MitD 007: GoldenEyes (Please Read the First Post)

[Tubercular Ox]

For example I could also say that he is a experienced DM and knows that WoR is not "somewhere safe" but to a familiar sanctuary.

And I could say that an experienced DM knows that Greater Teleport is touch only, takes you to a place, not a person, and doesn't have a somewhere similar clause.

It's the disparity that bothers me, not the absolute value. It's fine if there's doubt about him, it's not fine that he's taken off the FBS list because Word of Recall is dodgy, but there isn't a single mention of how flagrantly against the rules a use of Greater Teleport would be to fit the circumstances -- to the contrary, it's implied that's one of the better solutions -- I had to look it up to see what it really did.

To me, Teleport and Greater Teleport are just as flagrant a violation of the RAW as Word of Recall in this circumstance, and Word of Rich is the only way to explain the problems with any of them. Except, of course, that the Mythos Word of Recall has a printed get out of jail free card, and the others don't.

So if the argument ends here, that's fine, but either the argument ends with the HH on the FBS list fair and square (no "inertia" dodge), or with practically all the other critters removed. The carbosilicate amorph is still plausible.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

And I could say that an experienced DM knows that Greater Teleport is touch only

You keep bringing up the touching clause. I'm sorry, but that is just not appropriate, and if you are unwilling to remember arguments, I cannot help you.

Grey Wolf

[ChristianSt]

And I could say that an experienced DM knows that Greater Teleport is touch only, takes you to a place, not a person, and doesn't have a somewhere similar clause.

To the touch: as previously said: we know that OotS uses Teleport without requiring touch. Without that yes, Teleport wouldn't work. But that isn't the case.

The other is debatable. You think it is dodgy. I think it is not.


The thread consensus is that (Greater) Teleport fits. I don't know what the thread consensus on WoR is right now. But if it should be "it fits not", then there isn't anything you could do about that. Should it be "it fits" Grey Wolf will not ignore that.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I don't know what the thread consensus on WoR is right now. But if it should be "it fits not", then there isn't anything you could do about that. Should it be "it fits" Grey Wolf will not ignore that.

There isn't one, since no creature ever proposed has used it to explain the escape. No, not even HH, who uses a CoC WoR base, and then modifies it beyond recognition. From "takes you to a well known location to the caster" to "takes a target to a person they know". At that point, it really is closer to teleport in its effects than it is to WoR.

Grey Wolf

[Crusher]

Wow...

My copy of CoC is 3rd edition Chaosism from 1986. I knew it was old but didn't realize it was *that* old. DOn't think it'll add much value.

[Tubercular Ox]

From "takes you to a well known location to the caster" to "takes a target to a person they know". At that point, it really is closer to teleport in its effects than it is to WoR.

Grey Wolf

That is substantially the same transformation Greater Teleport has taken -- from "takes you to a place you know the description of" to "takes a target to a person they know"

Yes it can be pleaded. My whole point is that it can be pleaded, the touch requirement is simply the most tangible representation of that: Rich has indicated that he doesn't care about the touch requirements on teleport spells.

I have faith in the board, and therefore I have faith that Rich has indicated that he cares so little for how teleport is written that he is willing to use Greater Teleport to perform as necessary to explain the escape scene. I need this evidence to exist, because until I start having more good ideas, my argument hinges on the absurdity of the assumption that whatever evidence Rich has presented, and whatever logic the board has used, to twist Greater Teleport to serve its purposes, cannot also be used for the exact same effect on Word of Recall: A relaxing of effect requirements that allows an otherwise tightly worded teleportation effect to send O Chul and V to Hinjo. Nothing else.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

That is substantially the same transformation Greater Teleport has taken -- from "takes you to a place you know the description of" to "takes a target to a person they know"

That is not the argument. But I have explained it once already. I won't do it again. Also, it is disingenuous to claim that changing one part of the greater teleport to make it more like the regular teleport is the same as completely rewriting the target, effect and decision making of WoR.

Grey Wolf

[Tubercular Ox]

That is not the argument. But I have explained it once already. I won't do it again.

That's fine, I can quote you.

if the escape was going to depend on MitD having heard tales about the paladins, we would have heard more of O-Chul mentioning them than "I once belonged to a secret club that allowed girls". Sure, he may have told MitD more about it off-page (although a captured prisoner should really not blab about his secret organisation while in the clutches of the organisation's enemies, no matter how good the Good Cop is), but seems hard to believe that Rich would miss that foreshadowing chance.

So how is greater teleport working again? The MitD just wants O-Chul to be safe, so it's picking a location that looks similar to a location that O-Chul would be safe in?

[halfeye]

I may be missing something, or mentioning an irrelevance, but surely Vaarsuvius is the one whose mind provides the destination for the escape? S/He's just come from there.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

That's fine, I can quote you.

You quote my first attempt at understanding your WoR proposal, which I later refine and no longer use as if it had anything to do with the Greater Teleport explanation? Sorry, Tubercular, but that is too much. I will not be responding to you again.

I may be missing something, or mentioning an irrelevance, but surely Vaarsuvius is the one whose mind provides the destination for the escape? S/He's just come from there.

Interestingly, that has not been proposed for quite some time; mostly, the reason I believe is that MitD really has no particular reason to try to save V, he only cares about O-Chul. Sure, V may have the knowledge in his head, but MitD would not look for it there.

Grey Wolf

[Crusher]

So how is greater teleport working again?

Are you really considering:

"...you need not have seen the destination, but in that case you must have at least a reliable description of the place..."

and

"sanctuary, which is a very familiar location" (presumably in reference to the caster)

to be equivalent?

[Tubercular Ox]

You quote my first attempt at understanding your WoR proposal, which I later refine and no longer use as if it had anything to do with the Greater Teleport explanation?

Yes, that is exactly what I'm doing. Word of Recall and Greater Teleport are so similar, 99% of everything people say that isn't "read the exact text" applies equally to talking about Greater Teleport or Word of Recall. For example, where familiarity comes from.

Sorry, Tubercular, but that is too much. I will not be responding to you again.

I'm disappointed, of course, but I can live without a response. I would love it if Greater Teleport worked that way, because that would mean it's not such a stretch that Word of Recall could send them to a sanctuary without specifying which one.

I would also love it if that were not possible, because it would let me rely on the same arguments Greater Teleport is relying on to get information out of O-Chul and into the MitD for familiarity purposes.

I can see no reason Word of Recall can't piggy back on Greater Teleport to its eventual destination, either on the list or off it. Both ask you to put on coke bottle glasses and squint really hard, the only quibble is which eye you're choosing to squint.

[Tubercular Ox]

Are you really considering:

"...you need not have seen the destination, but in that case you must have at least a reliable description of the place..."

and

"sanctuary, which is a very familiar location" (presumably in reference to the caster)

to be equivalent?

No. However, I do consider "teleport to a safe place that doesn't exist failing into a teleport into something similar to a safe place" to be equivalent to "teleport to a sanctuary instead of to a known sanctuary."

Edit: Actually, I can piggy back on that too. What happens when you designate a sanctuary that doesn't exist, or doesn't exist anymore? Do you go to "someplace similar"?

[DaggerPen]

Interestingly, that has not been proposed for quite some time; mostly, the reason I believe is that MitD really has no particular reason to try to save V, he only cares about O-Chul. Sure, V may have the knowledge in his head, but MitD would not look for it there.

I am not sure that the teleport destination can have come from O-Chul. O-Chul knows Hinjo, but teleportation is based on location, not individuals, and O-Chul has never been or even heard of the place Hinjo and Lien were at time of teleportation, as the Azurites had literally just been transported there. We can maybe finagle "to Mr. Stiffly's friends" as a valid teleport destination, or we can have MitD get the location from Vaarsuvius somehow, but the location cannot have been gleaned from O-Chul. Out of everyone in that room, Vaarsuvius was the only one who knew where they'd just been and was familiar enough with the location for a teleport spell.

[Crusher]

Edit: Actually, I can piggy back on that too. What happens when you designate a sanctuary that doesn't exist, or doesn't exist anymore? Do you go to "someplace similar"?

No idea. I haven't seen the specific text of the spell. Since the spell requires the sanctuary to be somewhere the caster is very familiar with, I'd assume that designating somewhere that doesn't exist simply shouldn't be possible but I don't actually know.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

First Post Update

Added:
- Velociraptor (I really wish I would stop getting "joke" suggestions...)
- Laogzed
- Slime Child

Changes:
- Added 1st ed CHA to appearance
- Added neck to drawing clues
- Added "MitD has seen the Astral Plane before" to 1g
- Added Ganonron to 1c
- Removed plane shift from protean (it had been there since long before plane shift stopped being an acceptable escape explanation)
- Clarified that AMidah is not the only ridiculously broken way of giving Wish through templates in Immortal's Handbook.

Status: Complete

Edit: as is tradition, I open the floor to suggestions for the name of the next thread.

Suggestions:
MitD VIII: The Gate Gazes Also into You
MitD VIII: The Gate doesn't know you're there either
MitD VIII: The Gate Stares Into You
MitD 8: Maybe he has 8 Tentacles?
MitD VIII: Everything we know about MITD (but were afraid Tarrasque) (+4.5)
MitD VIII: "Maybe I'm two kobolds?"
MitD 8 stew, and porridge, but not babies (+1)
MitD VIII: Thar's no shadows! (+1)
MitD 8 the sandbox
I'm MitD the Eighth, I am, I am (+4)
Mitd 8: The Ocho

[Tubercular Ox]

No idea. I haven't seen the specific text of the spell. Since the spell requires the sanctuary to be somewhere the caster is very familiar with, I'd assume that designating somewhere that doesn't exist simply shouldn't be possible but I don't actually know.

And if he specifies a place that doesn't exist anymore? Dorukan's sanctum, for whatever godawful reason, as just one possible example.

Where I see this conversation heading is that on the subject of where to go when you designate a location that doesn't exist (anymore), the Mythos Word of Recall, which has no text on the topic (nor does the SRD word of recall, btw), must be presumed to fail completely, but when Greater Teleport, a spell with explicit text saying you go nowhere if you've picked a bad target, can be excused to behave like its little brother Teleport, because that's what Rich needs to happen.

[ReaderAt2046]

I just thought of something: a Rawhead Sidhe from The Dresden Files. Essentially, a rawhead is a faerie creature assembled out of meat and bones from slaughtered animals and dead humans. The Sidhe are the nobility of the fey, powerful and attractive.

Let's run through the scenes:

Circus: A rawhead looks like a giant golem made out of meat and bones, so pretty disgusting. However, it is established that the Sidhe are always "somehow...beautiful", even if the base specimens of their race are supremely ugly. Also, nothing much like a rawhead has been seen in OOTS, so that explains why nobody recognizes it.

Tower: Sidhe are extremely difficult to harm with anything other than cold iron or powerful magic, which I would guess to translate into OOTS rules as something around DR 10/cold iron or epic. In addition, rawheads are huge, so they have a boatload of Hp, and the sources seem to suggest some fast heal or regeneration on top of that. On the offensive side of things, they have the phenomenal strength common to supernatural nasties and are fierce combatants (in the books, one easily defeats what is essentially a minor god in canine form).

Escape: Like all Faerie creatures, rawheads have power to move through the Nevernever, and it's quite possible that a place in Azure City would be right next to Hinjo when moving things that way. Alternately, the Leansidhe and the Queens of Winter, as well as certain other powerful beings, have displayed access to point-to-point teleportation, and sending "Mr. Stiffly" to his friends would be well within this method of travel.

Misc:

1. This explains why he likes stew (big hefty chunks of meat) but doesn't eat babies (too small and bones too weak, they make bad building material).

2. The SBGH could have mistaken him for a flesh golem, since I'm pretty sure golems don't talk. For that matter, rawheads generally don't talk either.

3. About the right size (bigger than humans, but not that much bigger).

I was just rereading the first post and I noticed that this never got added to the list of proposed creatures. Was there a reason for that?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I was just rereading the first post and I noticed that this never got added to the list of proposed creatures. Was there a reason for that?

I sometimes skip copyrighted creatures when I'm editing the main proposal list (it is a pain to edit, since it is so large). Sorry - I'll add it straight away.

GW

[Crusher]

I sometimes skip copyrighted creatures when I'm editing the main proposal list (it is a pain to edit, since it is so large). Sorry - I'll add it straight away.

GW

Didn't someone figure out that its creation date was too recent?

[Bird]

MitD 8: The rift gazes also into you

Or else, shortened:

MitD 8: The Rift Gazes Also

(I'm going to do a bad thing and just explain it:

(1) Of course, there's the irony that the MitD fails to even recognize the rift, and
(2) the allusion to the first part of the Nietzsche quote I'm paraphrasing: "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster..." which is interesting when considering MitD's relationship with Team Evil & conversations with O-Chul.

Okay, it's not funny, but I like it.)

[MesiDoomstalker]

MitD 8: The rift gazes also into you

Or else, shortened:

MitD 8: The Rift Gazes Also

(I'm going to do a bad thing and just explain it:

(1) Of course, there's the irony that the MitD fails to even recognize the rift, and
(2) the allusion to the first part of the Nietzsche quote I'm paraphrasing: "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster..." which is interesting when considering MitD's relationship with Team Evil & conversations with O-Chul.

Okay, it's not funny, but I like it.)

Are you trying:

MitD 8: The Gate doesn't know you're there either

? Or maybe:

MitD 8: The Gate Stares Into You

If you want more direct reference.

Personal suggestion:

MitD 8: Maybe he has 8 Tentacles?

[Bird]

Are you trying:

MitD 8: The Gate doesn't know you're there either

? Or maybe:

MitD 8: The Gate Stares Into You

If you want more direct reference.

Personal suggestion:

MitD 8: Maybe he has 8 Tentacles?

Why did I put "rift" instead of "gate"? My brain isn't good. Thank you.

I'd amend my suggestion to "The Gate Gazes Also into You".

Your personal suggestion is funny.

[b_jonas]

IOut of everyone in that room, Vaarsuvius was the only one who knew where they'd just been and was familiar enough with the location for a teleport spell.

Her, Ganonron's spirit, and the sorcerer guy's spirit.

[Ron Miel]

Edit: as is tradition, I open the floor to suggestions for the name of the next thread.

"Everything we know about MITD (but were afraid tarasque)"

[Caractacus]

"Everything we know about MITD (but were afraid tarasque)"

[ChristianSt]

Where I see this conversation heading is that on the subject of where to go when you designate a location that doesn't exist (anymore), the Mythos Word of Recall, which has no text on the topic (nor does the SRD word of recall, btw), must be presumed to fail completely, but when Greater Teleport, a spell with explicit text saying you go nowhere if you've picked a bad target, can be excused to behave like its little brother Teleport, because that's what Rich needs to happen.

First of all: I think it doesn't help you to concentrate your effort to try to "tear down" Greater Teleport. (And I think your opinion that you think it is bogus has been noted. But other than you I haven't noticed anyone else troubled by it.)
It also doesn't help to keep drawing parallels between those spells that other people don't see.

More on Greater Teleport:

1. Maybe my argument "target location is where O-Chul's paladin buddies are" is a bad one. Maybe other people aren't convinced by it [Which is from what I see quite likely]. Repeating on an argument only one other poster is satisfied with, doesn't help you sway others.
2. The SRD Greater Teleport write up has imo some possibly inconsistencies opening some doors:
   

   This spell functions like teleport, except that there is no range limit and there is no chance you arrive off target. In addition, you need not have seen the destination, but in that case you must have at least a reliable description of the place to which you are teleporting. If you attempt to teleport with insufficient information (or with misleading information), you disappear and simply reappear in your original location. Interplanar travel is not possible.

   First it sates "there is no chance you arrive off target". But it doesn't really say whether that means "off target as in not on-target" or "off target as in off target in the table that was used with teleport". The explanation of attempt with insufficient information points a bit in the first direction (but even then it just is wrong: when there isn't any target all locations can be considered off-target. And from the description the spell doesn't do nothing, it makes a teleportation to the location you are already in).
3. I think this wasn't brought up, but with Greater Teleport's description it is even entirely valid that MitD by chance specified that location: From what we know of his past I don't really see any place MitD could really consider save for O-Chul [A forest where he got captured? A circus (which might have potential problems like paladin buddies, because circuses tend to be not in a fixed position) near a burned down village? The ruins of some castle? Xykon's home tower? Some hobgoblin camps along the road to Azure City?]. So he pretty much was forced to pick a random location. And why shouldn't be 523 miles north, 357 miles west from here a valid location for Greater Teleport? (Yes it would be be good to specify a bit more to prevent O-Chul appearing in the middle of a ocean, desert or volcano. But saying "The nearest non-catastrophic (or maybe non-volcano, non-desert, etc...) location near 523 miles north, 357 miles west from here" still seems like a 'reliable description'.

And none of these arguments can imo be applied to any version of WoR I have seen without massively bending the rules. [And I hope/think that will be the last I will post on (Greater) Teleport. Then as said: whether or not you think (Greater) Teleport works or not is pretty much irrelevant if the thread consensus is "(Greater) Teleport works".]
Your options are pretty much trying to convince the thread consensus to shift the other direction for (Greater) Teleport OR seeing whether the opinion on WoR is exactly on this side or the other. And I actually made the work to dig through the thread for opinions for WoR: Grey Wolf and me are against it, while you, DaggerPen and Joerg seem satisfied with it - I couldn't really find other people stating their opinion on it (though If I read it right I think Crusher's statements seems to point in the direction "he is skeptical that WoR fits". (Though after what was said I can't really understand DaggerPen's first statement "I think the CoC Word of Recall is basically the same as Teleport in main D&D for our purposes" Because a sanctuary is something completely different than a known (or even unknown when considering Greater Teleport) location while talking about Teleport.

But no matter how illogically or nonsensical it seems to me, currently the thread consensus seems to point to "(CoC?) WoR is a valid explanation for the Escape". [I'm not sure about the CoC - I basically can't see a difference between the SRD WoR and what I've heard of the CoC WoR other than that CoC spells have a free allowance for making changes.]




To Rawhead Sidhe and Crushers question: "Didn't someone figure out that its creation date was too recent?": I did a search and the Dresden Files Wiki mentions that Rawheads were first mentioned in Cold Days, released in 2012. (I can't make any claims whether that information is correct or maybe a Rawhead Sidhe appeared earlier or the needed Rawhead stuff appeared earlier without stating that is a Rawhead). So that basically just eliminates the possibility of MitD being a Rawhead Sidhe without looking further into it.



To thread title: I don't have a handy reference to the number at hand, but I just thought of:
MitD VIII: "Maybe I'm two kobolds?"

[ti'esar]

"Everything we know about MITD (but were afraid tarasque)"

I vote for this.

[rweird]

"Everything we know about MITD (but were afraid tarasque)"

I too support this for the time being.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

"Everything we know about MITD (but were afraid tarasque)"

This is my choice as well.

Grey Wolf