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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: No love for Neutral alignments in OOTS

    Quote Originally Posted by AgentofHellfire View Post
    While I agree that Eugene being rude=/=Eugene not being LG, there are other events that make it more likely that Eugene has fallen from grace. Namely, the fact that his reactions to Vaarsuvius' actions while soul-spliced was one of approval. He didn't even think of them as morally appalling, just...totally fine. That definitely puts him lower on the Good end of things than, well, most of the other comics' good guys.

    Not to mention the fact that he interfered with the Summoning in the Trial arc (at least a Chaotic act), and collaborated with Shojo in interfering with the trial to a far greater extent than Roy. And his abandonment of the Blood Oath was problematic enough for the Lawful Good afterlife not to let him in, even though they were fine with allowing Roy.

    So Eugene is, by this point, at best True Neutral.
    Not sure, I should definitely be good-aligned and yet I approve of the soul splice, as it could have solved so many problems. Basically because I have a strong pragmatic streak, and while I believe that ends generally do not justify the means, I also believe that for every rule there is an exception, and with the world at stake, well, it's a good time to make exceptions. I hope I'm not contributing into turning this into a "morally justified" thread that will get subsequently locked, but I rather want to point out that intentions are important, as a person who does evil while trying to do good will generally be considered good (extreme cases notwithstanding).
    About Eugene, I agree that everything else he did in those last years after he died would peg him as true neutral, but probably he will not be judged for that. When alive, he was good, even if his horrible social skills made it quite hard to recognize. Again, it's a matter of intent. He was a bad father, but he was actually trying his best for roy. And he gave a fair shot at Xykon, after that putting vengeance aside for the family was the lawful and good thing to do... too bad for the oath.

    About the lack of neutral caracters, well, they appear, but being neutral, they generally go on with their lives afterwards. they do not stay in the story.
    Also, the main cast (the oots and team evil) were crafted to have conflict in them. So oots is split between lawful good and chaotic good, to get humor out of the coonflict between the straight guys roy and durkon, and the crazyness of elan and haley. So that's the reason there aren't many neutrals among the main teams.
    Sabine may be neutral evil, I don't think we know her alignment on law-chaos axis.
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  2. - Top - End - #32
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    HalflingRangerGuy

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    Default Re: No love for Neutral alignments in OOTS

    Quote Originally Posted by Blas_de_Lezo View Post
    True neutrality maybe, but neutral good, neutral evil and chaotic neutral can be very dramatic.

    For example, a neutral good character is the champion of good (and not lawful good), because he's not attached to traditions, rules but neither to individuality and undiscipline. That makes a NG a very complex character, if he/she is smart, because he will struggle to follow the best path to do the right thing, and that implies using intelligence and analysis. That's a problem that LG or CG chacters don't even consider.



    Please...
    Girard is THE archetype for Chaotic Good. Chaotic Neutral characters are incaple of sacrifices for the common good, even less comitting their entire lifes to guard an "absurd" Gate...

    Chaotic Neutral characters are, on their best, independent, pragmatical and individualists. But as true individualists, they would never involve in lifetime activities for the promotion of good causes. If they could give their life to a project, being CN as they are, they would be philosophical followers of Chaos. One example of this could be the Joker ("I'm an agent of Chaos") in the Dark Knight Batman.

    EDIT: What the boards seem to forget here is that the "true hero" is the Neutral Good alignment, (one that it's entirely committed to the cause of Good, without restrictions) and not the Lawful Good... Take a look at this wheel http://easydamus.com/Composite2.png
    Nice wheel you have there.
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  3. - Top - End - #33
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: No love for Neutral alignments in OOTS

    Quote Originally Posted by Bird View Post
    This is very well put. The contrast between Eugene's being a jerk and his LG-ness is one of my favorite things about the character. (I do think that the "absentee parenting" which you mention would push him a bit away from LG -- leaving your wife with all the child-rearing duties is the sort of non-malevolent selfishness that strikes me as very neutral. Though I agree that he's probably LG overall.)

    My favorite kind of TN has always been a simple one -- not principled and self-sacrificing enough to be good, not malevolent or unprincipled enough to be evil. Similar deal with respect to law/chaos. That's it. Such a character can still have tons of motivations that lead to great drama -- they can fall in love, they can protect their families, they can try to get rich, they can try to save the world, whatever. They just aren't as likely to be as principled or as unprincipled about it as the white or black hats.
    Maybe "absentee father" is the wrong term to use. A better term might be "a father who is not particularly nurturing because of his personality". We have no evidence that Eugene did anything worse than miss a few soccer games, try to convince Roy to become a Wizard rather than a Fighter, and conspire with Shojo to get the OotS to Azure City. Eugene paid Roy's tuition (and probably left a trust fund for Julia as well), and he decided not to pursue Xykon, despite having intelligence on where to find the Lich, when Roy was eight, because he feared he'd leave Roy an orphan.

    Basically Eugene was a Lawful Good man with a lot of character flaws. And as Sara Greenhilt explained to Roy, one of Eugene's flaws was a tendency to not finish projects he started. I can easily see him growing bored of domestic life and divorcing his wife, but he remained faithful to Sara until he died (afterwards was another story) and he loved Roy, Eric and Julia. But his love was a superficial one, and he would find new projects to interest him and then leave them unfinished too. That doesn't make him True Neutral, Chaotic Neutral or Lawful Good, because a Character's Alignment does not govern his personality and vice versa!

    Quote Originally Posted by F.Harr View Post
    Well, he's waiting for AN afterlife. And I think it's a great point Sir Leorik makes. But if Roy keeps trying, Eugene quit trying a long time ago. Even when the world is at stake, he cares more about his and his issues than the mission. I accept that he's good in that he decided that his family should come before the oath and that he has some passing regret for not being an attentive father to Roy. But although his inability to deal with his family reasonably can't really be layed at the feet of his alignment, the fact that when he started something, he lost focus on it tends to not-very-lawfulness.
    Spoilers for SoD:

    Spoiler
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    In SoD, Eugene tells Roy that he never had good intelligence on where to find Xykon after his initial attempt ended up with his group disturbing Xyklon the Consequential. Eugene tells Roy that had he learned where Xykon was hiding, he would have run out on Sara, Roy and Julia in a heartbeat to try and fulfill his Oath.

    Several scenes later we see Eugene meeting Right-Eye in a seedy bar on a rainy night. Right-Eye gives Eugene Xykon's home address and "suggests" the Illusionist rustle up a few adventurers and destroy the Lich. Eugene refuses, because he does not want to die and leave Roy an orphan. Having a family has made a big difference in Eugene's life, even if he doesn't always show it properly, and he convinces Right-Eye to ditch Xykon and make a new life for himself.


    Eugene's decision not to fulfill his Blood Oath of Vengeance can be seen as a Chaotic act, but that alone is not enough to change his Alignment to Neutral Good, True Neutral, etc. The magic of the Blood Oath prevents him from entering any afterlife; should Roy or Julia destroy Xykon, Eugene will be cleared to enter Celestia.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blas_de_Lezo View Post
    True neutrality maybe, but neutral good, neutral evil and chaotic neutral can be very dramatic.

    For example, a neutral good character is the champion of good (and not lawful good), because he's not attached to traditions, rules but neither to individuality and undiscipline. That makes a NG a very complex character, if he/she is smart, because he will struggle to follow the best path to do the right thing, and that implies using intelligence and analysis. That's a problem that LG or CG chacters don't even consider.
    I think that a True Neutral character can be very heroic. Mordenkainen performs great deeds, battles great Evils, and is willing to stand up to old friends like Tenser and Bigby in order to fulfill his philosophy of Balance between the extreme Alignments. As another example, an anti-hero or anti-villain could be True Neutral; a good case can be made that Mal Reynolds, from Firefly was True Neutral, at least following the Alliance's victory in the war.

    Girard is THE archetype for Chaotic Good.
    No, you're thinking of Robin Hood.

    Chaotic Neutral characters are incaple of sacrifices for the common good, even less comitting their entire lifes to guard an "absurd" Gate...

    Chaotic Neutral characters are, on their best, independent, pragmatical and individualists. But as true individualists, they would never involve in lifetime activities for the promotion of good causes. If they could give their life to a project, being CN as they are, they would be philosophical followers of Chaos. One example of this could be the Joker ("I'm an agent of Chaos") in the Dark Knight Batman.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    And Blas's description of Chaotic Neutral bears a very close resemblance to the Player's Handbook description of one alignment.

    Unfortunately, that alignment is Chaotic Evil, not Chaotic Neutral.
    Like Kish said, you're not describing a Chaotic Neutral character, you're describing a Chaotic Evil one. The fact that you mentioned the Joker, the DCU's poster child for Chaotic Evil behavior, should tell you that you don't understand the distinction between Chaotic Neutral and Chaotic Evil.

    Captain Jack Sparrow is Chaotic Neutral, as are Deadpool, Sandor Clegane, aka "The Hound" from "A Song of Ice and Fire, and Kender. The Joker, Lobo and Doctor Light (from the DCU), Sabretooth, Apocalypse, the Green Goblin (in his less sane persona) and Carnage (from the Marvel Universe), The Hound's brother Gregor Clegane, aka "The Mountain That Rides", the bounty hunter Jubal Early (from Firefly) and Bad Horse (if you have to ask where he's from, turn in your nerd badge pronto!) are all Chaotic Evil.

    Being Chaotic Evil doesn't keep someone from making plans, despite the Joker's magnificent speech in The Dark Knight. Apocalypse has been planning the extinction of mankind (and their replacement by his family of mutants, Clan Akkaba) through a brutal system that mimics Social Darwinism for over four thousand years, but he is not Lawful Evil. He has no interest in ruling the world, unlike Doctor Doom or Lex Luthor, because that would mean taking responsibility for what happens to his subjects. Lobo planned and carried out the genocide of his own species, the famously hardy Czarnians, when he was a child. He can track anyone across vast stellar reaches, and once he gives his word he will not break it. But he is a violent, psychotic brute, who views any lifeform, except himself and his space dolphin friends, as a potential target.

    On the same note, Jack Sparrow, when he wasn't drunk, high, trying to have sex, or in custody for crimes against various governments, was an accomplished captain of a pirate ship, who could command his crew's loyalty some of the time. Unlike Robin Hood, Jack Sparrow steals from everybody, he betrays those closest to him, but he never crosses the line that would make him a monster. The Hound lives in a world of Grey and Black morality, where the worst thing he ever actually did was murder a boy because he was ordered to by the Chaotic Evil Prince Joffrey. Everything else Sandor did was Neutral or even Good, especially regarding Sansa and Arya. In his case, the old Yiddish joke, "His brother was worse!" was never more apropos.

    So yeah, Girard and the Draketooths could have been Chaotic Neutral, despite their daily schedules, their complicated traps and illusions, their standing vigil over a Gate for decades and their keeping the oath Girard swore not to interfere with the other Gates. They can't be Chaotic Good, not if what Orrin did to Penelope was standard practice for their clan.

    Quote Originally Posted by AgentofHellfire View Post
    While I agree that Eugene being rude=/=Eugene not being LG, there are other events that make it more likely that Eugene has fallen from grace. Namely, the fact that his reactions to Vaarsuvius' actions while soul-spliced was one of approval. He didn't even think of them as morally appalling, just...totally fine. That definitely puts him lower on the Good end of things than, well, most of the other comics' good guys.

    Not to mention the fact that he interfered with the Summoning in the Trial arc (at least a Chaotic act), and collaborated with Shojo in interfering with the trial to a far greater extent than Roy. And his abandonment of the Blood Oath was problematic enough for the Lawful Good afterlife not to let him in, even though they were fine with allowing Roy.

    So Eugene is, by this point, at best True Neutral.
    Eugene has done exactly two things that are Chaotic since he's died, and he's done quite a number of Lawful and Good things as well. His Alignment's not in danger of changing.

  4. - Top - End - #34
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    DruidGirl

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    Default Re: No love for Neutral alignments in OOTS

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    *Girard's behavior appears to have been quite Chaotic Evil. The only obstacle to classifying him that way, is that he traveled with Soon for as long as he did without Soon appearing to either Fall or kill him. Good has been quite thoroughly off the table ever since the comic revealed the Draketooths' horrific "recruitment" methods.
    That would only be true if we confirmation that Girard was alive and approved/instigated those methods when they were initiated.

    And there is absolutely nothing in the narrative to suggest that. Indeed, since recruitment only becomes an issue after the first generation, and Girard was of that generation, it is just as likely that the practice only began after Girard died, or was something cooked up by an old, dying, and senile Girard, who by then had become something far different from what he was when he was younger.

    I do not think it likely that Serini would have been drawing hearts around a picture of a Chaotic Evil Girard in her diary. Even less likely that she would continue to associate with a CE Girard for so many years afterwards. *Possible* for a Chaotic Neutral Girard, but even that is a stretch, and makes the most likely alignment for Girard to be Chaotic Good.

    It is also possible that Girard started the adventure with the Scribblers as Chaotic Good, but slowly changed alignment as he grew more and more paranoid. (Few pathologically paranoid people start out that way, they become that way over time.)

  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: No love for Neutral alignments in OOTS

    Also, was not Kraagor canonically Chaotic Neutral?

  6. - Top - End - #36
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: No love for Neutral alignments in OOTS

    Quote Originally Posted by Amphiox View Post
    Also, was not Kraagor canonically Chaotic Neutral?
    We don't know what Kraagor's Alignment was. Barbarians can't be Lawful; assuming he wasn't Evil, that leaves four possible Alignments for Kraagor.

  7. - Top - End - #37
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    SamuraiGuy

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    Default Re: No love for Neutral alignments in OOTS

    Yeah, I have a hard time thinking that Girard is Chaotic Evil. Granted, the bar for CE in the strip is set pretty high by Xykon and Belkar (and probably Thog), but his actions are not close to on par with theirs for badness. In truth, his goals are still good ones, that is, the protection of his gate from the predations of the outside world. His methods are unpleasant, i.e. theft and kidnapping, but there's no evidence of murder or other forms of outright cruelty. Chaotic Neutral seems like it can range from loveable nut to selfish jerk, and Girard's crew seem to be on the latter end of the spectrum. I can see him having drifted from being CG in his youth through bitterness and anger at the dissolution of the Scribblers.

    As to the actual topic, it is true that most of the major characters in the strip tend toward extreme alignments, and perhaps that's because the Giant feels he has more insights to offer into those, or perhaps they just ended up fitting most closely with the characters he created. Either way, there's always V, who is very N, and is appropriately complex in that department.

  8. - Top - End - #38
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    Default Re: No love for Neutral alignments in OOTS

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir_Leorik View Post
    The magic of the Blood Oath prevents him from entering any afterlife
    It is not confirmed.
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  9. - Top - End - #39
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    Default Re: No love for Neutral alignments in OOTS

    Roy's sister is True Neutral.
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  10. - Top - End - #40
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    Default Re: No love for Neutral alignments in OOTS

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir_Leorik View Post
    Maybe "absentee father" is the wrong term to use. A better term might be "a father who is not particularly nurturing because of his personality". We have no evidence that Eugene did anything worse than miss a few soccer games, try to convince Roy to become a Wizard rather than a Fighter, and conspire with Shojo to get the OotS to Azure City. Eugene paid Roy's tuition (and probably left a trust fund for Julia as well), and he decided not to pursue Xykon, despite having intelligence on where to find the Lich, when Roy was eight, because he feared he'd leave Roy an orphan.

    Basically Eugene was a Lawful Good man with a lot of character flaws. And as Sara Greenhilt explained to Roy, one of Eugene's flaws was a tendency to not finish projects he started. I can easily see him growing bored of domestic life and divorcing his wife, but he remained faithful to Sara until he died (afterwards was another story) and he loved Roy, Eric and Julia. But his love was a superficial one, and he would find new projects to interest him and then leave them unfinished too. That doesn't make him True Neutral, Chaotic Neutral or Lawful Good, because a Character's Alignment does not govern his personality and vice versa!
    I agree that personality and alignment are not the same -- of course, a LG person can be jerky, a CE person can act sweetly.

    Also, now that you've laid out what we actually know about him, I think that Eugene isn't quite as bad as I remembered him from the comic and SoD.

    If your personality causes you to treat people poorly, though -- I think that's a strike against if you want to be considered good. Imagine things from the perspective of the deva who decides whether to allow you into the LG afterlife. Surely, being a bad parent would be a strike against, yeah? And being a good parent would be a mark in your favor? Note, I'm only saying a "strike" -- it is still be possible for a bad parent to be LG, and of course a good parent can be CE, but treating your family poorly is likely a sign of selfishness -- and selfishness is not a hallmark of good.

    A tendency to abandon projects also doesn't strike me as very lawful. Again, not saying that makes you unlawful, just a strike against.
    Last edited by Bird; 2013-07-21 at 10:38 PM.

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    Default Re: No love for Neutral alignments in OOTS

    Eugene was also involved in the accident that got Eric killed. Without knowing more it'd be stretching things to say he killed Eric, or that his negligence contributed to his death more than any other factor, but he was involved, and Roy does blame him.
    Last edited by zimmerwald1915; 2013-07-21 at 10:47 PM.

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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: No love for Neutral alignments in OOTS

    Quote Originally Posted by martianmister View Post
    It is not confirmed.
    The oath he swears in SoD specifically says so, and this is confirmed by the Deva reviewing Eugene's case file in the book's coda.

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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: No love for Neutral alignments in OOTS

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
    Eugene was also involved in the accident that got Eric killed. Without knowing more it'd be stretching things to say he killed Eric, or that his negligence contributed to his death more than any other factor, but he was involved, and Roy does blame him.
    Roy was pretty young when the accident happened, so his memories may not 100% accurate about what happened. The Deva reviewing Eugene's case file doesn't bring it up, and Roy's Archon was surprised to see Eric in Sara's house. I think that Roy blames himself as much as he blames his father. We haven't seen Eugene's side of the story, so until we get more details (in the comic or from the Giant) we're in the dark about what happened.

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    Default Re: No love for Neutral alignments in OOTS

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir_Leorik View Post
    Roy was pretty young when the accident happened, so his memories may not 100% accurate about what happened. The Deva reviewing Eugene's case file doesn't bring it up, and Roy's Archon was surprised to see Eric in Sara's house. I think that Roy blames himself as much as he blames his father. We haven't seen Eugene's side of the story, so until we get more details (in the comic or from the Giant) we're in the dark about what happened.
    You know, I completely forgot about that page at the end of SoD. That certainly supports your case!

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    Default Re: No love for Neutral alignments in OOTS

    Quote Originally Posted by Bird View Post
    You know, I completely forgot about that page at the end of SoD. That certainly supports your case!
    On the other hand, some people consider editing your own Wikipedia page the most vile crime imaginable, so YMMV.

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    Default Re: No love for Neutral alignments in OOTS

    Quote Originally Posted by King of Nowere View Post
    Not sure, I should definitely be good-aligned and yet I approve of the soul splice, as it could have solved so many problems. Basically because I have a strong pragmatic streak, and while I believe that ends generally do not justify the means, I also believe that for every rule there is an exception, and with the world at stake, well, it's a good time to make exceptions.
    I kind of thought it was the "selling your soul to the devil" thing that was evil, not the soul splice itself - though, of course, Vaarsuvius only sold an infinitesimal fraction of the soul's immortal future.

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    Default Re: No love for Neutral alignments in OOTS

    Quote Originally Posted by King of Nowere View Post
    Sabine may be neutral evil, I don't think we know her alignment on law-chaos axis.
    She's a succubus. As a Demon, she's automatically Chaotic Evil. It's in her blood.

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    Default Re: No love for Neutral alignments in OOTS

    Quote Originally Posted by Warren Dew View Post
    I kind of thought it was the "selling your soul to the devil" thing that was evil, not the soul splice itself - though, of course, Vaarsuvius only sold an infinitesimal fraction of the soul's immortal future.
    Aren't they sort of the same thing, though? I mean, the selling-hir-soul was the "payment" for the soul splice, the "product." I'm not sure anyone thinks that it would have been evil for V to splice the evil spellcasters with hir soul in order to defeat the ABD, reunite the party and attempt to kill Xykon if (s)he could do so without selling hir soul at all. Somebody probably does think this, and I'm open to the idea, but to me the product and the payment come as a package deal.

    Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, it's pretty late over here.
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    Default Re: No love for Neutral alignments in OOTS

    Fiends & other outsiders with a subtype, can change alignment away from that subtype- though it's very rare.

    And Sabine is supervised by Director Lee- a devil.

    Still, the IFCC seemed to be more about "different alignments working together" than "fiends with a changed alignment"

    So it's highly likely that, despite her supervisor, Sabine is CE rather than LE.
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    Default Re: No love for Neutral alignments in OOTS

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir_Leorik View Post
    We haven't seen Eugene's side of the story, so until we get more details (in the comic or from the Giant) we're in the dark about what happened.
    I don't think we ever will. The Giant writes in the Don't Split the Party commentary that "the details of the accident aren't important". The full quote runs as follows:

    Quote Originally Posted by Don't Split the Party
    His [Roy's] feelings about Eric's death (and perhaps what he sees as Eugene's part in it) particularly influence his position on responsibility. The details of the accident aren't important; what matters is the impact they had on the family. It turned normal estrangement between a father and a son into the outright acrimony we see now, and led to Eugene spoiling his third child, Julia.

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    Default Re: No love for Neutral alignments in OOTS

    As I view it, Eugene is TN, or less likely NG, Haley is likely CN, and Girard CN. Varsuuvius may be Good now, but I see no reason to believe he is lawful. Nale is perhaps Neutral Evil, and Miko strikes me as LG only in theory. Roy sometimes behaves in a NG manner.
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    Default Re: No love for Neutral alignments in OOTS

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir_Leorik View Post
    Eugene's rudeness, foul language and absentee parenting aside, nothing Eugene has done indicates he isn't Lawful Good.
    You seem to assume that one is Good (or LG) until proven otherwise. Surely, someone is Neutral by default, unless their behavior indicates that they are of a different alignment.
    Last edited by WoLong; 2013-07-22 at 02:47 AM.
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    Default Re: No love for Neutral alignments in OOTS

    Quote Originally Posted by WoLong View Post
    You seem to assume that one is Good (or LG) until proven otherwise. Surely, someone is Neutral by default, unless their behavior indicates that they are of a different alignment.
    Not when the person in question has been allowed into the LG afterlife just as soon as the Blood Oath is fulfilled :)

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
    I don't think we ever will. The Giant writes in the Don't Split the Party commentary that "the details of the accident aren't important". The full quote runs as follows:
    Uh... I don't think we are supposed to cite entire passages of published material like that, are we?
    Last edited by FujinAkari; 2013-07-22 at 03:55 AM.
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    Default Re: No love for Neutral alignments in OOTS

    I can think of a couple reasons neutrality never figured big.

    For one thing, neutrality on the law-chaos axis never made much sense? You follow the lawful mindset or you don't, and the latter makes you chaotic. It's not like chaotic characters go out of the way to break the law or oppose order just to ensure they're staying in character, they do it primarily when it conveniences them or they believe it's the right thing to do. In that respect, neutral-good/evil is kind of redundant with chaotic-good/evil, unless we're claiming the second group is actually chaotic stupid. By the same token, it's not like lawful characters would continue following the law if it overrides their good/evil alignment unless they're lawful stupid, which doesn't leave neutral-good/evil much of a niche on that side of things either.

    In a similar vein, good and evil are not equal. Even if you do a lot of good things, it only takes one truly heinous act to become evil, while the reverse certainly isn't true. For that reason, it's difficult to make a character who naturally balances good and evil enough to really count as "neutral" rather than a lighter shade of evil, or a darker shade of good. Which brings me back to my first point, only where the neutral alignment becomes redundant unless you assume the other alignments are stupid-good and stupid-evil.

    The other issue is that it's kind of hard to say neutral is the default on the good/evil spectrum, unless it's through inaction. Despite how much controversy the fandom has created over alignments, Good and Evil are clear cut, existing concepts in most D&D universes, OOTS' included. A character can only do so much before they either prove altruistic enough to count for good, or damaging enough to gravitate towards evil. Vaarsuvius is generally described as the Order of the Stick's "neutral" operative, but she's also the most controversially labeled for that reason. She fits the neutral archetype to a T, but as it turns out, a character can only be heroic for the wrong reasons so many times before they start looking like a would-be villain that just happens to be fighting for the better team.
    Last edited by Talvereaux; 2013-07-22 at 04:52 AM. Reason: bit of repetitive phrasing

  25. - Top - End - #55
    Colossus in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: No love for Neutral alignments in OOTS

    Quote Originally Posted by Amphiox View Post
    Also, was not Kraagor canonically Chaotic Neutral?
    I don't know where people get this.

    Looking at the way Kraagor's sacrifice tore the Order of the Scribble apart, and Kraagor's extremely mild line when the other members of the Order were poking at each other, I'd say all existing evidence--what tiny bit of it there is--points to Neutral Good, as good as Elan; "He was the heart and soul of his team."
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    "The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present--they are real." --Aral Vorkosigan

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

  26. - Top - End - #56
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    ClericGuy

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    Default Re: No love for Neutral alignments in OOTS

    Quote Originally Posted by F.Harr View Post
    I suspect that, in the balance, Eugene is neutral good [...]
    I tend to agree. Too bad that this didn't make him any less of an asshat
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    I am a:

    Lawful Good Human Wizard (4th Level)

    Ability Scores:
    Strength- 10
    Dexterity- 11
    Constitution- 13
    Intelligence- 15
    Wisdom- 13
    Charisma- 11

    What D&D character are you?

  27. - Top - End - #57
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    Default Re: No love for Neutral alignments in OOTS

    Lawful Neutral: Mr. Jones, The CPPD, Kilkil.
    Chaotic Neutral: Julio Scoundrél, Jenny, Ian Starshine.
    True Neutral: Gannji, Enor, Julia Greenhilt, Vaarsuvius, Mr. Scruffy, Therkla, Right-eye, The Oracle, Hank.
    Neutral Evil: Tsukikko, Leeky Windstaff, Pompey, Zz'dtri, Bozzok, Crystal, Grubwiggler, the Snail.
    Neutral Good: Lirain, Dorkuan, Kazumi & Daigo.

    I'm sure there are others, and some I'm specifically not mentioning.

    People with Neutral alignments tend to not go on about it all the time. Lack of talking about it does not equal lack of presence in the comic, but since there's very little to say story-wise that can't ALSO be said with at least one corner alignment, there's not much reason to bring it up.
    Rich Burlew


    Utterly Dwarfed, the sixth compilation of The Order of the Stick is now in stock. Order at Ookoodook (paper copies) or Gumroad (digital PDFs), or pick it up from your local gaming store.

  28. - Top - End - #58
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    Default Re: No love for Neutral alignments in OOTS

    Interesting.

    Some of those puzzle me. (Crystal most of all; her blind, absolute dedication and obedience to the Thieves' Guild as personified by Bozzok made me peg her as as Lawful as Durkon.) And there are, of course, some I still wonder what their official alignment is (Girard...).

    Next stop, the Index of the Giant's Comments.
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    "The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present--they are real." --Aral Vorkosigan

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

  29. - Top - End - #59
    Giant in the Playground Administrator
     
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    Default Re: No love for Neutral alignments in OOTS

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    Interesting.

    Some of those puzzle me. (Crystal most of all; her blind, absolute dedication and obedience to the Thieves' Guild as personified by Bozzok made me peg her as as Lawful as Durkon.)
    That's personal loyalty to one person, not to the idea of the Thieves' Guild or the Guildmaster. A single personal relationship does not an alignment make. For example: She's also totally willing to kill Haley and make it look like an accident even after the contract is signed reinstating Haley to the Guild. There's no legalese or loophole there—it's straight-up, "Kill her and then we'll sort it out."

    Put another way: If Haley was voted Guildmaster tomorrow, do you think Crystal would still be absolutely dedicated and obedient to the Thieves' Guild?
    Rich Burlew


    Utterly Dwarfed, the sixth compilation of The Order of the Stick is now in stock. Order at Ookoodook (paper copies) or Gumroad (digital PDFs), or pick it up from your local gaming store.

  30. - Top - End - #60
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    Default Re: No love for Neutral alignments in OOTS

    Considering the question is being asked as a leading question by the person who controls Crystal's every thought and action, I'm going to guess the answer is "no." But if someone else had posed that question, I would probably have bet on what struck me as Crystal's extreme Lawfulness overriding her personal distaste for Haley in that situation.
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    "The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present--they are real." --Aral Vorkosigan

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

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