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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    SolithKnightGuy

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    Default Redemption is a rare and special thing

    As said by Soon, redemption is not for everyone. However, I'd like to know which of the villains, antagonists or characters who have performed evil deeds you would (have) like(d) most to be redeemed? Whose character arc on the path of redemption would you like to read about the most?

    Xykon?
    Redcloak?
    Tsukiko?
    Belkar?
    Vaarsuvius?
    Nale?
    Thog?
    Sabine?
    Tarquin?
    Malack?
    Miko?
    Or a less major character?

    For me, personally, it'd have to be Vaarsuvius. V performed one (incredibly) evil act, and I like to think that singular mistakes can be corrected (even mistakes as big as Familicide). V continuallly trying to make up for it by serving others instead of the self would be a nice evolution of character in my eyes.
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    Default Re: Redemption is a rare and special thing

    It surprises me to realise it, but I would be quite curious to see a Tsukiko arc of that manner. Given that I fully expect V to make some strides towards redemption even if s/he doesn't succeed, I'm just not as curious.
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    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: Redemption is a rare and special thing

    Quote Originally Posted by Ceaon View Post
    Xykon?
    Not going to happen. We've never gotten any indication he feels the slightest hint of remorse for his actions, or is even capable of feeling remorse for his actions.

    Redcloak?
    Possible, but at the rate he's going, unlikely. It all depends on how he develops though.

    Tsukiko?
    I think she's dead and not coming back. I also don't see any feasible way she could redeem herself at this point.
    Belkar?
    Maybe. I really can't say for certain, but I doubt it. I don't think he has the time left to pull off a true redemption.
    Vaarsuvius?
    I think this is what she's going for. However, there's a difference between remorse for your actions, and true redemption. We'll see what happens.
    Nale?
    No chance in hell. Assuming he's even coming back ((Unlikely, though possible)) He is very much a villain and has never once shown any sort of indication he feels bad about anything he's done.
    Thog?
    Possible I guess. However, he's in all probability dead and gone by now.
    Sabine?
    Not without truly extraordinary circumstances.
    Tarquin?
    There's nothing he could do that I would for a moment believe is actual redemption. He might be affably evil, but he's still a complete monster. There's no way he can be redeemed without being a karma houdini.

    Malack?
    If Aunt Laurin says Malack is never coming back, he's probably never coming back, which rules out redemption.


    Miko?
    I'm pretty sure the entire point was that she isn't going to be redeemed.

    This is all just my own opinions, and impressions of the characters, naturally.
    Last edited by Mystic Muse; 2013-08-27 at 01:52 AM.

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    Planetar

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    Default Re: Redemption is a rare and special thing

    I don't believe MitD ever was evil, but he did evilish acts out of naivety.

    I also think he's been awaken enough to realize much http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0651.html

    And he's started onto a path into a greater world: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0661.html

    As for others, Red Cloak has a chance, but I believe he's too stubborn to realize his brother was right, because that means admitting he's wrong.

    V, is on a path, where V could redeem. Especially since V understood what they did was wrong, and why, and how it impacted others. But redemption is indeed special, and V's current clarity is something damn hard to live with.
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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Redemption is a rare and special thing

    Quote Originally Posted by Ceaon View Post
    For me, personally, it'd have to be Vaarsuvius. V performed one (incredibly) evil act, and I like to think that singular mistakes can be corrected (even mistakes as big as Familicide). V continuallly trying to make up for it by serving others instead of the self would be a nice evolution of character in my eyes.
    My vote is always first and foremost to V. She did bad, but unlike so many, she understands the magnitude of her crime, carries the guilt with no attempt to mitigate it or make excuses, and strives to better herself and save the world anyway.

    Despite the very real issues surrounding V, I can't help but hope some day she finds peace with herself, and I'd like it if somehow she could save her relationship with her family.

    On a more theoretical note, I'd like to see what it was like if Malack had been given cause and a chance to redeem himself, possibly through the influence of Durkon in different circumstances. Malack was an odd combination of an evil character with virtues one could identify with; I can't help but think he would have been fascinating if he'd turned from the slaughterhouse empire in his future and had to learn to be good. Who knows what kind of influence that might have ended up having on the Order of the Stick, the Linear Guild, and Team Tarquin?
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    Default Re: Redemption is a rare and special thing

    Nale, Redcloak, maybe Tsukiko? I don't know why. Redcloak is a sympathetic villain out to do his evil for a good cause so there is definite potential for that.
    Tsukiko? yea, I can see it also being a thing for her, she just wanted to be loved really, she just gone looking into all the wrong places for it.

    as for why Nale, I don't know why I want him redeemed. He is a jerk, a bully, a coward, and by Word of Giant he is just as evil as Xykon but without the power. but then again, doesn't he need it the most? He is a young fool, reckless and full of vengeance. He is not completely foregone. there is still time for him to turn back from the dangerous road he walks down, or at least there was. Still time for him to realize that by leaving Tarquin's empire, he is already free of his father, that he doesn't have to do anything extravagant like that to be free of him- if he just let go of all his hatred, his obsession with getting revenge, he ironically would be free of it all. Free of letting it effect him, free of it being something important in his mind. If he just let go, what peace of mind he would have, what possibilities he would have! but alas, he clung to his hate.
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    Default Re: Redemption is a rare and special thing

    Vaarsuvius, possibly Belkar, possibly Durkon depending on how evil he becomes as a vampire - although all three depend on what exactly you define as "redemption". I also think it's possible that we may see a now-neutral or even good Hilgya at some point, though it's not very likely and I certainly don't expect a "redemption arc" either way.

    I'm 99% certain Redcloak is ultimately a tragic villain. I also think that any hypothetical "redemption" for him would probably not involve an alignment change anyway.

    The MitD doesn't really count, because he was never really evil.

    No one else strikes me as being a remote possibility.

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    Default Re: Redemption is a rare and special thing

    I'm not curious about V's and Belkar's redemptions because they're in the process of happening. Redcloak's would probably be the most interesting, but that's because Redcloak is the most interesting villain.

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    NinjaGirl

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    Default Re: Redemption is a rare and special thing

    I feel like a lot of those characters could have a very plausible and interesting redemption arc. Vaarsuvius and Redcloak are the two who most interest me, though. Between them, I think Vaarsuvius is likely to have a redemption story in the comic itself. Redcloak is more up in the air - he's burned a lot of bridges since the start of SoD, and I think he's so set in his ways now that true redemption would be a huge feat. Ironically, Vaarsuvius's crimes were perhaps even greater, but V is the one to feel genuine remorse for them, and so we might get to see what redemption from a truly monstrous crime looks like after all.

    I'd also like to see Belkar make it to at least neutral, too, though that's honestly as much for Mr. Scruffy's sake as anything.
    Last edited by DaggerPen; 2013-08-27 at 04:49 AM.
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    Default Re: Redemption is a rare and special thing

    Quote Originally Posted by Mystic Muse View Post
    There's nothing he could do that I would for a moment believe is actual redemption. He might be affably evil, but he's still a complete monster. There's no way he can be redeemed without being a karma houdini.
    I don't think for a second that Tarquin is going to be redeemed, nor that he has the slightest interest in being redeemed.

    But what does karma have to do with anything? To call someone a 'karma houdini' you first have to subscribe to the notion of karma. Which is common in eastern culture, but not so much in western culture. More importantly, D&D doesn't run on karma, and the OOTS doesn't run on karma.

    If Belkar decides he wants to become good, he doesn't first have to do an amount of good equal to the amount of bad he did before he can do so. He will be good from the moment he genuinely starts trying to do good.

    In D&D, atonement literally works like that: The burden of your evil deeds is entirely removed by atonement, and all that is required for this is being 'truly repentant and desirous of setting right its misdeeds'.

    The OOTS is not D&D, but we've had paladins and angels discuss the subject, and they seem to subscribe to this point of view as well, so that's pretty strong evidence that the OOTS world works the same.

    Karma just isn't a thing in OOTS.

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    Default Re: Redemption is a rare and special thing

    Quote Originally Posted by Elfey View Post
    As for others, Red Cloak has a chance, but I believe he's too stubborn to realize his brother was right, because that means admitting he's wrong.
    I agree with this very much, Redcloak has already repeatedly established that he isn't the sort to give up after sacrificing so much (SoD and this comic), he is most certainly a victim of the sunk cost fallacy.

    Redemption cloak is not a flavor we'll see in my opinion.
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    Default Re: Redemption is a rare and special thing

    Redcloak: It would be great to watch, but I doubt he'd succeed at it.

    V: Well, yeah.

    Belkar: No. Even if he becomes and improved person, redemption would intale making up for past misdeeds, and, like Miko, I don't see him investing any time or energy in that.
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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Redemption is a rare and special thing

    Quote Originally Posted by Diadem View Post
    I don't think for a second that Tarquin is going to be redeemed, nor that he has the slightest interest in being redeemed.

    But what does karma have to do with anything? To call someone a 'karma houdini' you first have to subscribe to the notion of karma. Which is common in eastern culture, but not so much in western culture. More importantly, D&D doesn't run on karma, and the OOTS doesn't run on karma.

    If Belkar decides he wants to become good, he doesn't first have to do an amount of good equal to the amount of bad he did before he can do so. He will be good from the moment he genuinely starts trying to do good.

    In D&D, atonement literally works like that: The burden of your evil deeds is entirely removed by atonement, and all that is required for this is being 'truly repentant and desirous of setting right its misdeeds'.

    The OOTS is not D&D, but we've had paladins and angels discuss the subject, and they seem to subscribe to this point of view as well, so that's pretty strong evidence that the OOTS world works the same.

    Karma just isn't a thing in OOTS.
    Karma houdini is a TVtropes term.

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    Default Re: Redemption is a rare and special thing

    Quote Originally Posted by Ceaon View Post
    As said by Soon, redemption is not for everyone. However, I'd like to know which of the villains, antagonists or characters who have performed evil deeds you would (have) like(d) most to be redeemed? Whose character arc on the path of redemption would you like to read about the most?

    Xykon?
    Redcloak?
    Tsukiko?
    Belkar?
    Vaarsuvius?
    Nale?
    Thog?
    Sabine?
    Tarquin?
    Malack?
    Miko?
    Or a less major character?

    For me, personally, it'd have to be Vaarsuvius. V performed one (incredibly) evil act, and I like to think that singular mistakes can be corrected (even mistakes as big as Familicide). V continuallly trying to make up for it by serving others instead of the self would be a nice evolution of character in my eyes.
    Most of these characters can't be redeemed anyway, simply because they are evil and they like it. They enjoy it too much to feel remorse from their actions.

    Of the people who could, I would say that I was to see Vaarsuvius, Belkar, Miko, and Therkla being given a chance to walk the path of redemption. Regardless of whether they are able or allowed to reach the end or not, just seeing them striving towards that direction is enough for me.

    I doubt we could ever actually see the last two, plotwise, but it's possible. For example, both Therkla and Miko might not being allowed into the Afterlife that they want. Miko is probably classified as Lawful Neutral now, while Therkla is obviously Chaotic Evil. However, Therkla might want to get into the Chaotic good Afterlife to wait for Elan there, while Miko would want to rejoin her companions in the Lawful Good territory. Each one of them could set out on a quest of redemption, as far as they are allowed, to reach for their respective destinations. It might make for good comedy if they were given tests to prove their Goodness, and yet they use their Chaoticness or Lawfulness to challenge that test, like what happened in the Oracle's valley.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mystic Muse View Post
    There's nothing he could do that I would for a moment believe is actual redemption. He might be affably evil, but he's still a complete monster. There's no way he can be redeemed without being a karma houdini.
    Actually, if he were a Karma Houdini, he won't need to be redeemed in the first place.

    Quote Originally Posted by Diadem View Post
    Karma just isn't a thing in OOTS.
    disagrees with you

    Well, karma can take the form of many things, and is quite an effective plot device to narrate a story. In fact, actual Karma Houdinis are quite rare, as most bad guys tend to get what they get for a lifetime of bad deeds at the end of the story, and no less than what they deserve. That's a form of karma in and of itself.
    Last edited by M.A.D; 2013-08-27 at 11:39 AM.
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    Default Re: Redemption is a rare and special thing

    Xykon? Hell no. Xykon is evil. He always has been and became worse on his transformation. He is as CE as a Demon would be.

    Redcloak? No. He has known all the time what he's doing was wrong. He has so much guilt and does not even admit to it. He cannot get redeemed.

    Tsukiko? No.

    Belkar? Hell no.

    Vaarsuvius? Maybe. But he has to pay a price for his deed, which I doubt is in any way redeemable (given I do not expect him to live very long).

    Nale? No.

    Thog? Hell no.

    Sabine? No. On top of her deeds, she is a being of pure evil and has been for over 2000 years. Without something major happening ("Vengeance for a dead lover") does not count she's not going to have the necessary character development.

    Tarquin? No. This is possibly a "Hell no" as well.

    Malack? No.

    Miko? No. No way given she did not even understand what went wrong with her (not her last deed, but with her entire character and outlook on being Lawful Good and a Paladin).
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    Default Re: Redemption is a rare and special thing

    I think V's entire point is that he/she's headed towards some sort of redemption. If they survive that redemption is debatable.

    I think RedCloak may be headed for some sort of change, but that it will definitely be shortly before his death. I'm not sure he will be able to atone for what he's done, but I DO think it's possible he will recognize his errors before the end.

    All the rest? No.

    EXCEPT: Of course Therkla could be redeemed. Of course. I don't see how I could just write off that character, were she still alive.
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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Redemption is a rare and special thing

    I think people are misreading the initial post. The question isn't "who can be redeemed" but "who would you like to see redeemed or have seen redeemed". It's pretty hypothetical. I think the OP is well aware that Xykon and Miko cannot be redeemed right now.
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    NinjaGuy

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    Default Re: Redemption is a rare and special thing

    V, probably. He's feeling remorse for what she did, and will probably try to atone for it. Well, keeping their power in check more often counts.
    Sabine... maybe. At the very least, she might team up with the Order against Tarquin, but that itself isn't redemption.
    Miko.... She's gone for good. As much as I would like to see her redeem herself, I doubt it will ever happen.
    Nale... he's dead for good, and he wouldn't seem to be to type for that. He wanted to be from his father, and was a major scumbag.
    Tsukiko... All she wanted was to be loved, so I'd like to see her get redeemed, but how would she come back?
    Redcloak... He's a sympathetic villain, but he's too stubborn and determined to follow his god's plan. Also, he's a specieist, and I don't really see him changing his ways, even after what Right-Eye said.
    Malack... He's gone for good.
    Thog... Presumably, he'd dead, but he doesn't really seem to be the type for redemption, to me.
    Belkar... I hope so, but I don't know how long he has for this.
    Xykon... Definitely not.
    Last edited by Kingault; 2013-08-27 at 12:30 PM.

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    Imp

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    Default Re: Redemption is a rare and special thing

    Xykon? Would read like some horrible fan fict.

    Redcloak? Not entirely out of character, I can't imagine any sort of redemption that wouldn't involved martyrdom, smoking Xykon, and the ghost of his brother.

    Tsukiko? This is another one that would be fundamentally out of character. Just by going how she died, she doesn't get it. Her evilness was childish aND petty, not so much strictly malevolent. It would be a shallow pointless arc.

    Belkar? Now we're getting somewhere. This would be interesting (and actually possible but that's not the point)
    A self aware psychopath is the best we could really hope for. Dexter if you will.

    Vaarsuvius? Meh, bored with the current path shes on.
    Nale? Too out of character. Best he could do is a vicious anti-hero.
    Thog? Nope
    Sabine? Not a demon.
    Tarquin? Who . . .
    Malack? . . . cares

    Miko? She seems similar to Tsukiko even if she were redeemed morally, she'd still be the same person that has committed the act. Redemption wouldn't just require fixing her cosmic karma, she would have to fundamentally change who she is and not be the quasi fascist caricature of a decent person. She would still jump to insane conclusions.

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    Default Re: Redemption is a rare and special thing

    Quote Originally Posted by Diadem View Post
    I don't think for a second that Tarquin is going to be redeemed, nor that he has the slightest interest in being redeemed.

    But what does karma have to do with anything? To call someone a 'karma houdini' you first have to subscribe to the notion of karma. Which is common in eastern culture, but not so much in western culture. More importantly, D&D doesn't run on karma, and the OOTS doesn't run on karma.
    It's a tvtropes term for a villain who, at the end, gets away scot-free for all the horrible things he's done. There are certain villains who can't really be redeemed in the story without it coming off as redemption being cheap and easy, which it isn't supposed to be.

    If Belkar decides he wants to become good, he doesn't first have to do an amount of good equal to the amount of bad he did before he can do so. He will be good from the moment he genuinely starts trying to do good.

    In D&D, atonement literally works like that: The burden of your evil deeds is entirely removed by atonement, and all that is required for this is being 'truly repentant and desirous of setting right its misdeeds'.

    The OOTS is not D&D, but we've had paladins and angels discuss the subject, and they seem to subscribe to this point of view as well, so that's pretty strong evidence that the OOTS world works the same.

    Karma just isn't a thing in OOTS.
    They were going to kick Roy over to the Neutral Good afterlife for one action. There's no way that Belkar or Tarquin could get into any of the good afterlives just by trying to be good. The good afterlives aren't going to forgive 30 years of Tyranny and 200 foot tall flaming letters of burning people because Tarquin has suddenly decided he wants to try to be good.



    Quote Originally Posted by M.A.D View Post
    Most of these characters can't be redeemed anyway, simply because they are evil and they like it. They enjoy it too much to feel remorse from their actions.

    Of the people who could, I would say that I was to see Vaarsuvius, Belkar, Miko, and Therkla being given a chance to walk the path of redemption. Regardless of whether they are able or allowed to reach the end or not, just seeing them striving towards that direction is enough for me.

    I doubt we could ever actually see the last two, plotwise, but it's possible. For example, both Therkla and Miko might not being allowed into the Afterlife that they want. Miko is probably classified as Lawful Neutral now, while Therkla is obviously Chaotic Evil. However, Therkla might want to get into the Chaotic good Afterlife to wait for Elan there, while Miko would want to rejoin her companions in the Lawful Good territory. Each one of them could set out on a quest of redemption, as far as they are allowed, to reach for their respective destinations. It might make for good comedy if they were given tests to prove their Goodness, and yet they use their Chaoticness or Lawfulness to challenge that test, like what happened in the Oracle's valley.
    I could see that. Sounds like it could be quite fun.



    Actually, if he were a Karma Houdini, he won't need to be redeemed in the first place.



    disagrees with you

    Well, karma can take the form of many things, and is quite an effective plot device to narrate a story. In fact, actual Karma Houdinis are quite rare, as most bad guys tend to get what they get for a lifetime of bad deeds at the end of the story, and no less than what they deserve. That's a form of karma in and of itself.
    This is what I mean. Basically, if Tarquin were somehow redeemed, without something really really freaking major, it would basically feel like evil actions have no real consequence in this world.

    Karma Houdini may have been the wrong term to use, but I hope this explains my point a bit better.

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    Default Re: Redemption is a rare and special thing

    Quote Originally Posted by Mystic Muse View Post
    It's a tvtropes term for a villain who, at the end, gets away scot-free for all the horrible things he's done. There are certain villains who can't really be redeemed in the story without it coming off as redemption being cheap and easy, which it isn't supposed to be.
    I'm well aware of that. TVtropes is hardly an infallible source though. And certainly not an infallible source on morality.

    Why isn't redemption supposed to be cheap and easy? Heck, redemption being cheap and easy is the entire point of christianity - which is still the majority religion / worldview in the western world. And christianity is hardly unique with this viewpoint.

    I probably shouldn't say more on this to avoid making this a discussion about real world things. But suffice it to say that the notion of karma is absolutely not something that everyone subscribes too. And in fact in the western world it's definitely a minority view.

    And it's also the point of view this comic takes. The paladins of Azure City are very explicit in their viewpoint that anybody can be redeemed. And even Xykon gets offered redemption in the comic. The atonement spell is another very clear example - there's no mention of any punishment or karma effects.

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    Default Re: Redemption is a rare and special thing

    Quote Originally Posted by Diadem View Post
    In D&D, atonement literally works like that: The burden of your evil deeds is entirely removed by atonement, and all that is required for this is being 'truly repentant and desirous of setting right its misdeeds'.
    You forgot a big part of that: A divine source to intercede on your behalf.

    Atonement spells aren't free. The redemption process without Atonement is a much longer, harder, and arduous process. Otherwise, there wouldn't even be an Atonement spell.

    It's largely because, despite being a the name of a logical fallacy, a Slippery Slope is a real thing. The difference is that it's not guaranteed someone will slide down the slope once they start on it - but it IS much harder to climb back up without risking further sliding.

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    Default Re: Redemption is a rare and special thing

    Quote Originally Posted by Diadem View Post
    I'm well aware of that. TVtropes is hardly an infallible source though. And certainly not an infallible source on morality.

    Why isn't redemption supposed to be cheap and easy?
    Because the entire point of good is that it ISN'T easy. It's called the path less traveled for a reason.

    Turning your life around isn't easy either.

    I probably shouldn't say more on this to avoid making this a discussion about real world things. But suffice it to say that the notion of karma is absolutely not something that everyone subscribes too. And in fact in the western world it's definitely a minority view.
    Maybe, but there are actually quite a few people in the US who believe in Eye for an Eye. It's not hard to find examples of this.

    But we should stay out of real world so that this doesn't turn into another "Morally Justified" thread.

    And it's also the point of view this comic takes. The paladins of Azure City are very explicit in their viewpoint that anybody can be redeemed. And even Xykon gets offered redemption in the comic. The atonement spell is another very clear example - there's no mention of any punishment or karma effects.
    Can you point out a mention of the atonement spell being that quick and easy at any point in the comic? Heck, even in the description of the spell, it mentions that the casters usually cast Geas/Quest on the creature first and have them go on an adventure to prove they're actually repentant first. It also mentions that for actual evil deeds, your deity has to be willing to intercede on your behalf.

    This comic also shows that in the OOTS world, literally one act can change your afterlife from good to neutral. Heck, she even says that if he hadn't gone back, his repentance wouldn't matter, she would still be tossing him in the true neutral bin. I think that alone says that redemption is not cheap and easy in OOTS. Heck, if it were, it'd make the "It's a rare and special thing" title totally invalid.
    Last edited by Mystic Muse; 2013-08-27 at 02:38 PM.

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    Default Re: Redemption is a rare and special thing

    Quote Originally Posted by Rakoa View Post
    I think people are misreading the initial post. The question isn't "who can be redeemed" but "who would you like to see redeemed or have seen redeemed". It's pretty hypothetical. I think the OP is well aware that Xykon and Miko cannot be redeemed right now.
    Yes, this. Perhaps I was unclear.
    "One need not hope in order to undertake, nor succeed in order to persevere."

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    Default Re: Redemption is a rare and special thing

    Quote Originally Posted by Scow2 View Post
    You forgot a big part of that: A divine source to intercede on your behalf.
    Yeah. Basically what that means is that a God is using its divine power and authority to waive, as a special favor to the supplicant, what would otherwise be a requirement.

    It is a suspension of moral law by divine power, just as magic is a suspension of physical law by arcane power.

    It is a literal Deux-ex-Machina.

    Typically, one has to earn the God's favor, and unless the pantheon's got some chaotic neutral God of Inappropriate Atonements whose schtick is the granting of atonement to anyone who asks without conditions just because it amuses him, earning said favor is no easy task.

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    Default Re: Redemption is a rare and special thing

    Quote Originally Posted by Diadem View Post
    I'm well aware of that. TVtropes is hardly an infallible source though. And certainly not an infallible source on morality.
    A pretty solid one on narrative causality, though, which is what's relevant here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Diadem View Post
    Why isn't redemption supposed to be cheap and easy? Heck, redemption being cheap and easy is the entire point of christianity - which is still the majority religion / worldview in the western world. And christianity is hardly unique with this viewpoint.
    No. Read Mere Christianity some time. If you want to continue this discussion, PM me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Diadem View Post
    I probably shouldn't say more on this to avoid making this a discussion about real world things. But suffice it to say that the notion of karma is absolutely not something that everyone subscribes too. And in fact in the western world it's definitely a minority view.
    "What goes around comes around"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Diadem View Post
    And it's also the point of view this comic takes. The paladins of Azure City are very explicit in their viewpoint that anybody can be redeemed. And even Xykon gets offered redemption in the comic. The atonement spell is another very clear example - there's no mention of any punishment or karma effects.
    I agree to some extent, and it's another consequence of morality being a physical force in D&D. But here's the thing: just because redemption is magically available to everyone doesn't mean it's narratively available to everyone, let alone easy for anyone.

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    Default Re: Redemption is a rare and special thing

    Everyone except Xykon and IFCC can be reformed.
    Spoiler
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    Default Re: Redemption is a rare and special thing

    Redemption is a very special thing.

    I don't know about D&D, it may be rare there, but in the real world we need it to be common as muck, very, very special, but common.
    Last edited by halfeye; 2013-08-27 at 03:59 PM.

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    Default Re: Redemption is a rare and special thing

    Redcloak at least had an epiphany regarding other species of goblinoids. I think it would be at least possible for him to have a similar one towards all sapient races at some point in time. No, I do not find this very likely, but I would not rule it out.

    Most other people like Tarquin and Xykon simply know they're Evil and enjoy it. No way will they redeem themselves.
    "And remember... avoid pears... you'll understand when the time comes..."
    -A.S.


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    Default Re: Redemption is a rare and special thing

    Quote Originally Posted by Xelbiuj View Post
    Xykon? Would read like some horrible fan fict
    This is true of all the possible redemption arcs the OP raised, and of redemption arcs generally; redemption arcs are almost always both unbelievable and boring. There hasn't been a complete one yet in OOTS, nor, I hope, will there ever be.

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