afroakuma's Planar Questions Thread III!

[afroakuma]

... i dont even want to think of that, it's giving me a headache
but now i have to ask, how do you predate the multiverse? where did they live? what did they eat? were there other multiverses earlier that they lived on? or do they predate any and all multiverses? how did they come from wherever they were before, to the multiverse?

It's suggested that they are refugees from the previous multiverse and maaaaaay have caused its destruction.

[Amiel]

Do we know which Oerdian ethnicity Vecna belonged to? His history seems to suggest Flannae descent.

Is the Serpent an actual entity or a figment of Vecna's delusions or perhaps his own consciousness cast far-forward whispering from the future?

He was suddenly but inevitably betrayed by Kas, and lost his hand and eye within the confines of mortality. Did this act compel him to seek and achieve divinity or were those plans already well in motion?

[Somensjev]

It's suggested that they are refugees from the previous multiverse and maaaaaay have caused its destruction.

may as in "while tired, your child maaaaay get upset easily" or may as in "tomorrow, i maaaay be abducted by aliens"?
i have to know afroakuma, how much do you know about them ?

[Clistenes]

Do we know which Oerdian ethnicity Vecna belonged to? His history seems to suggest Flannae descent.

Is the Serpent an actual entity or a figment of Vecna's delusions or perhaps his own consciousness cast far-forward whispering from the future?

He was suddenly but inevitably betrayed by Kas, and lost his hand and eye within the confines of mortality. Did this act compel him to seek and achieve divinity or were those plans already well in motion?

I have read Flan (because he lived before the Great Migrations) or maybe Half-Elf (but that is just a rumor).

The Serpent thing is left ambiguous. When Vecna was at the peak of his popularity, besting even the Lady of Pain and the Dark Lords of Ravenloft, it was hinted that the Serpent was the Big Evil Cheese of all the Multiverse, the creature that made magic or the incarnation of Magic itself...But Vecna was kind of pushed aside, and now that the Serpent hasn't been heard about for a lot of time, many people tend to consider it just a figment of Vecna's own mind.

I would say that the guy always wished to be a god. He made himself the immortal archwizard lich-king of a great empire, so divinity was the next step.

[afroakuma]

Do we know which Oerdian ethnicity Vecna belonged to? His history seems to suggest Flannae descent.

He's Flannae, yes (Ur-Flan, to be more specific, though that distinction has died out and never meant much), and was born into slavery, an untouchable, in the city of Fleeth. His mother was Mazell, a slave and one of the last to practice the witch traditions of the Ur-Flan; his father's identity is unknown and likely irrelevant.

Is the Serpent an actual entity or a figment of Vecna's delusions or perhaps his own consciousness cast far-forward whispering from the future?

Unknown. It's suggested that it might actually exist in some capacity, but to what extent, who can say?

An interesting idea I've had, given that the Ur-Flan were wiped out (as Mazell tells Vecna) by witch-hunters, is that the Serpent might in fact be a vestige.

He was suddenly but inevitably betrayed by Kas, and lost his hand and eye within the confines of mortality. Did this act compel him to seek and achieve divinity or were those plans already well in motion?

Unspecified. Exactly what happened during the betrayal is unclear; some sources say that both Vecna and Kas were blown away in that final battle; Kas to Cavitius where he became a vampire, and Vecna to some unknown realm (less his hand and eye) where he achieved demigodhood.

may as in "while tired, your child maaaaay get upset easily" or may as in "tomorrow, i maaaay be abducted by aliens"?
i have to know afroakuma, how much do you know about them ?

As much as anyone does, presumably. Canon works most through hints and nonspecifics. It's fun like that.

[Somensjev]

-snip-

As much as anyone does, presumably. Canon works most through hints and nonspecifics. It's fun like that.

but i wanna know more
first it gives me a headache, then it doesnt even tell me what happened..
why do i keep coming back for more?

[Urpriest]

It's suggested that they are refugees from the previous multiverse and maaaaaay have caused its destruction.

Do you know of any adventures/stories that LeShay were used for? I'm curious if they showed up anywhere besides in general descriptions, and what sort of roles WotC imagined them playing.

[Lord_Gareth]

but i wanna know more
first it gives me a headache, then it doesnt even tell me what happened..
why do i keep coming back for more?

Because Afroakuma has snared your soul with his evil will.

[afroakuma]

but i wanna know more
first it gives me a headache, then it doesnt even tell me what happened..
why do i keep coming back for more?

There isn't more to know. The leShay were pretty much introduced that way and that was it. It's been suggested (and makes for an amusing reason for the info to not exist) that their whole timeline got erased somehow, which means they might not even be from a previous multiverse so much as a parallel reality that failed and/or rebooted into this one.

Do you know of any adventures/stories that LeShay were used for? I'm curious if they showed up anywhere besides in general descriptions, and what sort of roles WotC imagined them playing.

I do not. They may have cropped up in 4E at some point, but I rarely care what goes on in that zoo of nonsense 4E calls a canon.

Because Afroakuma has snared your soul with his evil will.

I'm fun like that.

[Somensjev]

is there anything else that's lived as long/longer/almost as long as the aboleths have?

[Endarire]

Greetings, afroakuma!

I had a dream recently about a new game with various odd classes. One of them was the "Afro Mage." The iconic character was a black male human who wore an orange jumpsuit and had a black afro.

Onto questions!

1: Why are the 9 traditional alignments rooted in the planes?

2: Why do seemingly all genies hate it when mortals call them and ask for wishes or some variety? What about doing favors (or otherwise paying something) to get such wishes?

3: How do I get to the Elemental Plane of Snakes?

4: Where do private demiplanes (such as ones made by genesis) appear on the Spelljammer Flow Chart? Are such things visitable by Spelljammers?

5: If I were to make my own planar cosmology, and I want to keep the number of planes small (let's just say 6ish besides the Material Plane), what are the best themes for planes?

[afroakuma]

is there anything else that's lived as long/longer/almost as long as the aboleths have?

Oh sure; it's just that most of them would be outsiders. The aboleths were the first mortal race to arise in this multiverse.

1: Why are the 9 traditional alignments rooted in the planes?

They represent the combinations of orientation along the Ancient Axis (Law & Chaos) and the Prime Axis (Good & Evil) around the Great Fulcrum (Neutrality). And yes I just made those terms up, but it serves to illustrate my point.

2: Why do seemingly all genies hate it when mortals call them and ask for wishes or some variety? What about doing favors (or otherwise paying something) to get such wishes?

Genies can't generally grant themselves or one another wishes; only mortals, which means that part of their, euh, "biology," so to speak, is entirely a vulnerability to exploitation by lesser beings.

Given that fact, it's entirely possible (and would make a great plot hook) that the genie races were originally much more magically potent and had greater command of their own native abilities and that it was the gods of the mortal races that somehow bound them to the current rules.

3: How do I get to the Elemental Plane of Snakes?

I'm going to refrain from making the obvious joke regarding monkey-fighting snakes and point out that there is no such Monday-to-Friday plane. Yep, did it anyway.

4: Where do private demiplanes (such as ones made by genesis) appear on the Spelljammer Flow Chart?

They don't. The flow chart shows the Prime Material Plane and the phlogiston. Genesis creates demiplanes on the Ethereal Plane, almost all of which are far too small to appear on that chart.

Are such things visitable by Spelljammers?

If you could get a spelljammer onto the Ethereal Plane and sail it into the demiplane, sure.

5: If I were to make my own planar cosmology, and I want to keep the number of planes small (let's just say 6ish besides the Material Plane), what are the best themes for planes?

Depends how you define "best." I'd say it should meet the needs of the universe you want to lay out. That won't be the same answer for everyone.

[Urpriest]

Depends how you define "best." I'd say it should meet the needs of the universe you want to lay out. That won't be the same answer for everyone.

In case you're looking for resources, Endarire, there's a decent guide to making your own pantheon and making sure it has everything it needs to in Deities and Demigods. Pantheons tend to be a good way to structure a multiverse.

[Clistenes]

Genies can't generally grant themselves or one another wishes; only mortals, which means that part of their, euh, "biology," so to speak, is entirely a vulnerability to exploitation by lesser beings.

Given that fact, it's entirely possible (and would make a great plot hook) that the genie races were originally much more magically potent and had greater command of their own native abilities and that it was the gods of the mortal races that somehow bound them to the current rules.

I think that Efreet and Noble Djinns should have a system of gift exchange similar to many cultures from the real world. If you are somebody important who visit somebody also important, you bring gifts to offer to you host, who is honor-bound to give you back something of similar value in return. The genies could gather enomous wealth from the gifts of their non-genie guests and hosts, and all they would give in return would be their wishes.

[Fable Wright]

There isn't more to know. The leShay were pretty much introduced that way and that was it. It's been suggested (and makes for an amusing reason for the info to not exist) that their whole timeline got erased somehow, which means they might not even be from a previous multiverse so much as a parallel reality that failed and/or rebooted into this one.

Is there anything in the current multiverse that could be used as a similar reset button?

Also, how do Powers and Aboleths view the leShay?

[afroakuma]

Is there anything in the current multiverse that could be used as a similar reset button?

"Used?" It wasn't a matter of "use;" it was a matter of something going terribly wrong. The leShay are neither very talkative nor very proud of what happened in their past. If it is true that their origin is a collapsed multiverse that they escaped from, then it ended and a new one was made in its place.

Also, how do Powers and Aboleths view the leShay?

Powers are content to ignore them and are in turn ignored by the leShay, who recognize themselves as a lost remnant of something that can never be recovered. Aboleths feel like they've solved the mystery of the leShay, such as it is, so they don't really care either and aren't interested in meddling with them.

[Mystify]

is there anything that illustrates how convoluted an agreement between two devils would be, and the kinds of loopholes that they would exploit, and the counter-loophole clauses they include, etc? I want to see how devils guard against the tricks employed by devils.

Devils are well known for following the letter of the law while perverting the spirit to do various nasty, evil things. are lawful good exemplars going to follow the spirit of an agreement, not just the letter, or will they also go against the spirit of an agreement to achieve good ends? I presume lawful neutral simply follows the letter of the law precisely, with no attempts to twist it, but also no attempts to read beyond the letter.

[Somensjev]

back on the topic of dragons. afroakuma, how much can you tell me about the accomplishments of Io?

[afroakuma]

is there anything that illustrates how convoluted an agreement between two devils would be, and the kinds of loopholes that they would exploit, and the counter-loophole clauses they include, etc? I want to see how devils guard against the tricks employed by devils.

Can't think of anything offhand, but then I would expect that deals between devils are conducted either in Infernal or in some language that doesn't allow shenanigans as easily.

Devils are well known for following the letter of the law while perverting the spirit to do various nasty, evil things. are lawful good exemplars going to follow the spirit of an agreement, not just the letter, or will they also go against the spirit of an agreement to achieve good ends? I presume lawful neutral simply follows the letter of the law precisely, with no attempts to twist it, but also no attempts to read beyond the letter.

Lawful good is alo willing to defy the spirit of the law and cling to the letter if they believe it is for a good reason.

back on the topic of dragons. afroakuma, how much can you tell me about the accomplishments of Io?

"Accomplishments" is a weird term to use there. Read up on Io on Wikipedia, as usual, and come back with specific questions.

[Somensjev]

so, if i have this right, Io existed, alone in the "first void", then shed blood in the shadow void, which created the potential for other things to come into being?

so, if this little tidbit is correct, does that mean Io has always existed, or did the first void only exist before the current multiverse?

apparently the shadow void was/is the multiverse, and the first void was/is the secret domain of pre-creation?

at the moment i'm just asking to make sure this is right, and to find out if there's any alternate stories

[afroakuma]

so, if i have this right, Io existed, alone in the "first void", then shed blood in the shadow void, which created the potential for other things to come into being?

That sounds like lies.

at the moment i'm just asking to make sure this is right, and to find out if there's any alternate stories

Pretty sure that's all lies.

[Somensjev]

That sounds like lies.



Pretty sure that's all lies.

quite possibly is all lies, i found it here i might have abridged it too much, or something, but that was what it basically said

i'll look at the site you linked me to, and find Io on it, and look at the differences

edit: nope, it's the same site you linked me to, so maybe i misinterpreted it or something, that or it's lying to me?

edit2: wait, it says the priests make a distinction between shadow void, and first void, so maybe that whole bit is what the priests believe?

edit3: look at "myths and legends" on that site, and read the two voids, that's what i was talking about

[afroakuma]

edit2: wait, it says the priests make a distinction between shadow void, and first void, so maybe that whole bit is what the priests believe?

Correct, it;s just part of their mythology. It's all lies.

[Larkas]

Those are exactly what they're labeled like, "myths and legends". Every religion has its creation myths; the draconic religion is no different.

[Somensjev]

Correct, it;s just part of their mythology. It's all lies.

well, now that the lies are out of the way, what really happened, do we know? how much of that myth is actually true, if any

[Coidzor]

Are powers warped/twisted/whathaveyou into believing their mythology over what actually happened as part of the way powers are changed to fit what is believed about them or do they remember the truth of the matter for themselves, in so far as they experienced it anyway?

[afroakuma]

well, now that the lies are out of the way, what really happened, do we know? how much of that myth is actually true, if any

The gods have nothing to do with creating from the void; not in a macrocosmic sense. Individual crystal spheres, that's the ticket.

Are powers warped/twisted/whathaveyou into believing their mythology over what actually happened as part of the way powers are changed to fit what is believed about them or do they remember the truth of the matter for themselves, in so far as they experienced it anyway?

Their creation myths may involve the shaping of a particular crystal sphere. Gods are aware of what they didn't do. Unless they're Cyric.

[Rob Roy]

Deities (Overdeities, at the very least) can make crystal spheres wholecloth, correct?

[123456789blaaa]

So what?

This is kind of reminding me of the Orcus-sons thing. I apologize (again) if it seemed like that. I was not attempting to challenge you, the first question I asked on the topic was a more general question. It was only after that I found that webpage and wanted to see if it was correct.

Anyways, I suppose my question is if Ghaunadaur dislikes allies so much, why was he allies with those oozes? Did he only dislike allies at first but then started really hating allies after they died and after Lolth? Was it a necessity?

Now see, I read that as it being a composite of six entities, not a divine potluck.

Ah I see. I suppose I interpreted that way because I think it's more interesting. The Xammux on its own isn't a very interesting deity IMO. Plus I dislike even partial redundancy.

Lolth plays up all the spideriness - poison, webs, (corrupt) fecundity, her own twisted spiderlike minions, the "black widow" concept magnified to a cultural level - but most sentient spiderbeings have no real link to her; ettercaps, araneas, phase spiders, retrievers, bebiliths, none are her creatures, though some rare few still serve her. When you get right down to it she's about division, ceaseless plotting ("weaving"), corruption and treachery ("poison"). She wears the spider tropes, but what's she actually goddess of? Drow. The spider is her form, her herald and her symbol, but she mainly uses it to horrify. Do you see what I'm getting at?
<snip>

Well...what you seem to be saying (to me) is that Lolth is more about the symbolic aspects of spiders while Obox-ob is more about the physical aspects.

I suppose it goes both ways then? Lolth uses the spider as a symbol to horrify but the revulsion caused by vermin is also very physical...

Yeah I'm probably off here.

Some of them could be saved by other deities capable of emulating the required parameters, to some extent - Paladine, Eldath or Ehlonna, for instance - but they would still change. In the case of a race like the elves or the orcs, they have other racial deities who would be able to protect components of the race. Nonetheless, it would cause a great fracturing, a loss of collective identity, and very likely an opportunity for that race's foes to commit genocide. Shattered, divided and reduced to shades of what they once were, the race would lose the very heart of its essence.

Now, for a race with only the one god, if it's actually a racial deity rather than merely a patron... oh that's a horrific thing indeed.

Why is this? Is the power of the god intrinsically tied with the race or is the impact more "physical" (not sure how else to phrase it...). I mean with the loss of clerical power and a single guiding direction etc?

<snip>
No.
<snip>

Could a god even theoretically become the god of demons? Is that even possible?

[afroakuma]

Deities (Overdeities, at the very least) can make crystal spheres wholecloth, correct?

Overdeities, yes.

Anyways, I suppose my question is if Ghaunadaur dislikes allies so much, why was he allies with those oozes? Did he only dislike allies at first but then started really hating allies after they died and after Lolth? Was it a necessity?

Similar interests, no rubbing shoulders necessary, patsies to promote his own agenda. Not necessary, merely available, convenient and requiring little thought. And to head off the obvious future questions, no, under no circumstances would he be interested in allying with another power ever again, even were those same conditions to be met, excepting Haask, who barely counts. Why? Because WotC specifically said so.

Why is this? Is the power of the god intrinsically tied with the race or is the impact more "physical" (not sure how else to phrase it...). I mean with the loss of clerical power and a single guiding direction etc?

A true racial deity embodies the essence of his or her race. What it means to be an elf/orc/gnome/what have you would die with them.

Could a god even theoretically become the god of demons? Is that even possible?

No.