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    Firbolg in the Playground
     
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    Default Pathfinder Spellthief

    A player of mine wanted to use the spellthief for a Pathfinder game. But the RAW WotC spellthief sucks for a variety of reasons. So I dramatically rewrote it, keeping intent of the class, but making it much stronger and more versatile. I've playtested, and it's really fun. The class ability descriptions are a bit long and rules lawyer-ish to avoid abuse, but their function is very strait forward. You Backstab someone (melee only Sneak Attack, with nothing immune). As an Immediate Action you Steal a spell or ability. You keep that ability for long enough that it's useful and you don't have to worry about tracking duration. You can use stolen spells instead of charges to power spell trigger magic items (wands and staves). And you have a lot anti-caster abilities. This version was written for a Pathfinder game, but you could just as easily convert it to 3.5 just by changing the Skills.


    Pathfinder Spellthief




    {table=head]Level | BAB | Fort | Ref | Will | Special | Max spell lvl stolen
    1st | + 0 | + 0 | + 2 | + 2 | Backstab +1d6, Sense Magic, Steal Spell | 1st
    2nd | + 1 | + 0 | + 3 | + 3 | Steal Spell Effect, Spellgrace |
    3rd | + 2 | + 1 | + 3 | + 3 | Steal Charges | 2nd
    4th | + 3 | + 1 | + 4 | + 4 | Backstab +2d6, Mystic Senses |
    5th | + 3 | + 1 | + 4 | + 4 | Steal Ability | 3rd
    6th | + 4 | + 2 | + 5 | + 5 | Absorb Spell |
    7th | + 5 | + 2 | + 5 | + 5 | Backstab +3d6, Mystic Senses | 4th
    8th | + 6 | + 2 | + 6 | + 6 | Steal Ability |
    9th | + 6 | + 3 | + 6 | + 6 | Nondetection | 5th
    10th | + 7 | + 3 | + 7 | + 7 | Backstab +4d6, Mystic Senses |
    11th | + 8 | + 3 | + 7 | + 7 | Steal Ability | 6th
    12th | + 9 | + 4 | + 8 | + 8 | Bypass Wards |
    13th | + 9 | + 4 | + 8 | + 8 | Backstab +5d6, Mystic Senses | 7th
    14th | + 10 | + 4 | + 9 | + 9 | Steal Ability |
    15th | + 11 | + 5 | + 9 | + 9 | Dimensional Anchor | 8th
    16th | + 12 | + 5 | + 10 | + 10 | Backstab +6d6, Mystic Senses |
    17th | + 12 | + 5 | + 10 | + 10 | Steal Ability | 9th
    18th | + 13 | + 6 | + 11 | + 11 | Reflect Spell |
    19th | + 14 | + 6 | + 11 | + 11 | Backstab +7d6, X-Ray Vision |
    20th | + 15 | + 6 | + 12 | + 12 | Steal Essance |
    [/table]

    Hit Die: d8.

    Starting Gold: 4d4 x 10 gp.

    Class Skills: A spellthief's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Acrobatics (Dex), Appraise (Int), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Dex), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (all), Linguistics (Int), Perception (Wis), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Spellcraft (Int), Stealth (Dex), Swim (Str), and Use Magic Device (Cha).

    Skill Ranks per Level: 6 + Int modifier.

    Class Features:

    Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The Spellthief is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with light armor but not with shields.

    Backstab (Ex): The spellthief deals extra damage on any melee attack he makes against any creature which is flanked or denied their Dexterity bonus. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and increases by 1d6 every three levels thereafter. This bonus damage is never multiplied, and only occurs with melee attacks that deal lethal damage.

    Sense Magic (Su): The spellthief can sense any magical objects or auras, as if using the Detect Magic spell, but with a continuous duration. In addition, the spellthief can innately sense whether or not his Steal abilities (see below) would be useful against any creature within range of his ability to Detect Magic (60 feet, unless something blocks or negates the Detect Magic effect). He does not know what he can steal until he activates the respective ability, he only knows which abilities (if any) would be useful to attempt, so that no Steal attempt would ever be wasted. Finally, a spellthief can also use Disable Device to disarm magical traps.

    Steal Spell (Su): As an Immediate Action when the spellthief successfully hits and damages an opponent with his Backstab ability, he may also siphon off some of the magical energy away from his target and use it himself. If the target is willing, a spellthief can instead use the Steal Magic ability without dealing any damage with a touch as a Standard Action.

    Upon activating this ability, the spellthief automatically learns the names of all spells prepared or known by the target, if any. The spellthief may then choose any one of these spells to steal, but the maximum spell level of the stolen spell must be equal to or lower then the spellthief's class level divided by two, rounded up. (As noted on The Spellthief Table). The target loses that spell from their memory if she prepares spells ahead of time, or one use of the appropriate spell slot if she is a spontaneous caster. If the stolen spell is cast spontaneously (such as spells cast by a sorcerer, or a cantrip cast by any class), the caster also loses the ability to cast the stolen spell for 8 hours.

    After stealing a spell, a spellthief can cast the spell himself. Each stolen spell may only be cast once for each time it is stolen, and not repeatedly, even if it is a cantrip. Treat the spell as if it were cast by the original owner of the spell for the purpose of determining the casting time, caster level, save DC, and so forth. A spellthief can cast this spell even if he doesn't have the minimum ability score normally required to cast a spell of that level. The spellthief must supply the same components (including verbal, somatic, material, XP, and any focus) required for the stolen spell, though armor and shields do not impose any arcane spell failure chance.

    At any time, a spellthief can possess a maximum number of stolen spell levels equal to his spellthief class level (treat cantrips and any other 0-level spells as 1/2 level for this purpose). For instance, a 4th-level spellthief can have two stolen 2nd-level spells, or one 2nd level spell and two 1st level spells, or any other combination of 0 level, 1st level, and 2nd level spells totaling four levels. If he steals a spell that would cause him to exceed this limit, he must choose to lose stolen spells sufficient to reduce his total number of stolen spell levels to no more than his maximum. If a stolen spell is not used within 8 hours, it fades from the spellthiefs memory and is lost. A spellthief can't apply metamagic feats or other effects to the stolen spell unless the specific spell stolen was prepared with such an effect. (In which case it counts as a higher level spell, according to the appropriate level adjustment of the metamagic).

    Steal Spell Effect (Su): Starting at 2nd level, as an Immediate Action when the spellthief successfully hits and damages a creature with his Backstab ability, he may also steal the effect of a single ongoing spell affecting the target creature. If the target is willing, a spellthief can steal the effect of a single spell effecting the target with a touch as a Standard Action.

    Upon activating this ability, the spellthief automatically learns the names of all spells currently effecting the target creature. The spellthief may then choose any one of these spell effects to steal. The maximum spell level of the stolen spell effect must be equal to or lower than the spellthief's class level divided by two, rounded up. (Just like spells stolen with the Steal Spell ability).

    The target creature loses the remaining effect of the stolen spell effect, and the spellthief gains the effect of the stolen spell effect until the spell's remaining duration expires, up to a maximum of 1 hour. If the spell effect is harmful, then the spellthief is entitled to a Saving Throw if one would normally be allowed by the spell, as if it had originally targeted the spellthief. For example, if the spellthief uses Steal Spell Effect to remove Confusion spell effecting an ally, then the spellthief would be entitled to a Willpower Save to negate the effect on himself. A spellthief may not target himself with his own Steal Spell Effect ability in an attempt to resist the spell a second time.

    This ability only transfers any ongoing remaining effect of a spell, it does not heal previous damage or undo past effects of the spell. This ability cannot be used on spells with an Instantaneous duration. A spellthief can steal the effect of a spell only if the spell could be cast on him by the original caster. For example, a spellthief couldn't gain the effect of an Animal Growth spell unless the spellthief is of the animal type, or the effect of a Shield spell since that spell's range is personal. If a spellthief tries to steal the effect of a spell not allowed to him, the target still loses the spell effect (essentially dispelling it), but the spellthief gains nothing.

    Spellgrace (Ex): Starting at 2nd level, a spellthief adds 1 point of their Intelligence bonus (if any) per spellthief class level to their Armor Class, CMD, and any Saving Throw against spells, spell-like abilities, and magical traps.

    Steal Charges: Starting at 3rd level, as an Immediate Action when the spellthief successfully hits and damages a creature with his Backstab ability, he may also steal a spell from a scroll or spell trigger magic item that the target is holding. If you are holding an appropriate magic item yourself, you may steal a spell from it as a Standard Action.

    Upon activating this ability, the spellthief automatically learns the names of all spells that the creature can cast using the items that they are holding. The spellthief may then choose any one of these spells to steal. The targeted magic item loses whatever number of uses or charges would normally be required to cast the spell. The spellthief gains the spell as if they had successfully used their Steal Spell ability.

    You may only use this ability on a magic item with a limited, non-renewable, number of uses or charges (such as most scrolls, wands, and staffs). You cannot use this ability on magic items with renewable uses (X times per week/day/hour/etc) or unlimited uses (at-will). Spells stolen using this ability also have all of the same uses and restrictions of the Steal Spells ability. You cannot use this ability to steal a spell of a spell level that you cannot normally use Steal Spells on, it counts toward your maximum number of stolen spells, stolen spells fade within 8 hours, etc.

    In addition, you may also power a spell-trigger item with any currently stolen spell of equal or higher spell level, using the stolen spell in place of any magic items charges required to activate the item's spell. For example, if you have a stolen Fireball spell (regardless of whether it was stolen from a spellcaster or a magic item), then you may expend it to power a wand or stave for any one 3rd level or lower spell without using up a charge to trigger that spell. This ability allows you to bypass the normal magic item activation rules (having the appropriate spell on your spell list or making a Use Magic Device check), but only for the purpose of stealing spells or powering magic items with stolen spells.

    Mystic Senses (Sp): At 4th, 7th, 10th, 13th, 16th, levels, the spellthief gains one of the spell-like abilities from the list below. Some abilities have prerequisites, which are noted in their description:

    Each Mystic Sense gained is treated as a separate spell-like ability. (In case the spell-thief wishes to take a Feat which effects it, or in case another spellthief ever attempts to steal it). Each mystic sense may be used twice per day, and the spellthief gains one additional use of each spell-like ability every three levels thereafter. (Two at 4th level, three at 7th, four at 10th, five at 13th, and six at 16th ). For the purpose of these abilities, his a caster level equal to his spellthief class level, using his Intelligence to determine any saving throw required (if any).

    Steal Ability (Su): At 5th, 8th, 11th, 14th, and 17th levels, the spellthief gains one new type of ability that they can steal from creatures (or magic items that the creature is using), chosen from the list below. When the spellthief successfully hits and damages a creature with his Backstab ability, as an Immediate Action he may activate one of the Steal Ability options that he has chosen. If the target is willing, a spellthief can use Steal Ability on them with a touch as a Standard Action.

    • Steal Damage Reduction: All forms of damage reduction that the target possesses are reduced by the spellthief's class level for one hour. The spellthief gains damage reduction of the same types and amounts that he has stolen, up to a maximum value of the target's original damage reduction, for up to 1 hour.
    • Steal Energy Resistance: All forms of energy resistance that the target possesses are reduced by 10 + the spellthief's class level for one hour. If the creature has any energy immunities, then they now take the first 10 + spellthief class level points of damage from that energy type, and only have immunity to damage of that energy type beyond that number. In either case, the spellthief gains energy resistances of the same types and amount that he has stolen, up to a maximum value of the target's original energy resistances, for up to one hour.
    • Steal Summons: If the target hit and damaged by the Backstab exists on this plane as a result of magic (such as Summon Monster, Summon Nature's ally, Animate Undead, Animate Objects, a Summoner's Eidolon, a Paladin's Special Mount, or any similar magical ability, spell, spell-like ability, or supernatural ability) and is currently being controlled by another creature, then that control is lost for up to 5 minutes. The spellthief gains control of the target for 5 minutes as if he were the original summoner/caster. The spellthief may also choose to dismiss the target creature if it would normally be possible for the original summoner/caster to do so.
    • Steal Healing: Any form of healing or temporary hit points that the target receives for the next 5 minutes is instead applied to the spellthief. This includes fast healing, regeneration, healing from spells or other similar effects, healing from magic weapons, etc.
    • Steal Spell-Like Ability: Upon activating this ability, the spellthief automatically learns the names of all spell-like abilities that the target creature has, and how many uses (if any) each has remaining. The spellthief may then choose any one of these spell-like abilities to steal. The spellthief may not steal a spell-like ability with a caster level higher then his spellthief class level. The target loses the selected spell-like ability for 5 minutes, and the spellthief gains the ability for 5 minutes. If the spell-like ability has a limited number of uses, then the spellthief likewise limited by whatever amount is remaining, and consumed uses do not return to the original creature. If the spell-like ability duplicates a spell with that has an expensive material component (over 1 gp or any amount of xp), then the spellthief must provide such components in order to use the spell-like ability.
    • Steal Supernatural Ability: Upon activating this ability, the spellthief automatically learns the names of all supernatural abilities that the target creature has. The spellthief may then choose any one of these supernatural abilities to steal. The spellthief may not steal a supernatural ability from a creature with hit dice greater then his spellthief class level. The target loses this supernatural ability for 5 minutes, and the spellthief gains the ability for 5 minutes. If the supernatural ability duplicates a spell with that has an expensive material component (over 1 gp or any amount of xp), then the spellthief must provide such components in order to use the supernatural ability.
    • Steal Spell Resistance (Su): The target's spell resistance is reduced by 5 for one hour. The spellthief gains spell resistance equal to 5 + their spellthief class level, up to a maximum value of the target's original spell resistance, for one hour.


    Each Steal Ability gained is treated as a separate supernatural ability. (In case the spell-thief wishes to take a Feat which effects it, or in case another spellthief ever attempts to steal it). If any stolen ability comes from any temporary effect (such as a spell or a magic item with a limited duration), then the spellthief automatically loses it when the remaining duration expires, regardless of how long he could have stolen it for (the durations listed above). For example, if the spellthief uses Steal Energy Resistance on a target with Fire Resistance 10 for 3 rounds remaining from a spell, then it expires after 3 rounds, and not 1 hour. If the spellthief uses the same Steal Ability multiple times, only the most recent use of it applies. The previous stolen ability is lost and returns to the original creature that possessed it. Thus, the spellthief may only possess one of each stolen ability at any given time (one stolen Damage Rection, one stolen Energy Resistance, one stolen spell-like ability, etc) and multiple uses of the same Steal Ability never stack. If the spellthief steals an ability of the same exact type that they already possess from any other source, only the highest ability applies. (For example, if he Steals Fire Resistance 10 and already has Fire Resistance 5 from a magic item, only the Fire Resistance 10 applies. If he Steals Fire Resistance 10 and already has Cold Resistance 5 from a magic item, both continue to apply).

    Creatures that are repeatedly effected by any Steal Ability from the same spellthief build up an immunity to it. After the first successful use (which has no Save), every additional use of any Steal Ability against an unwilling target entitles the creature to a Willpower Save in order to negate it, with a Save DC equal to 10 + 1/2 the spellthief's class level + his Intelligence bonus minus the total number of times the spellthief has attempted to use any Steal Ability on that creature.

    Absorb Spell (Su): Starting at 6th level, whenever the spellthief makes a successful saving throw against a spell or spell-like ability that normally possesses a partial effect even with a successful save (such as “reflex half” or “fortitude partial”), he ignores the effect completely with a successful saving throw. This defense works against all spells and spell-like abilities, regardless of their spell level or caster level.

    In addition, as a Free Action whenever the spellthief makes a successful saving throw against a spell or successfully negates a spell with spell resistance, he may absorb that spell as if he had successfully used the Steal Spell Ability on the creature casting it. Spells stolen in this manner otherwise have all of the same uses and restrictions of the Steal Spell ability. You cannot Absorb a spell if it is of a spell level you normally Steal, it counts toward your maximum number of stolen spells, etc. If spell you Absorb in this manner has an area of effect, the entire spell is absorbed, negating any possible effects on other creatures as well.

    Nondetection (Su): Starting at 9th level, the spellthief has learned to hide themselves from divination spells, as if under the effect of a continuous Nondetection spell. He is also always aware of any attempt to magically observe him, as if under a continuous Detect Scrying spell. For the purpose of determine these effects, the caster level is equal to the spellthief's class level. The spellthief may only use this ability on themselves (which also effects gear that stays in their possession), and not on any other creature or object.

    In addition, all spell cast by the spellthief no longer require verbal components, as if using the Silent Spell feat. Spells cast using this ability do not increase in spell level or casting time.

    Bypass Wards (Su): Starting at 12th level, as a Standard Action the spellthief may use his Steal Spell ability on any active spell that was cast on an object or has an area of effect that is adjacent to the spellthief. This allows him to steal ongoing spells such as Alarm, Explosive Runes, Solid Fog, Web, Wall of Fire, etc., negating the spell and storing it for future use. Spells stolen in this manner otherwise have all of the same uses and restrictions of the Steal Spell ability. You cannot Bypass a spell if it is of a spell level you cannot normally Steal, it counts toward your maximum number of stolen spells, etc.

    Dimensional Anchor (Su): Starting at 15th level, enemies within 60 feet of the spellthief cannot use any magical means of movement, travel, or teleportation. This includes magical flight, extradimensional travel, astral projection, blink, dimension door, ethereal jaunt, etherealness, gate, maze, plane shift, shadow walk, teleport, and any similar spells, spell-like abilities, or supernatural abilities within DM approval. If an enemy is using any such ability when they come with 60 feet of the spellthief, they are suppressed as if they had entered an Antimagic Field, with a caster level equal to the spellthief's class level. (Although all other magical effects continue normally).

    This ability does not interfere with creatures who are inherently astral, ethereal, or incorporeal (such as a ghost), nor does it block extradimensional perception or attack forms. It also does not prevent summoned creatures from disappearing at the end of a summoning spell. The spellthief may suppress or reinitiate this ability as an Immediate Action.

    Reflect Spell (Su): Starting at 18th level, if the spellthief successfully absorbs a spell with his Absorb Spell ability, then he may cast that spell as an Immediate Action. He must do so immediately after absorbing the spell, otherwise it is stored and can only be cast using it's normal casting time.

    X-Ray Vision (Su): Starting at 19th level, the spellthief gains the ability to see into and through non-living solid matter. The range of this X-Ray Vision is 30 feet, seeing as if he were looking at something in normal light even if there is no illumination. His ability to Sense Magic (and thus Detect Magic, know which enemies he can Steal from, and detect magical traps) and any relevant active Mystic Senses (such as See Invisibility, True Seeing, etc) also function through up to 30 feet of solid matter. He may also look through layers of solid matter with a high level of discernment. For example he could see the treasure inside of a chest or items inside of a backpack. The spellthief may use or suppress this ability at will as a free action.

    Steal Essence (Su): Starting at 20th level, if the spellthief kills a creature with a Backstab and successfully uses any Steal Ability on that creature, he may choose to steal the ability for up to 24 hours. If the stolen ability comes from a temporary effect (such as a spell or a magic item with a limited duration), then the spellthief still automatically loses it when the remaining duration expires. The spellthief may only have one stolen essence at any given time. He cannot use this ability again until the duration of the previous stolen ability has expired (24 hours, or less if it was a temporary effect).


    Prestige Classes: A spellthief may use Backstab to qualify for any prestige class which requires Sneak Attack, and may use their Steal Spells ability to qualify for any prestige class that requires the ability to cast spells. For example, a 4th level Spellthief could qualify for the Arcane Trickster prestige class, because he has 2d6 Backstab, and is capable of casting Mage Hand and other spells of 2nd level or higher. If the prestige class progresses spellcasting ("+1 level of existing class" or " +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class" or "+1 level of existing divine spellcasting class"), then it can progress the spellthief's Steal Spell Ability (maximum spell level stolen and maximum number of spells stored), which also indirectly improves other class abilities they may possess (such as Steal Spell Effect, Steal Charges, and Absorb spell). It does not progress or provide any other spellthief class ability. If a character had more than one spellcasting class before entering a prestige class, he must decide to which class he adds the new level for purposes of determining this progression. (For example, for a Spellthief/Wizard/Arcane Trickster, Arcane Trickster would progress Steal Spell or Wizard Spells, but not both).

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Daemon

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    Default Re: Pathfinder Spellthief

    Well, not much to say except that this is beautiful. Good job.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Pathfinder Spellthief

    Nicely done! Might bump the HD up to D8 just to be in keeping with the pathfinder HD and BAB connection.
    "On another note, good job, Stormageddon; planting the seeds of doubt and mistrust now will go a long way towards culturing an atmosphere of paranoia and neuroticism, perfect for any evil masterminding which your devious plans might require; it hearkens backs to the hoary days when E.G. Gygax himself strode among us." - White Drake Under The Red Sky Campaign

    Under the Red Sky Pathfinder e6

    My homebrew:

    Stormageddon's Pathfinder/E6... P6 Compendium

    (PF) Mistborn, Allomancer

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    Halfling in the Playground
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    Default Re: Pathfinder Spellthief

    I'm letting a player play one of these in the game I'm DMing, and the only change I'd advocate making (that I'm having them add to the class anyhow) is to give a save (Fort or Will, their choice before forcing the save) against the various Steal abilities.

    Add that and a d8 instead of a d6 and I think it would be closer to the kind of balance Pathfinder has.

    Cheers!
    Last edited by GhostwheelZ; 2013-10-14 at 04:15 AM.

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    Firbolg in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Pathfinder Spellthief

    By popular demand, hit die has been increased to d8. I think it's a good idea too, considering how squishy they can be.

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    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Pathfinder Spellthief

    Is there a reason that backstab (and so every other ability that the class has that triggers off backstab) only applies to lethal damage?
    LGBTA+itP

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    Firbolg in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Pathfinder Spellthief

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldest View Post
    Is there a reason that backstab (and so every other ability that the class has that triggers off backstab) only applies to lethal damage?
    Yes. Non-lethal damage does not kill a creature. So a player could theoretically take a creature prisoner, and use them as a "battery" for stored spells and abilities.

    The lethal damage requirement makes is slightly more difficult to pull of this tactic. You can't just beat them continuously with non-lethal damage to Steal stuff. You'd have to hit them once or twice (potentially killing them if you accidentally roll well), heal them, and then repeat, making the process slightly more difficult and resource intensive.

    I've seen a player specifically use this tactic with a RAW 3.5 Spellthief. I allowed it at the time because the RAW 3.5 Spellthief is a much weaker and lower Tier class. But I'd like to discourage it with the fixed version.

    There are also a couple of Pathfinder Feat combos related to dealing non-lethal damage, and I wanted to avoid overlap with those combos so that my PF Spellthief does not completely overshadow the PF Rogue.

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    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Pathfinder Spellthief

    Quote Originally Posted by Person_Man View Post
    Yes. Non-lethal damage does not kill a creature. So a player could theoretically take a creature prisoner, and use them as a "battery" for stored spells and abilities.

    The lethal damage requirement makes is slightly more difficult to pull of this tactic. You can't just beat them continuously with non-lethal damage to Steal stuff. You'd have to hit them once or twice (potentially killing them if you accidentally roll well), heal them, and then repeat, making the process slightly more difficult and resource intensive.

    I've seen a player specifically use this tactic with a RAW 3.5 Spellthief. I allowed it at the time because the RAW 3.5 Spellthief is a much weaker and lower Tier class. But I'd like to discourage it with the fixed version.

    There are also a couple of Pathfinder Feat combos related to dealing non-lethal damage, and I wanted to avoid overlap with those combos so that my PF Spellthief does not completely overshadow the PF Rogue.
    Fair enough. I was considering how to make somebody that could actually take a mage alive and this was probably one of the better classes for it save for that.
    LGBTA+itP

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    Firbolg in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Pathfinder Spellthief

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldest View Post
    Fair enough. I was considering how to make somebody that could actually take a mage alive and this was probably one of the better classes for it save for that.
    If that's a build goal for you, then I would suggest dropping the non-lethal exclusion and adding the progressively easier Saving Throw (DC = 10 + 1/2 your level + Intelligence bonus minus the total number of times the spellthief has attempted to use any Steal ability on that creature) to the Steal Spells, Steal Spell Effect, and Steal Charges ability. That way, you could still use Backstab to knock out a caster, but you'd still have a hard time using him as a spell battery.

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    Default Re: Pathfinder Spellthief

    My first thought was to capture a Troll and store it in a bag of holding, stealing the regeneration ability whenever they needed to re-up, so I could see the abuse there. Still, good job!
    Domriso's Homebrew Compendium - A collection of all of my homebrew, throwing in my own design philosophy and my conceptions for possible new things.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    ElfMonkGuy

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    Default Re: Pathfinder Spellthief

    Quote Originally Posted by Person_Man View Post
    Yes. Non-lethal damage does not kill a creature. So a player could theoretically take a creature prisoner, and use them as a "battery" for stored spells and abilities.

    The lethal damage requirement makes is slightly more difficult to pull of this tactic. You can't just beat them continuously with non-lethal damage to Steal stuff. You'd have to hit them once or twice (potentially killing them if you accidentally roll well), heal them, and then repeat, making the process slightly more difficult and resource intensive.

    I've seen a player specifically use this tactic with a RAW 3.5 Spellthief. I allowed it at the time because the RAW 3.5 Spellthief is a much weaker and lower Tier class. But I'd like to discourage it with the fixed version.

    There are also a couple of Pathfinder Feat combos related to dealing non-lethal damage, and I wanted to avoid overlap with those combos so that my PF Spellthief does not completely overshadow the PF Rogue.
    Intimidate is a class skill for them, and a willing creature requires no backstab. I'm pretty sure they could still just kidnap a particularly cowardly caster and beat them into submission until they were willing. This would almost certainly be evil though.

    also, what's with the X-ray vision? That's kind of a weird little thing to get at such a high level.

    also also, spell absorb has the same issue as mettle. Imagine I cast a Magic Missile on a spellthief, I do 5d4+5 damage with no save to him. Now imagine I cast a Dazing Magic Missile on him, not only does a successful Will save negate the daze, it also negates the Magic Missile. This causes issues with spells which have two separate effects when only one of them allows a saving throw.
    Last edited by Anachronity; 2014-01-19 at 02:46 PM.

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    Firbolg in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Pathfinder Spellthief

    Quote Originally Posted by Anachronity View Post
    Intimidate is a class skill for them, and a willing creature requires no backstab. I'm pretty sure they could still just kidnap a particularly cowardly caster and beat them into submission until they were willing. This would almost certainly be evil though.
    Possible. But honestly, there is no way that I can write a Steal ability that doesn't account for all such circumstances. I wrote it as clearly as I think possible, and we have to rely on reasonable players and DMs to use the rules as intended. If a player attempts to circumvent this in a creative fashion, it's up to the DM to decide how strongly he wishes to clamp down on it. In a high optimization game where other players are throwing around Polymorph and Dominate Monster and whatnot, then I probably wouldn't have that big of a problem with a Spellthief who convinces an NPC to act as a magical battery for him. In a Tier 3-ish game (which is what I aimed for), the DM is free to add circumstance bonuses to checks or ban certain uses of the Steal ability outright.


    Quote Originally Posted by Anachronity View Post
    also, what's with the X-ray vision? That's kind of a weird little thing to get at such a high level.
    The Spellthief is someone who steals magic. So he gets the ability to Sense Magic and a bunch of Mystic Senses, which allow him to detect, locate, and/or bypass magic and magic wielding enemies in variety of useful ways.

    This version of X-Ray Vision was essentially added as a capstone-ish version of Sense Magic+Mystic Senses. It's added at such a high level because it is worded in such a way that can be used with the ability to Sense Magic+Mystic Senses, and it is a continuous ability, with no down side (unlike a Ring of X-Ray vision, which has a down side). Thus, the Spellthief will more or less always know when he comes within 30 feet of any magic using creature (or any creature), magic item, magic trap, etc. He's basically never going to be surprised or "miss something" magical. It also opens up lots of interesting thievery options, since you can tell the contents of every building and container and everything every creature is holding (within range).

    It's not an earth shattering ability by any means. But when given with an extra d6 of Backstab and all the other benefits of gaining a Spellthief level (extra spell level stored, all Mystic Senses level based calculations, etc) I think it makes the 19th level of the class worth taking.


    Quote Originally Posted by Anachronity View Post
    also also, spell absorb has the same issue as mettle. Imagine I cast a Magic Missile on a spellthief, I do 5d4+5 damage with no save to him. Now imagine I cast a Dazing Magic Missile on him, not only does a successful Will save negate the daze, it also negates the Magic Missile. This causes issues with spells which have two separate effects when only one of them allows a saving throw.
    That's true. The Absorb Spell ability gives the Spellthief an advantage against spells that allow a Saving Throw (even if the Save normally only negates part of the spell) and unless he has (or Steals) Spell Resistance, it offers no additional protection against spells that don't allow a Saving Throw.

    But if I wrote the Spell Absorb ability to be more broad (like Spell Turning or something similar) it would probably end up making the Spellthief more or less immune to harmful magic. And that's not the intent of what I was aiming for, especially for a 6th level ability.

    My intent is basically to have a magic-only version of Evasion+Mettle which benefits from the Spellthiefs Steal Magic ability. If the Spellthief is hit by Fireball, and he passes his Saving Throw against it, then he takes no damage and Steals the Fireball (which also prevents it from harming his allies). That's a pretty cool ability. But it's not something that I want to expand to all spells (which would be too powerful), and I don't want to parse it so that making your Saving Throw only negates the part of the spell that is negated by a Saving Throw (which would make Stealing it problematic or impossible).
    (And the "spell or spell-like ability" limitation to the ability means that the Spellthief is SOL against supernatural and extraordinary breath weapons or other similar effects where real Evasion or Mettle would be useful, which was also done on purpose. The Spellthief is not supposed to replace the Rogue or Scout, it's a focused alternative).

    However, if you or anyone would like to propose a netter re-write that threads the needle I'm looking for, I'm open to ideas. Given how capricious magic can be, it's a very tough class to balance.

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    Default Re: Pathfinder Spellthief

    For spell absorb give the spellthief the option to, instead of a normal saving throw, roll a Will save and apply that result as spell resistance against the incoming spell (sort of like an opposed spell resistance roll). If the spell doesn't pass the resistance then it is absorbed. The spellthief could also make this roll against spells which allow no save, but it should not be an option if the spell doesn't allow spell resistance

    This avoids strangeness with spells with two unrelated effects, and also avoids potential issues with spells which ignore spell resistance (What happens if succeed my saving throw on the third round of control wind? What if it's a tornado created by control weather instead? What if it's a save against a poison created by major creation?)
    Last edited by Anachronity; 2014-01-23 at 06:48 PM.

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