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    Titan in the Playground
     
    Lix Lorn's Avatar

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    Default The Laguz/Shapeshifter/Therianthrope [3.5 Fire Emblem]

    Emblem Laguz/Taguel
    ‘The pride of the taguel is being true to yourself!’ – Panne, a rabbit Taguel.

    Background: Laguz - known in some realms as Taguel - are those who, whether by blood or skill, have the ability to adopt an animalistic form. Traditionally, Laguz have been treated with disdain or outright genocide by humans.
    Races: In a world true to the source material, this class is a race. Used with traditional d&d races, it becomes more of a hybrid of the druid and barbarian, and is likely to appeal to races such as orcs, as well as more aggressive elves.
    Other Classes: Laguz are excellent complements to casters, capable of going from unassuming to vastly destructive in moments. They are the complementary class of Manaketes - Laguz tend to become more mundane creatures, topping out at unicorns, while creatures such as dragons and phoenixes are the realm of the manaketes.
    Role: Most Laguz are melee combatants and primary damage dealers, but some instead specialise as tanks.
    Laguz in the World: Laguz are often mistreated, victims of xenophobia and scapegoating. In a more integrated society, they make excellent bodyguards and assassins.
    Inspiration: Fire Emblem.

    Alignment: Any.
    Hit Die: d8
    All Emblem classes have the same starting gold and age – their ranks vary wildly.
    Class Skills-The Laguz’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Diplomacy (Cha), Disguise (Dex), Escape Artist (Dex), Handle Animal (Cha), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Move Silently (Dex), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Spellcraft (Int), Survival (Wis) and Tumble (Dex).
    All Emblem classes have Spot (Wis), Listen (Wis), Craft (Dex), Knowledge (Int), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Speak Language, Use Magic Device (Cha), and Use Rope (Dex) as class skills.
    Skill Points at 1st level: (4+ Int Modifier) x4
    Skill Points per Level: 4 + Int Modifier

    The Laguz
    Level Base Attack Bonus Bad Save Good Save Special
    1st
    +0
    +0*
    +2*
    Shifting, Talent
    2nd
    +1
    +0
    +3
    Talent
    3rd
    +2
    +1
    +3
    Talent
    4th
    +3
    +1
    +4
    Talent
    5th
    +3
    +1
    +4
    Talent
    6th
    +4
    +2
    +5
    Talent
    7th
    +5
    +2
    +5
    Beastbane , Talent
    8th
    +6/+1
    +2
    +6
    Talent
    9th
    +6/+1
    +3
    +6
    Talent
    10th
    +7/+2
    +3
    +7
    Talent
    11th
    +8/+3
    +3
    +7
    Greater Shifting, Greater Talent
    12th
    +9/+4
    +4
    +8
    Greater Talent
    13th
    +9/+4
    +4
    +8
    Greater Talent
    14th
    +10/+5
    +4
    +9
    Greater Talent
    15th
    +11/+6/+1
    +5
    +9
    Greater Talent
    16th
    +12/+7/+2
    +5
    +10
    Greater Talent
    17th
    +12/+7/+2
    +5
    +10
    Greater Talent
    18th
    +13/+8/+3
    +6
    +11
    Greater Talent
    19th
    +14/+9/+4
    +6
    +11
    Greater Talent
    20th
    +15/+10/+5
    +6
    +12
    Heroic Shifting, Greater Talent

    *As described in Shifting, the Laguz chooses one saving throw to switch to the good progression, based on the abilities of his chosen animal, and the other two use the bad progression.

    Weapon and Armour Proficiency: A Laguz is proficient with simple weapons and light armour, as well as natural weapons gained from this class.

    Shifting (Ex): Every Laguz has the ability to shift between two or more forms. She chooses two out of humanoid, hybrid, and animal. (The ‘Perfected forms’ talent grants her the third, however.) Unless this class is taken at the character's first level, one of her forms must be humanoid. If taken at their first level, they may choose hybrid and animal, meaning they have no normal form, and could be badly treated for it. Shifting between forms takes a swift action.

    The humanoid form resembles a perfectly normal member of her race without this class, although it gains few of the classes benefits.

    The hybrid form possesses a mixture of humanoid and animal traits, which can be as minor as feline ears, or as major as a coat of fur, large paws and a tail.
    The animal form resembles a normal, albeit sometimes over-large member of their animal form.
    In both hybrid and animal form, the Laguz uses their own traits, as modified by this class. Specific abilities, traits, and abilities possessed by the specific animal should be applied using talents. In the vast majority of animal forms, the Laguz cannot wield weapons, but all of their possessions - especially magical ones - continue to function.

    Usually, a laguz possesses only a single animal affinity.

    A Laguz chooses the basic traits of his hybrid/animal forms at level one, and cannot change them. These include two natural weapons available only in that form (or one weapon with which he may attack twice), and one saving throw which he changes to the good progression for this class.
    These natural weapons are either rending (1d6+Str for a medium character with a 19-20 critical threat range and a x3 critical damage multiplier), or simply destructive. (1d8+1.5Str for a medium character.) Either way, they are both primary and can be used in the same full attack. You choose at first level what type of damage these weapons deal, of any combination of bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing.

    While in hybrid or animal form, the Laguz enjoys a +1 bonus to natural armour, and gains a +2 bonus to each of his physical ability scores.

    At 11th level, and again at 20th, the Laguz increases his natural armour bonus while shifting by one, his physical ability score bonuses from shifting by two, and his natural weapon damage as if by one size.

    Finally, at 1st, 11th and 20th level, he gains a bonus talent, which must be a Beast talent or, at 11th and 20th level, a greater beast talent.

    Note that he does not gain the ability scores or special qualities of the chosen animal - he must represent them using the Laguz' class features.

    Beast Talents: At each level, a Laguz chooses a Talent from the following list. A DM should ensure that a character’s talents are appropriate for the chosen animal - not, for example, wings on a cat.
    Spoiler
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    Acrobat’s Dexterity
    You gain a bonus on balance and tumble checks equal to a quarter of your character level, plus two.

    Armoured Hide Requires: An animal form known for toughness, such as an elephant.
    You increase your natural armour bonus to AC equal by a quarter of your character level, plus one.

    Athlete’s Power
    You gain a bonus on climb and jump checks equal to a quarter of your character level, plus two.

    Boar’s Stamina An animal form known for not dying, like a boar.
    You gain additional hitpoints equal to your ECL, and gain an additional hit point whenever you level up. You gain this benefit regardless of form. You may not take the Lynx's Agility or Wolf's Fang talents.

    Break Their Fists
    Your skin shatters foes who strike it. As an immediate action, you may halve the damage of any physical attack that strikes you. If the attack was a melee attack, the foe takes damage equal to your constitution modifier. After using Break Their Fists, you may not use it again for 10-Con mod rounds, minimum two.

    Calling the Pack (Sp) Requires: An animal form known for travelling in groups, such as a wolf.
    Once an encounter (once an hour outside an encounter) as a standard action, you may summon an animal or magical beast (of a type known for its associations with your current animal form) without class levels to assist you for the duration of the encounter, or one hour outside an encounter. This animal has a maximum CR equal to the lower of half your character level or five, and may be advanced. This ability is treated as a spell of level equal to half your character level.

    Alpha’s Call Requires: Calling the Pack
    The CR limit of your summoned creatures is raised to two thirds of your character level, or ten, whichever is lower. When you summon creatures you could summon without this ability, you may summon 1d3+1 of them, instead of just one.

    Changing Plumage Mastery
    You may adjust your form slightly as you shift. This can have effects as extreme as changing your apparent ethnicity, hair and eye colour, or even as simple as modifying the clothes you wear. Using this ability grants a +10 bonus to a disguise check.

    Eagle Eyes (Ex)
    You are an expert at surveying large areas. You double your sight range increments, and gain a competence bonus to spot checks equal to a quarter of your character level, plus two. This applies in all forms.

    See Deception (Ex) Requires: Eagle Eyes
    You can tell when things are not right. You gain a +3 competence bonus to saves against illusion effects, regardless of form.

    Enhanced Movement Requires: Animal capable of moving in the chosen way. ECL 3 for flight.
    You gain a burrow, flight or swim speed equal to your base land speed. This flight speed has good maneuverability.

    Eyeless Sight Requires: Animal capable of sensing without eyes
    You gain blindsight, with a range of 10ft per point of wisdom modifier.

    Festooned with Fangs Requires: ECL 6
    You gain two secondary natural weapons, of either of the two types you initially chose from. Alternatively, you gain the ability to attack up to twice more with any combination of natural weapons you already possess - the difference is cosmetic.

    Flurry of Strikes (Ex)
    With lightning speed, you strike repeatedly. This talent allows you to make one additional melee attack in a full attack. You may use this ability in any form. After making a flurry, you may not use another one for 10-Dex mod rounds, minimum two.

    Frenzied Leap
    A number of times per encounter equal to one plus a quarter of your ECL, you may make a full attack as part of a charge action, exactly like the pounce ability. You may use this ability regardless of form.

    Grand Endurance
    Training your stamina, you gain a +2 competence bonus to your constitution score, regardless of form.

    Hide of Aeons
    You receive Damage Reduction/silver equal to half your ECL.

    Arcane Hide Requires: Hide of Aeons
    Your damage reduction is improved to Resist. Resist reduces all damage equally regardless of type. Effects that penetrate DR/silver or energy resistance penetrate this Resist, as does damage that would penetrate DR/epic.

    Fleshknitting Requires: Hide of Aeons
    You regain hitpoints per hour equal to your character level, plus your constitution modifier. This is doubled during complete rest. It is halved in human form.

    Hunter’s Scent Requires: Animal known for tracking.
    You gain the Scent ability, and the track feat as a bonus feat.

    Improved Grab Requires: Animal capable of gripping effectively.
    You gain the improved grab ability with any one form of natural weapon you possess.

    Beast’s Maw: Requires: Improved Grab with a bite attack
    You gain the Swallow Whole ability. A swallowed character suffers 1d6 bludgeoning and 1d4+con mod acid damage each round, and must inflict damage equal to a quarter of your HP to escape. Break Their Fists and Hide of Aeons are inapplicable.

    Serpent’s Grip Requires: Improved Grab, Animal known for constriction
    You gain the Constrict ability, dealing 1d6+1.5 Str damage for a medium character. This damage is treated as a natural weapon for the purposes of talents that increase natural weapon damage.

    Lynx’s Agility Requires: An animal form known for being agile, such as a feline.
    Your BAB from Laguz levels becomes equal to the number of levels in Laguz you possess. This may grant you additional attacks. You gain this benefit regardless of form. You may not take the Boar's Endurance or Wolf's Fang abilities.

    Mighty Transformation
    When in hybrid form, you increase your size by one increment, gaining +2 Str and Con, but -2 Dexterity. All normal effects of size changes apply. You may choose to apply this in an animal form.
    If you possess Perfected Forms, you may choose whether or not to use this ability on each time. This talent also allows you to increase your normal form’s size.

    Miniature Transformation
    When in hybrid form, you decrease your size by one increment, gaining -2 Str and Con, but +2 Dexterity. All normal effects of size changes apply. You may choose to apply this in an animal form.
    If you possess Perfected Forms, you may choose whether or not to use this ability on each time. This talent also allows you to decrease your normal form’s size.

    Move Like The Wind (Ex)
    This talent renders the Laguz an expert at dodging. It grants them a +1 dodge bonus to AC, and the Mobility feat, regardless of whether they meet the prerequisites. (This ability also counts as the Dodge feat for the purposes of prerequisites.) These may be used in any form.

    Multiple Totems
    The Laguz chooses an additional animal. He gains as many additional hybrid/animal forms for the new animal as he has for his original choice. This talent may be taken repeatedly. You may qualify for new talents in this way, but talents only apply while in a form they are appropriate to.

    Perfected Forms
    The Laguz has as many variant forms as he desires. He may be fully humanoid, fully animal, or any level of hybridity between the two.

    Prodigious Size
    You gain the Powerful Build trait. Your natural weapons damage increases by one size to match. You may not have both this talent and Slight Form unless you possess Perfected Forms, in which case you may switch between the two at will.

    Shattering Strike
    As a full round action, you may make a single attack. This attack deals bonus damage equal to the amount by which your attack roll surpassed their AC. After making a shattering strike, you may not use another one for 10-Str mod rounds, minimum two.

    Silver Tongue Requires: An animal form known for social skills, such as a fox.
    You gain a bonus on bluff, diplomacy, and intimidate checks equal to a quarter of your character level, plus two.

    Slight Form
    You gain the Slight Build trait. The damage of your natural weapons is unaffected.
    You may not have both this talent and Prodigious Size unless you possess Perfected Forms, in which case you may switch between the two at will.

    Stubborn Fury
    You gain the Diehard feat as a bonus feat. In addition, you are not dead until you reach twice your constitution score in negative HP, and can act as normal until that point.

    Subtleties Requires: Animal known for stealth, such as a chameleon.
    You gain a bonus on disguise, hide, and move silently checks equal to a quarter of your character level, plus two.

    Trample Requires: Prodigious Size
    You gain the Trample ability, dealing 1d8+ 1.5Str mod damage for a medium Laguz.

    Tremendous Might
    Honing your power, you gain a +2 competence bonus to your strength score, regardless of form.

    Trusted Instincts
    By believing in your instincts, you gain a +2 competence bonus to your wisdom score, regardless of form.

    Unrivalled Agility
    Focussing on your speed, you gain a +2 competence bonus to your dexterity score, regardless of form.

    Wind Born Stride (Ex)
    You add 10ft to your base speed in humanoid form, and 20ft to your speed in animal and hybrid forms.

    Foam-Dancing Haste (Ex) Requires: Wind Born Stride, an animal form known for speed
    You can move at full speed without becoming exhausted. However, this does not eliminate the need for sleep, food, or drink, merely for slowed periods of travel or rest. This applies only in animal and hybrid forms.

    Wild Empathy (Ex)
    Many Laguz find it easier to get on with animals than people. You gain the ability to improve the attitude of an animal. This ability functions just like a Diplomacy check made to improve the attitude of a person. The typical domestic animal has a starting attitude of indifferent, while wild animals are usually unfriendly.
    To use Wild Empathy, the Laguz and the animal must be able to study each other, which means that they must be within 30 feet of one another under normal conditions. Generally, influencing an animal in this way takes 1 minute but, as with influencing people, it might take more or less time.
    A character can also use this ability to influence a magical beast with an Intelligence score of 1 or 2, but she takes a -4 penalty on the check.
    You may use this ability in any form.

    Beloved By Beast (Ex) Requires: Wild Empathy
    Choose a single creature of the animal, vermin, or, with DM adjudication, Magical Beast type. This creature may be a swarm. It is treated as your Familiar, with your effective wizard level for this being equal to your effective character level minus the creature’s CR.

    Friend of the Furred (Ex) Requires: Wild Empathy
    You may cast Charm Monster on any animal or Magical beast once per encounter (or once an hour outside of encounters) as part of an action taken to use diplomacy. This is an extraordinary, non mind-affecting ability, which may be used in any form. Its duration ends immediately when the character uses this ability a second time.

    Wolf’s Fang Requires: An animal form known for being dangerous, such as a wolf.
    Choose any number of natural weapons you possess from this class. Their damage is increased as if by one size. You may not take the Boar's Endurance or Lynx's Agility talent.


    Beastbane (Ex): A 7th level Laguz is expert at slaying other animals. Whenever he attacks a creature of the animal or magical beast types, a character mounted on one of them (including a character using a Mount ability), or a character with one or more levels of Laguz, he increases his damage as if by one size.

    Greater Beast Talents: Whenever a Laguz of character level eleven or higher would choose a Beast Talent, he may choose a talent from the following list, or from the talent list of any base class they possess, instead of choosing a Beast Talent.
    Spoiler
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    Agile Movement Requires: Enhanced Movement
    Each movement you have from the prerequisite ability doubles in speed. Flight speeds enhance to perfect maneuverability.

    Colossal Transformation Requires: Mighty Transformation
    You may now increase your size by up to two categories, doubling the effects of this talent's prerequisite.

    Endless Might
    Choose any number of natural weapons you possess from this class. Their damage is increased as if by one size.

    Eternal Alacrity Requires: Unrivalled Agility, an animal form known for speed, such as a bird.
    Your training reaches a peak. Your bonus to Dexterity is increased to +4, regardless of form.

    Eternal Hunt (Ex) Requires: Abhorred By Man, Beloved By Beast
    If your familiar is killed, you suffer two points of charisma damage. After 24 hours, you may spend 100gp and spend one hour in ritual. This ritual is a supernatural ability.
    Doing so returns your familiar to life, and allows this charisma damage to be healed instantly.

    Hunt’s Companion (Ex) Requires: Eternal Hunt
    The character’s companion now also gains the benefits of being a Druid’s animal companion, at the same level. If it would gain the same benefit twice (Such as with Natural Armour), it gains the better.
    Swarm Companions increase their swarm damage by 1d6 whenever their Strength adjustment reaches a multiple of two.

    Final Blow Requires: Shattering Strike
    Whenever you use your Shattering Strike, you ignore half of the target’s Resist or other damage-reducing ability. In addition, your bonus damage is increased to double the amount by which you surpassed the target’s AC. Finally, subtract two from the cooldown of this ability, minimum 1.

    Furious Strike Requires: Wolf’s Fang
    Your natural weapons from this class add 0.5Str to their damage, giving them a base damage of 1d6+1.5Str for rending weapons, and 1d8+2Str damage for destructive weapons.

    Grand Flurry Requires: Flurry of Strikes
    Your ability to strike repeatedly is without equal. You may now make a second additional attack in a full attack when making a flurry. In addition, subtract two from the cooldown of this ability, minimum 1.

    Hybrid Totems Requires: Multiple Totems
    You may adopt hybrid and/or animal forms that are a fusion of two or more different animals. When doing so, you possess a logical combination of their traits.

    Immovable Object Requires: Break Their Fists
    You can apply Break Their Fists to non-physical attacks, and deal damage regardless of range. In addition, subtract two from the cooldown of this ability, minimum 1.

    Instinctual Wisdom Requires: Trusted Instincts
    Your training reaches a peak. Your bonus to Wisdom is increased to +4, regardless of form.

    Numberless Claws
    You gain two additional natural weapons. Each one is either a rending or a destructive weapon, as described earlier. Up to one of the two may be a primary weapon usable in a full attack with your other natural weapons, but the other/s are secondary. Alternatively, you gain the ability to attack up to twice more with any combination of natural weapons you already possess - the difference is cosmetic.

    You may take this talent more than once, but only if using it to gain additional weapons for an animal form with many weapons.

    Overwhelming Force Requires: Tremendous Might, an animal form known for strength, such as a rhino.
    Your training reaches a peak. Your bonus to Strength is increased to +4, regardless of form.

    Peacock’s Many Masks Requires: Changing Plumage Mastery
    Your shifts can now introduce massive changes, making you the size of a young child, or even changing you to the other sex. This negates penalties to disguise checks caused by race, size, gender, or similar physical problems.

    Pounce Requires: Frenzied Leap
    You gain the Pounce special ability.

    Queen of the Wild Requires: Alpha’s Call
    The CR limit of your summoned creatures is raised to four fifths of your character level.

    Sustained by Fury Requires: Fleshknitting
    You now possess fast healing equal to a quarter of your character level. In addition, while in animal or hybrid form, you can regenerate limbs as per the Regenerate ability.

    Unbound Stamina Requires: Grand Endurance, an animal form known for survivability, such as a gorilla.
    Your training reaches a peak. Your bonus to Constitution is increased to +4, regardless of form.

    Unbreakable Skin Requires: Hide of Aeons
    Your DR or Resist is no longer penetrated by silver weapons. Only effects that would bypass DR/-, DR/Epic (or the appropriate resistance, for Arcane Hide) bypass your defences.

    Unbroken Hide Requires: Bear’s Stamina, Hide of Aeons
    Your damage reduction is increased to match your ECL.

    Unseen Scale Requires: Miniature Transformation
    You may now decrease your size by up to two categories, doubling the effects of this talent's prerequisite when you do.

    Vicious Strikes Requires: Lynx’s Agility
    Your natural weapons from this class increase their base critical threat range and damage multiplier by one. This increase applies before other effects, and stacks with them.


    Feats
    Spoiler
    Show
    Student of the Wild
    Prerequisites: Shifting
    Benefits: All class features usually based on Wisdom are instead based on Intelligence. You have access to the Grand Knowledge talent and the Supreme Scholar greater talent, rather than the Trusted Instincts and Instinctual Wisdom talents.
    Normal: You are born into this, you don’t do exams on it.

    Wild Queen
    Prerequisites: Shifting
    Benefits: All class features usually based on Wisdom are instead based on Charisma. You have access to the Overwhelming Power talent and the Irresistable Force greater talent, rather than the Trusted Instincts and Instinctual Wisdom talents.
    Normal: You utilise instincts, not bullheadedness.


    Flaws
    Spoiler
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    Feral Form
    Prerequisites: Level 1 Laguz, promising to your DM that you intend to keep taking Laguz levels.
    Effect: In animal and/or hybrid form, you cannot distinguish friend from foe. You must make a will save with DC equal to 15 plus your character level each round to not charge or full attack the nearest creature. Certain blessed items made of silver can give an alchemical bonus to this will save and that required by Moon-Mad, rising up to +5 for a silver collar blessed by an appropriate animal deity, worth several thousand gold pieces. You can also gain a +1 circumstance bonus by assuming minor animal forms, such as merely ears and a tail, if you have that capability.

    Alternatively, failing your save causes you to become fully animalistic in these forms. You are treated as an NPC, and should be played as an animal.
    Treatment: Mechanically, you may use a feat to negate this flaw at any time. Flavour-wise, this requires training.

    Moon-Mad
    Prerequisites: Level 1 Laguz, promising to your DM that you intend to keep taking Laguz levels.
    Effect: You must transform to a visibly animalistic form - of a greater degree than tail and ears - on the three nights of the full moon. You may resist this compulsion with a successful will save with DC 20+character level, taken once an hour.
    Last edited by Lix Lorn; 2014-04-29 at 04:33 PM.
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  2. - Top - End - #2
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    Silva Stormrage's Avatar

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    Default Re: The Laguz/Shapeshifter/Therianthrope [3.5 Fire Emblem]

    Oh I somehow missed this when it was first posted. Very interesting take on the Laguz and a fairly good way of making all the laguz into one class with the additional benefit of making it possible to add more laguz types then what are present in the regular series.

    Comments:

    Why medium BAB? They are a pure frontline fighter shouldn't they have full BAB progression?

    For natural weapons I think the way you have it has destructive natural weapons as much stronger than rending, maybe increase rending to 18-20 crit range? Or crit multiplier to *3?

    Beastbane: While balanced I don't quite understand why you added this ability in? Is it from Awakening?

    In the line describing talents you state, "not, for example, wings on a cat totem" you don't mention totems anywhere else. Are the animals that the laguz chose called totems?



    Beast Talents:


    Armoured Hide: You might want to quantify that as an animal with a +4 natural armor bonus or higher but thats up to you.

    Bear’s Stamina: Similarly, con of 16 or higher might be easier to use in a game rather than discuss wether or not a boar qualifies as hard to kill.

    Calling the pack: Can you summon advanced animals or do they need to be the standard animals? Where do these animals come from? Is this a summon spell like ability or (Ex).

    Eyeless sight, the radius is pretty small if the character is blind otherwise. I would suggest making it blindsight of 10ft per wisdom modifier, otherwise the character will just buy a headband of true darkness (MiC) and get 30ft blindsight instead of investing points into wisdom.

    Arcane Hide: You might want to describe resistance again (Its the same mechanic from your swarmlord right?)

    Mighty Transformation: Does this ability cause the standard ability score increases as well?

    Mini transformation: Same as above

    Shattering Strike: Might want to remove the cooldown entirely on this, its effectively power attack that automatically deals maximum damage but can't be used in a full attack. I don't think it warrants such a long cooldown.

    Stubborn Fury: No balance critiques here this is just an awesome ability XD.

    Wind Born Stride: Shouldn't that be +10 move speed while in human form rather than dismounted?

    Wolf's Fang: Isn't this ability almost weaker for most purposes compared to Prodigious Size? Also you can have a LOT of size increases for natural weapons here. Especially when combined with items and spells that do similar things. i would suggest just removing wolf's fang as a talent.

    Greater Beast Talents:
    Unbreakable Skin: You might want to clarify what "lose your weakness to silver" means.

    Vicious Silver: Might also want to clarify that this bonus stacks with improved critical and the like.



    All in all a very interesting class. I continue to love your fire emblem ports XD. You should attempt Cleric or Troubadour next
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  3. - Top - End - #3
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    Lix Lorn's Avatar

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    Default Re: The Laguz/Shapeshifter/Therianthrope [3.5 Fire Emblem]

    Quote Originally Posted by Silva Stormrage View Post
    Oh I somehow missed this when it was first posted. Very interesting take on the Laguz and a fairly good way of making all the laguz into one class with the additional benefit of making it possible to add more laguz types then what are present in the regular series.
    Thanks.

    Comments:

    Why medium BAB? They are a pure frontline fighter shouldn't they have full BAB progression?
    To counteract the way they can pump all their attributes massively. Also note there's a talent to buff it - it's intended that you specialise in either power, speed, or toughness.

    For natural weapons I think the way you have it has destructive natural weapons as much stronger than rending, maybe increase rending to 18-20 crit range? Or crit multiplier to *3?
    Okay.

    Beastbane: While balanced I don't quite understand why you added this ability in? Is it from Awakening?
    Yes, it is.

    In the line describing talents you state, "not, for example, wings on a cat totem" you don't mention totems anywhere else. Are the animals that the laguz chose called totems?
    Whoooops. xD

    Armoured Hide: You might want to quantify that as an animal with a +4 natural armor bonus or higher but thats up to you.

    Bear’s Stamina: Similarly, con of 16 or higher might be easier to use in a game rather than discuss wether or not a boar qualifies as hard to kill.
    I want to leave that based on fluff.

    Calling the pack: Can you summon advanced animals or do they need to be the standard animals? Where do these animals come from? Is this a summon spell like ability or (Ex).
    Can be advanced as long as the CR is okay. Sp.

    Eyeless sight, the radius is pretty small if the character is blind otherwise. I would suggest making it blindsight of 10ft per wisdom modifier, otherwise the character will just buy a headband of true darkness (MiC) and get 30ft blindsight instead of investing points into wisdom.
    Okay.

    Arcane Hide: You might want to describe resistance again (Its the same mechanic from your swarmlord right?)
    True enough.

    Mighty Transformation: Does this ability cause the standard ability score increases as well?

    Mini transformation: Same as above
    No, mainly because I couldn't find them and/or they were silly.

    Shattering Strike: Might want to remove the cooldown entirely on this, its effectively power attack that automatically deals maximum damage but can't be used in a full attack. I don't think it warrants such a long cooldown.
    I want there to be options round to round, plus I feel automatically doing max PA is a major benefit.

    Stubborn Fury: No balance critiques here this is just an awesome ability XD.
    Thanks.

    Wind Born Stride: Shouldn't that be +10 move speed while in human form rather than dismounted?
    Whoooops.

    Wolf's Fang: Isn't this ability almost weaker for most purposes compared to Prodigious Size? Also you can have a LOT of size increases for natural weapons here. Especially when combined with items and spells that do similar things. i would suggest just removing wolf's fang as a talent.
    They stack. Wolf's Fang can be used without you needing to be huge - and bear in mind your natural weapons need to compete with the emblem weapons, which scale up to about 8d8 damage before any magic.

    Greater Beast Talents:
    Unbreakable Skin: You might want to clarify what "lose your weakness to silver" means.

    Vicious Silver: Might also want to clarify that this bonus stacks with improved critical and the like.
    Will do.

    All in all a very interesting class. I continue to love your fire emblem ports XD. You should attempt Cleric or Troubadour next
    Ehe... I have no idea how to deal with staffs at all.
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    Default Re: The Laguz/Shapeshifter/Therianthrope [3.5 Fire Emblem]

    Okay then this class looks good then. I missed the talent that gives full bab, that should be enough.

    Another thing that you might want to add is having their natural weapons count as magical weapons at some point? As written any incorporeal creature automatically wins against them. Maybe make it a talent?


    For staves, hm. Thats a fair point on how to make healing not incredibly overpowered. Maybe make it so that a particular subject can only be healed by an individual cleric a certain number of times per hour? That would limit its out of combat healing potential and would let you make the staves actually heal a lot (Since really in FE they almost always heal to full).

    That could work with sleep and the other staves as well, maybe for those limit it so that a particular target can only be affected by a sleep staff once per hour? Or make it so that a particular cleric can only use a sleep staff once per hour? Or something similar?

    By 10th level they can use other types of magic so they don't solely need to rely on staves at that point. But things like berserk staves and sleep staves would add some nice versatility to the class.
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    Default Re: The Laguz/Shapeshifter/Therianthrope [3.5 Fire Emblem]

    I should probably play more fire emblem...
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    Default Re: The Laguz/Shapeshifter/Therianthrope [3.5 Fire Emblem]

    I wanted to say I find this class quite nice. I like the whole anthro race. I just looked up the Laguz. Are these talents based soley on the three different tribes.
    I see you mention swim speed but there is no fish tribe But this is for DnD? I don't see fire breathing so dragon Laguz aren't possible, which I'm fine with.

    I was also wondering if you were finished or if you are making any more talents?

    I like the diversity which allows those to pick talents that would associate with a particular animal.

    Question. I don't understand that one Talent Bear's endurance. What does it mean by hard to kill? Just a tough animal? Or do you mean that the base animal doesn't have any predators.

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    Default Re: The Laguz/Shapeshifter/Therianthrope [3.5 Fire Emblem]

    Comments and Questions:

    You have skills listed as Dark Mage skills. That seems to be a copy/paste error.

    You mention that they have the same age and gold as other emblem classes. Is that information available anywhere?

    Shifting: Does this affect how you play if you pick Hybrid and Animal forms only? You did say you can play any two.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lix Lorn View Post
    A Laguz chooses the basic traits of his hybrid/animal forms at level one, and cannot change them. These include two natural weapons available only in that form, and one saving throw which he changes to the good progression for this class.

    These natural weapons are either rending (1d6+Str for a medium character with a 19-20 critical threat range and a x3 critical damage multiplier), or simply destructive. (1d8+1.5Str for a medium character.) Either way, they are both primary and can be used in the same full attack. You choose at first level what type of damage these weapons deal, of any combination of bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing.
    Why would anyone pick a destructive attack ever? This should be keyed to the Animal you take.

    PCs should gain either 2 claws as a primary natural weapon or a bite as a primary natural weapon, depending on the animal they chose. If they chose an animal that does not have claws, they can only take the bite attack. The claws cause 1d6 points of damage plus the PC's Strength modifier and the Bite causes 1d8 points of damage and uses 1½ PC's Strength modifier.

    I don't recommend giving them extended threat ranges since they can take the Improved Critical feat to do that.

    I also don't think an Animal's natural weapons should ever do x3 on a critical hit. It's overpowered.

    I think the Talents should be presented in list form and some are underpowered while others are overpowered. Talents that add 1/4 of your level are useless until 8th level and a feat would do a better job. Ferocity should have been included, esp. as it should be required for one of the abilities on the list (already fixed) see changes below.

    Natural Armor bonuses stack with armor bonuses except other natural armor bonuses.

    I don't usually recommend giving out things that can be taken as feats when they aren't feats. Bonuses to skills are fairly useless since your 1/4 character level hampers them too much. By 8th level, this is only +2. See my changes below.

    Not using something for 10-con modifier rounds hurts people with high Con. Ditto for other any other ability. See my changes below.

    You cannot change BAB. That's static.

    Abilities should be daily or up to 3 times a day and should balance out with each other. Bonuses should always be even numbers.

    Note since Beast Talent already requires you to take on appropriate talents for your chosen animal, you don't need to reiterate it as a requirement.

    Edit: added changes here.

    Here are more of the changes that I've made to even out some of the talents.

    Beast Talents: At each level, a Laguz chooses a Talent from the following list. . The talent must be appropriate to the animal chosen. You may not choose flight if you are a cat for example.

    • Abhorred By Men, Beloved By Beast (Ex): Requires Beast's Empathy. Choose a single creature of the animal, vermin, or, with DM adjudication, Magical Beast type. This creature may be a swarm. It is treated as your Familiar, with your effective wizard level for this being equal to your effective character level minus the creature’s CR.

    • Acrobat’s Dexterity (Ex): You gain a +2 Competence bonus on Balance and Tumble checks. This bonus increases to +4 at 8th level and to +6 at 16th level.

    • Alpha’s Call (Sp): Requires: Calling the Pack. The CR limit of your summoned creatures is raised to 2/3 your HD or 10, whichever is lower. The number of creatures summoned increases to 1d3+1 creatures.

    • Arcane Hide (Ex): Requires: Hide of Aeons. Your damage reduction changes from silver to magic.

    • Armoured Hide (Ex): You gain a +2 natural armour bonus to AC. This bonus increases to +4 at 8th level and to +6 at 16th level.

    • Athlete’s Power (Ex): You gain a bonus on +2 Competence bonus to Climb and Jump checks. This bonus increases to +4 at 8th level and to +6 at 16th level.

    • Beast’s Empathy (Ex): You gain the ability to improve the attitude of an Animal. This ability functions just like a Diplomacy check made to improve the attitude of a person. The typical domestic animal has a starting attitude of indifferent, while wild animals are usually unfriendly. To use Beast’s Empathy, the Laguz and the animal must be able to study each other, which means that they must be within 30 feet of one another under normal conditions. Generally, influencing an animal in this way takes 1 minute but, as with influencing people, it might take more or less time. A character can also use this ability to influence a magical beast with an Intelligence score of 1 or 2, but she takes a -4 penalty on the check. You may use this ability in any form.

    • Beast’s Maw (Ex): Requires: Improved Grab with a bite attack. You gain the Swallow Whole ability. A swallowed character suffers 1d6 points of bludgeoning damage and 1d4 points of acid damage plus your Con modifier each round. Your opponent must inflict damage equal to a quarter of your hit points to escape. Break Their Fists and Hide of Aeons are inapplicable.

    • Beastly Stamina (Ex): You gain an additional hit point whenever you level up. You gain this benefit regardless of form.

    • Break Their Fists (Ex): Three times a day as an immediate action, you may halve the damage of any physical attack that strikes you. If the attack was a melee attack, the foe takes damage equal to your Constitution modifier (minimum 1).

    • Calling the Pack (Sp): Once a day as a standard action, you may summon an Animal to assist you for one hour. The time must be consecutive though you can dismiss the creature at any time. This animal has a maximum CR equal to 1/2 of your HD rounded or a maximum of 5, whichever is lower. The creature may be advanced. Your CL is equal to 1/2 your HD for this purpose

    • Changing Plumage Mastery (Ex): You may adjust your form slightly as you shift. This can have effects as extreme as changing your apparent ethnicity, hair and eye colour, or even as simple as modifying the clothes you wear. Using this ability grants a +10 Insight bonus to a Disguise checks.

    • Eagle Eyes (Ex): You double your sight range increments, and gain a +4 Competence bonus to Spot checks.

    • Enhanced Movement (Ex): If your animal form has a burrow, flight or swim speed, you gain that ability in your Humanoid with a speed equal to your land speed. Flight can only be taken at 3rd level or higher and you gain Good maneuverability.

    • Eyeless Sight (Ex): You gain blindsight with a range of 30 feet.

    • Ferocity (Ex): You are such a tenacious combatant that you continue to fight without penalty even while disabled or dying.

    • Flesh-knitting (Ex): Requires Hide of Aeons. You heal faster than normal when you heal naturally and gain double the amount of hit points.

    • Flurry of Strikes (Ex): Three times a day you may make one additional melee attack in a full attack. You may use this ability in any form.

    • Foam-Dancing Haste (Ex): Requires: Wind Born Stride. You can move at full speed without becoming exhausted. However, this does not eliminate the need for sleep, food, or drink, merely for slowed periods of travel or rest. This applies only in animal and hybrid forms.

    • Frenzied Leap (Ex): Three times a day, you may make a full attack as part of a charge action, exactly like the pounce ability. You may use this ability regardless of form.

    • Friend of the Furred (Sp): Requires: Beast’s Empathy. You may cast charm monster on any Animal once per day with your caster level equal to your laguz hit die. This ability may be used in any form. At fifth level, you may use this ability on Magical Beasts as well.

    • Grand Endurance: Training your stamina, you gain a +2 enhancement bonus to your Constitution score, regardless of form.

    • Hide of Aeons (Ex): You receive Damage Reduction 5/silver. This increases to Damage Reduction 10/silver at 10th level and Damage Reduction 15/silver at 15th level.

    • Hunter’s Scent: You gain the Scent ability and the track feat as a bonus feat.

    • Improved Grab: You gain the Improved Grab ability with the natural weapon you possess.

    • Mighty Transformation (Ex): When in hybrid form, you increase your size by one increment. For a Medium creature, you gain +2 Strength and Constitution but take a -2 Dexterity penalty. All normal effects of size changes apply. You may choose to apply this in an animal form. If you possess Perfected Forms, you may choose whether to use this ability each time. This talent also allows you to increase your normal Humanoid form’s size.

    • Miniature Transformation (Ex): When in hybrid form, you decrease your size by one increment. For a Medium creature, you take -2 Strength and Constitution penalties but gain +2 Dexterity. All normal effects of size changes apply. You may choose to apply this in an animal form. If you possess Perfected Forms, you may choose whether to use this ability each time. This talent also allows you to decrease your normal Humanoid form’s size.

    • Move Like The Wind (Ex): You gain a +1 Dodge bonus to AC, and the Mobility feat, regardless of whether you meet the prerequisites. (This ability also counts as the Dodge feat for the purposes of prerequisites.) These may be used in any form.

    • Multiple Totems: You chose an additional animal. You gain as many additional hybrid/animal forms for the new animal as you have for your original choice. This talent may be taken repeatedly. You may qualify for new talents in this way, but talents only apply while you are in the appropriate form.

    • Perfected Forms: You have as many variant forms as you desire. You may be fully humanoid, fully animal, or any level of hybridity between the two.

    • Powerful Build (Ex): You function in many ways as if you were one size category larger. Whenever you are subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as during grapple checks, bull rush attempts, and trip attempts), you are treated as one size larger if doing so is advantageous to him. You are also considered to be one size larger when determining whether a creature’s special attacks based on size (such as improved grab or swallow whole) can affect you. You can use weapons designed for a creature one size larger without penalty. However, your space and reach remain those of a creature of your actual size. The benefits of this talent stack with the effects of powers, abilities, and spells that change the subject’s size category. You may not have both this talent and Slight Form unless you possess Perfected Forms, in which case you may switch between the two at will.

    • See Deception (Ex): Requires: Eagle Eyes. You gain a +4 Competence bonus to saves against illusion effects, regardless of form.

    • Serpent’s Grip Requires: Improved Grab. You gain the Constrict ability. On a successful grapple, you deal 1d6 points of damage plus 1/2 your Strength modifier (for a Medium character). This damage is treated as a natural weapon for the purposes of talents that increase natural weapon damage.

    • Shattering Strike (Ex): Three times as day as a full-round action, you may make a single attack. This attack deals bonus damage equal to the amount by which your attack roll surpassed your opponent's AC.

    • Silver Tongue (Ex): You gain a +2 Insight bonus to Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimidate checks.

    • Slight Build (Ex): You function in many ways as if you were one size category smaller. Whenever you are subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as Hide), you are treated as one size smaller if doing so is advantageous to you. You are also considered to be one size smaller when "squeezing" through a restrictive space. You can use weapons designed for a creature one size smaller without penalty. However, your space and reach remain those of a creature of your actual size. The benefits of this talent stack with the effects of powers, abilities, and spells that change the subject's size category. You may not have both this talent and Powerful Build unless you possess Perfected Forms, in which case you may switch between the two at will.

    • Stubborn Fury: Requires Ferocity. You gain the Diehard feat as a bonus feat. In addition, you are not dead until you reach twice your constitution score in negative HP, and can act as normal until that point.

    • Subtleties: You gain a +2 Competence bonus on Hide, and Move Silently checks. This increases to +4 at 8th level and +6 at 16th level.

    • Trample (Ex); Requires: Prodigious Size. You gain the Trample ability, dealing 1d8 points of damage plus 1½ your Strength modifier (for a Medium creature).

    • Tremendous Might (Ex): You gain a +2 enhancement bonus to your strength score, regardless of form.

    • Trusted Instincts (Ex): By believing in your instincts, you gain a +2 enhancement bonus to your Wisdom score, regardless of form.

    • Unrivalled Agility (Ex): By focussing on your speed, you gain a +2 enhancement bonus to your Dexterity score, regardless of form.

    • Wind Born Stride (Ex): You add 10 feet to your base speed in Humanoid form, and 20 feet to your speed in Animal and Hybrid forms.

    • Wolf’s Fang (Ex): Your natural weapon damage increases by one size as if you had gained a size. This does not stack with Powerful Build size if you have that.

    More to come later.

    Debby
    Last edited by Debihuman; 2013-08-10 at 08:01 AM.
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    Default Re: The Laguz/Shapeshifter/Therianthrope [3.5 Fire Emblem]

    Quote Originally Posted by Silva Stormrage View Post
    Okay then this class looks good then. I missed the talent that gives full bab, that should be enough.

    Another thing that you might want to add is having their natural weapons count as magical weapons at some point? As written any incorporeal creature automatically wins against them. Maybe make it a talent?
    Good idea! Will add later.

    For staves, hm. Thats a fair point on how to make healing not incredibly overpowered. Maybe make it so that a particular subject can only be healed by an individual cleric a certain number of times per hour? That would limit its out of combat healing potential and would let you make the staves actually heal a lot (Since really in FE they almost always heal to full).

    That could work with sleep and the other staves as well, maybe for those limit it so that a particular target can only be affected by a sleep staff once per hour? Or make it so that a particular cleric can only use a sleep staff once per hour? Or something similar?

    By 10th level they can use other types of magic so they don't solely need to rely on staves at that point. But things like berserk staves and sleep staves would add some nice versatility to the class.
    Yeah...

    Quote Originally Posted by Arcanist View Post
    I should probably play more fire emblem...
    You totally should!

    Quote Originally Posted by Merchant View Post
    I wanted to say I find this class quite nice. I like the whole anthro race. I just looked up the Laguz. Are these talents based soley on the three different tribes.
    I see you mention swim speed but there is no fish tribe But this is for DnD? I don't see fire breathing so dragon Laguz aren't possible, which I'm fine with.
    I just expanded it, hopefully you should be able to make any animal.

    Dragons are folded into Manaketes, which I haven't written yet.

    I was also wondering if you were finished or if you are making any more talents?
    I'll make more if I think of more!

    I like the diversity which allows those to pick talents that would associate with a particular animal.

    Question. I don't understand that one Talent Bear's endurance. What does it mean by hard to kill? Just a tough animal? Or do you mean that the base animal doesn't have any predators.
    Just a tough animal. (shrug)

    Quote Originally Posted by Debihuman View Post
    Comments and Questions:

    You have skills listed as Dark Mage skills. That seems to be a copy/paste error.
    Whoops. xD

    You mention that they have the same age and gold as other emblem classes. Is that information available anywhere?
    ...oops. I don't think I ever decided, since those things hardly ever come up for me.

    Shifting: Does this affect how you play if you pick Hybrid and Animal forms only? You did say you can play any two.
    Yup. The downside here would be that you can't pretend to be a human. It should be a level 1 only option, though.

    Why would anyone pick a destructive attack ever? This should be keyed to the Animal you take.
    Because the destructive ones get a better benefit from Str?

    I don't recommend giving them extended threat ranges since they can take the Improved Critical feat to do that.

    I also don't think an Animal's natural weapons should ever do x3 on a critical hit. It's overpowered.
    I disagree. If they don't have improved critical threat range, then improved critical will only ever boost them to 19-20. The x3 modifier is to make it actually appealing compared to the straight up smashy option.

    I think the Talents should be presented in list form and some are underpowered while others are overpowered. Talents that add 1/4 of your level are useless until 8th level and a feat would do a better job. Ferocity should have been included, esp. as it should be required for one of the abilities on the list (already fixed) see changes below.
    I see your point that the skill talents need buffing, but I want them to scale. I don't view Ferocity as powerful enough to make it a separate talent.

    Natural Armor bonuses stack with armor bonuses except other natural armor bonuses.
    I will clarify.

    Not using something for 10-con modifier rounds hurts people with high Con. Ditto for other any other ability. See my changes below.
    ...no it doesn't?
    The higher con you have, the more you can use the ability.

    You cannot change BAB. That's static.
    Says who?

    Abilities should be daily or up to 3 times a day and should balance out with each other. Bonuses should always be even numbers.
    I disagree.

    Note since Beast Talent already requires you to take on appropriate talents for your chosen animal, you don't need to reiterate it as a requirement.
    The talents without that listed as a requirement are free pickings. Any laguz can take +2 str, dex, con, and wis.
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    Default Re: The Laguz/Shapeshifter/Therianthrope [3.5 Fire Emblem]

    This is a problem:

    These natural weapons are either rending (1d6+Str for a medium character with a 19-20 critical threat range and a x3 critical damage multiplier)
    No animal has an attack that does that--not even an orca or a shark (not even the huge ones). When my crocodile's tail slap does that, watch out!

    No animal has 2 primary attacks either. So your laguz bear has more attacks than a normal making it a supernatural bear and not an Animal at all.

    With your method, the leguz bear has claws as a primary weapon and a bite as a primary weapon and can use both together AND of those is rending and does 19-20/x3 on top of it. Holy freaking cow, are you kidding me? Seriously, why not throw all the normal animals out the window since none of them are appropriate encounters any more. Hell, not even a lycanthrope is a serous threat. I go into this in detail below.

    Here's what actually annoys me about this. You start off saying that they have an Animalist form but really what they have is souped-up version of an animal which by all rights should make them all Magical Beasts.

    Getting back to the talents.

    List of underpowered talent:

    Acrobat’s Dexterity: You gain a bonus on balance and tumble checks equal to a quarter of your character level, plus two.
    Taken at level 11, you gain +3 to each. Not impressive. My earlier suggestion is still better.

    Armoured Hide: Requires: An animal form known for toughness, such as an elephant. You increase your natural armour bonus to AC equal by a quarter of your character level.
    Since you start with +1, you don't actually gain a benefit from this until you are 4th level. I'm not a fan of this one for that reason. Gain +1 to start and +1 every 4 levels thereafter would be better.

    And then there are the overpowered benefits:

    Bear’s Stamina: An animal form known for not dying, like a bear. You gain additional hit points equal to your ECL, and gain an additional hit point whenever you level up. You gain this benefit regardless of form. You may not take the Lynx's Agility or Wolf's Fang talents.
    Since when are bears known for not dying? Boars at least have ferocity that allows them to act while disabled and even dying. Any time you give benefits to ECL instead of HD you defeat the purpose of LA. So let's give the overpowered races even MOAR power because it. The point of LA is fairness and here you go and blow it out of the water. This screams munchkin at me.

    Friend of the Furred (Ex): Requires: Beast’s Empathy
    You may cast Charm Monster on any animal or Magical beast once per encounter (or once an hour outside of encounters) as part of an action taken to use diplomacy. This is an extraordinary, non mind-affecting ability, which may be used in any form.
    Explain how it is not a mind-affecting ability? Oh right because it's based on charm monster. Pfft. It's a spell-like ability and it is mind-affecting. Saying it isn't is sheer shenanigans. Why is this encounter based even? Are you so keen on 4th edition that you want their mechanics? I don't understand why once an hour either. The charm animal spell lasts one full day per caster level. And you can use it on Magical Beasts.... hmm.
    I see a pied piper in our midsts. Accounting for 8 hours of sleep, you can have 16 magical beasts following you around a day at first level. How is that compared Acrobat's Dexterity? At 20th level (accounting for 8 hours of sleep): that's 320 creatures every day and since the effects last for 20 days... oh, just change your name to "Zookeeper"!

    The summoning of an Animal or Magical Beast at least has the duration limited. See Calling the Pack.

    Grand Endurance:Training your stamina, you gain a +2 competence bonus to your constitution score, regardless of form.
    This should be an enhancement bonus. Instead, it's a competence bonus. It could have been worse; it could have been a circumstance bonus. At least it doesn't stack with itself. This should be required for Break Their Fists.

    Break Their Fists: Your skin shatters foes who strike it. As an immediate action, you may halve the damage of any physical attack that strikes you. If the attack was a melee attack, the foe takes damage equal to your constitution modifier. After using Break Their Fists, you may not use it again for 10-Con mod rounds.
    This is a great two-fer. Not only do you halve the damage you receive, but you can reflect it back at your attacker. The sweet spot is Con 30 because then you can use this every round.

    Heck, with this class I'd try to get my Con up even before my strength because of this.

    Wolverine form starts with Con 19 plus +2 for shifting +2 for Grand Endurance: Con 23 is very nice for a 2nd level talent. You can halve the damage and send back 6 points of damage.

    Plus as a wolverine, I'd now have rending claws and destructive bite instead of my natural attacks. Since Str is +2 for shifting my claws cause 1d6+3/19-20/x3 points of damage each and my bite causes 1d8+5/20/x2 points of damage.


    One crit hit and I cause 80 points of damage, take half damage every 4 rounds and reflect back 6 points when hit and this is only 2nd level.
    9x3=27 x2 = 54 points of claw damage plus 13x2=26 = 80 points of damage on a critical hit.

    How in the heck does getting 2 points in a skill even come close to that?

    For my next talent I take Festooned With Fangs and gain 2 secondary attacks. Apparently I grow extra mouths or a second set of legs so I have enough limbs for this. Please explain how a a wolverine with 3 mouths looks oh so natural or one with 6 legs? This is only 3rd level mind you. Secondary natural attacks come from getting extra limbs not from having a high BAB.

    Festooned with Fangs: You gain two secondary natural weapons, of either of the two types you initially chose from.
    Because my mama raised no fool, I'm going with more mouths to maximize my damage.

    Attack: 2 claws causing 1d6+3/19-20/x3 points of damage each and primary bite causing 1d8+5/20/x2 points of damage and 2 secondary bites causing 1d8+2/20/x2 points of damage each.

    A crit does 80 points of primary damage and 10x2x2 or 40 points of damage for my secondary attacks.

    So one critical hit now does 80 points or damage for my primary attacks and 40 points of damage for my secondary.

    At 3rd level, in my now rather grotesque wolverine form, I cause 120 points of damage on critical hit. And that doesn't even include any benefits from feats I should have.

    Explain balance to me again, because I am not seeing it.

    Debby
    Last edited by Debihuman; 2013-08-09 at 10:47 AM.
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    Default Re: The Laguz/Shapeshifter/Therianthrope [3.5 Fire Emblem]

    Quote Originally Posted by Debihuman View Post
    This is a problem:

    No animal has an attack that does that--not even an orca or a shark (not even the huge ones). When my crocodile's tail slap does that, watch out!

    No animal has 2 primary attacks either. So your laguz bear has more attacks than a normal making it a supernatural bear and not an Animal at all.

    With your method, the leguz bear has claws as a primary weapon and a bite as a primary weapon and can use both together AND of those is rending and does 19-20/x3 on top of it. Holy freaking cow, are you kidding me? Seriously, why not throw all the normal animals out the window since none of them are appropriate encounters any more. Hell, not even a lycanthrope is a serous threat. I go into this in detail below.

    Here's what actually annoys me about this. You start off saying that they have an Animalist form but really what they have is souped-up version of an animal which by all rights should make them all Magical Beasts.
    ...big deal?
    Souped up version of animal = magical beast. That's what a magical beast is. (It's a redundant type, honestly, but I'm not remaking the /entire/ system.)

    List of underpowered talent:

    Taken at level 11, you gain +3 to each. Not impressive. My earlier suggestion is still better.
    At level 11, that gives +4 to each. +5 at level twelve. It's identical to yours, but scales better and further.

    Since you start with +1, you don't actually gain a benefit from this until you are 4th level. I'm not a fan of this one for that reason. Gain +1 to start and +1 every 4 levels thereafter would be better.
    That's a good point.

    Since when are bears known for not dying? Boars at least have ferocity that allows them to act while disabled and even dying. Any time you give benefits to ECL instead of HD you defeat the purpose of LA. So let's give the overpowered races even MOAR power because it. The point of LA is fairness and here you go and blow it out of the water. This screams munchkin at me.
    (shrugs, changes to boar)
    LA is pretty underpowered. The disadvantage of LA is /not getting an HD that level/. You don't need to make all their other stuff weaker as well.

    Explain how it is not a mind-affecting ability? Oh right because it's based on charm monster. Pfft. It's a spell-like ability and it is mind-affecting. Saying it isn't is sheer shenanigans. Why is this encounter based even? Are you so keen on 4th edition that you want their mechanics? I don't understand why once an hour either. The charm animal spell lasts one full day per caster level. And you can use it on Magical Beasts.... hmm.
    I see a pied piper in our midsts. Accounting for 8 hours of sleep, you can have 16 magical beasts following you around a day at first level. How is that compared Acrobat's Dexterity? At 20th level (accounting for 8 hours of sleep): that's 320 creatures every day and since the effects last for 20 days... oh, just change your name to "Zookeeper"!
    It's not mind-affecting because it's based on persuasion, rather than enchantment. If diplomacy is considered mind-affecting, I will happily call this mind-affecting.
    Encounter-based stuff is one of the good ideas from 4e. Very few things are strong enough that they need to be per day.
    That said, you should only have one charm at once.

    This should be an enhancement bonus. Instead, it's a competence bonus. It could have been worse; it could have been a circumstance bonus. At least it doesn't stack with itself. This should be required for Break Their Fists.
    It's not an enhancement bonus because every emblem class has attributes that they are meant to be better at. If it were an enhancement bonus, anyone could duplicate it with a handful of gold.

    This is a great two-fer. Not only do you halve the damage you receive, but you can reflect it back at your attacker. The sweet spot is Con 30 because then you can use this every round.

    Heck, with this class I'd try to get my Con up even before my strength because of this.
    Yes? That's intentional?

    Wolverine form starts with Con 19 plus +2 for shifting +2 for Grand Endurance: Con 23 is very nice for a 2nd level talent. You can halve the damage and send back 6 points of damage.
    How are you starting with Con 19?
    ...you don't get a wolverine's attributes. I thought this was obvious but I'll clarify.

    Plus as a wolverine, I'd now have rending claws and destructive bite instead of my natural attacks. Since Str is +2 for shifting my claws cause 1d6+3/19-20/x3 points of damage each and my bite causes 1d8+5/20/x2 points of damage.
    ...yes?

    One crit hit and I cause 80 points of damage, take half damage every 4 rounds and reflect back 6 points when hit and this is only 2nd level.
    9x3=27 x2 = 54 points of claw damage plus 13x2=26 = 80 points of damage on a critical hit.
    Whut.
    First off, you have /two/ weapons. That's three. Second, why are you maximising your damage? A crit will do 12-27, and then a second, less likely crit will do 12-26.
    Yknow what? A 19 and a 20 to hit should earn you 53 damage. Especially as a barbarian can easily throw out... lessee. Str 18 base, plus 4 for rage... 2d6+9... 22-52 damage on a crit. And they have better BAB.

    For my next talent I take Festooned With Fangs and gain 2 secondary attacks. Apparently I grow extra mouths or a second set of legs so I have enough limbs for this. Please explain how a a wolverine with 3 mouths looks oh so natural or one with 6 legs? This is only 3rd level mind you. Secondary natural attacks come from getting extra limbs not from having a high BAB.
    Fluff it how you like.

    So one critical hit now does 80 points or damage for my primary attacks and 40 points of damage for my secondary.
    ...how are you turning one critical hit into five critical hits at once? And not considering you have to roll a threat at all?
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    Default Re: The Laguz/Shapeshifter/Therianthrope [3.5 Fire Emblem]

    Quote Originally Posted by Lix Lorn View Post
    How are you starting with Con 19?
    ...you don't get a wolverine's attributes. I thought this was obvious but I'll clarify.
    When you shift into form of an animal do you use the animal's stats or your own? It wasn't clear. Then again. I could roll 18 for Con and at first level I get +2 to all attributes for 20 Con at first level. Buy points can bump it higher.

    It says, "While in hybrid or animal form, the Laguz enjoys a +1 bonus to natural armour, and gains a +2 bonus to each of his physical ability scores."

    No "Whut"...you wrote it.

    3 bites = 3 mouths. No fluff about it. Creatures do not get iterative attacks with natural weapon and their attacks are based on the number of limbs they have. To get 3 bites, they need 3 mouths. See here: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbi...naturalWeapons
    generally, a creature can make one bite attack, one attack per claw or tentacle, one gore attack, one sting attack, or one slam attack (although Large creatures with arms or arm-like limbs can make a slam attack with each arm). Refer to the individual monster descriptions.
    First off, you have /two/ weapons. That's three. Second, why are you maximising your damage? A crit will do 12-27, and then a second, less likely crit will do 12-26.
    You have 2 claws and a bite which IS 3 attacks. I was making a point with maximized damage and all crits. Odds of that happening are extremely low. But weirder things have happened.

    If you mean that even if the animal normally has 2 claws and a bite, you can only take 1 claw and a bite or 2 claws then you needed to clarify that. Claws generally come in pairs. How are you not getting the attacks that the natural animal gets? If you aren't, then you're not playing the animal correctly.

    What do you do with creatures that only have ONE attack? Some birds use both of their claws in a single attack (this is commonly noted as "talons" while claws are generally paired primary attacks).

    This whole class is fairly FUBARed. You can make primary attacks with attacks that shouldn't be but can't with ones that should be.

    So you're willing to gimp the animal's natural attacks for number but prefer to overpower them? That makes this class look nothing like the animal they're supposed to resemble. Why bother with Animals at all then? They should all just be weird Magical Beasts that are very loosely based on Animals.

    Yknow what? A 19 and a 20 to hit should earn you 53 damage. Especially as a barbarian can easily throw out... lessee. Str 18 base, plus 4 for rage... 2d6+9... 22-52 damage on a crit. And they have better BAB.


    1d6+4x3=22 points of damage for the claw. If you take 2 claws you want me to believe that one claw can do that but the other claw has to be 1d8+2x2? So I have one big claw and one puny one?

    This has the most FUBARed Animals on the planet. In a world with mutants I might allow this class but a shifter class that turns you into a freak of nature was not what I was expecting. While you may think the fluff is unimportant, I think Form follows function. When I see stuff that makes no sense, I'm gonna call it out.

    This class just isn't doing it for me.... sorry.

    Debby

    P.S.
    Just to mention my own home rule: I've never used confirmed crits in my game. I figure it just slows down combat and makes rolling that first crit hit less exciting.
    Last edited by Debihuman; 2013-08-09 at 10:32 PM.
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    Default Re: The Laguz/Shapeshifter/Therianthrope [3.5 Fire Emblem]

    I am deeply confused by the fact that you can argue 'this doesn't fit the fluff perfectly' and 'this is the optimised route' in the same post.
    The idea is that you use talents to get the creature. If your creature has two claws and a bite, you take the extra weapons talent.

    Secondly, mechanics are secondary to fluff. Even in the section you quoted, it says 'generally'.
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    Default Re: The Laguz/Shapeshifter/Therianthrope [3.5 Fire Emblem]

    Quote Originally Posted by Lix Lorn View Post
    I am deeply confused by the fact that you can argue 'this doesn't fit the fluff perfectly' and 'this is the optimised route' in the same post.
    The idea is that you use talents to get the creature. If your creature has two claws and a bite, you take the extra weapons talent.

    Secondly, mechanics are secondary to fluff. Even in the section you quoted, it says 'generally'.
    Generally, I expect a class to do what it says it is going to do. Yours does not. You don't shift into a normal animal form, you gain a bunch of bonuses for no good reason, and most of your attacks are just plain weird and unwieldy. Furthermore, you have no rules on hybrid forms at all.

    Your chart seems messed up. You have an asterisk for the saves but no explanation as to why. It seems that the Laguz have all poor saving throws. This ameliorates some of their other abilities that are distinctly overpowered.

    I like a couple of talents, a couple are underwhelming but the majority are overpowered.

    Creatures don't suddenly sprout new attacks as if they found them like manufactured weapons. A creature with 2 bites has 2 mouths or extra set of jaws (like aliens). Since all your "animal" attacks are supposed to be like animals, it would make sense if they actually did that.

    You haven't got much fluff, but you do have a few badly designed mechanics. Giving out extra natural attacks is bad. Giving out inappropriate attacks is bad. Giving out +2 to all abilities is BAD (although to be fair it only applies to the hybrid form so that should be okay).

    When you change into a fox you probably aren't going to have the same stats as if you change into a baleen whale. If you do, you'll either be a very lame whale or a grossly overpowered fox. Either way, it's bound to cause problems. It also means that anyone playing this class will have to recalculate his scores every time there's a miniscule change. It's bound to be more taxing than it's worth.

    Here are my major objections. At first level you get: 2 natural attacks, one of which is grossly overpowered as you get increased threat range and triple damage and the second is a primary attack that you can use with the first even if it doesn't make sense; you gain the ability to take animal form (with no limits to size or CR or any other limiting factor that would be fair to anyone NOT playing this class); you gain +2 to all your abilities; you gain +1 natural armor; and then you pick a talent.

    Your talents vary wildly in power so a few would never be used and a few are distinctly abusable.

    You have ideas that aren't fleshed out (no rules for hybrids at all) and mechanics that are based on ECL instead of HD so that the munchkin players get to be even more powerful thereby alienating anyone who would want to play a more traditional race.

    Overall, I find this class to be somewhat ill-conceived and at times, badly executed. It's a shame because the premise was a good one. That said, I really don't think it is impossible to fix. To wit, I've updated the changes I previously made to the talents list (not that it really matters since you're not likely to be swayed in this endeavor but I figured the least I could do is make the effort. I also alphabetized the list though I haven't finished formatting it with bolding yet).

    Debby
    Last edited by Debihuman; 2013-08-10 at 08:30 AM.
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    Default Re: The Laguz/Shapeshifter/Therianthrope [3.5 Fire Emblem]

    Ooh, this is more useful.

    Quote Originally Posted by Debihuman View Post
    Generally, I expect a class to do what it says it is going to do. Yours does not. You don't shift into a normal animal form, you gain a bunch of bonuses for no good reason, and most of your attacks are just plain weird and unwieldy. Furthermore, you have no rules on hybrid forms at all.
    If you shift into an animal exactly as written, you have several problems. Some animals will be vastly OP, some will be massively UP. Many of them are too strong for first level, and this class is meant to let you play a were-kraken without being epic level. This is a generic class. Every animal uses the same rules as base. You simulate the actual animal using talents.

    Your chart seems messed up. You have an asterisk for the saves but no explanation as to why. It seems that the Laguz have all poor saving throws. This ameliorates some of their other abilities that are distinctly overpowered.
    I remain unconvinced that it's massively OP, except possibly taking festooned with fangs at level one.

    Creatures don't suddenly sprout new attacks as if they found them like manufactured weapons. A creature with 2 bites has 2 mouths or extra set of jaws (like aliens). Since all your "animal" attacks are supposed to be like animals, it would make sense if they actually did that.
    You are... remarkably fixated on sticking to the rules as written with natural attacks. I know it's a thing I'm bad at, but I'm ignoring them on purpose this time.

    You haven't got much fluff, but you do have a few badly designed mechanics. Giving out extra natural attacks is bad. Giving out inappropriate attacks is bad. Giving out +2 to all abilities is BAD (although to be fair it only applies to the hybrid form so that should be okay).
    ...I disagree.

    When you change into a fox you probably aren't going to have the same stats as if you change into a baleen whale. If you do, you'll either be a very lame whale or a grossly overpowered fox. Either way, it's bound to cause problems. It also means that anyone playing this class will have to recalculate his scores every time there's a miniscule change. It's bound to be more taxing than it's worth.
    This is true. If you're playing a whale, you put points into con, and take defensive talents. If you're a fox, you max dex and cha, and take those talents.
    The baseline mechanics don't change. Cause if I represent foxes and whales accurately, they won't be balanced.

    Here are my major objections. At first level you get: 2 natural attacks, one of which is grossly overpowered as you get increased threat range and triple damage and the second is a primary attack that you can use with the first even if it doesn't make sense; you gain the ability to take animal form (with no limits to size or CR or any other limiting factor that would be fair to anyone NOT playing this class); you gain +2 to all your abilities; you gain +1 natural armor; and then you pick a talent.
    I think you massively overestimate the power of the crits. Since, in your own example, they did about the same damage on a crit, and the rending one does noticeably less when not critting, to make up for critting more.

    You have ideas that aren't fleshed out (no rules for hybrids at all) and mechanics that are based on ECL instead of HD so that the munchkin players get to be even more powerful thereby alienating anyone who would want to play a more traditional race.
    Shifting is mechanically closer to rage than wild shape. I think this is where you're getting confused.
    And I still disagree with your thoughts on ECL.
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    Default Re: The Laguz/Shapeshifter/Therianthrope [3.5 Fire Emblem]

    Quote Originally Posted by Lix Lorn View Post
    If you shift into an animal exactly as written, you have several problems. Some animals will be vastly OP, some will be massively UP. Many of them are too strong for first level, and this class is meant to let you play a were-kraken without being epic level. This is a generic class. Every animal uses the same rules as base. You simulate the actual animal using talents.
    No kidding. That's why you limit it by CR and possibly size too, but you don't. How can you play a were-kraken without being epic while having it be fair to other players? That's not possible. Granted a duck might be overpowered but since you want to give it two attacks instead of a normal duck bite and it has flights, that's looking a lot less underpowered compared to a halfing thief.

    I remain unconvinced that it's massively OP, except possibly taking festooned with fangs at level one.
    Stat one up.

    You are... remarkably fixated on sticking to the rules as written with natural attacks. I know it's a thing I'm bad at, but I'm ignoring them on purpose this time.
    And you're intent on breaking them to the point where no game master in his or her right mind would allow this. I don't mind bending the the rules. However, I see no good reason to break them for the sheer reason of overpowering and playing favorites. This is a piece of advice: until you are really good with the rules, don't break 'em. Or at least don't break them in overpowered munchkinny ways.

    You already get a huge benefit by shape changing in any animal you want and then you have to make the most uber-animal you can. I call shenanigans on it. I'd never play one and I'd never allow one in my game.


    ...I disagree.
    If you don't see the problems inherent in giving out free attacks, I would say would you start a class that allowed everyone in it to start with Two Weapon proficiency and a +1 double sided weapon for free? Probably not. That's kinda what you just did.

    This is true. If you're playing a whale, you put points into con, and take defensive talents. If you're a fox, you max dex and cha, and take those talents.
    Nope. You can max out con on any animal you take. No reason not to. With a fox you might want to be stealthy but since you have great claw attacks (or bite), it's not really necessary. Plus, you have no rules on how you should allocate your abilities. It's up to the Player to decide how to allocate his character.

    The baseline mechanics don't change. Cause if I represent foxes and whales accurately, they won't be balanced.
    You have no menchanic for allocating them one way or the other. You can't just eyeball it. That's not fair to anyone who sees things differently from you. And powergamers and rules lawyers will be all over it like white on rice.


    I think you massively overestimate the power of the crits. Since, in your own example, they did about the same damage on a crit, and the rending one does noticeably less when not critting, to make up for critting more.
    You lost me there. It's not about the critical damage so much; I was using it as an example. However, critical attacks can come into play. It means that now, are these right for the CR that standard creatures are set? I'm not convinced they are. I think these are overpowered for CR.

    A first level human fighter is CR 1; how does a first level human laguz compare?

    Shifting is mechanically closer to rage than wild shape. I think this is where you're getting confused.
    No rage just let's you lose control and take advantage of greater Strength ala the Hulk but after it ends there are consequences and you can only do this a limited of times per day and only once per encounter.

    Here is rage (bolded section are for reference)
    Rage (Ex): A barbarian can fly into a rage a certain number of times per day. In a rage, a barbarian temporarily gains a +4 bonus to Strength, a +4 bonus to Constitution, and a +2 morale bonus on Will saves, but he takes a -2 penalty to Armor Class. The increase in Constitution increases the barbarian’s hit points by 2 points per level, but these hit points go away at the end of the rage when his Constitution score drops back to normal. (These extra hit points are not lost first the way temporary hit points are.) While raging, a barbarian cannot use any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (except for Balance, Escape Artist, Intimidate, and Ride), the Concentration skill, or any abilities that require patience or concentration, nor can he cast spells or activate magic items that require a command word, a spell trigger (such as a wand), or spell completion (such as a scroll) to function. He can use any feat he has except Combat Expertise, item creation feats, and metamagic feats. A fit of rage lasts for a number of rounds equal to 3 + the character’s (newly improved) Constitution modifier. A barbarian may prematurely end his rage. At the end of the rage, the barbarian loses the rage modifiers and restrictions and becomes fatigued (-2 penalty to Strength, -2 penalty to Dexterity, can’t charge or run) for the duration of the current encounter (unless he is a 17th-level barbarian, at which point this limitation no longer applies)

    A barbarian can fly into a rage only once per encounter. At 1st level he can use his rage ability once per day. At 4th level and every four levels thereafter, he can use it one additional time per day (to a maximum of six times per day at 20th level). Entering a rage takes no time itself, but a barbarian can do it only during his action, not in response to someone else’s action.
    None of your features have such limitations.

    And I still disagree with your thoughts on ECL.
    And you are free to do so. I'm just pointing out why I think your class is overpowered.

    Debby
    Last edited by Debihuman; 2013-08-10 at 05:22 PM.
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    Default Re: The Laguz/Shapeshifter/Therianthrope [3.5 Fire Emblem]

    Quote Originally Posted by Debihuman View Post
    No kidding. That's why you limit it by CR and possibly size too, but you don't. How can you play a were-kraken without being epic while having it be fair to other players? That's not possible. Granted a duck might be overpowered but since you want to give it two attacks instead of a normal duck bite and it has flights, that's looking a lot less underpowered compared to a halfing thief.
    See, one of the goals of the class is to let you play a were-kraken or rhino or whatever from level one. You're likely to resemble an octopus to start with, but you don't have six LA and two dozen hit dice.

    Stat one up.
    The most OP damage output you can get at level 1 is +5/+5 2d6+7, or +6/+6 1d10+9. Compare to barbarian, who manages +8 2d6+10, and yeah, the damage is a little better. That said, barbarian is not a good balance point.

    Or at least don't break them in overpowered munchkinny ways.
    Starting to get offended now.

    You already get a huge benefit by shape changing in any animal you want and then you have to make the most uber-animal you can. I call shenanigans on it. I'd never play one and I'd never allow one in my game.
    You pick ONE animal. Just one.

    If you don't see the problems inherent in giving out free attacks, I would say would you start a class that allowed everyone in it to start with Two Weapon proficiency and a +1 double sided weapon for free? Probably not. That's kinda what you just did.
    Doesn't exactly sound OP. TWF kinda sucks.

    Nope. You can max out con on any animal you take. No reason not to. With a fox you might want to be stealthy but since you have great claw attacks (or bite), it's not really necessary. Plus, you have no rules on how you should allocate your abilities. It's up to the Player to decide how to allocate his character.
    Yes. It is. And if they want to play a hulking foxman, they can.

    You have no menchanic for allocating them one way or the other. You can't just eyeball it. That's not fair to anyone who sees things differently from you. And powergamers and rules lawyers will be all over it like white on rice.
    Powergamers are over /everything./ And this is really irrelevant? The choice of animal is primarily fluff.

    You lost me there. It's not about the critical damage so much; I was using it as an example. However, critical attacks can come into play. It means that now, are these right for the CR that standard creatures are set? I'm not convinced they are. I think these are overpowered for CR.

    A first level human fighter is CR 1; how does a first level human laguz compare?
    They're better, because fighters are terrible.

    No rage just let's you lose control and take advantage of greater Strength ala the Hulk but after it ends there are consequences and you can only do this a limited of times per day and only once per encounter.

    Here is rage (bolded section are for reference)

    None of your features have such limitations.
    While barbarians are also not great, they can always take extra rage and be pretty much golden.
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    Default Re: The Laguz/Shapeshifter/Therianthrope [3.5 Fire Emblem]

    Peacock's Many Masks doesn't give you any mechanical bonus at all. I think you mean you can appear as a different age category when you say young as a child (as size is taken care of by other talents) or as a different sex. Should you gain an additional bonus to your Disguise skill?

    Debby
    Last edited by Debihuman; 2013-08-12 at 10:20 AM.
    P.E.A.C.H. Please Evaluate And Critique Honestly. Being nicer and kinder doesn't hurt either. Note I generally only critique 3.5 and Pathfinder material.
    Please, please, please when using non-core material, cite to the books. There are too many books to wade through to find the one with the feat, special ability or spell you use.
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    Silva Stormrage's Avatar

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    Default Re: The Laguz/Shapeshifter/Therianthrope [3.5 Fire Emblem]

    Quote Originally Posted by Debihuman View Post
    Peacock's Many Masks doesn't give you any mechanical bonus at all. I think you mean you can appear as a different age category when you say young as a child (as size is taken care of by other talents) or as a different sex. Should you gain an additional bonus to your Disguise skill?

    Debby
    I think +10 is the bonus for looking exactly like the subject, the rest of disguise is acting like the subject. Thats why polymorph only gives +10 to disguise even if you make it so that you look identical to the subject. Or at least thats how I always saw it. An extra bonus might be applicable but its not needed necessarily IMO.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazuki View Post
    ...Silva, you are a scary person.
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    Lix Lorn's Avatar

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    Default Re: The Laguz/Shapeshifter/Therianthrope [3.5 Fire Emblem]

    It's mostly for fluff, but I can give it the ability to negate penalties...
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