Canonicity vs. Fun: What am I doing wrong?!

[Archpaladin Zousha]

As of late I've been finding myself becoming frustrated in keeping up with the metaplot of the Golarion setting.

I just feel flustered when the books I buy, or people on the boards, reference something that I'm unfamiliar with. Like the Hao Jin Tapestry in the Pathfinder Society Primer, which I assume was the prize in the Ruby Phoenix Tournament module as said tournament is mentioned in the Primer, or learning that Krune was killed by Pathfinders in Organized play secondhand.

I feel like events like that MATTER to the metaplot, and if I were to introduce some great sweeping event that changes things (for instance, I've been trying to run a Council of Thieves game for over a year now, and even though we've never gotten to the end, almost all the players have stated their intention to take the fight right to House Thrune. What if later something comes down the line that I want to run that requires an intact Cheliax? And how do I run such a civil war, given House Thrune was able to curb-stomp an army of copper dragons that attacked it with the intention of taking them down (see Dragons Revisited)? It would seem if the PCs tried to fight House Thrune, the rebellion would be put down in a matter of days.). Or what's been hinted at on the boards, that upcoming Organized Play events will deal with the stagnation that's been Taldor's schtick from the beginning. What if I set events in Taldor without knowing what's going on there?

Prince of Wolves possible spoilers (the novel's been out for a while, but I don't know how many people have read it, I certainly haven't):

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According to what little information I've gleaned, it's revealed that Radovan, Count Jeggare's tiefling bodyguard is actually a Virholt, making him a possible claimant for the throne of Ustalav. I now feel like the possibility of someone wanting to play a scion of the Virholt line, like hinted at in Rule of Fear, is impossible because of what's been revealed. How can there be two "last scions" of the family line? And to those who say, "It's your setting, Radovan doesn't have to exist in it," I understand your argument, but please understand where I'm coming from. I have a thing about canon. I don't like to contradict it. So if canon says one thing and the player says another, the canon is what wins, if I am GM. It's better writing than any of the crap I could produce, that's why I use Adventure Paths in the first place.

I try to run my stuff as close to canon as possible, but I find myself frustrated by the fact that my knowledge is, quite simply, limited. I don't have all the books, I don't have that kind of disposable income, and more stuff keeps coming out so I feel like I'll never be fully caught up. I've never read any of the novels, and I get confused when they get referenced in threads. And I don't have the money or the means to attend PaizoCon or GenCon and learn any of these alleged "Secrets of Golarion" that are being talked about that supposedly involved non-disclosure agreements and talk about the truth behind Aroden's death being revealed. All of this feels so bewildering as I try to establish what I as a GM can and cannot do to avoid violating potential canon, and where to set boundaries for my players. I want to know where the boundaries are, so I can continue to enjoy the wonderful writing and stuff that Pathfinder keeps producing, but I feel like the minute I go off-script or improv something, a book will come out later that totally contradicts what I had happen, and thus will render that content unusable in my game.

[JusticeZero]

Well, that is why I use my own settings. How much of an issue is it really if you are out of date with your campaign?

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Players couldn't care less. Me? It keeps me awake at night. I'm trying to make sure my own PCs match the canon perfectly so they fit in the canon and I don't get anxiety for it. I'm incredibly self-conscious about my creative writing skills, and I feel if I go "off-script," meaning I deviate from the stuff in the books too much, the character becomes tacky or Mary Sue like. And because it'd be spam to post a new thread every time I have a question about fitting character backgrounds into the setting.

[JusticeZero]

Well, how about you pin things to a less current point in the time line instead of trying to keep cutting edge?

[warty goblin]

When worrying about canon in pretty much any situation I have one very simple rule: don't. No good ever comes of it.

[Threadnaught]

Players couldn't care less.

Me? It keeps me awake at night. I'm trying to make sure my own PCs match the canon perfectly so they fit in the canon

Maybe you should stop caring so much. If everyone's having fun, but you, then you're the problem. Chat with your players and let them help you sort it.

If it's such a big deal that you can't let this go and they're not all that interested in following someone else's story, y'know because they want to make their own. Then stop the campaign and start a new one.

When worrying about canon in pretty much any situation I have one very simple rule: don't. No good ever comes of it.

I'm worrying whether my players are playing in canon with my homebrewed setting. I have a time paradox contingency.

[nedz]

I run my own settings too; but if I were to use another setting then I would reinterpret/rewrite/lampshade/lampoon (as appropriate) any and all canon.

If you try to stick to someone else's canon then you are either going to 'get it wrong' or get spoilered — at least as far as any of your players who might care are concerned.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Well, how about you pin things to a less current point in the time line instead of trying to keep cutting edge?

Because cutting edge is when the Adventure Paths are set.

[Gnorman]

Sounds like the issue's in your own head. If your players don't care, and Paizo doesn't care (extremely likely), what's the problem if you get a few dates/characters wrong?

Worst case scenario, you can always retcon it if someone makes a stink, which seems unlikely in the first place.

It's supposed to be a fun game, not an exercise in academic rigor. Remember: we're always our own worst critics. I doubt your players will judge you harshly (or at all) for deviating from the source material. If you're unsure of your own writing, it's understandable to want to use something that's already been written out for you - but you don't need to follow the setting canon like scripture. No one's going to punish you for it.

[Felhammer]

Stop keeping up with the Paizos.

I mean honestly, set an arbitrary date for your campaign to begin and say "from this date onwards, anything new must be analyzed before being accepted into my version of Golarion."

You aren't having fun, so you need to change (because Paizo certainly isn't going to).

[JoshuaZ]

This is part of why I run my own settings. But even if one isn't going to do so, it really shouldn't matter. Almost every (every?) game I've played with a pre-existing setting the DM has monkeyed with stuff from canon, removing things they don't like, or adding in cities in geographically logical locations or much larger changes. Moreover, messing with canon actually has a helpful aspect in helping prevent players from metagaming as much and helps keep a more fair balance between players who know the setting well and those who don't.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Stop keeping up with the Paizos.

I mean honestly, set an arbitrary date for your campaign to begin and say "from this date onwards, anything new must be analyzed before being accepted into my version of Golarion."

You aren't having fun, so you need to change (because Paizo certainly isn't going to).

I've had the same problem with other campaign settings, especially Forgotten Realms and Midnight.

But when I try to write my own campaign setting, it's cliched and full of plot holes with a horribly geographically inaccurate map and names that are blatantly stolen from Arthurian literature.

[Big Fau]

And this is the reason I stay away from Forgotten Realms...

To be honest, it really doesn't matter what is or isn't officially canon in your game. You decide the canon, even if you are using official material. If you want Krune to still be alive in your campaign it's entirely within your authority to do so. Unless you are a player, in which case it's up to whoever is running the game.

Personally, if I paid attention to the official novels and such my campaigns would be a hell of a lot weirder than they already are.

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Like there being an entire army of weresharks, and a hybrid werewolf/wereshark priest of the Silver Flame trying his damndest to spread the faith under the sea (and/or purge the wereshark population if needed). Or a major city having been overrun by said weresharks.

[Grinner]

I've had the same problem with other campaign settings, especially Forgotten Realms and Midnight.

But when I try to write my own campaign setting, it's cliched and full of plot holes with a horribly geographically inaccurate map and names that are blatantly stolen from Arthurian literature.

A) Stop banking on Arthurian romance and Tolkien's writings. D&D doesn't even do either very well.

B) When in doubt, give the players something to kill.

C) Read this.

[Winds]

As I understand it, each setting has a book dedicated to explaining that setting. Forgotten Realms Setting and Monsters of Faerun are all you would ever need to make use of the FR setting-and those can slide, if necessary. That's as an example.

For your particular issue, I would recommend the wikia page for Golarion. You get the basics about the pantheon, any oddities in the magic system, and a lowdown on the major civilizations. Nothing else needed. If your players enjoy it with or without the advancing lore, good.

Speaking personally, that's what turned me off of FR-too many epic or quasi-epic NPCs to work around. As a DM I had to fiat them away from a player who knew the setting better than me, and as a player it got old knowing that my team would pretty much always going to be among the smallest fish in the pond. I don't know Golarion well enough to know if it has those issues exactly, however.


That aside, even just focus on your homebrew setting. No extra resources needed, and if the inconsistencies bother you, then I know you'll fix them-thereby improving your worldbuilding skills and world. (Don't worry about cliches and Authorian themes too much. There is nothing new under the sun, and both the cliche styles ans Authorian themes stuck around for a reason. Use them if you think they fit.)

[JoshuaZ]

But when I try to write my own campaign setting, it's cliched and full of plot holes with a horribly geographically inaccurate map and names that are blatantly stolen from Arthurian literature.

One thing I've found that helped (disclaimer: I've only DMed once) is to talk to players about what they are interested in backstory wise, and then use things they want to do to help decide what to do and the like.

For example, one of my players wanted to be a witch, so I looked a bit into that and made a set of seven witch-goddesses. That player then suggested that I name the goddesses after the Pleiades which then gave me a host of additional mythological inspiration to draw from.

Another player wrote a very long, extremely detailed backstory. Most people play characters who are loners, but this one is playing an elf who is about 300 years old and already has a family. Parts of their backstory involved some small kingdoms to the north of the main empire in the setting, and that helped me flush that out a lot also.

Now, this doesn't work with all players. One player I have is playing the strong, stoic warrior (Well, was. The character died last session.) And so I didn't really get much from them. But pretty much everyone else was really helpful.

So, when world building, it helps to have broad ideas, specific aspects you want, and then have the players help fill out other aspects.

[tasw]

I try to run my stuff as close to canon as possible,

Lose this idea entirely. Your problem is solved. Paizo isnt gonna kick your door in and beat you up if you dont stick to canon. And unless you have very unusual players most of them wont have any idea what canon is beyond the very core Paizo books, and some of your players wont even know or care about that.

Just like with the forgotten realms the cannon is a starting point for a new campaign. Not something you need to constantly keep up with mid game.

Whenever you start a new campaign catch up on the newer canon and decide what to keep and what to ditch. Then your new campaign lives on its own merits.

[Felhammer]

I've had the same problem with other campaign settings, especially Forgotten Realms and Midnight.

But when I try to write my own campaign setting, it's cliched and full of plot holes with a horribly geographically inaccurate map and names that are blatantly stolen from Arthurian literature.

To be honest, the Forgotten Realms are terribly inaccurate geographically speaking. Its geography (especially the Mountain Chains) are completely arbitrarily, with little baring on factual geography.

To be honest, very few players really care about geography that much. They just want to dive into a world and be apart of a story. The fact that the the Wolfspear Mountains were created when two proto-continents collided a billion years ago really has no bearing on a campaign.

Yes you should keep things vaguely realistic but don't sweat the details that much.

If borrowing from Arthurian legend bugs you, then stay the heck away from it. Go to Google Translate and pick a language none of your players would know (like say Lao or Georgian) and use that as the base for your language. Then come up with a theme for your world (like post-Zombie Apocalypse, or the war between Order and Chaos, or Sword and Sorcery). From there you can either start at the Macro-stage or the Micro-stage. Often it is easier for newbie world creators to start on the small side. So put a dot on a piece of paper. Name it. Describe how/why it was built, who rules it, what kind of people live there. Then draw a few more dots and do the same for them. Eventually you will have enough information so that you will have something on the order of a County completely described. Just start there. Have the PCs be locals. Then slowly detail out the world in concentric circles as your PCs go exploring.

[Joe the Rat]

Seriously, Fudge the Canon. It's Your Table, Your World. This ain't Star Wars.

Look at it this way: If you strictly follow the Paizo Plotline, your players will in effect have ZERO influence on the world. Their story is not written in anywhere. The events of the module will be assumed or ignored on future storylines. There is no branching plot for you.

Mistakes happen. You get something wrong on information, then either 1) What you said is now the newreality, or 2) Their sources were mistaken. Information isn't perfect in our high-bandwidth wired society. A Medieval-Renaissance fantasy setting is bound to have errors... Or deliberate mysteries?

It's not worth the worry.

[Gnorman]

The wonderful part about D&D is that you always have a perfect explanation for any logical inconsistencies.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

As I understand it, each setting has a book dedicated to explaining that setting. Forgotten Realms Setting and Monsters of Faerun are all you would ever need to make use of the FR setting-and those can slide, if necessary. That's as an example.

For your particular issue, I would recommend the wikia page for Golarion. You get the basics about the pantheon, any oddities in the magic system, and a lowdown on the major civilizations. Nothing else needed. If your players enjoy it with or without the advancing lore, good.

You misunderstand. I do HAVE the Inner Sea World Guide. But that stuff's vague, so I turn to the supplemental books that are released for greater detail. For instance, say I want to play a certain clan from Sarkoris. The book Lost Kingdoms has a list of every Sarkorian clan at the time of its destruction, and by cross-referencing that list with information elsewhere in the book, as well as other books like The Worldwound, I can find which specific clans have no information about them, and thus are best to steal for use with my own characters.

What frustrates me is that it feels like there's some areas that still are too vague that are explained in books I can't access due to a lack of funds or time to read them. It feels like I can't keep up with the setting and thus if I do something, it'll turn out to be proven wrong, and I always view Paizo's writing as superior to mine.

Speaking personally, that's what turned me off of FR-too many epic or quasi-epic NPCs to work around. As a DM I had to fiat them away from a player who knew the setting better than me, and as a player it got old knowing that my team would pretty much always going to be among the smallest fish in the pond. I don't know Golarion well enough to know if it has those issues exactly, however.

Speaking from personal experience, I can tell you that there ARE epic and quasi-epic NPCs in the game, but most of the time they're relatively out of the way so PCs can do their thing. Most are antagonists for the PCs to beat the crap out of anyway.

That aside, even just focus on your homebrew setting. No extra resources needed, and if the inconsistencies bother you, then I know you'll fix them-thereby improving your worldbuilding skills and world. (Don't worry about cliches and Authorian themes too much. There is nothing new under the sun, and both the cliche styles ans Authorian themes stuck around for a reason. Use them if you think they fit.)

I've tried world-building before, even read The Giant's articles back to back. But it just seems so hard. I wouldn't even GM if I could get away with it, but unfortunately if that happens then I don't play at all. The last time I world-built was a cooperative venture with another person, and while I thought it was cool at the time it eventually started to bother me. So...the thorns cover everything except the clearings where the cities are? How do the cities have enough food to support themselves? There's a massive underground city? Then how to the surfacers mine for ore to make tools and weapons? Shopping in the main city is handled by paying people to scavenge, steal and barter for what you want and then give the item to you? How is that regulated? How are prices set? What started out as a fun attempt at building something that would make Neil Gaiman proud quickly turned into a logistical nightmare.

Another detailed world I set up was a pocket dimension where inscrutable beings brought adventurers and forced them to play games, fight battles and solve puzzles in some sort of grand competition. I had detailed personalities for each being, what their domains were like and the kinds of challenges they preferred to give. When I tried to run my players through it, all I could come up with were a few stupid riddles I got off the internet and they couldn't figure out without me providing a lot of hints.

[tasw]

You cant be "wrong" when your writing your campaign world. Even if its a published setting. its still your world.

If you think Paizo's writing is always superior.... read more. They're writing is often sketchy and sometimes just downright trite and amateurish.

But if you must go with their precedent, they contradict themselves all the time. So why the heck shouldnt you?

If your really worried about world building being believable then do what warhammer did (not 40k) take a map of the real world (Europe basically in that case) and stick fantasy nations in it.

I did it with Greece once. It was the height of Spartan power, Orcs roamed the Ural mountains, darkest Afrika was home to wild gnolls, Egypt was the eternal theocracy of a powerful lich, Elves got Britain (of course), dwarves got the Andes mountains, and wild human barbarian tribes roamed the german wilds and everything east of the "civilized" lands of Greece.

You dont even have to write a map. Just find a map of the time period you want to emulate and shade in who rules what and put a little thought into the interactions.

[Totally Guy]

Can you link us to the set of books you're talking about?

[Yora]

One thing I've found that helped (disclaimer: I've only DMed once) is to talk to players about what they are interested in backstory wise, and then use things they want to do to help decide what to do and the like.

No, it doesn't! Player's have no preferences or wishes whatsoever at all! "We play anything you come up with" is the only reply you'll ever get.

[Lorsa]

I don't care a single bit about canon in any game setting. I take what I like and don't care about the rest. Setting material is supposed to be a help, not a constraint. So screw the canon whenever it suits you and go with whatever will be fun for your group. That's my advice anyway.

[Winds]

I've tried world-building before, even read The Giant's articles back to back. But it just seems so hard. I wouldn't even GM if I could get away with it, but unfortunately if that happens then I don't play at all. The last time I world-built was a cooperative venture with another person, and while I thought it was cool at the time it eventually started to bother me. So...the thorns cover everything except the clearings where the cities are? How do the cities have enough food to support themselves? There's a massive underground city? Then how to the surfacers mine for ore to make tools and weapons? Shopping in the main city is handled by paying people to scavenge, steal and barter for what you want and then give the item to you? How is that regulated? How are prices set? What started out as a fun attempt at building something that would make Neil Gaiman proud quickly turned into a logistical nightmare.

Another detailed world I set up was a pocket dimension where inscrutable beings brought adventurers and forced them to play games, fight battles and solve puzzles in some sort of grand competition. I had detailed personalities for each being, what their domains were like and the kinds of challenges they preferred to give. When I tried to run my players through it, all I could come up with were a few stupid riddles I got off the internet and they couldn't figure out without me providing a lot of hints.

Both of those sound like a lot of fun. Even if you haven't quite hammered everything out, I'd enjoy playing in those worlds-realistic or not.

[erikun]

From what I've seen, most people who run a campaign in an established canon just use the canon up to that point, and diverge as needed. Events happening in foreign areas still happen according to canon - to give a sense of background events still taking place in the world - but local events only happen according to what's going on in the campaign.

I mean, what would happen if the PCs left town to go kill some orcs in the morning, and came back in the evening to find it overrun by an army and occupied for months by hostile forces? Such results would be silly, but would easily happen if you stuck to canon changes in the campaign in between settings. Isn't the Pathfinder timeline tied to real time in a one year-one year ratio anyways, even though your campaign might only progress hours or days for each weekly session? There seems to be a time discrepancy there anyways.

[Kish]

Question: What am I doing wrong?!
Answer: I try to run my stuff as close to canon as possible.

Let it go or learn to enjoy being constantly stressed.

[jindra34]

Question: What am I doing wrong?!
Answer: I try to run my stuff as close to canon as possible.

Let it go or learn to enjoy being constantly stressed.

I think its not trying to run things as close to cannon as possible. Its trying to run things so that they won't conflict with things that might come in as canon. Running the game with everything that has happened in universe, at the time of starting (both in character and out) shouldn't be too much of an issue. Forgetting to remember that PCs can and will influence events and trying to hold to canonicity past that point? That way leads to insanity and RAILROADing, lots of both.

[Morty]

Another thing you might try is to stick to the basic canon. Use what's written in the setting book or whatever it is that Golarion has, and ignore the later supplements and additions. This way you have the canon setting without trying to keep up with an ever-changing metaplot.