OOTS #914 - The Discussion Thread

[veti]

1) Laurin destroys Nale's body, making nearly (but not completely) impossible to bring him back.

Also, she does it without Tarquin telling her to. That establishes her (for the first time) as an autonomous agent capable of acting on her own. Not that we doubted it, but it's important we should see it at some point before it becomes plot-critical.

3) To have Elan hammer home for us a point that I think Rich is trying to make: stop thinking of Nale (or Therkla, or Redcloak, or V) as a plot element, think of them as characters who deserve to be treated as (fictional) people.

Hallelujah. If I never see another reference to TVTropes on this board, I'll be a much happier reader.

[Anarion]

This has been a great couple of comics. Tarquin's nonchalance is amazing, as is his continued attempts to relate to Elan. High point of this one is his comment to Haley, which is just a wee bit defensive. Also, some hints of him being just a little too self-centered, when he refers to the "obvious narrative arc between himself and Elan," which is not obvious at all.

I realize that this probably won't happen, but one thing I think Tarquin could do if he really wanted to be a d**k (while at the same time relentlessly hammering his point home) is wait till Laurin is gone, then privately give the bloody dagger to Elan - in front of the rest of the party - saying "Hey, if you desperately want Nale alive so much, this blood ought to let you resurrect him. Of course, you realize that he'll just try to kill you and all your friends again. If you raise him and he ends up slaughtering your lovely girlfriend, just remember that it's on YOU, not me."

I think that would be an awesome piece of psychological jiujitsu (while at the same time forcing Elan to "grow up" and accept that sometimes you need to make difficult choices). There's no way Elan will ever resurrect Nale (he might WANT to, but Haley and the rest of the Order will quickly talk him out of it - and there's no way Durkula would ever agree) but at the same time making the offer would make Tarquin appear reasonable and forces Elan to accept that Nale belongs dead. After all, it's hard to whine about your twin brother being dead when you have the means to bring him back but aren't doing it. >:-)

I think this would require a level of caring that Tarquin doesn't seem to possess. Look at how he responds to Elan at the end "well then, you're in the minority..." That's not somebody who's thinking about how to twist this to best advantage, and it doesn't show any interest in creating further conflict related to Nale. Tarquin's done and he wants to encourage the story between Elan and himself, not have the name "Nale" play any further role in this story, imo.

Of course, Sabine might have a different opinion.

[Math_Mage]

**** just got real.

Just? Just?

[Kish]

"Hell hath no fury like a woman whose lover has been murdered" is a less sexist proverb anyway.

[Kazemi]

I like the blood oozing out of the TV. That's a nice touch. Also, I'm sure I'm not the only one who forgot Sabine was watching this.

I just started rereading OotS and I must say, it has progressed IMMENSELY in terms of plot and character development. This is a wonderful story.

[Grey Watcher]

Oh. Tarquin. You could really be a true, TVTropes Magnificent Bastard if you'd only get out of the Wrong Genre Savvy rut of thinking you're the main villain here.

I'm betting Sabine offs him before the current book is over.

[Kish]

I hope you're right.

[Voidfaith]

This strip made me feel that Elan is the true foil of evil in the OoTS universe. Being able to feel sorry for a hatefull enemy, feeling empathy and putting himself in his shoes... No easy feat.

Tarquin has a serious blind spot in relation of how much people care for each other. Proof: This strip + 785 + 759 + 756 + a lot of other stuff.

Hey, maybe it won't be Elan at all. But Sabine, Gannji, Enor, Thog and the female Captain, or maybe even completely unrelated guys, who put an end to his empire. Having his precious story thwarted by non-heroes would be great.

Edit: I liked Malack, but kudos for Nale destroying the future empire of soylent red even if it was for much less than heroic reasons as his last act. I will miss you both hatefull bastards

[rafaruggi]

Oh. Tarquin. You could really be a true, TVTropes Magnificent Bastard if you'd only get out of the Wrong Genre Savvy rut of thinking you're the main villain here.

I'm betting Sabine offs him before the current book is over.

I think Sabine is not even close (not even a tiny bit) to being powerful enough to fight Tarquin. And the book is really almost over.

Anyway, just wanted to say: I've been up for 30 hours now, and studying for the last 8. This really just made my day <3.

[hamishspence]

Oh. Tarquin. You could really be a true, TVTropes Magnificent Bastard if you'd only get out of the Wrong Genre Savvy rut of thinking you're the main villain here.

Smug Snake seems to be the term favoured for characters of that general type- Kubota, for example.

[Thousandface]

Hooooo boy. When even Elan thinks someone's taking the whole "it's a plot element" thing too far, well, we know things have gotten serious. Sabine's reaction was priceless. Exactly what I thought might happen...

[rafaruggi]

This strip made me feel that Elan is the true foil of evil in the OoTS universe. Being able to feel sorry for a hatefull enemy, feeling empathy and putting himself in his shoes... No easy feat.

Tarquin has a serious blind spot in relation of how much people care for each other. Proof: This strip + 785 + 759 + 756 + a lot of other stuff.

Hey, maybe it won't be Elan at all. But Sabine, Gannji, Enor, Thog and the female Captain, or maybe even completely unrelated guys, who put an end to his empire. Having his precious story thwarted by non-heroes would be great.

Maybe his empire won't end?

Edit: Also, not exactly blood on the tv, but maybe... plasma?

*ba dum tss*

[Voidfaith]

Maybe his empire won't end?

Maybe. The empire can survive, but it is his concept of story that must crushed to trully defeat him.

[Jay R]

I think Sabine is not even close (not even a tiny bit) to being powerful enough to fight Tarquin.

I agree. But so what? Nale is not even close to being powerful enough to fight Malack, either. By not fighting him directly, but exploiting a weakness at the exact right time instead, he successfully killed him.

[And Sabine has three allies in the same room with her that had plans for the Linear Guild.]

[sabelo2000]

(I feel like I was the only one who didn't get the blood-plasma thing till people pointed it out. Boy do I feel dense :P lol)

No, I missed it too, I thought Sabine had tossed Quarr or somebody through a window and that was HIS blood dripping down. But now that it's been pointed out to me, yes the blood plasma screen is an awesome visual.

[Aquillion]

So much for all the tarquin fanboys arguing he had done a hard decision etc...

Tarquin felt nothing at killing his son. Period.

I wouldn't necessarily say that this proves that. He's very good at controlling his emotions; he seems like the sort of guy who could feel something, but consciously choose to harden his heart and portray it as no big deal.

There's a difference between being evil and being a soulless robot. I think he felt something, even if it was largely regret and disappointment that it ended this way.

I agree. But so what? Nale is not even close to being powerful enough to fight Malack, either. By not fighting him directly, but exploiting a weakness at the exact right time instead, he successfully killed him.

[And Sabine has three allies in the same room with her that had plans for the Linear Guild.]

I doubt the fiends are likely to care about mindless revenge. Attacking Tarquin doesn't benefit them. (Although she might be able to persuade them if she understands their goals enough to make an argument that doing something that hurts him would be to their benefit.)

V, on the other hand, might be persuadable.

[ThePhantasm]

Oh. Tarquin. You could really be a true, TVTropes Magnificent Bastard if you'd only get out of the Wrong Genre Savvy rut of thinking you're the main villain here.

I'm betting Sabine offs him before the current book is over.

I hope you're right.

No way that will happen, IMO... Elan's mysterious plan (mentioned to Roy and Durkon) still has to take effect.

[Aquillion]

No way that will happen, IMO... Elan's mysterious plan (mentioned to Roy and Durkon) still has to take effect.

What I could see happening is that Elan's mysterious plan ruins him or leaves him helpless somehow, but Elan leaves him alive because he's not a murderer -- and then Sabine kills him.

I don't honestly see Tarquin surviving the story, and that would eliminate him without getting blood on Elan's hands.

[Grey Watcher]

Smug Snake seems to be the term favoured for characters of that general type- Kubota, for example.

Yeah, I know. I just felt like I was already dropping too many TVT names.

I think Sabine is not even close (not even a tiny bit) to being powerful enough to fight Tarquin. And the book is really almost over.

...

Well, given that Sabine has a level draining kiss and the same skin-tone as Amun-Zora, I can see where she might level the playing field. And, with about 20 hours left on that banishment to think about it, I'm sure she can come up with something.

Plus, I'm starting to feel like Tarquin (to use his own logic), is running out of reasons, narratively, to exist.

1) Elan's had character growth
2) Nale's been removed from play
3) He complicated the "explore the pyramid" part of the current book
4) He brought Malack on stage so he could set Durkon's vampire sub-plot in motion

It seems like it'd be appropriate if he really was a villain confined to this book, much like Miko was confined to the two books that center around Azure City.

[Yendor]

Hey, maybe it won't be Elan at all. But Sabine, Gannji, Enor, Thog and the female Captain, or maybe even completely unrelated guys, who put an end to his empire. Having his precious story thwarted by non-heroes would be great.

Oh, that would be awesome. Nale gave Amon-Zora his card. I can just see her trying to contact the Linear Guild to tell them she's found a couple of guys quite happy to help get revenge on Tarquin...

[Apricot]

Oh. Tarquin. You could really be a true, TVTropes Magnificent Bastard if you'd only get out of the Wrong Genre Savvy rut of thinking you're the main villain here.

I'm betting Sabine offs him before the current book is over.

I'll meet your bet. Look at the comic's name. Aside from the two obvious meanings, it can also be taken to indicate that this is the last death in this otherwise blood-splattered book. And I'd agree with that choice: too many more major deaths, and they're going to start overshadowing the significance of the deaths that have already occurred.

[Astroturtle]

Well, now I'm sad. I was starting to like Nale, as Tarquin made it clear that he's exactly why Nale is such a jerk.

I do hope Nale gets raised. Its certainly possible, and it could be useful for Elan and Tarquin's character growth. Maybe even Haley's.

And I hope Xykon gets a chance to explain his Grand Unified Theory of Sledgehammers all over Tarquin's face.

[halfeye]

but in this case, "psychopath not sociopath" seems pretty much spot-on for Tarquin.

There's a difference? <ex psychology student here, back when I was studying, "psychopath" was the word that was dropped from the professional vocabulary because of the Hitchcock movie, "sociopath" was what replaced it>

[hamishspence]

Yeah, I know. I just felt like I was already dropping too many TVT names.

While I enjoy the site- I do agree that the terms are best used sparingly in forum conversation.

[Almaseti]

No way that will happen, IMO... Elan's mysterious plan (mentioned to Roy and Durkon) still has to take effect.

Maybe Elan's plan will provide Sabine the opportunity she needs to off Tarquin.

I really really hope that whatever Elan has planned is going to be really humiliating for Tarquin.

[Quantum Glass]

"I can't think of anybody else who...didn't at least entertain the idea."

...I honestly think Tarquin is really shaken up about killing Nale, and just hiding it. Otherwise, he'd never make the mistake of assuming what he said in the above quote, let alone saying it out loud.

[Mr. Scaly]

I have to admire just how many views in the forums are summarised in this one strip. I'm almost positive that the "never anything more than a B list recurring villain that, frankly, Elan has grown out of" was a direct quote even. :3

And the last panel made me laugh ^^

[sabelo2000]

In the first panel, Elan notes that "his throat is exposed".

But when Malack vamped Durkon (and tried to vamp Belkar), it was shown that the characters don't actually HAVE throats, because Malack had to bite into the head instead.

Which, of course, is completely useless pedantry. But someone was going to bring it up, so it might as well be me this time.

Actually I had thought the marks to the side of the "head" was a lampshade on the deliberately simple artwork, so it's assumed that the "neck" was sort of a part of the stick-figure head-bubble. Sort of a cephalothorax, if you will.

[Porthos]

"I can't think of anybody else who...didn't at least entertain the idea."

...I honestly think Tarquin is really shaken up about killing Nale, and just hiding it. Otherwise, he'd never make the mistake of assuming what he said in the above quote, let alone saying it out loud.

He makes mistakes like that all the time though. Elan being the leader of the gang. Not realizing what would happen when Malack and Nale were left alone with each other. Not realizing just what would happen when he raised Nale the way he did. Not seeing the connection between Nale and Sabine. Amongst others.

People like to think that Tarquin has an unshakable grasp on narrative mechanics. But he really doesn't.

And that could prove to be his downfall. Well, that and treating people like *****.

[Aurini]

I'm really interested to see which direction the Giant's going to go with Sabine.

During the death Tsukiko, Redcloak declared that undead in the OOtS Universe are *not* true personalities - not intelligent undead, not even PC-Level holding undead like Xykon. They're bits of bone and flesh and mind held together by dark magics.

While this could be viewed as merely his opinion, a number of events in-universe support this theory; that even undead in possession of a soul (Xykon, Malack) have torn that soul to tatters. First, the demonstration of the wights eating Tsukiko their "mommy"; second, the comments that since undeath Xykon seems to find pleasure in nothing but killing, and even that pleasure is a dry and dusty one.

So what are we to think about demons? Are they true persons or only principalities wrapped in a cloak of personality?

I've always thought that succubi were an excellent metaphor for the sort of women that celebrities have to deal with; they show up, offering you everything, when you're on top of the world, but the day you have a moment of bad-luck they disappear. They're empty voids, draining life-force from those who are creators in the world, without ever providing anything (aside from their physical bodies) in return.

Can a succubus in the OOtS Universe actually experience love? Or is what we're seeing here merely the scraps of a propped-up ego applied to a chaotic-evil principality, going through the motions of loving, but truly nothing but an intelligent automaton of destruction?

The same question applies to Celia, obviously.

It would be interesting to see the remnants of Nale's soul (though I'm not sure if the Giant wants to go so dark); I could envision Sabine encountering him being alternatively gaslit/tortured as he's slowly being transformed into a daemon (assuming he's NE) - a self-hating nihilist who seeks to tear down all of existence - and pass by him without blinking an eye. The Nale she loved was the active one, a font of dark energy in the material plane; the tortured pieces of what was once his soul wouldn't register to a principality such as herself. Her "intelligence" would merely be using her "love" as a logical catalyst to create further destruction in the material plane.

(This is why I love the Giant's writing, incidentally; it allows endless reflection upon the moral issues it presents.)