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    DracoDei's Avatar

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    Default (3.5) (Weapon Enhancements) (Metamagic) I.F.F. prevents Regrets (P.E.A.C.H.)

    Weapon Enhancements
    Discerning, Lesser
    This weapon must deal aligned damage, such as being a Holy Avenger, or having the Holy, Unholy, Axiomatic, or Anarchic property. Select one such alignment. The weapon does no harm to creatures of that alignment* or their equipment (unless the item struck has an alignment opposite of the one that this enchantment is attuned to).

    As normal. ammunition using weapons with this enchantment bestow the effect on their ammunition.

    *For instance a Holy, Discerning (Lesser)[Good] weapon can not harm GOOD creatures (not evil ones, that would just be silly).

    Faint Abjuration; Caster level 7th; Craft Magical Weapons and Armor; Price 5,000 GP

    Discerning, Greater
    As per Discerning, except that instead of being stopped by a creature and/or the equipment of a creature that matches its alignment, the weapon (or ammunition) passes through that creature and/or equipment as if it did not exist. Among other benefits, this negates penalties for shooting into melee, and/or cover bonuses (such as for a hostage held in front of an enemy).
    Faint Abjuration; Caster level 9th; Craft Magical Weapons and Armor; Price 10,000 GP




    I'm not entirely sure if the first version should exist, or if the second is only worth a +1. I suppose I could create "half-pluses..." and make a table and such...
    Made it static costs for now... although I went with larger numbers than suggested, just to be on the safe side.



    Metamagic:
    Discerning Spell
    Benefit
    When you take this feat select one alignment component that you have (Chaos, Evil, Good, or Law). A Discerning Spell does not have any effect on targets with that alignment component, nor on equipment attended by creatures with that alignment component. More specifically, this functions as unbeatable spell-resistance.

    For divine spells, a Discerning Spell uses up a spell slot one level higher than the spellís actual level. Note that this applies even if you take it twice for two different alignments, and then apply it twice to the same spell. In other words the increase overlaps, it doesn't stack.

    For arcane spells, a Discerning Spell instead takes up a spell slot two levels higher than the spell's actual level. Once again, it does not stack.
    Special
    You make take this feat twice if you are Chaotic Evil, Chaotic Good, Lawful Evil, or Lawful Good. Each instance applies to a different alignment.




    I forget what level modifier "Sculpt Spell" is, and 2 or 3 seemed right. I was originally going to have it ONLY work on Divine Spells (which tend to be less indiscriminately AoEish, and is the sort of spellcasting more associated with alignments). Combining these two thoughts, I split the difference and made it +2 for divine and +3 for arcane. Later I dropped it down to +1/+2 based on responses to this thread, although the poster was suggesting a straight +1. I felt the thematics were worth it.


    EDIT: Should the weapon enhancements require the feat to create? Probably not...

    EDIT^2: Fixed the feat so you can't make Walls Of Stone that your allies can walk through.
    Last edited by DracoDei; 2018-10-30 at 12:47 PM.
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    Default Re: (3.5) (Weapon Enhancements) (Metamagic) I.F.F. prevents Regrets (P.E.A.C.H.)

    Bumping for feedback.
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    Default Re: (3.5) (Weapon Enhancements) (Metamagic) I.F.F. prevents Regrets (P.E.A.C.H.)

    This is confusing.
    Discerning Spell is a metamagic, yet you apply it to items like it was a magical effect in and on itself.

    Seems like you need to get things sorted out, because AFAIK there are no rules in 3.5e that address what you did here.

    It's not a power issue but rather a definition issue.

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    Default Re: (3.5) (Weapon Enhancements) (Metamagic) I.F.F. prevents Regrets (P.E.A.C.H.)

    Quote Originally Posted by nonsi View Post
    This is confusing.
    Discerning Spell is a metamagic, yet you apply it to items like it was a magical effect in and on itself.

    Seems like you need to get things sorted out, because AFAIK there are no rules in 3.5e that address what you did here.

    It's not a power issue but rather a definition issue.
    It looks like it works fine to me. There's a weapon quality called Discerning Lesser and Greater followed by a separate metamagic feat that applies to spells called Discerning Spell.

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    Default Re: (3.5) (Weapon Enhancements) (Metamagic) I.F.F. prevents Regrets (P.E.A.C.H.)

    Hey DracoDei

    This is the sort of thing that alignment is great for. You've made weapons that can't be used against the wielder (usually), that's awesome! I was gonna say tha Greater Discerning is a little too situational, but then I realized it's only a +2, so it's probably fine as-is. I'd definitely take one of these properties on a weapon.

    For Discerning Spell, does it only work on spells that have an alignment, like Protection from Evil, etc? I like the ability to apply it to two alignments, but what happens if your alignment changes?

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    Default Re: (3.5) (Weapon Enhancements) (Metamagic) I.F.F. prevents Regrets (P.E.A.C.H.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Steward View Post
    It looks like it works fine to me. There's a weapon quality called Discerning Lesser and Greater followed by a separate metamagic feat that applies to spells called Discerning Spell.
    Correct.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lappy9001 View Post
    Hey DracoDei

    This is the sort of thing that alignment is great for. You've made weapons that can't be used against the wielder (usually), that's awesome! I was gonna say tha Greater Discerning is a little too situational, but then I realized it's only a +2, so it's probably fine as-is. I'd definitely take one of these properties on a weapon.
    Good to know. The extra +1 for the Greater seems really sitatuational to me, but maybe it varies by campaign? I think the best use would be for shooting into melee when you don't have Precise Shot.


    Clarification: Originally I was wondering fo Greater should be +1 and Lesser +0.5
    Quote Originally Posted by Lappy9001 View Post
    For Discerning Spell, does it only work on spells that have an alignment, like Protection from Evil, etc?
    Nope, works on any spell.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lappy9001 View Post
    I like the ability to apply it to two alignments, but what happens if your alignment changes?
    Then you have a wasted feat, unless your GM allows retraining or you change back to that alignment.
    Last edited by DracoDei; 2013-09-28 at 04:03 AM.
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    Default Re: (3.5) (Weapon Enhancements) (Metamagic) I.F.F. prevents Regrets (P.E.A.C.H.)

    Quote Originally Posted by DracoDei View Post
    Weapon Enhancements
    Discerning, Lesser
    This weapon must deal aligned damage, such as being a Holy Avenger, or having the Holy, Unholy, Axiomatic, or Anarchic property. Select one such alignment. The weapon does no harm to creatures of that alignment* or their equipment (unless the item struck has an alignment opposite of the one that this enchantment is attuned to).

    As normal. ammunition using weapons with this enchantment bestow the effect on their ammunition.

    *For instance a Holy, Discerning (Lesser)[Good] weapon can not harm GOOD creatures (not evil ones, that would just be silly).
    Faint Abjuration; Caster level 7th; Craft Magical Weapons and Armor; Price +1 enhancement bonus

    Discerning, Greater
    As per Discerning, except that instead of being stopped by a creature and/or the equipment of a creature that matches its alignment, the weapon (or ammunition) passes through that creature and/or equipment as if it did not exist. Among other benefits, this negates penalties for shooting into melee, and/or cover bonuses (such as for a hostage held in front of an enemy).
    Faint Abjuration; Caster level 9th; Craft Magical Weapons and Armor; Price +2 enhancement bonus
    Personally, I'm not sure if being unable to use a weapon on an alignment would merit the cost of a weapon special ability, as it will make any future additions more costly as well. Instead, why not add a raw GP cost to the enchantments?

    Just perusing the Magic Item Compendium, I can find several enchantments that don't necessarily increase your killing power, and as such don't increase the total enhancement rating of the weapon. Examples are Aquatic [2,000 GP], Channeling [2,000 GP], and Hideaway [2,000 GP]. Considering how minor the abilities are, why not make the Lesser version cost a flat 2,000 GP and allow them to upgrade it to the Greater version for an additional 5,000 GP?


    Quote Originally Posted by DracoDei View Post
    Metamagic:
    Discerning Spell
    Benefit
    When you select this metamagic, select one alignment component that you have (Chaos, Evil, Good, or Law). A Discerning Spell does not have any effect on targets with that alignment component, nor on equipment attended by creatures with that alignment component. More specifically, this functions as unbeatable spell-resistance.

    For divine spells, a Discerning Spell uses up a spell slot two levels higher than the spellís actual level for each alignment it does not effect (in other words, if you take it twice, and apply it twice, then it takes up a slot four levels higher).

    For arcane spells, a Discerning Spell instead takes up a spell slot three levels higher than the spell's actual level for each alignment it does not effect.
    Special
    You make take this feat twice if you are Chaotic Evil, Chaotic Good, Lawful Evil, or Lawful Good. Each instance applies to a different alignment.
    The cost for this is far too high when compared to other metamagics of its type. In the Book of Exalted Deeds we have Purify Spell, which is a +1 to ignore good creatures, do half damage to neutral, and increase the damage against evil creatures by one step (d6 -> d8, etc). Sculpt spell is also a +1, but it doesn't match your intent quite as closely. I'd suggest bumping this down to +1, since you ignore one alignment (similar to Purify Spell), but you don't receive the potential boost against the opposing alignment.
    Last edited by Fako; 2013-09-28 at 07:11 AM.
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    Default Re: (3.5) (Weapon Enhancements) (Metamagic) I.F.F. prevents Regrets (P.E.A.C.H.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Fako View Post
    Personally, I'm not sure if being unable to use a weapon on an alignment would merit the cost of a weapon special ability, as it will make any future additions more costly as well. Instead, why not add a raw GP cost to the enchantments?

    Just perusing the Magic Item Compendium, I can find several enchantments that don't necessarily increase your killing power, and as such don't increase the total enhancement rating of the weapon. Examples are Aquatic [2,000 GP], Channeling [2,000 GP], and Hideaway [2,000 GP]. Considering how minor the abilities are, why not make the Lesser version cost a flat 2,000 GP and allow them to upgrade it to the Greater version for an additional 5,000 GP?
    I'm not sure about the 2k/5k split, but I think static numbers could be the way to go here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fako View Post
    The cost for this is far too high when compared to other metamagics of its type. In the Book of Exalted Deeds we have Purify Spell, which is a +1 to ignore good creatures, do half damage to neutral, and increase the damage against evil creatures by one step (d6 -> d8, etc). Sculpt spell is also a +1, but it doesn't match your intent quite as closely. I'd suggest bumping this down to +1, since you ignore one alignment (similar to Purify Spell), but you don't receive the potential boost against the opposing alignment.
    Is Purify Spell considered a balanced feat?

    If so, then you are correct and I should drop it down to +1... or maybe +0/+1.
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    Default Re: (3.5) (Weapon Enhancements) (Metamagic) I.F.F. prevents Regrets (P.E.A.C.H.)

    Quote Originally Posted by DracoDei View Post
    Is Purify Spell considered a balanced feat?

    If so, then you are correct and I should drop it down to +1... or maybe +0/+1.
    I don't hear about it much and I don't think its too unbalanced. I wouldn't suggest dropping discerning spell to 0 though. It would probably be good at +1 though.
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    Default Re: (3.5) (Weapon Enhancements) (Metamagic) I.F.F. prevents Regrets (P.E.A.C.H.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Silva Stormrage View Post
    I don't hear about it much and I don't think its too unbalanced. I wouldn't suggest dropping discerning spell to 0 though. It would probably be good at +1 though.
    I made it +1/+2 for now.
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    Default Re: (3.5) (Weapon Enhancements) (Metamagic) I.F.F. prevents Regrets (P.E.A.C.H.)

    Made the weapon enchantments static costs, although I went with 5k/10k, just to be on the safe side. You do require a +3 equivalent weapon to use them in the first place (+1 enhancement, +2 for holy/unholy/axiomatic/anarchic), so the incrimental cost can be a bit higher.
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    Default Re: (3.5) (Weapon Enhancements) (Metamagic) I.F.F. prevents Regrets (P.E.A.C.H.)

    The weapon enhancements should be static and low. That's a very low-level effect with almost no benefit (when am I going to stab my buddy with a sword?). The second benefit is nice, but not worth +2.

    The spell should be bumped down to a +1. I'm not a fan of it either way because it encourages a radical alignment-homogenous party, and that seems bad for player agency (you should play lawful good so I can take this one feat!).

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    Default Re: (3.5) (Weapon Enhancements) (Metamagic) I.F.F. prevents Regrets (P.E.A.C.H.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Just to Browse View Post
    The weapon enhancements should be static and low. That's a very low-level effect with almost no benefit (when am I going to stab my buddy with a sword?). The second benefit is nice, but not worth +2.
    Thus why I dropped it to a static cost already. Is 5k/10k low enough?

    Also, it can help a lot when
    Quote Originally Posted by Just to Browse View Post
    The spell should be bumped down to a +1.
    It is +1... for divine casters. I stand by the idea that it should work differently for divine vs arcane. Would you suggest +0/+1?

    Quote Originally Posted by Just to Browse View Post
    I'm not a fan of it either way because it encourages a radical alignment-homogenous party, and that seems bad for player agency (you should play lawful good so I can take this one feat!).
    You mis-read. Just an all lawful OR all good party would do the trick. Actually, if they take the feat twice, then the party members could be any combination of two alignments that are at 90 degrees to eachother... now that I think of it, I should make the +X's not stack for that... it will almost never come up, but it is the sort of fine detail that I like to put in.
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    Default Re: (3.5) (Weapon Enhancements) (Metamagic) I.F.F. prevents Regrets (P.E.A.C.H.)

    I strongly disagree that arcane/divine should be different. If it is balanced for a certain level of play, then it should be at that level. If you really want to make warmages cry, then go ahead and keep the 1-level disparity but make it +0/+1.

    I also only recently noticed that this is selected for specific alignments. That really makes me sad because it makes the feat inflexible, and encourages minmaxing with alignment.

    If your goal is to make a spell that ignores your allies without changing its shape, then just make a spell that ignores people you target. It would be totally useful and awesome and wouldn't muck with alignment-optimization or force people to only exclude specific kinds of allies.

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    Default Re: (3.5) (Weapon Enhancements) (Metamagic) I.F.F. prevents Regrets (P.E.A.C.H.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Just to Browse View Post
    I strongly disagree that arcane/divine should be different. If it is balanced for a certain level of play, then it should be at that level. If you really want to make warmages cry, then go ahead and keep the 1-level disparity but make it +0/+1.
    Some advised against it. Neither of position was really backed up, so... I'm going to be careful and keep it where it is.
    Quote Originally Posted by Just to Browse View Post
    I also only recently noticed that this is selected for specific alignments. That really makes me sad because it makes the feat inflexible, and encourages minmaxing with alignment.

    If your goal is to make a spell that ignores your allies without changing its shape, then just make a spell that ignores people you target. It would be totally useful and awesome and wouldn't muck with alignment-optimization or force people to only exclude specific kinds of allies.
    Unfortunately, that was not my goal. My goal was specifically to have it be alignment based. I could have it be "any one alignment you have" MAYBE, but then... well, that might make it actually worth it with the current +1/+2?
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