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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    Default The Shadowdancer [3.5 PrC fix]

    Shadowdancer
    ‘Thar’s no shadows! It’s a friggin’ stick figure comic, ye moron!’ – an angry dwarf to his shadowdancer ally.

    Background: Shadowdancers are the rogues who feel more at home in the darkness, and who begin to use it as an ally in a far more practical fashion than most. Whether through careful experimentation or force of will, they begin to bend the darkness to their will.
    Races: Drow are particularly suited to this class, but just as all races have rogues and criminals, all races occasionally breed shadowdancers.
    Other Classes: Other rogues tend to hate and adore Shadowdancers, having a mixture of jealousy and respect for them.
    Role: Shadowdancers make excellent assassins, and are skilled infiltrators.
    Shadowdancers in the World: Few Shadowdancers practice openly, due to their association with criminal activity. There are, of course, exceptions, and some Shadowdancers have been employed as diplomats or guards.
    Inspiration: PrC seemed underpowered.

    Prerequisites
    Skills: Hide 8 ranks, Move Silently 8 ranks, Perform (Dance) 4 ranks
    Feats: Mobility
    Class Features: Evasion

    Hit Die: d6
    Class Skills: The Shadowdancer’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Appraise (Int), Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Int), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Forgery (Int), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (local) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Open Lock (Dex), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), Use Magic Device (Cha), and Use Rope (Dex).
    Skill Points per Level: 8+ Int Modifier

    Level Base Attack Bonus Fort Save Ref Save Will Save Special
    1st
    +0
    +0
    +2
    +0
    Shadow Sight, Shadow Step
    2nd
    +1
    +0
    +3
    +0
    Sneak Attack +1d6, Uncanny Dodge
    3rd
    +2
    +1
    +3
    +1
    Hide in Plain Sight, Shadow Theatre
    4th
    +3
    +1
    +4
    +1
    Shadow Stride, Spring Attack
    5th
    +3
    +1
    +4
    +1
    Sneak Attack +2d6, Improved Evasion
    6th
    +4
    +2
    +5
    +2
    Call the Darkness
    7th
    +5
    +2
    +5
    +2
    Shadow Jump
    8th
    +6
    +2
    +6
    +2
    Sneak Attack +3d6, Shadow’s Victims
    9th
    +6
    +3
    +6
    +3
    Shadow Puppets
    10th
    +7
    +3
    +7
    +3
    Shadow Leap

    Weapon and Armour Proficiency: The Shadowdancer gains no new weapon or armor proficiencies.

    Shadow Sight (Ex): The first lesson a Shadowdancer learns is to see in the dark, to be at home in it. She gains Darkvision out to 60ft. This darkvision is full colour, but does not function in magical darkness, unless created by the Shadowdancer.

    Shadow Step (Su): As a move action, the Shadowdancer can teleport up to his normal move speed. Both his start and end point must be within 5ft of a shadow, and he must be able to see the destination.

    If the Shadowdancer possesses the Spring Attack feat, he may use it in conjunction with this ability. When doing so, he may teleport up to twice his normal distance as a full round action, and stop to make as many attacks on as many targets as he could on a normal spring attack. However, each waypoint must be within 5ft of a shadow, and he must be able to see each of them.

    Sneak Attack (Ex): At 2nd level, and each third level thereafter, the Shadowdancer adds 1d6 to his Sneak Attack. If he does not already possess Sneak Attack, he gains it, as the rogue ability.

    Uncanny Dodge (Ex) Starting at 2nd level, a shadowdancer retains her Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) regardless of being caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. (She still loses any Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized.)
    If a character gains uncanny dodge from a second class, the character automatically gains improved uncanny dodge, as described in the Rogue class.

    Hide in Plain Sight (Ex): A shadowdancer of third level can use the Hide skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow.

    Shadow Theatre (Sp): A third level Shadowdancer can manipulate the shadows to dance as she wishes. As a standard action at will, she may cast Silent Image. It has a caster level equal to her class level, plus her levels in classes that grant evasion.

    Shadow Stride: A fourth level Shadowdancer can step between shadows with far more ease. She doubles the range of her Shadow Step ability, and no longer needs to be able to see her destination, as long as she is at least casually familiar with it. (As described in the teleport spell.)

    Spring Attack: A fourth level Shadowdancer receives Spring Attack as a bonus feat. If they already possess that feat, they gain a single bonus feat of their choice.

    Improved Evasion (Ex): A fifth level Shadowdancer improves her Evasion ability. While she still takes no damage on a successful Reflex saving throw against attacks henceforth she takes only half damage on a failed save. A helpless character does not gain the benefit of improved evasion.

    Call the Darkness (Sp): Starting at sixth level, a Shadowdancer may cast Darkness as a spell like ability centered on herself, by using a full round action. She may use this ability at will. It has a caster level equal to her class level, plus her levels in classes that grant evasion.

    Shadow Jump (Sp): A seventh level Shadowdancer can cross kingdoms via the shadows. By taking one minute while standing in an area of shadows, she may cast Teleport. She may do this only once a day, and the target area must be in an area of shadows. Her caster level for this ability is equal to her class level, plus her levels in Rogue.

    Shadow’s Victims (Su): An eighth level Shadowdancer can imprint limited ghosts, bound to him for several days. Whenever he kills someone, he may use this ability, which is the equivalent of an eighth level spell. The target’s spirit is bound to him for a single day. During this time, he may ask one question per class level, which the spirit is under no obligation to answer truthfully, but must answer. After a day has passed, the spirit almost invariably moves on to the appropriate afterlife. If it is fond of him for some reason, it may remain.

    An unwilling spirit may be freed with a successful dispel, but is otherwise immune to all effects, and cannot in any way affect the world, besides talking. If a character is raised from the dead, their spirit is instantly freed from this effect.

    Shadow Puppets (Sp): A ninth level Shadowdancer can manipulate those who stand in their shadows. They may cast Dominate Person, Mass Suggestion or Charm Monster once per day as a standard action. The targets must be standing in the shadows. This ability has a caster level equal to her class level, plus her levels in classes that grant evasion.

    Shadow Leap (Sp): At tenth level, a Shadowdancer can leap between worlds. By taking one minute while standing in an area of shadows, she may cast Plane Shift. She may do this only once a day, and the target area must be in an area of shadows. This ability has a caster level equal to her class level, plus her levels in classes that grant evasion.
    Last edited by Lix Lorn; 2014-04-04 at 12:50 PM.
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    Default Re: The Shadowdancer [3.5 PrC fix]

    i cant help but think spring attack should come a bit earlier...
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    Default Re: The Shadowdancer [3.5 PrC fix]

    Looking at this… I feel this should be considered a separate PrC altogether. It doesn't seem like a fix at all to be honest. While there are some improvements, some things are downgraded or removed all together.

    1: Why the change in prerequisites? Especially presenting it as an extension to the rogue class, theres no reason to cut off Move Silently and Preform (Dance) as prerequisites. You've also dropped two feats and added a Class feature prerequisite. Making this class require (of just the players handbook) levels in: Monk, Ranger, or Rogue. You've made it easier to enter but reduced who can enter significantly.

    2: Do they really need 8 + Int modifier skill points? 6 + Int modifier is surely sufficient. While rogues require a very diverse set of skills, shadow dancers are meant to focus in on certain elements. The number of skill points required being reduced. Their magical abilities making up for the reduced skill points.

    3: I honestly have to question what you've done with the abilities. You've moved hide in plain sight from 1st level to 3rd. I fail to see the reason why summon shadow has been removed entirely. Evasion removed from the class, but added as a prerequisite, and there is no improved evasion in this version so that ability doesn't advance. Shadow Illusion renamed and moved from 3rd to 6th. While shadow step ability is interesting, you've delayed shadow jump to 7th (while changing it's function, in an admittedly interesting fashion, and further emphasizing the rogue class). Defensive roll, a valuable ability, is removed. You've given them an ability to work with ghosts, which I fail to see how it fits thematically. Dominate Person, Mass Suggestion, or Charm person as a single ability at 8th, I question the reasons behind. Also.. Why plane shift at 10th? I can see it being required to be with the plane of shadow involved.. but just handing them plane shift? Not to mention sneak attack feels a little tacked on.

    I must ask, how is this a fix? I'd have an easier time accepting the idea if you presented it as a separate PrC altogether, at which point I'd state it simply needs fine tuning. While shadowdancer is a bit underpowered, something we agree on, a fix should embrace it's innate flavor and improve upon what exists. You do improve upon some things, but enough is lost here that the dancer is lost. Maybe call this… a shadowjaunter? Another thought is take this and make a 20 level class, cast as a rogue variant.

    I may not be the best judge, granted, but these are my honest opinions. If you are happy with it, who am I to judge?
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    Default Re: The Shadowdancer [3.5 PrC fix]

    Quote Originally Posted by Xuldarinar View Post
    -snip-
    Improved Evasion IS one of the class features of this Shadowdancer.

    I do agree with this not being a fix, but rather a different Prestige Class altogether. The old shadowdancer was hardly that problematic that it warrants fixing anyway.

    This class seems to have dropped the whole 'dance' part of the shadowdancer anyway, so why not make it a new prestige class?
    Last edited by TKXapathy; 2013-08-09 at 03:20 AM.

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    Default Re: The Shadowdancer [3.5 PrC fix]

    Quote Originally Posted by LordErebus12 View Post
    i cant help but think spring attack should come a bit earlier...
    I agree, but I needed something to toss in at 9th level, since the victims are almost all fluff.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xuldarinar View Post
    Looking at this… I feel this should be considered a separate PrC altogether. It doesn't seem like a fix at all to be honest. While there are some improvements, some things are downgraded or removed all together.

    1: Why the change in prerequisites? Especially presenting it as an extension to the rogue class, theres no reason to cut off Move Silently and Preform (Dance) as prerequisites.
    Sure there is. They're entirely unnecessary. Anyone who wants Hide is likely going to take Move Silently. Perform (Dance) is a pure fluff prerequisite, which doesn't really make sense. What does dancing actually have to do with this class? I suppose it would help with dexterity and such...

    You've also dropped two feats and added a Class feature prerequisite. Making this class require (of just the players handbook) levels in: Monk, Ranger, or Rogue. You've made it easier to enter but reduced who can enter significantly.
    Dodge was redundant as a prereq, since you need it to get Mobility. Combat Reflexes just doesn't fit, apart from the name.

    And... good? It's really a rogue PrC.

    2: Do they really need 8 + Int modifier skill points? 6 + Int modifier is surely sufficient. While rogues require a very diverse set of skills, shadow dancers are meant to focus in on certain elements. The number of skill points required being reduced. Their magical abilities making up for the reduced skill points.
    I don't really agree. The downside of being a Shadowdancer is slower sneak attack and lack of Special Abilities.
    (Plus no trap sense, but nobody cares about that.)

    3: I honestly have to question what you've done with the abilities. You've moved hide in plain sight from 1st level to 3rd. I fail to see the reason why summon shadow has been removed entirely. Evasion removed from the class, but added as a prerequisite, and there is no improved evasion in this version so that ability doesn't advance.
    Personally, when I take Shadowdancer, I take it for moving between shadows. So I put Shadow Step at level 1. I couldn't put Hide In Plain Sight at the same level, and I wanted sneak attack at 2, so it went to three. You actually get it at the same level, assuming you enter as early as possible.
    Summon Shadow was removed because only the name is fitting. Why do they have an affiliation with the undead? Why do they have a companion undead? What mechanical purpose is a low CR undead meant to perform?

    Shadow Illusion renamed and moved from 3rd to 6th. While shadow step ability is interesting, you've delayed shadow jump to 7th (while changing it's function, in an admittedly interesting fashion, and further emphasizing the rogue class).
    Shadow Step is Shadow Jump, just without a ridiculously low per-day limit.Shadow Illusion is at 6th because that's where there's room for it. And... yes, I'm emphasizing Rogue. Shadowdancer is a rogue PrC. This seems blatantly obvious to me.

    Defensive roll, a valuable ability, is removed. You've given them an ability to work with ghosts, which I fail to see how it fits thematically. Dominate Person, Mass Suggestion, or Charm person as a single ability at 8th, I question the reasons behind.
    Fluff associations with shadow. I thought Shadow Puppets would be an interesting name for an enchantment ability, which would also be useful for someone of that profession. If they want defensive roll desperately, they can take more levels of rogue.

    Also.. Why plane shift at 10th? I can see it being required to be with the plane of shadow involved.. but just handing them plane shift? Not to mention sneak attack feels a little tacked on.
    Plane Shift is a logical extension of a class which has teleporting as a major ability. It's also level appropriate for that point.
    As for sneak attack, as I said, it's a rogue PrC. It makes sense that it should progress that.

    I must ask, how is this a fix? I'd have an easier time accepting the idea if you presented it as a separate PrC altogether, at which point I'd state it simply needs fine tuning. While shadowdancer is a bit underpowered, something we agree on, a fix should embrace it's innate flavor and improve upon what exists. You do improve upon some things, but enough is lost here that the dancer is lost. Maybe call this… a shadowjaunter? Another thought is take this and make a 20 level class, cast as a rogue variant.

    I may not be the best judge, granted, but these are my honest opinions. If you are happy with it, who am I to judge?
    In my eyes, that's what I did. To me, a Shadowdancer is a highly agile character with shadow-based powers. So that's what I made.

    Quote Originally Posted by TKXapathy View Post
    This class seems to have dropped the whole 'dance' part of the shadowdancer anyway, so why not make it a new prestige class?
    ...I am very, very confused that you're fixating on this.
    The only reference to dance in the canon class, besides the name, is the prereq. That's literally it. If people really think the lip service skill requirement is that important to the class, I can put it back? O_o
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    Default Re: The Shadowdancer [3.5 PrC fix]

    Quote Originally Posted by Lix Lorn View Post
    -snip-
    You defend your decisions well, and with some thought I would say it isn't bad. You zeroed in on the rogue aspect, which is commendable but is a decision I personally disagree with. Our takes on the shadowdancer differ.

    While the ability to hide in plain sight, jump form shadow to shadow, ect. would benefit a rogue.. It also benefits others. This class can be about maneuvering around a battlefield and controlling it. It had a set of abilities that used well would benefit members of any class really, though rogues did have some of the most to gain, having sneak attack.

    I think I can explain a few things. Least, this is my take.

    Move Silently: Two things. One, while a character with hide may naturally take move silently, that doesn't mean the skill requirement should be dropped. Also, I think it is a matter of capacity to move in certain ways. Being lighter on one's feet.

    Preform (dance): While you lack the skill checks within the class, having preform (dance) of a certain point simulates a need that isn't statistically reflected. Being able to move in certain ways to move through shadow and to manipulate it, this also is reflected by move silently to an extent. The need for it also emphasizes a certain flavor. Why do duelists require ranks in preform or most spellcasting PrCs require knowledge (something)?

    Summon Shadow: While you are right, in that it makes little sense for a shadow dancer to have connection to the undead, I think I can explain this. I think it is to represent their control over shadows (not the creature). Their bond to shadow becoming manifest through a shadow companion. This was the creature that made sense at the time, being sentient darkness. The shadow companion for shadowdancers are immune to turning/rebuking, and are unable to generate spawn, attempting to pull away some of the undead flavor. Later on, we are introduced to shadow elementals, which may be a much better fit, but didn't exist at the time the 3.5 DMG was released. So, rather than producing a new creature for the purpose, they used the undead creature. As for the purpose of it, you have an incorporeal creature you can command. It can drain strength from opponents, distract, so on. It's usefulness really depends on the player.

    As a side note: you replaced one association with undead with another.

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    Default Re: The Shadowdancer [3.5 PrC fix]

    Quote Originally Posted by Xuldarinar View Post
    Move Silently: Two things. One, while a character with hide may naturally take move silently, that doesn't mean the skill requirement should be dropped. Also, I think it is a matter of capacity to move in certain ways. Being lighter on one's feet.
    Hm. I think you've convinced me. :)

    Preform (dance): While you lack the skill checks within the class, having preform (dance) of a certain point simulates a need that isn't statistically reflected. Being able to move in certain ways to move through shadow and to manipulate it, this also is reflected by move silently to an extent. The need for it also emphasizes a certain flavor. Why do duelists require ranks in preform or most spellcasting PrCs require knowledge (something)?
    Duelists absolutely SHOULDN'T require perform. They should require, yknow, fighting ability. Knowledge (Arcana) makes sense because it's the skill for knowing magic. (shrugs)
    However, since everyone seems to agree it's an integral part of the class...

    Summon Shadow: While you are right, in that it makes little sense for a shadow dancer to have connection to the undead, I think I can explain this. I think it is to represent their control over shadows (not the creature). Their bond to shadow becoming manifest through a shadow companion. This was the creature that made sense at the time, being sentient darkness. The shadow companion for shadowdancers are immune to turning/rebuking, and are unable to generate spawn, attempting to pull away some of the undead flavor. Later on, we are introduced to shadow elementals, which may be a much better fit, but didn't exist at the time the 3.5 DMG was released. So, rather than producing a new creature for the purpose, they used the undead creature. As for the purpose of it, you have an incorporeal creature you can command. It can drain strength from opponents, distract, so on. It's usefulness really depends on the player.

    As a side note: you replaced one association with undead with another.
    I suppose... the second reason I took it out is because companions are /really/ difficult to balance, especially if you want it to stay relevant indefinitely.

    The ghost feature was made as a nod to it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanqol View Post
    It's like the feng shui version of an orbital death laser.

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    Default Re: The Shadowdancer [3.5 PrC fix]

    If you are going to call it the Shadowdancer, I see no reason why Perform (Dance) should not be a required skill. After all, I would assume that moving through the shadows requires a certain level of grace that should be beyond the ordinary thug and warrior.

    Right now, I do feel like Shadow Victims and Shadow Puppets do seem very out of place. Shadow magic is obviously illusory in nature, so why does the Shadowdancer get necromancy and enchantment from shadows?

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    Default Re: The Shadowdancer [3.5 PrC fix]

    Fair.

    Like I said earlier, it was mainly through the names for Shadow Puppets. It's also a very useful ability for that kind of rogue character who often ends up as the face.
    Shadow victims was a nod to the shadow companion.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanqol View Post
    It's like the feng shui version of an orbital death laser.

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    Default Re: The Shadowdancer [3.5 PrC fix]

    Shadow Puppets (Sp): A ninth level Shadowdancer can manipulate those who stand in their shadows. They may cast Dominate Person, Mass Suggestion or Charm Monster once per day as a standard action. The targets must be standing in the shadows. Her caster level for this ability is equal to her class level, plus her levels in Rogue.
    Just make it HD. What's the logic in rogue levels?

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    Default Re: The Shadowdancer [3.5 PrC fix]

    It's mostly a rogue PrC. It makes sense to me - and most classes would just be class level, wouldn't they?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanqol View Post
    It's like the feng shui version of an orbital death laser.

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    Default Re: The Shadowdancer [3.5 PrC fix]

    Quote Originally Posted by Lix Lorn View Post
    Shadow Step (Su): As a move action, the Shadowdancer can teleport up to his base land speed. Both his start and end point must be within 5t of a shadow, and he must be able to see the destination.
    Should be 5ft, not 5t.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lix Lorn View Post
    Shadow Theatre (Sp): A third level Shadowdancer can manipulate the shadows to dance as she wishes. As a standard action at will, she may cast Silent Image.
    Caster level for this?

    And just as a comment for caster levels for the other abilities, perhaps you should make it (Shadowdancer levels) + (levels in class that gives Evasion). So non-rogue classes can have a decent CL for these.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lix Lorn View Post
    Shadow’s Victims (Su): An eighth level Shadowdancer can imprint limited ghosts, bound to him for several days. Whenever he kills someone, he may use this ability, which is the equivalent of an eight level spell. The target’s spirit is bound to him for a single day. During this time, he may ask one question per class level, which it is under no obligation to answer truthfully, but must answer. After a day has passed, the spirit almost invariably moves on to the appropriate afterlife. If it is fond of him for some reason, it may remain.
    Grammar corrections:

    eighth

    which the spirit is

    Quote Originally Posted by Lix Lorn View Post
    Shadow Puppets (Sp): A ninth level Shadowdancer can manipulate those who stand in their shadows. They may cast Dominate Person, Mass Suggestion or Charm Monster once per day as a standard action. The targets must be standing in the shadows. Her caster level for this ability is equal to her class level, plus her levels in Rogue.
    Is this Dominate Person OR Mass Suggestion OR Charm Monster 1/day, or Dominate Person 1/day, Mass Suggestion 1/day and Charm Monster 1/day?
    Last edited by Morcleon; 2013-08-10 at 12:59 PM.
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    Default Re: The Shadowdancer [3.5 PrC fix]

    Quote Originally Posted by Morcleon View Post
    Should be 5ft, not 5t.

    Caster level for this?

    And just as a comment for caster levels for the other abilities, perhaps you should make it (Shadowdancer levels) + (levels in class that gives Evasion). So non-rogue classes can have a decent CL for these.

    Grammar corrections:

    eighth

    which the spirit is
    Sure.

    Is this Dominate Person OR Mass Suggestion OR Charm Monster 1/day, or Dominate Person 1/day, Mass Suggestion 1/day and Charm Monster 1/day?
    Or, emphasised.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanqol View Post
    It's like the feng shui version of an orbital death laser.

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