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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    HalflingRangerGuy

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    Default Will it fix the classes...

    ...if we used the xp/level progression table for AD&D where rogues and bards level up fastest while wizards level up slowest. This will make bards suck less and wizards pwn less. Fighters who level up faster have a distinct advantage over clerics and druids as tanks. What do you think?

    (This assumes that you played AD&D and still remember what the old xp/level system was like.)
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    Default Re: Will it fix the classes...

    I use a simplified version of that. Works great for me, but it would knack up 3.x XP progression...

    The old tables looked something like this:

    Rogue / Bard - 1,250 XP
    Fighter - 2,000 XP
    Paladin / Ranger / Barbarian - 2,250 XP
    Wizard / Sorcerer - 2.500 XP
    Cleric - 1,500 XP
    Druid - 2,000 XP
    Monk - ?
    Last edited by Matthew; 2006-12-22 at 05:55 AM.
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    Default Re: Will it fix the classes...

    If you want to actually balance the classes, you need to put all full spellcasters in the same bracket. Clerics and druids are (at least) just as powerful as wizards and sorcerers. Pretty much everyone else would be in the same lower bracket. (Rogues are more powerful than fighters, so there's no excuse for letting them level up faster.)

    Of course, there's a bit of a problem with the fact that AD&D characters required some 10 times the amount of XP to get to mid-high levels. You'd probably be better off applying a multiplier to the XP requirements of D&D characters, or altering the base rate; maybe it's X + (Y x 1,500) (where Y is current level and X is XP required for it) for wizards, or something like that. Alter the current rates instead of replacing them.

    The bigger problem here is that in AD&D, everything worked differently. How are you supposed to handle multiclassed characters in D&D? What about prestige classes? You can't switch back to the old system, where you divide XP by the number of classes and advance in all of them simultaneously.

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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Will it fix the classes...

    Yeah I must say I can't really see how it will opperate for multiclassing, and lets face it if you outlaw multiclassing you're pretty much back to 2nd edition characters anyhow, might as well just play that. Oh Fighters need more XP than clerics in second edition, which is completely crazy, it was then and it is now, talking about balance...
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    Default Re: Will it fix the classes...

    You could tag an XP percentage onto some Classes, though, like Multi Class penalties
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    Default Re: Will it fix the classes...

    Were there no multiclassing, it might be a decent idea.

    However, the problem is not in that only, because while fighter are more powerful then compared to wizards and spellcasters won't outshine everyone else, fighter also loses his nice little buffs and healing he gets is lower...

    The problem is with the system completely and either spellcasting should be fixed (rewriting all spells) or we would need a new edition... (or use Arcana evolved ;D)
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Will it fix the classes...

    I can't imagine going back the new xp system is one of my favorite things about 3.x
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    Default Re: Will it fix the classes...

    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew View Post
    You could tag an XP percentage onto some Classes, though, like Multi Class penalties
    How would that work? Say I'm a level 2 fighter, and want to take a level of wizard; where does the XP penalty come in?

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    Default Re: Will it fix the classes...

    I would say before taking the Wizard 1 [i.e. if you have only enough XP to reach Fighter 3, you can't be a Fighter 2 / Wizard 1 yet] and after that as though you had Multi Classed too many times. The exact percentage would depend on taste.
    If that doesn't work, then it's because I never actually had anybody Multi Class int the Penalty Zone, so I haven't had to implement the RAW rule!
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    Default Re: Will it fix the classes...

    So you'd have to select your next level every time you level up? Reminds me of the old Rolemaster system where you assigned development points for your next level every time you leveled up. It always got confusing for me. You'd apply the designated class' penalty to all XP earned between designating it and gaining the level. (So if I took Wizard 1 as my 3rd level, I'd get -X% to XP while I'm a 2nd-level character; if I then took Fighter 3 as my 4th level, I'd be back to -0%.)

    I guess it could work; now the only problem is assigning percentages to all the dozens of base classes and the hundreds of prestige classes; and you'd have to figure out percentages that actually balance characters in relation to each other, which seems patently impossible.

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    Default Re: Will it fix the classes...

    I find it useful to keep track of 'Actual Experience Awarded' and 'Penalised Experience' in those cases. I agree it would be inconvenient, though.

    As for assigning the XP Penalties, well that's a job for somebody else!
    It is a joyful thing indeed to hold intimate converse with a man after one’s own heart, chatting without reserve about things of interest or the fleeting topics of the world; but such, alas, are few and far between.

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    Default Re: Will it fix the classes...

    Not a bad idea. Just working out the XP for all the classes will take a while.

    How would you handle encounters though? For example, if the fighter is level 4 and the wizard is level 2. (I don't know what the XP system is in detail)
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    Default Re: Will it fix the classes...

    Good point. I guess you would just have to average it [i.e. EL 3 in that case, given that the other Characters weren't too dissimilar]. I don't really worry about doing EL and Experience by the book, so I'm probably not a good person to figure it out.
    It is a joyful thing indeed to hold intimate converse with a man after one’s own heart, chatting without reserve about things of interest or the fleeting topics of the world; but such, alas, are few and far between.

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    Default Re: Will it fix the classes...

    I'm not seeing how this will do anything other than needlessly complicate all issues of XP, CR and multiclassing. It certainly doesn't make wizards any weaker at high level, a 16th level wizard is still going to own an 18th level fighter, it just makes them spend a few sessions longer longer in the completely sucking stage before they get to the sweet spot in the mid levels.
    "They say we wizards are subtle. But believe you me, we've got nothing, nothing at all on women" - Harry Dresden, Storm Front
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    Matthew's Avatar

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    Default Re: Will it fix the classes...

    Question is what level a Wizard will be by comparison? Maybe 16, maybe not. I think it's over complicated, but it is a potential solution for what the OP is suggesting.
    It is a joyful thing indeed to hold intimate converse with a man after one’s own heart, chatting without reserve about things of interest or the fleeting topics of the world; but such, alas, are few and far between.

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    Default Re: Will it fix the classes...

    As someone pointed out in my "Make melee into massively powerful gesault characters" thread, the problem isn't one that can be fixed via a simple change in the scale of power of melee.

    The problem is casters are batman, and melee are not.

    Casters start getting "save or die", "save or suck" spells at a certain point.
    They also get "mass save or die" and "mass save or suck" spells.
    They also get "suck even if you don't save".

    The power ratio change from the "suck" spells is huge -- and once you make someone suck, you don't have to be all that powerful to destroy them.

    I suppose you could set the game up so that melee are insanely better at some realm -- but practically, the only domains melee can outpower casters is damage (in the short term) survivability. So if you follow this route, you can make blaster wizards completely obsolete... but blaster wizards aren't the problem.

    Changes like the above could, for example, deal with CoDzilla and her brother DoDzilla, the overwpowered melee-based cleric and druid.

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    Default Re: Will it fix the classes...

    Quote Originally Posted by Yakk View Post
    CoDzilla and her brother DoDzilla, the overwpowered melee-based cleric and druid.
    DoDzilla? Druid or Druid-zilla?

    The D in CoDzilla stands for druid, unless I am mistaken.
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    Default Re: Will it fix the classes...

    Oh. I thought it stood for Cleric of Dhooom!

    :)

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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Will it fix the classes...

    There are easier ways to nerf casters if that's what you are trying to do. Simply having spells take time to cast, like they did in 2nd ed, is one of the easiest. A casting time of one segment per spell level is simple, slows casting down, and makes interrupting spells easier.
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    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Will it fix the classes...

    no this will not help.
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    Default Re: Will it fix the classes...

    It's an interesting idea, but I think it's not really addressing the problem. It slows down the full casters, true. In my opinion, though, that would only help if the full casters increased in power with a smooth scaling. As it is, it seems like the full casters go through jumps in power instead. Slowing them down means they get to those jumps later, but they still jump.
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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    RangerGuy

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    Default Re: Will it fix the classes...

    yeah, for level's 1-5, casters would need to be in the lowest spectrum. 6-10, they'd need to be in the middle one. And 11-20, they'd need a ridiculously high level chart.




    And bard's shouldn't be below fighters. Granted, you need splatbook feats, but Ironskin chant, the one that lets you use music for spells, and arcane strike make them much more useful than fighters.

    Heck, a level 6 bard can obliterate almost any fighter. (Fascinate, suggestion, tasha's hideous laughter, blur, ect.)

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    Default Re: Will it fix the classes...

    Someone comented about the complexities of the Rolemaster system. A few of my friends absolutly love that system. We have created some spread sheets and custom programs to remove the confusion from developing and levling characters as well as resolving combat. It is not so bad now.

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    Default Re: Will it fix the classes...

    A Wonkey solution:

    BaB boost:

    Figher/Paladin/Ranger/Barbarian BaB: +2/1
    Bard/Rogue/Monk BaB: +3/2
    Cleric/Druid BaB: +1/1
    Sorcerer/Wizard BaB: +3/4

    Hitpoints:

    L 1 characters start with their con in HP. Levels in various classes add the following:
    Barb HP/level: 13+ConMod*3
    Figher/Paladin HP/level: 11+ConMod*3
    Ranger HP/level: 9+ConMod*2
    Bard/Rogue HP/level: 7+ConMod*2
    Cleric/Druid HP/level: 5+ConMod*2
    Wizard/Sorcerer HP/level: 3+ConMod

    Con damage or loss of bonus's cannot take your HP below 0. Damage that takes you below 0 HP stops doing HP damage at 0 HP, and applies to your con instead (see below).

    At 0 HP, you must make a Fort save against DC 20+1 for every round you have had 0 HP, or go unconcious. (it is just a matter of time, but you do have a chance to hold on for a short period)

    When you at 0 HP, every point of damage does con damage instead, which must be recovered, and you die when you run out of con.

    If you lose a point of con bonus, it costs you 2 HP for every level of your character, regardless of your con mod multiplier. Remember this lost HP can take you to zero, but cannot take you below zero (or cause further con damage).

    Bleeding:
    Every round you begin at 0 HP, roll a fort save against DC 15. On success, you stabalize, and no longer have to make saves until you take further damage. On failure, you take 1 con damage, and have to roll again next turn.

    Melee abilities:

    Melee ability progression:
    At L 1, you get L 1 and 2 melee abilities.
    At L 2, you get L 3 and 4 melee abilities.
    At L 3, you get L 5 and 6.
    ...
    At L 10, you get L 19 and L 20.

    Wizards get a bonus feat every even level.

    Bard level, for the purpose of which abilities he can use, is doubled.

    Skills:

    All characters get +1 in all of their class skills every level for free.

    Class skill skill caps go up 2 per level.
    Cross-class skill skill caps go up 1 per level.

    If you have a skill as a class skill in any class, you get +3 to your cap.
    If you do not, you get +1 to your cap.

    All skills cost 1 point to buy up, regardless of them being cross-class or class.

    ...

    Basically, all advancements, except saves and spells, grow twice as fast.

    Boosting the casters a bit:

    Casters get a spells/day of a caster 1 level higher, sorcerers 2 levels higher. Caster levels for spell purposes is 1 level higher.

    Clerics and Druids become spontaneous.

    MultipleAttributeDisodering the cseters:

    Clerics, Druids and Sorcerer save DCs are all charisma based.
    Clerics, Druids and Sorcerer get bonus spells known based off int.
    Clerics and Druids get bonus spells/day based off Wisdom.
    Sorcerers get bonus spells/day based off charisma.

    Wizards become pseudo-spontaneous. Wizards spells memorized is based off a RAW sorcerer 2 levels higher, but they can change them by reading their spell book (15 minutes per spell level).

    Wizards get save DCs based off the best of their charisma or wisdom.
    Wizards get bonus spells known and spells/day based off int.

    More casting boosting: (metamagic, item creation)

    Casting a metamagic spell does not take any extra time, unlike in RAW. You simply burn the higher level spell slot. (spontaneous metamagic rules used to suck)

    Wizards have a pool that grows by (500*level) xp, with a max of (1000*level) xp, to make magic items with. Clerics, Druids and Sorcerers get (100*level) with a max of (200*level). These pools can only be expended on charged magic items, and does not cover the GP or time costs.

    This provides casters the ability to make a reasonably impressive number of magical items without gimping themselves.

    Feats:

    Players gain a free feat on levels 1, 3, 5, 7, and 9.

    Boosts to spells:

    Damage (not stat damage, just HP damage) from spells is boosted by x2, as is the cap.

    Casters can choose to "overcharge" a spell with a casting time of 1 full round or less. This increases the casting time to 2 full rounds, boosts the DC by 1, boosts the effective caster level by 1, and grants the free use of 1 level of metamagic feats. Further overcharging can grant more free metamagic, but no more caster level and DC:

    2 full rounds: +1 metamagic, +1 caster level, +1 DC
    4 full rounds: +2 metamagic, +1 caster level, +1 DC
    10 full rounds (1 minute): +3 metamagic, +1 caster level, +1 DC

    Interruption, naturally, can occur while doing this. You must pick the overcharge amount, duration, and metamagic to apply when you start casting your spell, and any of these features that cannot normally be figured out via a spellcraft roll can be figured out via an opposed spellcraft roll.

    The reason behind this is that casters will be short on spells. This trick allows them to use their metamagic feats and their short spell list more effectively. It also boosts damage spells so that they are once again impressively powerful.

    A L 1 wizard can take 2 rounds and do 4d4+4 magic missile damage (avg 14) at double normal range (260 feet) burning only one first level spell to do so.

    A L 2 caster has access to L 2 spells.

    Monsters and Encounters:
    Monster AC is "doubled away from 10". Monster HP are max-for-the-HD. Monster BaB is doubled. Monster damage dice are boosted by 1 notch.

    DCs of traps are also doubled-from-10, and trap HP damage is doubled.

    XP earned per encounter is halved.

    ...

    There. What I did was effectively double the progression rate of melee characters, but not spellcasting. I gave spellcasting the ability to save on spells/day by burning more rounds on more effective spells. Spellcasting damage spells keeps up, but control spells don't.

    L 1 melee characters have slightly more HP and special abilities. L 1 spellcasters have more spells, less HP, and weaker melee.

    Edit: Boosted player HP by +1/level. Gave L 1 characters +con in HP at L 1. Made "below 0 HP" into your consitution (ouch!). Clarified some of the stranger varients and justified them. Added guildlines for modifying low-CR monsters to be a fight for the party.
    Last edited by Yakk; 2007-01-23 at 10:49 AM.

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    Orc in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Will it fix the classes...

    yak, the wizard/sorcerer's hp is going to be too horrible early on. say you get lvl 2 (which would be lvl 4 normally) you'd have 4 hp (assuming a 2 con mod)
    8 hp at lvl 4.... any longbow that hit (probably would) and rolled and 8.. wizard is bye bye... 1 arrow (non-crit) shouldn't be the death of a PC at lvl 4. Other than that i like it

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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: Will it fix the classes...

    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas View Post
    So you'd have to select your next level every time you level up? Reminds me of the old Rolemaster system where you assigned development points for your next level every time you leveled up. It always got confusing for me. You'd apply the designated class' penalty to all XP earned between designating it and gaining the level. (So if I took Wizard 1 as my 3rd level, I'd get -X% to XP while I'm a 2nd-level character; if I then took Fighter 3 as my 4th level, I'd be back to -0%.)

    I guess it could work; now the only problem is assigning percentages to all the dozens of base classes and the hundreds of prestige classes; and you'd have to figure out percentages that actually balance characters in relation to each other, which seems patently impossible.
    it would be dreadfullly easier to just take that xp penalty and turn it around to an added cost for a wizard level

    when the next level you are taking is a full caster level then,
    A = (1000 + 100 x C) x L
    A = experience needed
    C = total number of Full Caster levels character will have Including the one he is trying to take
    L = Current Character Level

    example 1 : 1st level wizard wants to take second level of wizard, he needs 1200 XP
    example 2 4th level fighter want to take 1st Wizard level, he needs 4400 XP

    example 3 : 5th level wizard wants to take 1st level of fighter, he needs 5000 xp because he is not taking a wizard level, however once he gets 5000 xp he decides to take wizard instead, now he needs another 3000 XP

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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: Will it fix the classes...

    um just to add this in, I have never really seen or had this problem in any of the groups i've been a part of. Even when we went crazy with super statted characters at epic levels, heck i remember more then one situation when only the abilities of the melee fighters saved the specllcasters butts, once we fought that enormous ice golem thing from the epic level handbook, the only reason we were able to bring it down was because our Epic Iaijutsu Master was so broken and twinked out that he full-attack Iaijutsu Focused its ass with 5 swords, he caught it flat-footed, used his iaijutsu strike as a haste action (it was in 3.0) then used his Echoes of the edge then dropped that sword and began a full attack action taking the time to free action iaijutsu striek before each attack and drop the sword he used after each attack and yes he had 5 katana statted on his sheet, all +5 keen with various different bane abilities on them, you know so he had whatever he needed, he dealt it thousands of damage then went outside and smoked. he quote "shot his load"

    http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ei/20030902a

    epic iaijutsu master... so wrong

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    Default Re: Will it fix the classes...

    Quote Originally Posted by jlousivy View Post
    yak, the wizard/sorcerer's hp is going to be too horrible early on. say you get lvl 2 (which would be lvl 4 normally) you'd have 4 hp (assuming a 2 con mod)
    8 hp at lvl 4.... any longbow that hit (probably would) and rolled and 8.. wizard is bye bye... 1 arrow (non-crit) shouldn't be the death of a PC at lvl 4. Other than that i like it
    Fixed your HP concern. Arrows can't kill a L 4 character, unless they have 6 constitution. If they have 6 constitution, they deserve to die from 1 arrow. :)

    L 4 characters, by constitution:
    20 con Barbarian: 132 HP
    14 con Barbarian: 90 HP
    10 con Barbarian: 62 HP
    8 con Barbarian: 48 HP
    6 con Barbarian: 34 HP
    20 con Fighter/Paladin: 124 HP
    14 con Fighter/Paladin: 82 HP
    10 con Fighter/Paladin: 54 HP
    8 con Fighter/Paladin: 40 HP
    6 con Fighter/Paladin: 26 HP
    20 con Ranger: 96 HP
    14 con Ranger: 66 HP
    10 con Ranger: 46 HP
    8 con Ranger: 36 HP
    6 con Ranger: 26 HP
    14 con Rogue/Bard: 58 HP
    10 con Rogue/Bard: 38 HP
    8 con Rogue/Bard: 28 HP
    6 con Rogue/Bard: 18 HP
    14 con Druid/Cleric: 50 HP
    10 con Druid/Cleric: 30 HP
    8 con Druid/Cleric: 20 HP
    6 con Druid/Cleric: 10 HP
    14 con Wizard/Sorc: 34 HP
    10 con Wizard/Sorc: 22 HP
    8 con Wizard/Sorc: 16 HP
    6 con Wizard/Sorc: 10 HP

    There. If you want more HP, get more constitution.

    Hmm. Gonna add a damage-to-con addendum.

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    Default Re: Will it fix the classes...

    The Table:
    Code:
            BaB                |     Melee       |Casters |Feats
    Level   3/4  1/1  3/2  2/1 |d12  d10  d8  d6 |d8  d4  |All  Ftr  Wiz
    1       +0   +1   +1   +2   13   11   9   7   5   3    1    2    0
    2       +1   +2   +3   +4   26   22   18  14  10  6    1    3    1
    3       +2   +3   +4   +6*  39   33   27  21  15  9    2    4    1
    4       +3   +4   +6*  +8   52   44   36  28  20  12   2    5    2
    5       +3   +5   +7   +10  65   55   45  35  25  15   3    6    2
    6       +4   +6*  +9   +12* 78   66   54  42  30  18   3    7    3
    7       +5   +7   +11* +14  91   77   63  49  35  21   4    8    3
    8       +6*  +8   +12  +16* 104  88   72  56  40  24   4    9    4
    9       +6   +9   +14  +18  117  99   81  63  45  27   5    10   4
    10      +7   +10  +15  +20  130  110  90  70  50  30   5    11   5
    *: gains a new attack iteration.

    d12 and d10 HP get 3*con per level.
    Other melee get 2*con per level.
    d8 casters get 2*con per level.
    Wizards and Sorcs get 1*con per level.

    Spells known: (sorcerer, druid, cleric, wizard)
    Code:
            Known 
    Level   0  1  2  3  4  5  6
    1       6  6  -  -  -  -  -
    2       6  6  3  -  -  -  -
    3       6  6  4  -  -  -  -
    4       6  6  5  3  -  -  -
    5       6  6  6  4  -  -  -
    6       6  6  6  5  3  -  -
    7       6  6  6  6  4  -  -
    8       6  6  6  6  5  3  -
    9       6  6  6  6  6  4  -
    10      6  6  6  6  6  5  3
    Add int based bonus spells/day to L 1 to 6 spells known.
    Add raw int bonus to L 0 spells known.
    If you have a negative int modifier, subtract it from spells known of every level (min 1)

    Wizards can swap out their spells if they have it in their spell books. This takes 15 minutes per level of the spell swapped.

    Any class may consume a scroll to swap out a spell known. This takes 15 minutes per level of the spell swapped, and consumes the scroll.

    Wizards can scribe spells they know into their spellbook. See the usual rules for scribing spells.

    Sorcerers and Wizards can steal spells from a Wizard's spellbook. This is a special use of Read Magic. The process erases the spell from the spellbook being read, and replaces a spell known by the Wizard or Sorcerer.

    When you gain a level and "know" new spells, you gain them without any special effort. The spells gained are determined as follows:

    Clerics gain their domain spells and their cure spells first. If they don't have enough room for all of it, they get to pick.

    Druids gain Summon Nature's Ally.

    Druids automatically know Summon Nature's Ally when they gain a new spell circle.

    Other new spells as you gain a level are determined randomly via the usual scroll generation tables.

    One of the spells rolled randomly for a specialist wizard must be from the wizard's specialization.

    Spells gained this way are scribed for free in the Wizard's spellbook.

    In addition, Druids, Clerics and Sorcerers can "forget" one spell of their choice and roll for another every level. Every level, wizards get to scribe (free of charge) 1 spell of their highest spell circle, and 1 spell of the next highest, determined randomly. This is in addition to new spells known.

    Finding new scrolls is encouraged, but "Magic Shoppes of Scrolls" is not. If the players are fighting monsters that shouldn't have scrolls, the DM should have players find "key magical ingredients" that can be used to self-scribe an existing scroll (roll on the scroll table, find the spell, make up the balderdash).

    Paladin, Ranger spells known:
    Code:
           Known    Per Day
    Level  1  2  3  1  2  3
    3      2  -  -  0  -  -
    4      3  -  -  0  -  -
    5      4  -  -  1  -  -
    6      5  -  -  1  -  -
    7      6  2  -  1  0  -
    8      6  3  -  1  0  -
    9      6  4  -  1  1  -
    10     6  5  2  1  1  0
    Int modifies spells known, as above. Wis modifies spells/day and resist mods.

    There is no minimium stat required to cast spells of level X. Each negative modifier on your spells/day stat costs you 1 spell/day in your highest attainable spell circle.

    Paladins/Rangers gain new spells known just like Druids and Clerics do.
    Last edited by Yakk; 2007-01-23 at 11:27 AM.

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