standards, especially since Rich is prone to exaggerating effects. (Control Weather does sonic damage?)


    The Circus

    • The hunting horror is guaranteed to survive 29 rounds in direct sunlight, but is expected to survive over 40 minutes. It is expected to be a gradual, almost painless process (on average). Being removed from sunlight will restore it to full health in a matter of minutes or less.
    • It has a passive Nausea ability. Vomiting is plausible.
    • It inflicts sanity loss (passively). Cutting a long story short, the audience’s reactions are a good statistical representation of what would happen if that many creatures experienced a sanity check all at once.
    • Goblins have no sanity score and never make sanity checks
    • It is a DC 30 Knowledge (arcana) roll to know what the Hunting Horror is. A level 3 Wizard with 18 int and max ranks in Knowledge (Arcana) succeeds on a 20.
    • Redcloak, otoh, probably doesn’t have a problem with that.
    • It is also a Mythos creature in a world with very few mythos elements, so the wizard isn’t likely to know “anything like it” either.
    • Cha 21 explains the beautiful comment


    Not seeing the gates
    In CoC, Create Gate is a spell that creates a teleporter that "takes the form of a circle or pattern on a floor or another horizontal surface." Being a Hunting Horror, the MitD may not be familiar with other usages of the word Gate, leading to the confusion it displays in the relevant scenes.

    Impossibilities
    The hunting horror is a dragon
    It eats, sleeps, and breathes
    It is not immune to mind control
    … I’m drawing a blank. What were the other requirements?

    Existed before strip #100
    See “Means, motive, opportunity” at the opening of this post.

    Size no bigger than Huge
    Dragons are living creatures with childhoods. The MitD acts like a child and mentions its father being much bigger than it. It is a baby Hunting Horror with size Large. This does require stretching the rules a bit, but it’s plausible when you consider that Rich pegged the MitD’s size before discovering the hunting horror.
    It does not grow perceptibly during the course of the story, because Dragons have extremely long lifespans.
    (It is not a true dragon, it does not have printed age categories, but this doesn’t invalidate anything in this section)

    Abilities not already covered
    Attacks
    Yes, I’m proposing a child, but while there are rules for advancing a monster in size, I can’t find any for reducing a monster in size -- inverting the aging rules would likely make the penalty a -2 to strength, which would be consistent with the Reduce Person spell. If I may be permitted to reference the True Dragon rules just this once, going up a size category doesn’t always mean a huge jump in strength.

    Defences:
    It got a paper cut because its invulnerability is the result of a spell like ability and not DR, AC, or any such. In fact, its defenses are terrible. Even a mundane letter could overcome its DR as long as it does 1d6 damage and rolled high. Or 1d3 with a critical hit (which a hit to the tongue might be considered) Yes, I realize that’s a nasty letter. It was strongly worded.
    If he applies his own strength bonus to his letter attack, it penetrates his DR instantly.
    Miko believes it has DR because all of her hits that did not whiff to miss chance or the high to hit penalty from being her final iteratives were “deflected.” Miko is wrong.
    RC knows that the MitD has a tendency to subconsciously activate his Deflect Harm SLA, on top of which, it does have DR 5/+1 and Fast Healing 10. A stab to the face is not likely to have a lasting effect.

    Earth Cracking
    This is an application of the Shock Wave feat from Draconomicon: Slap the ground with your tail, bull rush to everything in a large radius, damage to unattended objects. The damage is exaggerated, but so is his hit in the tower scene, so it’s consistent. The requirements are pitiably small: Power attack, Str 13 (13!), Large size, Dragon type.

    Knowledge
    17 Int and max ranks in Spellcraft and Knowledge (Occult) easily explains both his knowledge of the ritual and his knowledge of the astral plane. And fuels the Gate joke if we go in that direction.

    Psionics
    Not psionic in the classic sense. Might have feats that resemble psionics, but require ability damage to use.
    As for his actual abilities, does have a “grasp of cthulhu” SLA that allows him to immobilize things (without moving them -- this is relevant for the rope pulling scene). This is where the discussion of SLA’s fits in. SLA’s may not have an ability cost for using, which means he’s free to Grasp things at will, since he suffers neither the printed ability costs nor sanity costs. Deflect Harm, an SLA, would be the exception because the int damage is a part of the effect, not the cost. I say “may not” because the book implies rather strongly in two or three different places that SLA’s don’t cause ability damage costs, but I can’t find if it states it flat out.
    Since we’re on the subject, also has a Fist of Yog Sothoth that pushes things (See: rope pulling scene). It’s a magical bull rush by an invisible str 17 Large creature. (This is insufficient for the tower scene -- shifting Miko's horse in particular would be a challenge -- but it's good to know)

    Rain
    Control Weather is a mythos spell. Since I haven’t gone into detail on these yet, Mythos spells are silly. Anyone can learn them, regardless of class or level. Once learned, anyone can cast them at any time without preparation. In universe, they are balanced by all requiring Ability damage, ability drain, and/or stiff losses in Sanity. Sanity is meaningless to the Hunting Horror, and Rich is consistently portraying the ability damage as him becoming sleepy, as he does shortly after it starts raining in the one scene it comes up.

    Raising undead
    Can’t do it: Check.

    Sight
    It’s possible Rich is interpreting the 1 mile Darkvision as being sufficient to spot Xykon at that range, even if it isn’t actually dark. in this instance his darkvision is not stifled by the magical darkness because of the "Can look out" rule that we're already relying on.

    Speech
    The Hunting Horror entry explicitly says Hunting Horrors rarely speak. It does not comment at all on what languages they might speak, hence the SBGH’s surprise

    Shout
    The Hunting Horror has a Roar ability that is a cone of sonic damage. I contend that Haley and Belkar were, in fact, damaged. They’re just handling it well.

    Demon Roaches
    He’s Nauseating because of his stench and is expressly portrayed as being a slob.

    Swallow Whole
    Possible. As is chewing. And spitting things out afterwards.

    Drawing Clues
    The Hunting Horror has two improved grabs, one with its mouth and one with its tail-tentacle. It also has an SLA that lets it immobilize things if it needs an extra hand, so to speak. Being Large, a 10’ reach is the reasonable choice for his tail-tentacle.
    His stomp is actually a tail slap. Rich changed the wording so it wouldn’t be obvious. Hence its position to his rear.
    Its movement mode is “slither,” so we can imagine him as being similar to an armless naga, with most of his body resting on the ground, but a front part he holds upright.
    Since we’re on the subject, depending on whether it’s a sidewinder or what, I can see Belkar being very confused about its tracks. Sidewinders are fricking amazing.

    Environment
    Rainforest is surprising, check.

    Family
    Has a dad because Dragons are living creatures.

    Mental resistance
    vulnerable to mind control

    Species
    As a servitor race, there is definitely more than one hunting horror.

    Physical characteristics
    Age
    Could be anything, it’s a dragon. Definitely suits “at least 30”

    Appearance
    Discussed above

    Body
    As a dragon, definitely corporeal, but because of his smoke form, not required to be.

    Diet
    Dragons eat. His maw is described as “Ravenous.” There is no printed text on a hunting horror’s diet, so anything is fair game.

    Gender
    Male is fine for dragons

    Head
    Eyes: 2 eyes is a listed variant of the Hunting Horror. So is two wings if it ever comes up
    Face: Yes.
    Mouth: Oh, yes.
    Olfactory Organ: Presumably dragon standard issue, since it’s not mentioned.
    Teeth: Very nasty. His Masticate attack could conceivably destroy Xykon’s phylactery in a few rounds. His Constrict attack would have a much harder time, but could do it eventually with enough lucky rolls.

    Limbs
    None. A mouth and a tail, both grabbing. A grasp, magical. His stomp is a tail slap. He slithers, leaving tracks, but strange ones if you’re a bad tracker like Belkar. A tentacle is presumably dextrous enough for crayon drawings
    He has three “appendages” for pulling the rope, and he only needs two. The immobilizing grasp could be used as his “step,” and then he can pull with his tail or mouth. Once the curtain is up, he can use the grasp again to hold the rope immobile, freeing up his mouth to talk if necessary.
    For the coloring book, he could be Grasping the umbrella while he colors with his tail. Or is he moving? I’m not familiar with that scene. He could also be holding the umbrella with his mouth.
    For the earthquake scene, he is ophidian.

    Maturity
    He is over 30, still a child, and likely not to mature much throughout the story. Dragons are long lived.

    Personal Odor
    This is how his Nausea ability is explicitly fluffed.

    Sleep
    Yes, he does it. He especially does it after every time he casts a Mythos spell.

    Darkness
    Magical darkness stifles his impressive darkvision, so he can only see out. This comes up in an early scene.


    I think that’s everything? One way or another. I know it's poorly organized.
    Last edited by Tubercular Ox; 2014-03-11 at 07:28 PM.

  3. - Top - End - #1203
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    NinjaGirl

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    Default Re: MitD 007: GoldenEyes (Please Read the First Post)

    Tubercular Ox, I freaking love you right now. You have done some tremendous amounts of legwork on this thing, and it's turning into a very solid argument. I think the CoC Word of Recall is basically the same as Teleport in main D&D for our purposes, so I accept it as an Escape explanation, which was always the weakest proposed part of the candidate. The SLA for the defenses does really help shore up the second weakest part, and so much of the fluff - the nauseating stench, ravenous maw, swallow whole, crude manipulative abilities, etc. - fit very well, which attracted me to the creature in the first place.
    I am: Neutral Good: -2 chaos, -21 evil and 15 balance!

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    Heartless? Those flaming letters spelled ELAN! How many sons can honestly say their father has murdered dozens of human beings just to show how much they care?

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    First, I'm impressed that this topic went so far off topic that it ended up back at The Order of the Stick.
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  4. - Top - End - #1204
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    Qwertystop's Avatar

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    Default Re: MitD 007: GoldenEyes (Please Read the First Post)

    I was thinking, as far as the difficulties with the 1d4 hours between Contact Deity and actually getting help: How long, roughly, was it between the acid-shark thing and the Escape? Because MitD was really hoping for O-Chul to escape then, too.
    Quote Originally Posted by jamieth View Post
    ...though Talla does her best to sound objective and impartial, it doesn't cover stuff like "ask a 9-year-old to tank for the party."
    My Homebrew

  5. - Top - End - #1205
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: MitD 007: GoldenEyes (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by Qwertystop View Post
    I was thinking, as far as the difficulties with the 1d4 hours between Contact Deity and actually getting help: How long, roughly, was it between the acid-shark thing and the Escape? Because MitD was really hoping for O-Chul to escape then, too.
    Unfortunately, Contact Deity requires negotiating a deal with the deity. It works in a timey-wimey ball scenario where the negotiating happens off panel, possibly in his dreams (which is common, per the spell's description), but not in a live scenario like that.

  6. - Top - End - #1206
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: MitD 007: GoldenEyes (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tubercular Ox View Post
    A regular teleport teleports you somewhere randomly when you miss your roll, but a greater teleport explicitly sends you nowhere if you haven't seen the destination or heard it described.
    It must be crowded in Somewhere and Nowhere if failed teleports go there by default. :-)


    Quote Originally Posted by Tubercular Ox View Post
    Alternatively, the MitD could have summoned and bound something with spells ... that then cast Word of Recall from a place of safety. Now the requirement is that they be familiar with Hinjo's location, and if MitD is summoning them for this exact purpose, he may be able to snare exactly the right creatures.
    Could he bind Ganonron's spirit? Or would that not help because that doesn't let the spirit cast spells without a body?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tubercular Ox View Post
    Swallow Whole: Exposes victim to Nausea. Amusingly, the hunting horror can spit out a swallowed victim as a ranged attack. The damage is based on how far the character is spit, but there’s no indication of what the range of his spit attack is. Still, the attack bonus is high. There’s a huge potential for hilarity.
    That's great. That could be used to spit Miko through the walls of the tower. We don't see the MitD hit Miko on-screen, so he could have swallowed her.

    Anyway, all this you're saying about the Hunting Horror is great. It seems to match the MitD well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Qwertystop View Post
    I was thinking, as far as the difficulties with the 1d4 hours between Contact Deity and actually getting help: How long, roughly, was it between the acid-shark thing and the Escape? Because MitD was really hoping for O-Chul to escape then, too.
    Good idea!

  7. - Top - End - #1207
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: MitD 007: GoldenEyes (Please Read the First Post)

    Hmmm, this is actually looking like it could be it, or it least certainly a better candidate than we had previously thought. Good work, Tubercular Ox!


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  8. - Top - End - #1208
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    Default Re: MitD 007: GoldenEyes (Please Read the First Post)

    It would explain why there's enough population to support a kingdom with trade relations.


    Quote Originally Posted by b_jonas View Post
    Could he bind Ganonron's spirit? Or would that not help because that doesn't let the spirit cast spells without a body?
    ... not under the circumstances. There are choices, but all of them are flawed. Bind Soul requires a prepared receptacle, Imprison Soul would trap Ganonron inside V (without necessarily persisting the soul splice), which contradicts the artwork, and Soul Trap requires a talisman that the target must have had in his possession "when he died." Snare Dreamer makes Ganonron visible when it succeeds, and can only questionably target him anyways.

    It should say something about the Call of Cthulhu setting that I had four different ways to say no to that question but can't find a raw teleport ability outside of Word of Recall.

    But oh hey since you brought it up, there's a whole line of Gate spells. Create Gate, Create Time Gate, Find Gate... they're useless for the escape scene since they're permanent effects in addition to having ridiculous casting times and requiring strength drain, but since it was speculated once that the MitD was having vocabulary problems wrt "Gate," there you go.

    Find gate is 2 wis damage to cast, though, so I still think that's "rule of funny"

    Edit: Or maybe not. in CoC, "Gates" are always on horizontal surfaces... I think I'm updating the post.
    Last edited by Tubercular Ox; 2014-03-11 at 05:03 PM.

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    Default Re: MitD 007: GoldenEyes (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by b_jonas View Post
    If the MitD was a tree, that would explain why he enjoys the sunlight and wants to be lit up. It also explains why he lives in the jungle, even if he can't be recognzied as a tree anymore because of his templates or shapechanging magic. This would also allow a repeat of the storyline near #872 where Durkon is unable to reach any compromise with the MitD just because he's a tree.

    It's a pity plants are immune to mind-affecting magic.
    Not necessarily. Someone worked out a way to turn a potted plant into MITD by stacking a bunch of templates on it, so one of them must remove the immunity to mind-affecting.
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    Default Re: MitD 007: GoldenEyes (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by ReaderAt2046 View Post
    Not necessarily. Someone worked out a way to turn a potted plant into MITD by stacking a bunch of templates on it, so one of them must remove the immunity to mind-affecting.
    The first template that removes plant-type and gives it any other removes the plant characteristics.

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    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

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    MindFlayer

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    Default Re: MitD 007: GoldenEyes (Please Read the First Post)

    I'm not sure I find this convincing, but I think it's at least as solid as the Carbosilicate Amorph. If not more so. I'd list it were it my call.

    The only issue I'd see is whether members have difficulty with the MitD having spell-casting ability it doesn't understand, as opposed to innate spell-like abilities. In most circumstances, a creature that has the ability to learn a spell from an outside source is quite aware that it has done so.

    On that note I also feel it unnecessary to limit the creature to spells from the CoC book only - if the creature as described is entitled to access to unusual high-level magic, letting him have "Wish" shouldn't be a stretch.

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    Default Re: MitD 007: GoldenEyes (Please Read the First Post)

    Another perspective is that the Hunting Horror fills the niche so neatly that it forces some uncomfortable questions on the other FBS candidates, chief among them being, "Why are they not displaying their full capabilities?"

    The Hunting Horror is sporting significant after market parts, but most of its major abilities have been either shown or mentioned.

    Of the ones that haven't, many are unseen because of his docile nature. I will grant this docile nature to the other FBS candidates when I consider them.
    His full attack routine
    Death by Flames
    Evil Eye
    Shriveling
    True Strike
    Wrack
    Penetrate Deflection
    Immune to paralysis
    The remainder:
    Darkness - he has had no need of this yet, but if I felt ornery I could propose that the hell kitty umbrella is a magic feather that channels his darkness SLA. He's under mind control, after all.
    Flight - Goddammit it's always something
    Smoke Form - If I can find again the scene where he catches someone completely by surprise and comments off hand that "sometimes that happens," this is demonstrated. Otherwise, nothing.
    Suggestion - Perhaps this is how he convinces Xykon not to face the Order of the Stick.

    Meanwhile, if the MitD is in fact:

    An athasian Nightmare Beast, why has he never demonstrated his at will planar ally, or his 3/day dispel magic, despite the numerous situations when he really wanted something that could have used one of those powers? O-Chul's captivity (not the escape) probably had several opportunities where a timely dispel magic could have won him some monopoly money

    A protean, why does he struggle to do anything? Why can he not see through magical darkness? Why is pushing easier than pulling? Why does he have to rock his box to get to the food?

    A carbosilicate amorph. Wow, this is a real testament to the fairness of this thread. Someone's going to have to pitch in here, I'm not qualified to talk on the amorph's abilities.

    A slaad, it would almost certainly have communicated telepathically with something by now.

    An Uvuudaum - that confusion aura is passive, and the MitD is simply not displaying that.

    In short, the Hunting Horror is the only FBS candidate that is using every power it can beg, borrow, or steal just to keep up with the plot.

    (Footnote: The CoC book spends several paragraphs discouraging the DM from using the printed spell name for spells. All spells should be renamed to suit the plot, even to the point of the same spell having more than one name based on its source. So if Word of Recall is renamed Escape, the MitD is calling out the name of the spell it's casting just like we would expect.)

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    Default Re: MitD 007: GoldenEyes (Please Read the First Post)

    I don't really know that much about the other FBS entries (I'm not really that into D&D, never had the chance to try it out so far ), I don't see the Hunting Horror as a strong candidate:

    • The weakness (and taking damage) against (sun)-light seems just not really valid to me. Even if it takes an hour to kill him, if he takes damage it would be rather odd that he wants to go to the light. Even with Regeneration it just doesn't look like something someone wants to do. (Most people avoid direct contact with fire/hot things, even if it doesn't do permanent damage in certain doses).
    • The whole learning spell things (which rather seems like it is required for the Escape) imo just doesn't fit the "digs deep and discovers powers that he didn't even know he had in order to save him". Because if he learned the spell sometime, how does it comes he doesn't know about it?
    • "Goblins have no sanity score and never make sanity checks". Is this some sort of rule? Or where comes this from? Because I don't see a reason why they shouldn't have a sanity score. (Though it could be argued that they have seen recently enough of the MitD to not need another sanity check)

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    Default Re: MitD 007: GoldenEyes (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tubercular Ox View Post
    Suggestion - Perhaps this is how he convinces Xykon not to face the Order of the Stick.
    Liches are immune to mind-affecting stuff. It's possible that it was part of the reason that Redcloak couldn't counter-argue very well, though.
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    First, I'm impressed that this topic went so far off topic that it ended up back at The Order of the Stick.
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    Default Re: MitD 007: GoldenEyes (Please Read the First Post)

    More likely, it was because Xykon didn't believe the Monster, but saw a relevant point and a way to annoy Redcloak, and so took it.
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    Default Re: MitD 007: GoldenEyes (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by Loreweaver15 View Post
    More likely, it was because Xykon didn't believe the Monster, but saw a relevant point and a way to annoy Redcloak, and so took it.
    Utterly certain - I believe we have Word of Author saying as much.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tubercular Ox View Post
    Another perspective is that the Hunting Horror fills the niche so neatly that it forces some uncomfortable questions on the other FBS candidates, chief among them being, "Why are they not displaying their full capabilities?"
    He hasn't dig deep for them yet.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tubercular Ox View Post
    Darkness - he has had no need of this yet, but if I felt ornery I could propose that the hell kitty umbrella is a magic feather that channels his darkness SLA. He's under mind control, after all.
    No, he isn't. We know precisely what his compulsion orders are, and they do not involve the umbrella.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tubercular Ox View Post
    An athasian Nightmare Beast, why has he never demonstrated his at will planar ally, or his 3/day dispel magic, despite the numerous situations when he really wanted something that could have used one of those powers? O-Chul's captivity (not the escape) probably had several opportunities where a timely dispel magic could have won him some monopoly money
    The same can be said about Xykon's powers. OotS characters seldom use the most optimised powers. Double for MitD, who isn't even aware of them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tubercular Ox View Post
    A protean, why does he struggle to do anything?
    Lazy. Also, because of world of cardboard syndrome.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tubercular Ox View Post
    Why can he not see through magical darkness?
    Darvision cannot penetrate magical darkness (unlike, say, blindsense)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tubercular Ox View Post
    Why is pushing easier than pulling?
    Because pushing can be done with a pulsating mutating body, while pulling requires him to concentrate into growing an appendage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tubercular Ox View Post
    Why does he have to rock his box to get to the food?
    I don't understand this question. Why wouldn't he? YOu mean, as opposed to leaving the cage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tubercular Ox View Post
    A carbosilicate amorph. Wow, this is a real testament to the fairness of this thread. Someone's going to have to pitch in here, I'm not qualified to talk on the amorph's abilities.
    Strong, ugly, can change shapes but not colour, can eat anything. He fits fairly well, by the numbers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tubercular Ox View Post
    A slaad, it would almost certainly have communicated telepathically with something by now.
    Again, not if he is not aware of what he can do. WHich by word of author we know to be the case.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tubercular Ox View Post
    An Uvuudaum - that confusion aura is passive, and the MitD is simply not displaying that.
    Stones and glass houses. The Hunting Horror is also not constantly displaying the stench aura - Haley makes no mention of it and, more unlikely, neither did Belkar.

    Finally, a word of caution about this line of thought: I am strongly against matching suggestions against each other, since it is a pointless exercise. That is not what the FBS list is for, or what it means.

    -------

    I'm hoping this afternoon I will have the time to do the refresh. Depending on how it goes, I may not update the Hunting Horror - I'd rather wait until the conversation is over and the dust settles. My current position is that the escape is not properly explained, because the call for Cthulhu's help takes too long, and the other spells are external, not internal, to the HH (see ChristianSt post for the details), but I am also aware that the HH has the support to override me on this. This is an issue, in that I would need to write up a new version, even though I disagree with it, and when that has happened in the past, I tend to struggle with the words. I'd ask Tubercular Ox to do it, but he has even worse problems than I do with keeping posts short, and the OP needs to be crisper than that (if nothing else, because I'm already pushing against word limits in two of the posts).

    In any case, give me a few hours (again, and I apologise for the delay. I had to work very late yesterday)

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    Default Re: MitD 007: GoldenEyes (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_wolf_c
    Finally, a word of caution about this line of thought: I am strongly against matching suggestions against each other, since it is a pointless exercise. That is not what the FBS list is for, or what it means.
    Wow, you just killed an entire post. I'm grateful I saw this in time.

    But my point wasn't that the objections can't be answered... in fact maybe I was being disingenuous, since I saw all those explanations even as I was writing the post... the point was that the objections exist to be answered. I still think it's significant that we've seen clues for nearly his full power list at this point. I'm starting to think the rope scene is critically important simply because of how his printed sla list explains his dialog so well.

    I really need to bow out here. Let the record show that this is extremely difficult for me because I do have reasonable explanations for at least some of the questions still out there. But I've made my best arguments, and my goal has to be just to get him updated on the FBS list.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c
    I'd ask Tubercular Ox to do it, but he has even worse problems than I do with keeping posts short, and the OP needs to be crisper than that (if nothing else, because I'm already pushing against word limits in two of the posts).
    A challenge!
    For reference:
    This category groups ideas that fit the clues in the major scenes of MitD, with the following characteristics (as per thread consensus):
    1) Has a plausible explanation for the Escape
    2) Has a plausible explanation for the Tower (both his attack and his defence)
    3) Has a plausible explanation for the Circus (both his act, and the reactions)
    4) Isn't one of the impossible categories (unless it is an exception)
    5) Existed before strip #100 in a form accessible to Rich.
    6) Size no bigger than Huge ("fits in the box")
    7) Is vulnerable to mind-affecting effects (SoD)

    Pros:
    • Printed in Call of Cthulhu, published March, 2002
    • CR 20 Dragon
    • Variant Word of Recall, no touch requirement, sanctuary named at time of casting.
    • 34 Str
    • Access to Deflect Harm SLA grants immunity to physical attacks
    • Circus scene
      • Inflicts sanity losses that variably disturb, upset, compel a reaction, or force into denial its viewers
      • Goblins are exempt from normal sanity rules
      • Nausea aura sickens
      • Cha 21
      • DC 30 Arcana check to recognize.
      • Imported from CoC setting, so rare
    • Vulnerable to mind control, eats, sleeps, breathes, plausibly a child.
    • Haunts the dark places in the universe
    • A roar attack
    • Shock Wave feat
    • Control Weather
    • Devour whole and spit things out after
    • Has a tail-tentacle and grabs with its mouth, but also has SLA's that make pushing easier than pulling, and tricky to hold and move at the same time.
    • Rarely speaks, understands speech
    • A ravenous maw. Dragons eat anything but are often finicky
    • Many powers give it ability damage, may be causing sleepiness.


    Cons:
    • Shock Wave is a variant feat
    • Uses spells not in its stat block, but printed rules allow it to learn spells
    Wow, that's as short as I can make. I invite someone else to finish the Con section. Feel free to delete lines that aren't needed to keep it on the FBS list. Most of those I left in there because they're already there, or they're on the list for other FBS candidates.

    Edit: argh, I can't resist. The Escape scene has some stringent requirements. As written, neither Greater Teleport nor Plane Shift meets all of them, but you're willing to accept them as valid. Clearly, you guys have spent years discussing plausible rulings, and I've never been a part of that. I'm afraid to jump into any discussion on the escape scene without all that background knowledge -- it'll bore you to tears because you've almost certainly heard it all before. So, open plea, someone, anyone, step in on this. DaggerPen?
    Last edited by Tubercular Ox; 2014-03-12 at 09:46 AM.

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    Default Re: MitD 007: GoldenEyes (Please Read the First Post)

    Is there a reason we're seriously considering an Amorph? Are Rich and Howard friends or something that would account for it being seriously considered, or is it just a silly suggestion that's being inexplicably treated seriously?
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    Default Re: MitD 007: GoldenEyes (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by Loreweaver15 View Post
    Is there a reason we're seriously considering an Amorph? Are Rich and Howard friends or something that would account for it being seriously considered, or is it just a silly suggestion that's being inexplicably treated seriously?
    In 2004, the web comic community was tight enough that it's plausible Rich was in contact with any arbitrary web comic author.

    Also, per Grey_wolf_c's glass houses comment, the biggest reason to reject the amorph is copyright, and no one wants to lower the boom on copyright requirements. He stays because kicking him out would do more than rock the boat... the whole thing could capsize.
    Last edited by Tubercular Ox; 2014-03-12 at 10:12 AM.

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    Default Re: MitD 007: GoldenEyes (Please Read the First Post)

    I don't think listing Shockwave feat should be a pro. I think it should be a Con "Can't explain the escape without modifying the creature by giving it the shockwave feat", or not mentioned at all, as he might just be strong enough with Rich's drawing, to not need it.

    Cons (parenthetical stuff is my commentary on it):
    Word of Recall (don't know CoC, so variant might not) requires being able to touch the creature.
    Without use of deflect harm, defense isn't great, with fast healing 10, DR 5/+1, and AC 19.
    Damaged by light (though it explains why he is hiding in bushes and stuff in the jungle).
    No real evidence that goblins are exempt from normal sanity rules, or sanity rules are being used.

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    Default Re: MitD 007: GoldenEyes (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tubercular Ox View Post
    I still think it's significant that we've seen clues for nearly his full power list at this point.
    I think you're being a little over-confident here. The MitD is constantly shrouded in darkness. We can infer what he's doing from the results he creates and the sound effects, but we virtually never get to see him do anything. And, as we've learned over the years, different people can interpret this data is *very* different ways.

    Reiterating and expanding upon what GWc implies, *every* candidate has massive flaws, particularly if you go down the Giant-disapproved path of expecting the characters to operate optimally. Trying to rank order these very flawed candidates is an exercize in potentially dramatic futility, because they're flawed in different ways, the relative importance of which is impossible to get consensus upon.

    Plus, its besides the point. The FBS, per its name, is not a list of the "best" candidates.

    Rather, the community decided to increase the structure around the solving the puzzle by picking a few specific clues and measuring candidates against those specific clues. We tried to pick the clues we felt were the clearest and most concrete, the ones a candidate could be most easily judged "yea or nay" against, and the few that managed to get at least a "kinda-yea" on all of them got included on the FBS list.

    But, again, this doesn't necessarily make them the best candidates, just the ones that best fit the particular clues we decided to prioritize. Up until the most recent re-vamp of the list, there were FBS candidates that were almost certainly less likely to be correct than some non-FBS candidates (the gigantic worm thing whose name escapes me vs the Zodar, for example). That's mostly fixed now, but its a potential flaw in the system, yet this is still the best system we've been able to come up with.
    Last edited by Crusher; 2014-03-12 at 10:25 AM.
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    Default Re: MitD 007: GoldenEyes (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tubercular Ox View Post
    Edit: argh, I can't resist. The Escape scene has some stringent requirements. As written, neither Greater Teleport nor Plane Shift meets all of them, but you're willing to accept them as valid. Clearly, you guys have spent years discussing plausible rulings, and I've never been a part of that. I'm afraid to jump into any discussion on the escape scene without all that background knowledge -- it'll bore you to tears because you've almost certainly heard it all before. So, open plea, someone, anyone, step in on this. DaggerPen?
    To (Greater) Teleport: I don't see any problem with Greater Teleport. I assume your objection it is the part that it doesn't feature the "off target" part to explain why O-Chul and V arrived by the fleet. The Greater Teleport on SRD says "This spell functions like teleport, except that there is no range limit and there is no chance you arrive off target.". So written as it is I think it is valid to make an argument that it doesn't say you arrive on target, so the other categories (so maybe it was a Similar Area instead). On top of that it also features "In addition, you need not have seen the destination, but in that case you must have at least a reliable description of the place to which you are teleporting." It is not quite clear what a "reliable description of the the place" is, but I assume that a DM could greenlight the description "to O-Chul's paladin buddies".

    To Plane Shift: I don't really like the explanation given in the OP (that another entity shifted them after arriving somewhere else). But if I recall correctly (not 100% sure on that part), I think someone stated in a discussion on Laurin's Wormhole power that it also RAW only another plane. If that is the case it would give is a valid reason to assume Plane Shift works the same way.

    To Word of Recall: The problem there imo isn't the part that you choose your designation when you prepare the spell, but that the designation must be some kind of sanctuary, i.e. a place the MitD would need to be very familiar with it. I don't see any argument for why the MitD should be familiar with the place the paladins were at that moment. Or is there a version that specifies it can be a location he is unfamiliar with?



    To your write-up: I think the pushing/pulling thing doesn't need to be there. I would assume for pretty much any being it should be easier to push things (only requiring to slam/lean your body against something) than to pull things (requiring to grab something somehow and then leaning your body in the other direction without letting that thing go).

    Also I don't understand why Shock Wave is listed as a pro and con (as a variant feat). To that, what exactly means variant feat?
    • If it is a feat that the Hunted Horror just has I would just say it is a pro.
    • If it is a feat from somewhere that he has to learn, I would list is only as a con (if it is the only explanation for the scene).
    • If it is something that another book applies to all (and not just the majority of) dragons but is not in the normal Hunted Horror writeup, that is somewhat a grey area imo.


    And imo it should really list somewhere in the cons the vulnerability against (sun-)light. Because whether or not the MitD would survive for an hour in sunlight, it still should cause enough slow pain to not want him to be in there.

    Also a Control Weather isn't necessary since there is no indication that MitD has something to do with the rain. I would assume that it is merely a call back to O-Chul's past statement about rain. And not something caused by MitD.
    Last edited by ChristianSt; 2014-03-12 at 10:26 AM.

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    Default Re: MitD 007: GoldenEyes (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by rweird View Post
    I don't think listing Shockwave feat should be a pro. I think it should be a Con "Can't explain the escape without modifying the creature by giving it the shockwave feat", or not mentioned at all, as he might just be strong enough with Rich's drawing, to not need it.
    I did include "it's an alternate feat" as a con. Feel free to reword one or both entries. "Qualifies for shock wave" as a pro? "Shock wave is not standard" as a con? And it's for the stomp scene, not the escape scene.

    Quote Originally Posted by rweird View Post
    Cons (parenthetical stuff is my commentary on it):
    Word of Recall (don't know CoC, so variant might not) requires being able to touch the creature.
    Correct, the CoC version does not have a touch requirement.

    Quote Originally Posted by rweird View Post
    Without use of deflect harm, defense isn't great, with fast healing 10, DR 5/+1, and AC 19.
    Damaged by light (though it explains why he is hiding in bushes and stuff in the jungle).
    No real evidence that goblins are exempt from normal sanity rules, or sanity rules are being used.
    These seem fine. The Creatures chapter in CoC explicitly says creatures do not have sanity scores nor make sanity checks unless noted otherwise, which is why I keep wording it that way, and the appendix makes it clear that CoC considers Goblins creatures and not characters, but we start getting into arguments over how evenly Rich is applying the conversion and/or sanity rules, and IMO we can skip all that because there is no outcome to that argument that would change the line you've already written.

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    Default Re: MitD 007: GoldenEyes (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tubercular Ox View Post
    These seem fine. The Creatures chapter in CoC explicitly says creatures do not have sanity scores nor make sanity checks unless noted otherwise, which is why I keep wording it that way, and the appendix makes it clear that CoC considers Goblins creatures and not characters, but we start getting into arguments over how evenly Rich is applying the conversion and/or sanity rules, and IMO we can skip all that because there is no outcome to that argument that would change the line you've already written.
    On sanity, we're all in the monsters manual, (excepts for humans). Having not read the Start of Darkness, did only humans react strangely to it (besides vomiting, though I believe it has a nauseating aura)? If so, I think that mentioning that would be a pro.

    What is CoC's Word of Recall's range?

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    Default Re: MitD 007: GoldenEyes (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tubercular Ox View Post
    I really need to bow out here.
    Awww. Please don't. You are reasonable to talk to. I like reasonable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tubercular Ox View Post
    Wow, that's as short as I can make. I invite someone else to finish the Con section.
    Thank you. That is a start. I'll probably steal from it a lot when I do update. I should be able to take care of the cons.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tubercular Ox View Post
    As written, neither Greater Teleport nor Plane Shift meets all of them, but you're willing to accept them as valid.
    Greater Teleport yes, Plane Shift no. Plane Shift requires them to stop on the way and get help (miracle-level) to get to the right place. None of that has been shown in the comic, and its too much detail missing - same issue I have with Cthulhu rewriting time, really.

    Greater Teleport, on the other hand, just requires a bit of bending of the "can't fail" clause to say it automatically goes to to the closest valid place, rather than outright fail, when you are sent somewhere impossible.

    ----

    Edit: Also, anyone seriously objects to keeping the HH in FBS? Please PM me (Edit: or post, if you have something more to say than "I'm opposed", of course) if you do. I'm currently leaning to keep it due to inertia, but I'm quite ambivalent over its escape explanation (admittedly, I have not looked deeply into the alternatives suggested).

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    Last edited by Grey_Wolf_c; 2014-03-12 at 10:42 AM.
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    Default Re: MitD 007: GoldenEyes (Please Read the First Post)

    Crusher, I'm choosing not to answer you because I agree with everything you said. I'm chastened.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChristianSt View Post
    To (Greater) Teleport:
    That's what I mean. It requires touch, it requires a description of the place, but we're accepting that Rich doesn't care about touch and that Rich accepts "Hinjo" as a place. So apply that to the Word of Recall, and we come down to the argument, "How could the MitD become very familiar with Hinjo?" There are ways, all requiring more or less Rich fiat, but it would take forever if I have to fumble over every little argument you guys have already had a dozen times. And since, just like with Greater Teleport, we're instantly into house rule territory, it's a "clap if you believe" scenario.

    (Also, I keep reading and researching, so I always pop up with new ideas, such as: pg 130, the same page that says "Never use the same name for a spell twice" full stop, says "it is common for spells to be found with slightly different parameters and GMs can modify these spells slightly (or dramatically) for effect." The escape scene is all about being dramatic. But even I can see how that's an unsatisfying explanation, so it wouldn't actually change his FBS entry.

    Just to be formal, I could propose a Word of Recall spell renamed to 'Escape' that is altered to let one of its targets name the sanctuary, and to let the caster exclude itself as a target. Why not? It's a wide open rule. CoC is not fair.)

    Quote Originally Posted by ChristianSt View Post

    Also I don't understand why Shock Wave is listed as a pro and con (as a variant feat). To that, what exactly means variant feat?
    If it is a feat from somewhere that he has to learn, I would list is only as a con (if it is the only explanation for the scene).
    Since it seems people would accept 34 str as an alternate explanation for the stomp, we can drop it.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChristianSt View Post
    To your write-up: I think the pushing/pulling thing doesn't need to be there.
    And imo it should really list somewhere in the cons the vulnerability against (sun-)light.
    Also a Control Weather isn't necessary since there is no indication that MitD has something to do with the rain.
    Good ideas. They cut the length significantly.

    Quote Originally Posted by rweird
    What is CoC's Word of Recall's range?
    It is listed as unlimited. My personal opinion is that the authors were unclear on how ranges worked, but RAW not only can he teleport himself anywhere he's very familiar with (per the effect text), but he can teleport anyone he knows to him, since his current location probably qualifies as very familiar. And if we're going to bend the rules on Greater Teleport's touch range, bending the rules on a poorly written "unlimited" range should be even easier.
    Last edited by Tubercular Ox; 2014-03-12 at 10:58 AM.

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    Default Re: MitD 007: GoldenEyes (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tubercular Ox View Post
    It requires touch, it requires a description of the place, but we're accepting that Rich doesn't care about touch and that Rich accepts "Hinjo" as a place.
    Not quite. We in this thread don't need to assume that it doesn't require touch - we have ample canon proof that teleports in OotS don't. Now, the assumption is that WoR follows the same "no touch" rule as teleport, but that is indeed an assumption since we have no canon proof of that (the two WoR we have seen did not attempt to carry anyone). I'm fine with that assumption, but others, it seems, are not.

    I don't think anyone has said that Hinjo is a place, only that "teleport to your friends" automatically fails, and (regular) rolls in the random destination table, gets plot-induced lucky, and places them in a similar place, while the greater version doesn't even roll, just goes to a similar palce automatically.

    WoR, on the other hand, doesn't have a random destination table, and Hinjo's position in space and time changes between comics, since they are on a boat, so any previous mental contact of his position is invalid by the time the Escape scene happens, since he has just been mass-teleported by V to a place Hinjo has never been to before.

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    Default Re: MitD 007: GoldenEyes (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    WoR, on the other hand, doesn't have a random destination table, and Hinjo's position in space and time changes between comics, since they are on a boat, so any previous mental contact of his position is invalid by the time the Escape scene happens, since he has just been mass-teleported by V to a place Hinjo has never been to before.

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    Does the emotional link b/w Hinjo and Mr Stiffy(because I forget his name!) have anything to do with directing the spell to Hinjo? You know what I mean? Maybe the fact that Mr Stiffy has such a strong bond to Hinjo, that helps the magic take them there. Just an idea I had.

    Of course, no real way to prove that or anything.
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    Default Re: MitD 007: GoldenEyes (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    we have ample canon proof that teleports in OotS don't [require touch].
    This and other events are ample canon proof that Rich bends the rules to service drama.
    • Teleport does not require touch
    • Control Weather does sonic damage
    • The stomp effect -- whether pure strength, the shock wave feat, or the other feat that Tramplers use -- does more collateral damage than it really should
    • It's unlikely the MitD has the stats and feats necessary to do the tower scene strictly by the rules
    • Lord help me there must be more. My mind's stuck in MitD mode right now


    And here is a Word of Recall variant which the rules require he rename, and encourage him to fiddle with the exact parameters if it improves the drama. How much more get out of jail free would Rich need at this point?

    The spirit of the spell remains: It helps a target escape to a casting-time designated sanctuary, which fits the drama of the scene better than Greater Teleport used creatively.
    Last edited by Tubercular Ox; 2014-03-12 at 11:24 AM.

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    Default Re: MitD 007: GoldenEyes (Please Read the First Post)

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Also, anyone seriously objects to keeping the HH in FBS? Please PM me (Edit: or post, if you have something more to say than "I'm opposed", of course) if you do. I'm currently leaning to keep it due to inertia, but I'm quite ambivalent over its escape explanation (admittedly, I have not looked deeply into the alternatives suggested).
    From what I heard I don't like the escape (and think that the light-vulnerability is a major drawback). But since I don't think it changes anything on what I actually think about it, I don't really care whether is in the FBS or not. It is not that it says anything really valuable - it pretty much only says that it (somehow) can explain the big scenes. And I think if enough people argue for it, it is enough - since from certain POVs pretty much all FBS-candidates need at least some kind of help (like loose rules etc.) to get there.


    @Tubercular Ox:

    To the house-rule thing on Teleport: yes we do need house-rules (the target thing), but we know that this thing is explicitly used (as in Teleport in-comic doesn't need touch). Using a certain house-rule that we know is in use is something different than to make up unknown house-rules and apply them. Or do we require any unknown house-rules for (Greater) Teleport to work?

    Yes to require that "O-Chul's paladin buddies" is a valid description is maybe troublesome - but Greater Teleport can explicitly Teleport to an unknown location, if the description is a reliable description of that place. It is debatable whether a group of person is a description to a place. Also how it is written it is still maybe just a "Similar Area" of something the MitD recalled. Both of this is much easier to argument for than the familiarity of a sanctuary (which imo has to be a place and not a person). Unless there is a World of Recall version not needing a sanctuary.

    I have no problem with declaring "O-Chul's paladin buddies" (or maybe O-Chul's ruler/boss/employer to make it impossible that an equal amount of buddies are in different places) as a reliable description of a place. Since it just is a description to a specific place - though that place changes over time. (The argument I see whether a place can be defined through a person, but I think that should be possible. As I think it should be possible to Teleport onto a ship. Which is also not really a place but a moving object.) And even when that isn't valid there is still the fallback to "Similar Area" which can basically explain any location.

    But saying "MitD is familiar with this random place or the paladin he has maybe seen once" is for me just an unbelievable stretch, because there is nothing indicating anything of that. And more so: you can't get over with it with a bit rules fumbling, but you need a clear explanation of why he is familiar with that location.

    To the Word of Recall self-made Escape-variant: While it is certainly possible to argue with self-made spells or the like, it isn't any more realistically guessable than random templates. Because with such things you can basically turn any thing to pass all MitD scenes.

    I actually don't think that the touch requirement of WoR is a problem at all. Especially since they are often not used for similar stuff like Teleport.

    And on top of that: It stills require the MitD to learn spells. Which imo just doesn't fit with "dig deep" quote - or have you arguments for why it does fit? (Or am I reading your suggestion wrong that it doesn't need to learn it it the first place.)


    But as I said I don't really have any objection to let it stay in the FBS. Though from what I read here I wouldn't be really satisfied if the MitD turns out to be a Hunted Horror. Also Grey Wolf, me or others disagreeing with you doesn't make your opinion invalid/wrong and ours true. Just that we disagree and we don't have the same opinion. Hence the need to somehow find consensus what to list in which part of the OP. Since I don't really care if it is a FBS or a Proposed Idea, I'm fine with letting it there and just saying "I don't think it fits".



    Yes, maybe there are some kind house-ruling we lean on (especially the Strength/Tower/Stomp/Earthquake thing), but they all go basically in the same direction (over-dramatic display of physical strength, in the Tower scene even somewhat hinted at with the comically rule-of-funny shaped Miko and Windstriker shapes struck in the wall). It doesn't mean that we are correct on this. Maybe Rich is playing strictly RAW and there is a MitD-candidate that can exactly to this without bending rules. But I think no one has come close to that (most likely because it is kinda hard for Miko/Windstriker to survive the Tower scene otherwise).


    EDIT: Yes, OotS features heavy uses of house-ruling/homebrew. But if we need to apply too much of it, without getting hints or demonstration of what is house-ruled and what not, the MitD imo stops being guessable. Since Rich says it is guessable that imo prevents us from adding random stuff (templates, house-rules, homebrew, etc) to any MitD-candidate unless there is a solid explanation why it is there (for example some lampshade hanging, seeing that the same house-rule is applied in other similiar cases, etc). It could certainly be that some explanation of such facts are yet unknown to us. Maybe Rich will show that MitD has in fact a sunlight-vulnerability (which actually would make the HH one of the best fits we have so far). But we imo shouldn't argue with things Rich might show us in the future.
    Last edited by ChristianSt; 2014-03-12 at 11:54 AM.

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