OOTS #912 - The Discussion Thread

[Jay R]

And apparently that was worth sacrificing key pieces of his own team and both of his sons', despite the fact that he has further uses in mind for at least two-thirds of those, and no clear goal for the Gate.

Of course he has no use for the Gate. He said he was going to destroy it. It was a dangerous item that was luring a lich into his realm. Because of what happened, the lich is now gone.

If he thought, as a pure risk/reward question, that the potential losses from open, no-holds-barred battle between the LG and the OOTS were worth the possibility of maybe studying this magical artifact for a little while - assuming Xykon didn't show up to force his hand, which it turns out would have happened even if Nale had seized the Gate when he had it - then he's considerably dumber than he otherwise acts. If he was adhering to the rules of drama, then that's further proof he lets those rules hamstring his effectiveness.

The Nale-Malack showdown was going to happen anyway. This merely postponed it a little. Other than that, he "risked" his son's team, which is not his asset, and which was going to be at risk there anyway. And bear in mind that they had no reason to believe that the gate wouldn't be guarded. There was no clue that the Draketooths were all dead. Also, Xykon is gone only because the gate is destroyed.

"... hamstring his effectiveness"? Do you see any likely outcome that would have been any better for him? Remember, the Gate cannot be used to get him power.

He has lost nothing except Malack, which was always a possibility, and a gate in his area that he could never have used. He now has a rift to study, with an entire army there to guard it, and a wizard to research it, and he is "helping" the only other group who knows about it to go to another continent.

[Tragak]

BTW, I'm not sure the 'are not considered 100% canon line' at the beginning of your entry there is quite right. Perhaps 'are not considered 100% canon by some' would be better. To reflect the YMMV nature of the consideration.

Aside from that minor quibble, good work.

Added the "mileage varies" bit

[Porthos]

Added the "mileage varies" bit

[Tragak]

He said he was going to destroy it.

Ah, but didn't he say that he was going to take the credit for coming up with "My son - making the world safe for tyrannical oligarchy" as the result of the race against Nale? Once he admits something like that, I think anytime he takes the credit for something that happened, we should consider that it was just another happy accident

[allenw]

That's what happens unless Xykon is a lousy spellcaster.

Many mind-affecting spells will fail, or at least give the subject a new saving throw, if the subject is ordered to do something completely against their nature. And the MitD's "nature" has evolved considerably since SoD.

[Scow2]

A DM who approves a Sorcerer or Wizard version of Heal is getting what he deserves.

A sorcerer more likely to be appreciated by the group and less likely to break the campaign?

A sorcerer spending Spells Known on healing spells is a sorcerer not spending Spells Known on "I Win" buttons.

[Joseph_Lavode]

EDIT: To clarify, I'm backing down from the position that he would use his rebuking ability. I meant more to state that a Divine spellcaster has more options to deal with Intelligent Undead. I'm certain that having a creatures soul contained in an object is a pretty powerful focus for any sort of undead controlling effect. Now that Xykon believes his phylactery is safe and away from Redcloak he won't be watching his back as much, leaving Redcloak time to mess with the phylactery.

Xykon's soul is not actually in the phylactery unless his body is destroyed, so Redcloak wouldn't be able to use it in that way.

[DaggerPen]

Xykon's soul is not actually in the phylactery unless his body is destroyed, so Redcloak wouldn't be able to use it in that way.

... on a tangential note, now I'm wondering what happens if you try to soul bind a lich. Is it possible to intercept the soul on the way to the phylactery? Or would you just have to destroy the phylactery as per usual?

[Rakoa]

... on a tangential note, now I'm wondering what happens if you try to soul bind a lich. Is it possible to intercept the soul on the way to the phylactery? Or would you just have to destroy the phylactery as per usual?

RAW, of course, says nothing on the matter. It makes sense that this would prevent regeneration, but some would say that the soul stuff is just fluff. As usual, it's the DM's call.

[Klanos]

I understand this. But what major characters in the strip, protagonists or antagonists, have never had some sort of setback since they showed up in the comic? I also understand that Tarquin hasn't been around that long, but it is starting to knaw at me a little.

The problem with Magnificent Bastards who play Xanatos Speed Chess is that they can turn into Boring Invincible Villains. In other words, I DON'T want to see that everything that can happen will just further Tarquin's goals more.

Now before people jump on me, I have full faith in Rich as a writer that this isn't going to happen. And there's still plenty of time for things to blow up in Tarquin's face. OTOH, what I don't particularly want to see is Tarquin turning into a villain's version of Batman where he saunters around with an 'I Win' button due to his being Crazy Prepared.

To give a bit of an example of what I DID like, allow me to put some thoughts about the latest Kickstarter story behind some spoiler bars:

Spoiler

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One of the things I loved about Haleo and Julelan was that Tarquin was, in the words of TV Tropes, Wrong Genre Savvy. That is, he expected events to turn out a certain way, but because he wasn't in that type of story, they didn't. And even though he had his classic Tarquin lines and scene-stealing scenes, his vulnerability made things sweeter for me.

Basically I guess I am saying I want to see him suffer some sort of loss for two reasons:

A) He's overdue.

B) I want to see just how his calm, cool, collected facade (and I truly believe it is a facade) really reacts when put under pressure.

We've already seen it crack a couple of times. I just want to see what happens when a few more cracks appear. If only to once again see the monster that is hiding behind his cheerful smile.

This is OOTS. Of couse there're gonna be tropes. I find him some good, cool, collected humor.

TARQUIN FOR LIFE!

NBR, I like him.

[Alaska Fan]

I just checked the archives since Tarquin showed up to see if Hailey was ever referred to by her last name with Tarquin on panel. I can't find an example. This makes me more confident in Ian having something going on in the next few pages.

Malack referred to Haley as "Starshine" back in http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0764.html.

[Shale]

Of course he has no use for the Gate. He said he was going to destroy it. It was a dangerous item that was luring a lich into his realm. Because of what happened, the lich is now gone.

And Tarquin did everything he could to make that not happen, because Narrative. His stated primary goal was to deny Xykon the Gate - a goal which the OOTS do share, and Nale, Sabine and Zz'ditri did not. If he thought there was anything useful to be learned from studying it, he clearly didn't care that much, or he'd be even slightly peeved at the part where it got blown up before he made it back. And yet despite having common cause with the Order, he decided to join his forces with Nale's and attack with lethal force the people who wanted the same thing as him, with their mutual enemy incoming! He pulled a Let's You and Him Fight on himself. It was only by blind luck (namely, the Order's luck that Zz'ditri didn't have True Seeing in the antechamber) that the two teams weren't fighting each other when Xykon showed up.

As far as what would be better for him, well, Nale's no more inclined to come back to the fold than he was when all this started, so Team Tarquin is still down their deathless cleric with nothing to show for it. And the Order now has one frontline warrior with the CON of a baby squirrel, and one cleric whose alignment opposes the rest of the team and who has the same vulnerabilities that Nale just exploited to turn Malack to ash in 20 seconds flat. Plus the whole thing where he's never going to see 17th level. Now, that would only impact Tarquin if he was relying on them to complete some big, challenging quest instead of undertaking it himself...oh wait, that's exactly what his plan is - to sit back and hope they beat Xykon. Which will now be that much harder, because Tarquin had to be a villain.

Yeah, great plan. He's a super friggin' genius.

[DaggerPen]

Re: Tarquin's end: my money's still on Amun Zora getting revenge. Being taken out by someone he's so profoundly wronged would be rather fitting, I think, and would prevent the climactic end Tarquin wanted.

[Sir_Leorik]

A sorcerer more likely to be appreciated by the group and less likely to break the campaign?

A sorcerer spending Spells Known on healing spells is a sorcerer not spending Spells Known on "I Win" buttons.

And where is this Sorcerer getting the money to research this Sorcerer version of Cure Light Wounds? How long is it taking him to research it? Where did he go to do the research? Anyone arguing that a Sorcerer can do that is deliberately misinterpreting the RAW.

[Forikroder]

*shrug* When I disagree with someone, I post my disagreement. That our disagreements become extensive might go back to that 'evidence' thing. I guess I should stop trying, no?

If Rich were writing the story that way, many things about the comic up till now would have to have been different. Among other things, he would need to have not written SoD, not had Redcloak state that he can't simply Command Xykon, and not had Xykon establish himself as significantly higher level than Redcloak.

There should be a term for saying someone is rules-lawyering when they have the temerity to point out that the Giant wouldn't turn the rules on their head for the sake of someone's pet WMG. Especially when that WMG doesn't make narrative sense in the first place. Regulaphobia, perhaps. It comes up often enough.

please read this post by me

i didnt say he would or should but in case you didnt notice Rich is absolutely a god in writing so if he thinks its the best ending im sure wed all wind up aggreeing

im not saying he plans to or anything at all

im not saying i even think he plans to nor that i think he should or would

im only saying he can if he wants to

im really stumped on how i could ahve explained my exact position any clearer

Ah, but didn't he say that he was going to take the credit for coming up with "My son - making the world safe for tyrannical oligarchy" as the result of the race against Nale?

no he did not he said he may start implying it

[Math_Mage]

please read this post by me until you understand

<stuff>

im really stumped on how i could ahve explained my exact position any clearer

That only works if you assume Rich has only just now become a god of writing. Otherwise, you have to account for the fact that the god of writing has explicitly pointed his story in a very different direction.

[Forikroder]

That only works if you assume Rich has only just now become a god of writing. Otherwise, you have to account for the fact that the god of writing has explicitly pointed his story in a very different direction.

only Rich knows where the story is heading

[Math_Mage]

only Rich knows where the story is heading

Oh, so if I were to tell you we're headed to Kraagor's Gate in the near future, you'd shake your head and solemnly intone that we cannot predict anything that will happen because the god of writing might decide to do something completely different? Please.

[Forikroder]

Oh, so if I were to tell you we're headed to Kraagor's Gate in the near future, you'd shake your head and solemnly intone that we cannot predict anything that will happen because the god of writing might decide to do something completely different? Please.

okay you can predict the very next obvious move thats been broadcast obviously

how about this, whats the IFCC's plan? what is the MiTD? is Serini alive? exactly what is in the rift?

there are still big huge unknowns that each have the ability to drastically change the plot

the OoTS-verse has broken spells like Familicide is it that impossible that Redcloak finds a way to drastically boost his control undead?

[Math_Mage]

okay you can predict the very next obvious move thats been broadcast obviously

how about this, whats the IFCC's plan? what is the MiTD? is Serini alive? exactly what is in the rift?

there are still big huge unknowns that each have the ability to drastically change the plot

the OoTS-verse has broken spells like Familicide is it that impossible that Redcloak finds a way to drastically boost his control undead?

Yes. It is. The fact that the most powerful evil spellcaster in history (that we know of) fabricated an extraordinarily powerful spell has no bearing on this.

I'll come right out and say it: unless The Dark One possesses Redcloak, there is no scenario where Redcloak out-and-out controls Xykon through clerical abilities.

See, there are things in the comic that are deliberately ambiguous, and there are things in the comic that are deliberately not ambiguous.

The IFCC's plans? MitD's true nature? The planet in the rift? All deliberately ambiguous. Whether Redcloak can or will ever be able to overpower Xykon? Deliberately not ambiguous.

[jere7my]

Oh, so if I were to tell you we're headed to Kraagor's Gate in the near future, you'd shake your head and solemnly intone that we cannot predict anything that will happen because the god of writing might decide to do something completely different? Please.

I've seen some people postulate that the Order is going to be forced to flee through the rift, which is certainly possible if things with Tarquin take a bad turn in the next strip. That could keep them away from Kraagor's Gate for hundreds of strips.

Probably not going to happen, but it certainly could.

[Forikroder]

Yes. It is. The fact that the most powerful evil spellcaster in history (that we know of) fabricated an extraordinarily powerful spell has no bearing on this.

I'll come right out and say it: unless The Dark One possesses Redcloak, there is no scenario where Redcloak out-and-out controls Xykon through clerical abilities.

See, there are things in the comic that are deliberately ambiguous, and there are things in the comic that are deliberately not ambiguous.

The IFCC's plans? MitD's true nature? The planet in the rift? All deliberately ambiguous. Whether Redcloak can or will ever be able to overpower Xykon? Deliberately not ambiguous.

so your saying its literally impossible for rich to ahve redcloak control Xykon directly?

[Math_Mage]

jere7my, *shrug*. People have been postulating the Rift jump practically since we learned there was a world in the Rift. While that's not impossible, the only end to which that arc could reasonably be put if it started here and took hundreds of strips is to reach Kraagor's Gate from the other side, which would fit my prediction just fine.

so your saying its literally impossible for rich to ahve redcloak control Xykon directly?

Yes. That's how Rich set things up, through the narrative and the rules both. Part of being a writer is determining what is not possible so that what is possible can be told as creatively as, well, possible. Rich has determined that Redcloak magically controlling Xykon is impossible; that fact, expressed through the rules, enables the narrative by constraining Redcloak's options for dealing with Xykon. That element is so ingrained in the narrative that it cannot be overturned without ruining the narrative. Factor in a general adherence to almost-core D&D rules, which is just as fundamental to the narrative, and yes, Redcloak directly controlling Xykon is impossible.

[SavageWombat]

I personally support the right of everyone to interpret Rich's text and anticipate possibilities, not to have "one true vision" of where the story is "obviously" going.

[Forikroder]

jere7my, *shrug*. People have been postulating the Rift jump practically since we learned there was a world in the Rift. While that's not impossible, the only end to which that arc could reasonably be put if it started here and took hundreds of strips is to reach Kraagor's Gate from the other side, which would fit my prediction just fine.


Yes. That's how Rich set things up, through the narrative and the rules both. Part of being a writer is determining what is not possible so that what is possible can be told as creatively as, well, possible. Rich has determined that Redcloak magically controlling Xykon is impossible; that fact, expressed through the rules, enables the narrative by constraining Redcloak's options for dealing with Xykon. That element is so ingrained in the narrative that it cannot be overturned without ruining the narrative. Factor in a general adherence to almost-core D&D rules, which is just as fundamental to the narrative, and yes, Redcloak directly controlling Xykon is impossible.

why do you come to a discussion thread when you have your set of ideas that you simply assume is 100% true and refuse to budge an inch?

Redcloak took Xykons phylactery for a reason, redcloak for some reason wants to keep it secret he used demons to destroy the resistance

maybe Redcloak has made contact with the IFCC and they have a soul that knows a spell to control lichs as long as you have there phylactery

there are already parts in the story that would explain REdcloak controlling Xykon, he could even create his own spell

saying "i dont like the idea of Redcloak contorlling Xykon so its literally impossible" is like saying you know better then the Author

even if theres a 99.999999999% chance that this situation never comes to pass it is possible for it to happen and there is in comic ways of him pulling it off

[Math_Mage]

I personally support the right of everyone to interpret Rich's text and anticipate possibilities, not to have "one true vision" of where the story is "obviously" going.

There's a lot of room between "one true vision" and "all possible interpretations are equal."

I don't pretend to have All The Truth about how the story is going to play out. There's all kinds of fascinating ground the story could cover and most of it I haven't even conceived of.

But there are boundaries, too. Without boundaries there is no story. That's what a story is: gradually weaving a single narrative out of the infinite possibilities. Boundaries mean some things simply can't happen. That's important. Constraints introduce tension. They make complexity feasible, because the simplest solution is not necessarily available.

Redcloak directly controlling Xykon? That's beyond the boundaries laid down in OotS.

why do you come to a discussion thread when you have your set of ideas that you simply assume is 100% true and refuse to budge an inch?

Because, despite the impression you've gotten from our arguments, I don't consider most of my ideas set in stone. You simply have a talent for running across the ones that are, because you happily run roughshod over rules and narrative both in pursuit of WMGs.

[Forikroder]

There's a lot of room between "one true vision" and "all possible interpretations are equal."

I don't pretend to have All The Truth about how the story is going to play out. There's all kinds of fascinating ground the story could cover and most of it I haven't even conceived of.

But there are boundaries, too. Without boundaries there is no story. That's what a story is: gradually weaving a single narrative out of the infinite possibilities. Boundaries mean some things simply can't happen. That's important. Constraints introduce tension. They make complexity feasible, because the simplest solution is not necessarily available.

Redcloak directly controlling Xykon? That's beyond the boundaries laid down in OotS.

why not though? give redcloak 3 xykon level splices and hed have the caster level to have him on his knees

or give him one splice with an epic spell power enough to do the same... Haerta probably has some broken undead controlling spell somewhere

its well within the bounds of the story for redcloak to pull that off

[Math_Mage]

why not though? give redcloak 3 xykon level splices and hed have the caster level to have him on his knees

or give him one splice with an epic spell power enough to do the same... Haerta probably has some broken undead controlling spell somewhere

its well within the bounds of the story for redcloak to pull that off

While that's pretty damn close to the one exception I did list (possession by deity), I tell you what: if that comes to pass, I'll send $50 wherever you want. A charity, the Mafia, your bank account, anywhere.

[Dalek Kommander]

so your saying its literally impossible for rich to ahve redcloak control Xykon directly?

Would it be "literally impossible" for Haley to sneak-attack Elan to death and then propose marriage to Nale? I'm sure a rogue of her level does lots of sneak attack damage, to say nothing of any exotic poisons she could use to quicken Elan's demise, but the mere mechanics of how she could legally kill Elan within the standard game rules is hardly the real issue.

Rich is a great writer because he writes characters with lots of personality. Part of having a personailty is being predictable, at least about some things like not stabbing people you love in the back.

Rich is especially good at giving interesting personalities to his villains. Redcloak isn't just evil for the lulz, he's haunted by the memory of all the precious things he's sacrificed to advance the Dark One's plan, the LEAST of which is his own dignity.

Rich isn't going to turn around and negate all that tragedy by having Redcloak suddenly reveal that holding the phylactery gives him power over Xykon. In fact in SoD...

Spoiler

Show

he already tried it, and failed.

[Tris]

Would it be "literally impossible" for Haley to sneak-attack Elan to death and then propose marriage to Nale? I'm sure a rogue of her level does lots of sneak attack damage, to say nothing of any exotic poisons she could use to quicken Elan's demise, but the mere mechanics of how she could legally kill Elan within the standard game rules is hardly the real issue.

Rich is a great writer because he writes characters with lots of personality. Part of having a personailty is being predictable, at least about some things like not stabbing people you love in the back.

Rich is especially good at giving interesting personalities to his villains. Redcloak isn't just evil for the lulz, he's haunted by the memory of all the precious things he's sacrificed to advance the Dark One's plan, the LEAST of which is his own dignity.

Rich isn't going to turn around and negate all that tragedy by having Redcloak suddenly reveal that holding the phylactery gives him power over Xykon. In fact in SoD...

Spoiler

Show

he already tried it, and failed.

Haley backstabbing Elan is not at all comparable to Redcloak taking over Xykon. I don't see how It goes against Redcloak's personality. He views the undead as tools to be manipulated. Controlling Xykon is perfectly in line with Redcloak's personality.