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  1. - Top - End - #301
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: OOTS #909 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Krim View Post
    And you would think Tarquin and Malack already taught us that lesson but...some people never learn.

    Look, Evil is not one happy Family, and Durkon is now an Evil creature that wants to live for eternity. Therefore, he has ALL the reason in the world to stop Xykon, and the best way to do it is to keep with his former OotS mates, specially considering none else has even tried.

    Then, he will, of course, want revenge, destruction, suffering and dead to all who have wronged him, as an evil creature. And those, OF COURSE happen to be the dwarves in his homeland. FFS, he IS destined to do so by the Oracle, it can not get anymore obvious. But that doesn't mean he wants to confront the OotS, not as long as they don't stand in his way, and currently they do not.
    The only member of the OotS to "wrong" Durkon in the past was Belkar. Roy was the first human friend he ever made, Haley recovered objects stolen from him, Elan may have annoyed him with some of antics, but he never wronged him, and V was always civil to Durkon. That leaves Belkar, who is also the only one to outright attack Durkon now without provocation. I think Durkon will swallow the insult for now, but I don't think he'll provide any healing for Belkar anytime soon. He certainly won't cast a costly spell like Restoration (100 gp worth of diamond dust as material component) unless Roy orders him to and Belkar apologizes.

    Also, Roy has a weapon that can probably 3-shot him (wonder if Starmetal bypasses Vamp's DM? at the discrection of the DM I guess..) That helps, too.
    I think starmetal's special property is: Does whatever Rich Burlew orders it to.

  2. - Top - End - #302
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: OOTS #909 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by symirel View Post
    Loved it. Can't wait for V's return/reaction.
    I would assume Vs watching this unfold on the TV.. He/She will be up to speed as soon as He/She pops back and digs them self out (Hopefully he/she is not too deep)

  3. - Top - End - #303
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Planetar

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    Default Re: OOTS #909 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    Hopefully, someone will remind him of that incident. "Remember when you attacked Elan, and we didn't kill you because you stood down? Well, Durkon is standing down, and he won't hit you with his hammer as long as you avoid looking like a nale."
    Nobody else commented, but allow me to acknowledge your pun with a rimshot.

    :RIMSHOT:

    :Hits the cymbals:

    It WAS a good pun and deserved recognition.

    Respectfully,

    Brian P.
    "Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later, that debt is paid."

    -Valery Legasov in Chernobyl

  4. - Top - End - #304
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: OOTS #909 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by gerryq View Post
    Whether it is or not, it is in the storyline of BtVS.

    Frankly, the ceaseless labelling of words as racial or ethnic (you mean ethnic, right) slurs seems pointless to me. If I don't like gypsies, making me call them Roma won't make me like them any better.
    The term "Gypsy" is short for "Egyptian", which is where some Medeival Europeans thought the Roman and Sinti came from. The Roma and Sinti originated in Central Asia, had nothing to do with Egypt, and the term was meant to be derogatory. If you listen carefully, only Darla and Angelus refer to the Kaldaresh as Gypsies; Ms. Kalender and her Uncle refer to their family as part of the "People". (In season five, Spike refers to Dracula as using "Gypsy tricks", but this is refering to a type of magic, since Dracula was Wallachi, not Roma.)

  5. - Top - End - #305
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    DwarfFighterGirl

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    Default Re: OOTS #909 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    I think it's quite a stretch to classify Elan's desire for his family to be fixed as selfish.
    Yet he broke out of the dream when he realized it should be protested, that it was his dream, but in real terms, it was wrong for his mother.

  6. - Top - End - #306
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    Wolv90's Avatar

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    Default Re: OOTS #909 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by afbourque View Post
    I wonder if there was actually anything interesting in Durkon's spiel that was missed between comics.
    "Hey, maybe we'll find out as a bonus in one of the books!"
    "Maybe never"
    "Yeah probably that"

  7. - Top - End - #307
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    BlueKnightGuy

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    Default Re: OOTS #909 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfdreams01 View Post
    In other words, having a vampire cleric on the team lets the OOTS turn do some "strategic jujitsu" and turn some of the enemy's own power against themselves.
    Which would mean a lot more if they actually employed some of that. In much the same way Durkon forgot his racial bonuses and such, Roy forgets he has an impressive INT score for the most part. When he uses his head, the Order is a formidable force.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kairos Theodosian
    It appears someone will have to saddle my goat, for we now must ride out in glorious battle.

  8. - Top - End - #308
    Halfling in the Playground
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    Default Re: OOTS #909 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by gerryq View Post
    It was the helpfulness in panels #1 and #2, and the smile in panel #2 that made me feel that. He wants to be a team-mate. Or he wants to be *perceived* as a team-mate.
    Being helpful to your buddies fits Lawful Evil just fine, betraying them not so much. Durkon was Lawful Good before becoming a vamp, so he's probably LE currently.

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    Firbolg in the Playground
     
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    Default 909: Elemental victory clarification

    The artwork is a little bit ambiguous so I have to ask.

    Did the OOTS *defeat* the elemental, or did it's summon timer run out?

    The last time An Elemental was defeated in strip , it had X's in its eyes after Tsukiko blew it away.

    There are no X's in the eyes of the Silicon elemental. So I conclude that the Order did NOT compel it to leave the material plane. Instead, it's summon timer ran out and it left anyway.

    ...

    You don't get XP for summoned monsters, do you? Therefore it doesn't make a different, does it?

    Respectfully,

    Brian P.
    "Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later, that debt is paid."

    -Valery Legasov in Chernobyl

  10. - Top - End - #310
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: 909: Elemental victory clarification

    Summoned monsters don't actually die, so maybe that's why there are no X's in its eyes. Maybe the chlorine elemental was called.
    THE SCRYING EYE AT THE END OF STRIP #698 WAS ZZ'DTRI'S (SOURCE)

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    Default Re: OOTS #909 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by pendell View Post
    Nobody else commented, but allow me to acknowledge your pun with a rimshot.
    I did, with a "Nicely put".
    Marut-2 Avatar by Serpentine
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    MindFlayer

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    Default Re: 909: Elemental victory clarification

    Generally you don't get XP for summoned monsters, no.

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    Oko and Qailee's Avatar

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    Default Re: 909: Elemental victory clarification

    I'm pretty sure the timer was up. It's pretty consistent that in OotS dead = X's in the eyes.

    As for exp, technically no, you don't, it counts as part of the person who summoned it and they didn't defeat redcloak. You can argue for it though, and any reasonable DM would probably give exp.
    (Currently afk halfway across the country.)

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    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Planetar

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    Default Re: 909: Elemental victory clarification

    Quote Originally Posted by Gift Jeraff View Post
    Summoned monsters don't actually die, so maybe that's why there are no X's in its eyes. Maybe the chlorine elemental was called.
    We've never seen Redcloak call in strip, but we have seen him use summon monster twice (once for the fiendish elephant, once for the silicon elemental). So I think the Chlorine elemental was likewise a summon.

    Respectfully,

    Brian P.
    "Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later, that debt is paid."

    -Valery Legasov in Chernobyl

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    Default Re: 909: Elemental victory clarification

    Quote Originally Posted by Oko and Qailee View Post
    I'm pretty sure the timer was up. It's pretty consistent that in OotS dead = X's in the eyes.
    And also, the elemental seemed surprised that the time was up. If he had been killed, he wouldn't be surprised, I guess.
    Power equals power

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    Halfling in the Playground
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    Default Re: 909: Elemental victory clarification

    Quote Originally Posted by pendell View Post
    We've never seen Redcloak call in strip, but we have seen him use summon monster twice (once for the fiendish elephant, once for the silicon elemental). So I think the Chlorine elemental was likewise a summon.
    Also, it takes 10 minutes to cast a Planar Ally spell, and only one full round to cast a Summon Monster spell, so I agree with you.

    However, even though we haven't seen Redcloak in the act of calling (probably because it would be unnecessary to the plot), I'm almost certain that he called the devils used to destroy the Azure City Resistance, given their payment and their subsequent shifting back to their home plane.

  17. - Top - End - #317
    Giant in the Playground Administrator
     
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    Default Re: 909: Elemental victory clarification

    No, it was "killed." I just didn't go back to look how I've handled the eyes in the past. Since the elemental isn't really dead, just returned to wherever it came from, I didn't think X's were appropriate. Apparently I felt differently back then. Probably because with the sand, I had a nice visual option for it vanishing in a puff of sand cloud, and with the chlorine I didn't.

    If the timer had run out, I would have made some comment along the lines of having someone say, "Huh, it vanished!" or something. I would have called it out. Instead, I put it right after a scene of everyone attacking at full strength. Context trumps art consistency, sometimes.
    Rich Burlew


    Utterly Dwarfed, the sixth compilation of The Order of the Stick is now in stock. Order at Ookoodook (paper copies) or Gumroad (digital PDFs), or pick it up from your local gaming store.

  18. - Top - End - #318
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    Default Re: 909: Elemental victory clarification

    Quote Originally Posted by pendell View Post
    You don't get XP for summoned monsters, do you? Therefore it doesn't make a different, does it?
    Normally you don't get XP for summoned monsters, the rationale being that the ability to summon them is part of the summoner's CR: "You don't get more XP because an enemy wizard cast Fireball, why would you get more XP because the wizard used the same slot to cast Summon Monster III instead?" However, they didn't fight Redcloak.

    In one module, summoned monsters constitute an entire encounter, as with the elemental (the summoner doesn't stick around to fight). The rule given in that module is to treat the summoned creatures as an encounter of their standard CR, with a -50% ad hoc XP adjustment because of their temporary duration and susceptibility to being dispelled.
    Quote Originally Posted by pendell View Post
    We've never seen Redcloak call in strip,
    No, but we've seen him pay off his planar allies.
    Last edited by Kish; 2013-08-09 at 11:41 AM.
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    "The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present--they are real." --Aral Vorkosigan

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

  19. - Top - End - #319
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    MindFlayer

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    Default Re: OOTS #909 - The Discussion Thread

    I wonder if the uncast Thor's Hammer spell still constitutes a Chekov's Gun waiting to fire? We expected Durkon to use it in this fight, but he didn't need it. Are we going to move on to preparing new spells, or should we still expect something from this possible plot point?

  20. - Top - End - #320
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    DwarfClericGuy

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    Default Re: OOTS #909 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ilerien View Post
    Well, Durkula is clearly not amused, but he isn't even trying to defend himself...
    He has damage resistance now, given that Durkon didn't really react to Belkar's attack it's safe to say Belkar's daggers are not magical. Also, showing the rest of the OotS that he can control himself is pretty important to his long term survival.

  21. - Top - End - #321
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    Default Re: OOTS #909 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by SavageWombat View Post
    I wonder if the uncast Thor's Hammer spell still constitutes a Chekov's Gun waiting to fire? We expected Durkon to use it in this fight, but he didn't need it. Are we going to move on to preparing new spells, or should we still expect something from this possible plot point?
    In addition to that Gun, I'm waiting for the "enough diamond dust for one more Resurrection" mention to have some relevance. Along with some of you, I thought Haley was going to need it. Now? I'm not sure where it'll get used, if it gets used at all. The new and improved Durkon doesn't sound eager to be staked and resurrected. Maybe that'll change.

  22. - Top - End - #322
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    DwarfClericGuy

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    Default Re: OOTS #909 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Scifne View Post
    Until we see differently in comic, the concept that vampires must be killed is one that even Durkon believed in when he found out Malack was a vampire. Belkar is not outside of Durkon's belief system here.

    That the party has been travelling with a morally questionable Belkar all along does not mean that Belkar is wrong to reject a vampireized team mate now. As a game situation -- this is tricky in one way (how to play with an evil team mate?), but as a story, it is tricky in another. Has Belkar become a voice of conscience ?
    Not by a longshot. Durkon did as he was commanded to by Malack, he had no free will of his own. Belkar is fully in control of himself, albeit with exceptionally poor judgment, like that time he was in Azure city jail lamenting having only been charged with 2nd degree murder "I totally premeditated!"

    The moment Durkon got his free will back he started helping the OotS. He snapped Z's neck and threatened to drain Nale's blood just to get rid of them so he could help Roy and everyone. So maybe he doesn't respect life anymore, maybe he's a bit more selfish now, it's not his fault, he didn't ask to become a Vampire anymore than Malack did. It will be interesting to learn Durkon's feelings about his fate. Right now he seems to be describing to Roy the 'new normal' of his existence, as though he's accepted it. Malack said when Durkon offered to resurrect him that it would just be another way of destroying the person he became, so it will be interesting to see how Durkon might respond to the opportunity to have his Dwarf-manity (humanoidity?) restored should it present itself.

    Basically, OotS exchanged a 'good cop' for a more powerful 'bad cop'.

  23. - Top - End - #323
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    MindFlayer

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    Default Re: OOTS #909 - The Discussion Thread

    Think of it as a player who, having been given a card from his DM saying "you are now a vampire - see below" trying to sum up the changes to his character for his friend.

    He either hasn't thought about or isn't talking about the role-playing implications - just a quick run down on "the vampire template and implications for my clerical powers."

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    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Planetar

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    Default Re: 909: Elemental victory clarification

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    No, it was "killed." I just didn't go back to look how I've handled the eyes in the past. Since the elemental isn't really dead, just returned to wherever it came from, I didn't think X's were appropriate. Apparently I felt differently back then. Probably because with the sand, I had a nice visual option for it vanishing in a puff of sand cloud, and with the chlorine I didn't.

    If the timer had run out, I would have made some comment along the lines of having someone say, "Huh, it vanished!" or something. I would have called it out. Instead, I put it right after a scene of everyone attacking at full strength. Context trumps art consistency, sometimes.
    Thank you for the clarification. I'll stick this in the Index of Comments unless someone has already beat me to it.

    Respectfully,

    Brian P.
    "Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later, that debt is paid."

    -Valery Legasov in Chernobyl

  25. - Top - End - #325
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    DwarfClericGuy

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    Default Re: OOTS #909 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Scifne View Post
    Lol.

    I'm struck that Belkar was the only one who had a selfless dream back in the pyramid. Maybe I'm reading too much into that. Time and encounters will tell how much is a changing character and how much is confusion.
    His dream was peaceful, but I don't see it necessarily as selfless that he would want to imagine spending time with someone he looked up to for being a Master BS artist.

  26. - Top - End - #326
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: OOTS #909 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Krim View Post
    WRT resurrecting Durkon...

    Mind you, for all his power, he is VERY vulnerable to well played magic. I'm not only thinking about greater dispel magic, but also anti magic field and disintegrate (no CON bonus to save). No, don't even think about recasting protection from daylight, not with Roy in melee range.

    If the Order plans well, they can backstab Durkula fairly easily. Then, they could cast Raise dead from a scroll or a mid level cleric (not trivial, but doable), and voilŠ, real durkon is back.
    Then he's DEAD forever if they try that.
    From the SRD description of Raise Dead:
    "A creature who has been turned into an undead creature or killed by a death effect canít be raised by this spell."

    And Resurrect needs a fairly high level cleric, Durkon and Redcloak are the two obvious candidates for that spell.

  27. - Top - End - #327
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    DwarfClericGuy

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    Default Re: OOTS #909 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Gift Jeraff View Post
    The bite marks indicate Con drain and Durkon no longer has a Con score.

    Plus Rich might be going for "a vampire's bite marks are permanent, once successfully vampirized."
    Influence from Adventure Time? Marceline's vampire bite is visible even 1000 years later...
    Last edited by MtlGuy; 2013-08-09 at 12:32 PM.

  28. - Top - End - #328
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    DwarfBarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: 909: Elemental victory clarification

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    No, it was "killed." I just didn't go back to look how I've handled the eyes in the past. Since the elemental isn't really dead, just returned to wherever it came from, I didn't think X's were appropriate. Apparently I felt differently back then. Probably because with the sand, I had a nice visual option for it vanishing in a puff of sand cloud, and with the chlorine I didn't.

    If the timer had run out, I would have made some comment along the lines of having someone say, "Huh, it vanished!" or something. I would have called it out. Instead, I put it right after a scene of everyone attacking at full strength. Context trumps art consistency, sometimes.
    I just figured that it and the Ti. elementals were surprised. I didn't worry about the Cl elemental.

    Heh, "pay his way to Stabbytown". Heh.
    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...6#post15476516


    I know I'm stealing this from someone else. But it's SO FUNNY

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    "I am a human sixtyfourthling! Fear my minimal halfling ancestry!"

    From: Razanir

    Bagnold could be one sixty-fourth halfling.

  29. - Top - End - #329
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: 909: Elemental victory clarification

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    Normally you don't get XP for summoned monsters, the rationale being that the ability to summon them is part of the summoner's CR: "You don't get more XP because an enemy wizard cast Fireball, why would you get more XP because the wizard used the same slot to cast Summon Monster III instead?" However, they didn't fight Redcloak.
    You COULD deny them XP on the basis that it's a summons, but then you're basically REQUIRED to admit that defeating Redcloak's summons is overcoming the challenge Redcloak presented in this scene, and therefore gives at least 8x as much XP for defeating Redcloak.

    I'd give some XP for the summons.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    In one module, summoned monsters constitute an entire encounter, as with the elemental (the summoner doesn't stick around to fight). The rule given in that module is to treat the summoned creatures as an encounter of their standard CR, with a -50% ad hoc XP adjustment because of their temporary duration and susceptibility to being dispelled.
    I follow the different "logic" that a command activated trap of Summon Monster IX is a CR 9 encounter or addition to an encounter. This situation is similar, thus the summons gives CR 9 XP, which happens to be exactly equal to half the XP from a CR 11 encounter for anyone of a level to get XP from both.

    So, yeah, we've got two lines of reasoning that it counts as roughly a CR 9 encounter or half a CR 11 encounter, take your pick.

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    Default Re: OOTS #909 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by MtlGuy View Post
    Influence from Adventure Time? Marceline's vampire bite is visible even 1000 years later...
    No, Adventure Time is drawing on much older influences. How many female vampires wear that choker thing to hide the bite scars?

    What does this say about Aubrey in Something Positive?

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