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    Default Catfall and Tripping

    How does the psionic power catfall interact with trip attempts?

    It reads to me like catfall would make you immune to being tripped, since if you're tripped, you'll fall (at least a foot or two) and then catfall kicks in, and you land on your feet.
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    Default Re: Catfall and Tripping

    That's a RAW abuse. Fortunately, like many RAW abuses, it has its counter built in by way of more stupid RAW: tripping does not, in fact, cause you to fall.

    Of course, I would houserule both of those at the same time, but if you're gonna try crazy munchkin stuff, be prepared for the obvious answers.
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    Default Re: Catfall and Tripping

    If a psion/wilder/psy warr took that power, out of his few known ones, and is prepared to burn his precious PP and only slightly less precious swift/immediate actions to counter a trip attempt, I'd be almost inclined to let him.
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    Default Re: Catfall and Tripping

    Quote Originally Posted by Greenish View Post
    If a psion/wilder/psy warr took that power, out of his few known ones, and is prepared to burn his precious PP and only slightly less precious swift/immediate actions to counter a trip attempt, I'd be almost inclined to let him.
    Ditto. By conversational language, you do fall when tripped (assuming you're not a naga or something). Catfall isn't very useful overall, so having it save you from trips will also save you from having a nigh-useless power.

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    Default Re: Catfall and Tripping

    Quote Originally Posted by Greenish View Post
    If a psion/wilder/psy warr took that power, out of his few known ones, and is prepared to burn his precious PP and only slightly less precious swift/immediate actions to counter a trip attempt, I'd be almost inclined to let him.
    I did think of the pp after posting; especially considering the duration, and the fact it ends on use, I might downgrade this to "weird cheese" instead of "horrid abuse".

    Still, kind of stupid.
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    Default Re: Catfall and Tripping

    Quote Originally Posted by TuggyNE View Post
    Still, kind of stupid.
    Yes, in the sense that it's overly literalistic and almost certainly against the RAI.

    But on the other hand, using your mind powers to do a backflip and land on your feet instead of being tripped is pretty cool.
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    Default Re: Catfall and Tripping

    Quote Originally Posted by TuggyNE View Post
    I did think of the pp after posting; especially considering the duration, and the fact it ends on use, I might downgrade this to "weird cheese" instead of "horrid abuse".

    Still, kind of stupid.
    It's called a "kip up."

    [edit] Oh, and if you're tripped as a flier, Catfall means that the trip attempt results in a loss of altitude, but that's about it.
    Last edited by Rubik; 2013-09-03 at 01:06 AM.

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    Default Re: Catfall and Tripping

    Quote Originally Posted by TuggyNE View Post
    That's a RAW abuse.
    Yeah, I know.

    Quote Originally Posted by TuggyNE View Post
    Fortunately, like many RAW abuses, it has its counter built in by way of more stupid RAW: tripping does not, in fact, cause you to fall.
    Does RAW actually say anywhere that tripping does not cause you to fall? Because I don't remember ever seeing such a rule. Just because the rules don't specifically say that tripping makes you fall, doesn't mean that you don't fall when tripped.
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    Default Re: Catfall and Tripping

    Quote Originally Posted by TuggyNE View Post
    I did think of the pp after posting; especially considering the duration, and the fact it ends on use, I might downgrade this to "weird cheese" instead of "horrid abuse".

    Still, kind of stupid.
    Yeah, it's kind of stupid, I just asked out of curiosity.

    Still, it would make catfall slightly less useless (and would make the boots of catfall for like 1000 gold not a terrible choice).
    Last edited by molten_dragon; 2013-09-03 at 04:35 PM.
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    Default Re: Catfall and Tripping

    Given how situational Catfall is - a power that consumes a powers-known slot on everybody (except the erudite) who learns it, and is less good under standard assumptions than Feather Fall (who at least Wizards can pick up without feeling like they've blown a permanent resource) - having it usable for anti-tripping is not a big deal, in my opinion. Good? Yes. But its action and pp cost as well as the opportunity cost of learning it are enough that it doesn't seem broken.

    It even makes a certain amount of IC sense on top of being within at least the shady borders of the RAW. The power makes you re-orient and land "on your feet," which is rather decidedly not prone by any definition we usually use. And I believe tripping renders you prone. So you get tripped, you start to fall, you re-orient, and land on your feet (perhaps in a slight crouch compared to before).

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    Default Re: Catfall and Tripping

    Quote Originally Posted by molten_dragon View Post
    Does RAW actually say anywhere that tripping does not cause you to fall? Because I don't remember ever seeing such a rule. Just because the rules don't specifically say that tripping makes you fall, doesn't mean that you don't fall when tripped.
    Well, the rules also don't say that you don't fall when you Tumble, or sit down, or cast Alter Self. They don't say anything about you not falling when you retrieve a spell component, or when you speak. Along the same line of reasoning, the rules make no mention at all about you not receiving a free Wish every time you say "Abracadabra!"

    D&D is a game which says what happens when you take specific actions. It isn't structured to list all the things which don't happen.

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    Default Re: Catfall and Tripping

    Quote Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
    Well, the rules also don't say that you don't fall when you Tumble, or sit down, or cast Alter Self. They don't say anything about you not falling when you retrieve a spell component, or when you speak. Along the same line of reasoning, the rules make no mention at all about you not receiving a free Wish every time you say "Abracadabra!"

    D&D is a game which says what happens when you take specific actions. It isn't structured to list all the things which don't happen.
    I don't know about you, but every time I've actually been successfully tripped, I've fallen. Usually on my knees or my face, prone. Just like the rules say happens.

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    Default Re: Catfall and Tripping

    Quote Originally Posted by Rubik View Post
    I don't know about you, but every time I've actually been successfully tripped, I've fallen. Usually on my knees or my face, prone. Just like the rules say happens.
    Trip

    You can try to trip an opponent as an unarmed melee attack. You can only trip an opponent who is one size category larger than you, the same size, or smaller.

    Making a Trip Attack

    Make an unarmed melee touch attack against your target. This provokes an attack of opportunity from your target as normal for unarmed attacks.

    If your attack succeeds, make a Strength check opposed by the defender’s Dexterity or Strength check (whichever ability score has the higher modifier). A combatant gets a +4 bonus for every size category he is larger than Medium or a -4 penalty for every size category he is smaller than Medium. The defender gets a +4 bonus on his check if he has more than two legs or is otherwise more stable than a normal humanoid. If you win, you trip the defender. If you lose, the defender may immediately react and make a Strength check opposed by your Dexterity or Strength check to try to trip you.

    Avoiding Attacks of Opportunity

    If you have the Improved Trip feat, or if you are tripping with a weapon (see below), you don’t provoke an attack of opportunity for making a trip attack.

    Being Tripped (Prone)

    A tripped character is prone. Standing up is a move action.
    Prone

    The character is on the ground. An attacker who is prone has a -4 penalty on melee attack rolls and cannot use a ranged weapon (except for a crossbow). A defender who is prone gains a +4 bonus to Armor Class against ranged attacks, but takes a -4 penalty to AC against melee attacks.

    Standing up is a move-equivalent action that provokes an attack of opportunity.
    There is no mention of "falling" anywhere in the Trip rules. So, just like the rules say, you get tripped and become prone; you don't fall in the process.

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    Default Re: Catfall and Tripping

    Quote Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
    There is no mention of "falling" anywhere in the Trip rules. So, just like the rules say, you get tripped and become prone; you don't fall in the process.
    Again, every time I've been tripped, I've fallen as a logical consequence, and as mentioned, RAW doesn't say you don't fall. I do believe that the rules say that if the rules don't cover something, you default to the way it works in the real world, do they not?
    Last edited by Rubik; 2013-09-03 at 07:26 PM.

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    Default Re: Catfall and Tripping

    I believe it safe to say - within the RAW and without - that going from "not-prone" to "prone" is pretty clear. If you didn't "fall" between them, fine, but you still land on your feet, not your face, hands, knees, rump, or other assorted non-pedal body parts, thanks to Catfall.

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    Default Re: Catfall and Tripping

    Wait... if I don't fall when I'm tripped yet I do become prone... Am I floating in the air in the square in which I was tripped?

    If yes, well damn, I guess I can levitate...

    If no, then how in the hell did I get on the floor?

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    Default Re: Catfall and Tripping

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    I believe it safe to say - within the RAW and without - that going from "not-prone" to "prone" is pretty clear. If you didn't "fall" between them, fine, but you still land on your feet, not your face, hands, knees, rump, or other assorted non-pedal body parts, thanks to Catfall.
    But if you didn't fall, catfall won't do anything for you.
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    Default Re: Catfall and Tripping

    Quote Originally Posted by TuggyNE View Post
    That's a RAW abuse. Fortunately, like many RAW abuses, it has its counter built in by way of more stupid RAW
    can i sig this?
    Quote Originally Posted by TuggyNE View Post
    That's a RAW abuse. Fortunately, like many RAW abuses, it has its counter built in by way of more stupid RAW: tripping does not, in fact, cause you to fall.

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    Default Re: Catfall and Tripping

    Quote Originally Posted by Deaxsa View Post
    can i sig this?
    I suppose, although I'd prefer if you could include the bit about fixing both of them by common sense as well, since that's (to my mind) really more important.
    Quote Originally Posted by Water_Bear View Post
    That's RAW for you; 100% Rules-Legal, 110% silly.
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    Default Re: Catfall and Tripping

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Scott View Post
    Wait... if I don't fall when I'm tripped yet I do become prone... Am I floating in the air in the square in which I was tripped?

    If yes, well damn, I guess I can levitate...

    If no, then how in the hell did I get on the floor?
    Quote Originally Posted by SRD
    Prone

    The character is on the ground.
    You don't float when you are prone. Also, I agree that due to the wording "A tripped character is prone" rather than "A tripped character falls prone," falling is not part of being tripped and therefore not countered by catfall.

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    Default Re: Catfall and Tripping

    Falling in D&D generally incurs falling damage. Falling prone would enable Catfall, but taking 1d6 damage for being tripped would be a serious downside. You could be tripped unarmed or with a whip — which would normally deal nonlethal damage — but then take lethal damage from those otherwise nondamaging trip attacks!

    No, it's better to become prone without falling.

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    Default Re: Catfall and Tripping

    Note that if you fall less than 10 feet then you don't take damage, meaning that falling to the ground when tripped (which is totally what happens) doesn't deal damage unless you actually do fall a significant distance.

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    Default Re: Catfall and Tripping

    Quote Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
    Well, the rules also don't say that you don't fall when you Tumble, or sit down, or cast Alter Self. They don't say anything about you not falling when you retrieve a spell component, or when you speak. Along the same line of reasoning, the rules make no mention at all about you not receiving a free Wish every time you say "Abracadabra!"

    D&D is a game which says what happens when you take specific actions. It isn't structured to list all the things which don't happen.
    When the rules don't explicitly cover something (such as whether or not being tripped makes you fall), we're left with using logic to determine what happens. It's logical to assume that you fall when you are tripped. It is not logical to assume you fall when you tumble unless you botch the tumble roll badly enough maybe), when you sit down, cast alter self, retrieve a spell component, or speak.
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    Default Re: Catfall and Tripping

    Quote Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
    Falling in D&D generally incurs falling damage. Falling prone would enable Catfall, but taking 1d6 damage for being tripped would be a serious downside. You could be tripped unarmed or with a whip — which would normally deal nonlethal damage — but then take lethal damage from those otherwise nondamaging trip attacks!

    No, it's better to become prone without falling.
    False; you take 1d6 per ten feet beyond the first 10 feet you fall. You might be able to argue that Huge creatures might count as falling more than 10 feet from a trip, but smaller ones definitely don't.

    And, if we're parsing language so finely that "is prone [when he wasn't before]" doesn't mean he falls, then we can parse Catfall to read only "You land on your feet," saying that "no matter how far you fall" is expansive, not restrictive. It may say this power saves you from a fall, but it doesn't say that it won't allow you to land on your feet if some other, non-fall occurrence would cause some other part of you to hit the ground.

    Again, this fine parsing is no more silly than the one that insists that going from standing to prone isn't falling.

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    Default Re: Catfall and Tripping

    Quote Originally Posted by Rubik View Post
    Again, every time I've been tripped, I've fallen as a logical consequence, and as mentioned, RAW doesn't say you don't fall. I do believe that the rules say that if the rules don't cover something, you default to the way it works in the real world, do they not?
    This can become interesting quick though.

    If we count trip as falling, and tripped person spins, and lands on their feet instead, as in description - does this mean that character holding, and tripping spins around as well?

    Landing for example, on their head instead?

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    Default Re: Catfall and Tripping

    Prone

    The character is on the ground.
    Now that bit made me think whether, by stupidRAW, Stone Dragon maneuvers/stances and simular "only when standing on the ground" effects actually require you to be prone.
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    Default Re: Catfall and Tripping

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Haart View Post
    Now that bit made me think whether, by stupidRAW, Stone Dragon maneuvers/stances and simular "only when standing on the ground" effects actually require you to be prone.
    X -> Y, yes, but fortunately Y -> X does not hold; prone is one possible condition in which you are on the ground, but not the only one. (Of course, that's still a lousy definition, since definitions should not only be accurate but specific, but the lack of specificity does not itself force further wacky adventures.)
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    Default Re: Catfall and Tripping

    I believe the Feat you're looking for is Combat Acrobat. If you make a DC 20 Balance check to negate being knocked Prone, and/or a DC 15 check to ignore up to 4 squares of difficult terrain. PHBII pg 76.

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    Default Re: Catfall and Tripping

    Quote Originally Posted by Person_Man View Post
    I believe the Feat you're looking for is Combat Acrobat. If you make a DC 20 Balance check to negate being knocked Prone, and/or a DC 15 check to ignore up to 4 squares of difficult terrain. PHBII pg 76.
    Sure. But the existence of a feat doesn't mean a power can't have a similar effect. Otherwise, Daggerspell Stance couldn't exist because Two Weapon Fighting does.

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    Default Re: Catfall and Tripping

    Quote Originally Posted by Rubik View Post
    Note that if you fall less than 10 feet then you don't take damage, meaning that falling to the ground when tripped (which is totally what happens) doesn't deal damage unless you actually do fall a significant distance.
    That's a good point, but not quite accurate.
    Minimum Damage

    If penalties reduce the damage result to less than 1, a hit still deals 1 point of damage.
    If you're claiming that you must fall and smack into the ground when you're tripped, you consequently must take 1 point of lethal damage every time.
    Last edited by Curmudgeon; 2013-09-04 at 12:09 PM.

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