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    Ogre in the Playground
     
    nonsi's Avatar

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    Apr 2010

    Default Dragonfury Disciple, take II (PEACH)

    .
    Born from its previous manifestation + Amechra’s insights + idea picking from Lix Lorn’s Draconic Adept, this is the second and radically different DFD.





    Hit Dice: d10
    {table=head]Level|
    BAB
    |Fort|Ref|Will|Special|Invocations

    1st|
    +0
    |
    +2
    |
    +0
    |
    +2
    | Assume Draconic Form (Str +2, Scales, Wings: +10' jump), Breath Weapon, Unlocked Draconic Ancestry|
    11
    |

    2nd|
    +1
    |
    +3
    |
    +0
    |
    +3
    |Breath Effect|
    1
    |

    3rd|
    +2
    |
    +3
    |
    +1
    |
    +3
    | Draconic Senses (Low-Light Vision: x2, Darkvision: 60')|
    2
    |

    4th|
    +3
    |
    +4
    |
    +1
    |
    +4
    | Assume Draconic Form (Cha +2, Wings: Gliding, 2 Claws (primary)), Primal Vitality (damage)|
    2
    |

    5th|
    +3
    |
    +4
    |
    +1
    |
    +4
    | Breath Effect|
    2
    |

    6th|
    +4
    |
    +5
    |
    +2
    |
    +5
    | Draconic Resolve|
    32
    |

    7th|
    +5
    |
    +5
    |
    +2
    |
    +5
    | Assume Draconic Form (Str +2, Wings: Limited Flight, Bite (secondary)), Breath Weapon Ranges Double|
    3
    |

    8th|
    +6/+1
    |
    +6
    |
    +2
    |
    +6
    | Breath Effect|
    4
    |

    9th|
    +6/+1
    |
    +6
    |
    +3
    |
    +6
    | Draconic Senses (Low-Light Vision: x3, Darkvision: 90', Blindsense: 30')|
    4
    |

    10th|
    +7/+2
    |
    +7
    |
    +3
    |
    +7
    | Assume Draconic Form (Con +2, Bite (primary), Wings: Effortless Flight), Primal Vitality (conditions)|
    4
    |

    11th|
    +8/+3
    |
    +7
    |
    +3
    |
    +7
    | Breath Effect|
    53
    |

    12th|
    +9/+4
    |
    +8
    |
    +4
    |
    +8
    | Powerful Exhalation (3 / day)|
    5
    |

    13th|
    +9/+4
    |
    +8
    |
    +4
    |
    +8
    | Assume Draconic Form (Str +2, Tail (secondary), Breath Weapon Ranges Triple|
    6
    |

    14th|
    +10/+5
    |
    +9
    |
    +4
    |
    +9
    | Breath Effect|
    6
    |

    15th|
    +11/+6/+1
    |
    +9
    |
    +5
    |
    +9
    | Draconic Senses (Low-Light Vision: x4, Darkvision: 120', Blindsense: 60')|
    6
    |

    16th|
    +12/+7/+2
    |
    +10
    |
    +5
    |
    +10
    | Assume Draconic Form (Cha +2, true dragon form), Primal Vitality (heal others)|
    74
    |

    17th|
    +12/+7/+2
    |
    +10
    |
    +5
    |
    +10
    | Breath Effect|
    7
    |

    18th|
    +13/+8/+3
    |
    +11
    |
    +6
    |
    +11
    | Powerful Exhalation (limitless)|
    8
    |

    19th|
    +14/+9/+4
    |
    +11
    |
    +6
    |
    +11
    | Assume Draconic Form (Str +4, Con +2), Breath Weapon Ranges Quadruple|
    8
    |

    20th|
    +15/+10/+5
    |
    +12
    |
    +6
    |
    +12
    | Breath Effect|
    8
    |

    [/table]

    1. The DFD Gains access to Least draconic invocations.
    2. The DFD Gains access to Lesser draconic invocations.
    3. The DFD Gains access to Greater draconic invocations.
    4. The DFD Gains access to Wyrm draconic invocations.



    Class Skills: The DFD’s class skills are: Appraise, Autohypnosis, Balance, Bluff, Climb, Concentration, Craft, Decipher Script, Diplomacy, Disguise, Escape Artist, Gather Information, Heal, Hide, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge, Listen, Lucid Dreaming, Move Silently, Perform, Search, Sense Motive, Speak Language, Spellcraft, Spot, Survival, Swim and Use Magic Device.

    Skill Points per level: 4 + Int-mod.

    Weapons & Armor: DFDs are proficient with simple weapons and one additional martial weapon of their choice, but not with armor or shields. Like arcane spellcasters, a DFD wearing armor or using a shield incurs ASF (all invocations have somatic components).




    Assume Draconic Form (Ex)
    A DFD’s primary ability and the one feature that defines this class is the ability to assume an ever-reliable form of a true dragon.
    Entering and leaving a draconic form is a standard action.
    A DFD may enter or leave draconic form as often as desired, and remains in draconic form indefinitely, until reverting back.
    The benefits of Draconic Form are presented in the table and detailed as follows:

    - Ability Increase:
    Spoiler
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    Taking on Draconic Form has a dramatic effect on one's ability scores.
    At levels 1, 7 and 13, a DFD gains +2 Strength enhancement. At level 19, a DFD gains +4 Strength enhancement.
    At levels 4 and 16, a DFD gains +2 Charisma enhancement.
    At levels 10 and 19, a DFD gains +2 Constitution enhancement.

    - Scales:
    Spoiler
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    When assuming Draconic Form, 1st level DFDs gain +3 natural armor to their AC. Each 2 DFD levels increase this AC bonus by a cumulative +1 (+13 at 20th).
    For each 3 points of DFD-associated nat. AC bonus, a character gains energy resistance +5 vs. fire and any damage type gained via Breath Effects.
    Also, for each 4 DFD levels, draconic scales grant a cumulative DR 1/magic.

    - Wings:
    Spoiler
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    Jump: When assuming draconic form, DFDs sprout small wings that aid their jumps, granting a +10 racial bonus on Jump checks.
    Gliding: Starting at 4th level, A DFD can use his wings to glide, negating damage from a fall from any height and allowing 20 feet of forward travel for every 5 feet of descent. DFD glide at a speed of 30 feet with average maneuverability. Even if a DFD's maneuverability improves, he can't hover while gliding. A DFD can't glide while carrying a medium or heavy load.
    If a DFD becomes unconscious or helpless while in midair, her wings naturally unfurl, and powerful ligaments stiffen them. The DFD descends slowly in a tight corkscrew and takes only 1d6 points of falling damage, no matter the actual distance of the fall.
    Flight: A 7th level DFD gains a fly speed of 30 feet with average maneuverability. A DFD can't fly while carrying a medium or heavy load or while fatigued or exhausted. A DFD can safely fly for a number of consecutive rounds equal to his Con-mod (minimum 1 round). He can double this length of flight but is fatigued by such exertion. The DFD is likewise fatigued after spending a total of more than 10 minutes per day flying. Because a DFD can glide before, after, and between rounds of actual flight, he can remain aloft for extended periods, even if he can only use flight for 1 round at a time without becoming fatigued.
    Effortless Flight: When reaching 10th level, a DFD has enough stamina and prowess to fly without tiring. He can fly at a speed of 30 feet (average maneuverability) with no more exertion than walking or running.

    -A DFD with flight can make a dive attack. A dive attack works like a charge, but the DFD must move a minimum of 30 feet and descend at least 10 feet. A DFD can make a dive attack only when wielding a piercing weapon. If the dive attack hits, it deals double damage.

    -A DFD with flight can use the run action while flying, provided she flies in a straight line.

    - Claws, Bit & Tail:
    Spoiler
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    Starting at4th level, a DFD’s claws are powerful enough to make primary claw attacks. A medium sized DFD’s Claw deal 1d4 + Str-mod slashing damage.
    Starting at7th level, a DFD gains a secondary bite attack. A medium sized DFD’s Bite deals 1d6 + Str-mod slashing damage. At 10th level, Bite becomes a primary attack.
    Starting at13th level, a DFD gains a secondary Tail attack, dealing 1d4 + 1˝ Str-bonus bludgeoning damage.

    - True Dragon Form:
    Spoiler
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    Upon attaining 16th level, a DFD finally unlocks the one secret he’s been after his whole life – the ability to take the form of a true dragon, A DFD can choose any dragon color and age category with HD up to his DFD class level, but is limited to dragon races with breath weapon damage type in his repertoire (fire + damage types gained via Breath Effect class feature).
    For all intents & purposes associated with combat and appearance, statistically speaking, a DFD in True Dragon Form is effectively a dragon of his DFD class level in HD, gaining all racial features except mental stats, spells, (Su) abilities and (Sp) abilities.
    Notice that a 19th level DFD doesn't have to take True Draconic Form if it's inconvenient, but also that the physical stats' boost of Assume Draconic Form don't apply in true dragon form (the Cha increase OTOH does).
    Special: When taking on True Dragon Form and transforming into a dragon race with non-damaging breath weapon with a special effect (e.g. sleep, weakness, slow etc), an epic level DFD that has taken the appropriate breath effect may choose to use the true dragon's breath weapon, if it's to his advantage.

    Note: If and when convenient, a DFD can independently decrease/disable any aspect of his Draconic Form (e.g. no scales, no bite attack, less developed wings etc) without hindering any of the other aspects. However, True Dragon Form cannot be "tampered with". It's an all-or-noting deal.



    Breath Weapon (Su)
    All DFDs possess a breath weapon, which deals Xd8 Fire damage in a 15' cone, where X = [1/2 DFD level (rounded up)] + [1/2 Con-bonus, capped at 1/4 DFD level (rounded down)].
    Much like a True Dragon, they must wait 1d4 rounds before they can use this breath
    At 7th, 13th, and 19th levels, the range of their breath weapon doubles (30’), triples (45’) and quadruples (60’) respectively.


    Unlocked Draconic Ancestry (Ex)
    All DFDs start with Dragontouched as bonus feat (associated with a fire breathing dragon sub-race), even if they don’t meet the normal requirements.
    In addition, they gain the following ability modifiers: Con +2, Dex -2.
    DFDs also have Darkvision out to 30'. Darkvision is black and white only, but it is otherwise like normal sight, and a DFD can function just fine with no light at all. If the DFD possesses Darkvision from other sources (like racial), the ranges stack, but the total range cannot exceed 120’.
    Finally, all the DFD’s age categories above Adult are doubled. At 6th DFD level, the character’s age categories triple. This multiplier continues to steadily increase by a cumulative +1 for each additional 6 DFD levels,


    Breath Effect
    Starting from 2nd level, this power basically functions as given for Dragon Magic's Dragonfire Adept, except for the given below:
    - Breath Effects that in the book are limited to levels 10 & 15 are limited to levels 8 & 14 respectively.
    - Both Discorporating Breath of Bahamut and Fivefold Breath of Tiamat can only be executed as variations of Powerful Exhalation (see below). The latter also provokes AoOs.
    - Line shaped breath weapons extend to twice that of a DFD’s cone shaped breath weapons (30’ / 60’ / 90’ / 120’, according to the DFD’s level).

    The damage dice of a DFD’s breath weapon attack are determined by the breath weapon damage type (gained via Breath Effects) a DFD chooses to utilize, as follows:
    - d8: Common damage types, such as acid, cold fire and lightning, as well as physical damage (bludgeoning/piercing/slashing/nonlethal).
    - d6: Rarer energies such as Sonic, negative or positive energy.
    - d4: Exceedingly rare damage types such as force, light or raw arcane energy.
    A DFD's scales change colors to reflect all the different breath weapon damage types he can generate (layered inward, according to the order of selection).

    Breath Effects may be swapped for applying Eldritch Essences (from any officially 3.5e document published by WotC) to one’s breath weapon. Applying Repelling Blast to a DFD's breathe weapon changes the damage type to Bludgeoning instead of energy.
    Breath Effects may also be swapped for metabreath feats.

    New Breath Effects:
    Spoiler
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    Energy Bullet [5th DFD level]: Strike one foe at great distance as if with your breath weapon.
    Fell Breath [8th DFD level]: Your breath weapon animates those killed as undead, can be negative energy damage.
    Holy Breath [8th DFD level]: Your breath weapon can turn struck undead, can be positive energy damage.
    Spikes, Blades and Stones [8th DFD level]: Your breath weapon deals Bludgeoning/Piercing/Slashing damage.

    Spoiler
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    Energy Bullet [5th DFD level]
    Make a ranged touch attack within 4 times the distance of your cone shaped breath weapon. The target, if hit, takes damage as if from your breath weapon. They are not entitled to a save. You may use breath invocations in conjunction with this breath effect, but if any invocations used mention a saving throw, a ‘fortitude half’ save is allowed.

    Fell Breath [8th DFD level]
    When you use this breath weapon you deal Negative Energy damage, and foes killed by the effect are animated as zombies under your control. At the end of the encounter, any undead that surpass the limit of undead you can control no longer obey your commands, and may attack you.

    Holy Breath [8th DFD level]
    When you use this breath weapon you deal Positive Energy damage, and undead within range are affected as if you used Turn Undead, using your caster level as your cleric level. Closer foes are affected first, but otherwise the range is only limited by that of your breath weapon.

    Spikes, Blades and Stones [8th DFD level]
    You emit a cone shaped spray of tiny obsidian-like debris and deal physical damage with your breath weapon. The debris dissipates upon impact.
    You may change the damage type of your breath weapon to Bludgeoning/Piercing/Slashing damage instead of energy damage.
    This attack counts as magical for the purpose of overcoming DR.
    You may apply only one type of physical damage per breath weapon usage.




    Draconic Senses (Ex)
    Starting at 4th level, a DFD gains Low-Light Vision. Characters with Low-Light Vision have eyes that are so sensitive to light that they can see twice as far as normal in dim light. Low-Light Vision is color vision. A spellcaster with Low-Light Vision can read a scroll as long as even the tiniest candle flame is next to her as a source of light. Characters with Low-Light Vision can see outdoors on a moonlit night as well as they can during the day. If the DFD possesses Low-Light Vision from other sources (like racial), the ranges stack, but the total range cannot exceed x4.
    Starting at 9th level, a DFD gains Blindsens. blindsense, lets the creature notice things it cannot see. The creature with blindsense usually does not need to make Spot or Listen checks to notice and locate creatures within range of its blindsense ability, provided that it has line of effect to that creature. Any opponent the creature cannot see has total concealment (50% miss chance) against the creature with blindsense, and the blindsensing creature still has the normal miss chance when attacking foes that have concealment. Visibility still affects the movement of a creature with blindsense. A creature with blindsense is still denied its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class against attacks from creatures it cannot see.
    The ranges of Low-Light Vision, Darkvision and Blindsense improve as shown in the table.


    Primal Vitality (Su)
    Starting at 4th level, you can heal your own wounds as a swift/immediate action, or as part of a move/standard/full round action.
    Each day you can heal a number of points of damage equal to twice your class level × your Cha-bonus.

    Starting at 10th level, you can choose to substitute some of your Primal Vitality healing for removing other harmful conditions affecting you.
    - For every 5 points of your healing ability you expend, you can cure 1 point of ability damage or remove the dazed, fatigued, or sickened condition.
    - For every 10 points of your healing ability you expend, you can remove the exhausted, nauseated, poisoned, or stunned condition.
    - For every 20 points of your healing ability you expend, you can remove a negative level or the blinded, deafened, or diseased condition.
    You can remove a condition (or more than one condition) and heal damage with the same use of this ability, so long as you expend the required number of points. For example, if you wanted to heal 12 points of damage and remove the blinded and exhausted conditions, you would have to expend 42 points (12 hit points restored plus 20 points for blinded plus 10 points for exhausted).

    Starting at 16th level, you may affect other willing targets with Primal Vitality.
    You may do so via touch or at a range no greater than the range of your Frightful Presence when assuming True Dragon Form.
    Applying Primal Vitality via touch is resolved as a touch attack.
    Applying Primal Vitality at a range is resolved as a ranged touch attack.


    Draconic Resolve (Ex)
    At 6th level, a DFD gains immunity to paralysis and sleep effects.
    The DFD also becomes immune to the frightful presence of dragons.


    Powerful Exhalation (Su)
    Starting at 12th level, three times per day, as a full round action, a DFD’s breath weapon deals damage dice equal to his DFD level, but then he must wait 2d4+1 rounds before he can use his Breath Weapon class feature again. If a DFD takes damage during this move action, he may still fire his breath weapon, but it doesn’t count as Powerful Exhalation and the DFD still must wait the normal “cooldown” time of 2d4+1 rounds.
    Starting at 18th level, a DFD may use Powerful Exhalation without daily restriction.




    Invocations
    Spoiler
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    Least
    Spoiler
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    - All-Seeing Eyes (CM): Breathe and use breath weapon underwater; gain swim speed.
    - Aquatic Adaptation (DMag): Breathe and use breath weapon underwater; gain swim speed.
    - Beguiling Influence (CArc): Gain bonus on Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimidate checks.
    - Blazing Strike: Use your breath weapon to enhance an attack.
    - Darkness (CArc): As the spell.
    - Deafening Roar (DMag): Cone of sound deafens creatures.
    - Draconic Knowledge (DMag): Gain bonus on Knowledge and Spellcraft checks.
    - Draconic Utterance: Speak draconic word of power to shatter object. As Baleful Utterance (CArc)
    - Endure Exposure (DMag): Use Endure Elements as the spell; target gains immunity to your breath weapon.
    - Magic Insight (DMag): Detect magical auras; identity magic items.
    - Scalding Gust (DMag): Use gust of wind as the spell; any creature in area takes your chosen damage type, equal to your DFD level.
    - Serpent’s Tongue (CArc): Gain the scent ability, +5 bonus on saves against poison.
    - Smoke Dragon’s Breath: Breathe out a Fog Cloud. As Breath of the Night. (CArc)

    Spoiler
    Show

    Blazing Strike [1st SL]
    This invocation is used as a swift action. The next time the DFD strikes a foe with a physical melee attack (natural/manufactured) during the DFD’s turn, the foe is affected as if targeted by the DFD's breath weapon. A successful Fort save halves the damage.



    Lesser
    Spoiler
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    - Charm (CArc): Cause a single creature to regard you as a friend.
    - Draconic Flight (CArc): Sprout wings and fly at good maneuverability; fly longer overland. As Fell Flight.
    - Enthralling Voice (DMag): Enthrall nearby creatures.
    - Ghostly Hide [Lesser, 4th]: Your natural armor gain the Ghost Touch property.
    - Ghostly Touch [Lesser, 4th]: Your natural attacks gain the Ghost Touch property.
    - Humanoid Shape (DMag): Take the form of any humanoid creature.
    - Voracious Dispelling: (CArc) Use dispel magic as the spell, dealing damage to creatures whose effects are dispelled.
    - Walk Unseen (CArc): Use invisibility (self only) as the spell.

    Spoiler
    Show

    Ghostly Hide [4th SL]
    Your natural armor gain the Ghost Touch property. This invocation lasts 24 hours.

    Ghostly Touch [4th SL]
    Your natural attacks gain the Ghost Touch property. This invocation lasts 24 hours.



    Greater
    Spoiler
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    - Baleful Geas (DMag): A single creature becomes your servant, but slowly sickens and dies.
    - Chilling Fog (DMag): Create solid fog that deals cold damage.
    - Devour Magic (CArc): Use targeted greater dispel innate with a touch and gain temporary hit points based on the level of the spell successfully dispelled.
    - Draconic Toughness (DMag): Gain temporary hit points equal to your level.
    - Draconic Whispers [Greater, 5th]: Compels subject to follow stated course of action.
    - Mire of the Black Dragon [Greater, 5th]: Acidic sludge slows progress, deals damage.
    - Terrifying Roar (DMag): Use fear as the spell; creatures shaken by effect can't attack you.
    - Wingstorm (DMag): Create powerful gusts of wind with your draconic wings.

    Spoiler
    Show

    Draconic Whispers [5th SL]
    You can use a suggestion effect, as the spell. Additionally, when the duration ends or the task is completed, the subject must attempt a second Will save with a -5 penalty. If this second save fails, the subject completely forgets that you were the one who suggested the course of action mandated by the use of Draconic Whispers, instead becoming convinced that it was his own idea-even if he's not certain why he might have chosen to perform such an action.
    A successful break enchantment spell can rid him of this delusion, but dispel magic and similar effects cannot. You can have a number of Draconic Whispers active at any one time equal to your Charisma modifier (min 1).
    Draconic Whispers is a mind-affecting compulsion effect.

    Mire of the Black Dragon [5th SL]
    You can use caustic mire as the spell.
    You cover the ground in an acidic slime, roughly the consistency of thick mud. The sludge is sticky, reducing movement by half. In addition, each square entered deals 1d6 points of acid damage to the creature moving. A creature who stands in the area without moving from its space takes 1d6 points of damage per round at the end of its turn.
    The fumes rising out of caustic mire are flammable. Any effect that deals fire damage within an area of caustic mire deals an extra 1 point of damage per die (minimum of +1 damage).
    If you use this invocation a second time while previous caustic mire is still present, the previous effect ends.



    Wyrm
    Spoiler
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    - Caster's Lament (CM): Your touch can break enchantment, and you can counterspell.
    - Draconic Flight, Greater (DMag): Sprout wings and fly at perfect maneuverability; gain overland speed.
    - Energy Immunity (DMag): Gain immunity to acid, cold, electricity, fire, or sonic damage.
    - Instill Vulnerability (DMag): Make target creature vulnerable to specified energy type.
    - Perilous Veil (DMag): Use veil as the spell; anyone succeeding on Will save to negate the illusion takes damage.


    DMag's DFA Invocations: http://jynnxies-games.deviantart.com...ions-181897235
    CArc's & CM's Warlock Invocations: http://eberronunlimited.wikidot.com/warlock-invocations





    New Feats:
    Spoiler
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    Accelerated Draconic Transformation
    Assuming draconic form could sometimes mean the difference between life and death, so you have decided to go the extra mile to make sure it is obtainable as soon as humanly possible.
    Prerequisites: Dragonfury Disciple 7th level.
    Benefits: You may now enter and leave Draconic Form as a move action instead of a standard action.

    Eldritch Adept
    Your curiosity regarding foreign eldritch powers grants you exotic invocations previously beyond your grasp.
    Prerequisites: Ability to use greater invocations.
    Benefits: You learn an invocation from another class's list. The chosen invocation may be no more than two grades below the highest invocation grade you know (Least at levels 11th – 15th, Least or Lesser from 16th and on).
    This feat can be taken multiple times.

    Eldritch Reattunement
    Your quest to fully understand the potential of your heritage grants you access to powers usually beyond your practice.
    Prerequisites: One or more Extra Invocation.
    Benefits: Once every 24hrs, you may temporarily lose access to one of your extra invocations in order to gain access to another invocation of the same level or lower on your class’ list that’s not in your repertoire. This process takes 10 minutes of uninterrupted meditation, can only be done after getting a good night’s sleep and lasts either until the next time you’re fully rested, fall unconscious or (if and when relevant) brought back from the dead.
    Special I: Starting the process of gaining temporary access to an invocation immediately terminates the effect of the previous one (including the character's original extra invocation).
    Special II: If you also have taken Eldritch Adept, you may probe that foreign list for your temporary access invocation, however, Eldritch Adept does not serve as a legitimate requirement for Eldritch Reattunement.
    Writer's Note: 'Special II' might seem excessive at 1st glance, but I've seen pro arguments in favor of allowing the DFD access to all non-shape non-essence Warlock invocations, and I don't see how gaining access to two invocation grades below in a foreign list could possibly cause a noticeable power spike).

    Eldritch Reattunement Mastery
    Your quest to fully understand the potential of your heritage grants you unparalleled eldritch versatility.
    Prerequisites: Extra Invocation: Least, Extra Invocation: Lesser, Extra Invocation: Greater, Eldritch Reattunement, invoking class level 18.
    Benefits: When reattuning an invocation, you may prolong the process and reattune any number of your extra invocation, spending 10 minutes on each of them – including extra invocations gained via Eldritch Adept feat (if any).
    Special I: This feat qualifies you to spend feats to gain extra invocations of the highest grade you have access to (Dark/Wyrm).
    Special II: If you also have taken Eldritch Adept: Least and Eldritch Adept: Lesser, then you also qualify to spend feats to gain Eldritch Adept: Greater.
    Writer's Note: This feat obviously grants a totally different level of flexibility to a character that has reached it, but to get there, one must spend no less than 5 feats (probably more), meaning a player must trade all of his/her character optimization tools. This is an even more drastic step than going Mystic Theurge, and by the time this feat is accessible, full spellcasters cause the earth to tremble, the skies to rain meteors, creatures of demigod powers to serve them, the dead to return at no penalties and wishes to come true (and to exploit its full potential, 2 more feats are required - that's well into the epic realm). I’d say this one doesn't even begin to scratch the surface.

    Extra Breath Effect
    Prerequisites: DFD 6th level
    Benefit: You gain one breath effect with a minimum level no higher than your effective DFD level - 5.
    Special: You may select this feat multiple times. Each time, you gain access to a new breath effect.

  2. - Top - End - #2

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Just to Browse's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2011

    Default Re: Dragonfury Disciple, take II (PEACH)

    Random bolding is still weird.

    A lot of my initial problems with this got fixed, but I still have a few big issues:

    True Dragon Form: There are so many things about monsters, that this needs way more detail. Does the DFD get their spells, their supernatural abilities, or their natural attacks? Do the stats only change based on size, or do they also change in accordance to the dragon he's transforming into? Does he get the breath weapon? Why doesn't Constitution change?

    Also why do you want this ability? Turning into an "adult" dragon when you have "wyrm" invocations is really dissonant, and I think it would be better if you just handed out another set of bonuses instead of a complicated and/or vague semi-polymorph ability.

    Powerful Exhalation: Getting this at 12th level is terrible. A player will have given up on dealing any useful kind of AoE damage long before then. (seriously, 6d10 is almost always resisted as deals only 33 damage before saves. Creatures that show up in hordes will have about twice that much HP), and making the DFD take their entire action and hurt allies just to get almost-meaningful damage is insulting.

    Energy / Damage Resistance: At level 1, you get 5 Fire Res per 2 nat armor, and you have 6 nat armor, meaning you're immune to basically all level-appropriate fire damage. This scaling is also horrifying because at level 20 you have a whopping 30 fire resistance, which is less than half a fireball.

    DR 1/magic is useless at basically all levels. DR anything/magic is useless around levels 6-9 and henceforth. If you're making the DR this low then just get rid of it.
    Last edited by Just to Browse; 2013-09-11 at 06:34 PM.

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    Default Re: Dragonfury Disciple, take II (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Just to Browse View Post
    Random bolding is still weird.
    The intent was to bold all class features, to create a nice visual segregation. I just left out two 1st level features by mistake.
    "Breath Effect" is intentionally not bolded, because it's easy to spot anyway and this makes things easier on my eyes.


    Quote Originally Posted by Just to Browse View Post
    True Dragon Form: There are so many things about monsters, that this needs way more detail. Does the DFD get their spells, their supernatural abilities, or their natural attacks? Do the stats only change based on size, or do they also change in accordance to the dragon he's transforming into? Does he get the breath weapon? Why doesn't Constitution change?
    - AFAIK, the only globally inherent draconic (Su) ability is breath weapon. And since the character already had the breath weapon of the dragon he transformed into, and since the DFD's breath weapon damage exceeds true dragons' damage output, simply use the character's regular damage output.
    - Alternate Form - I'd rule out against this one, because the whole idea of this class is turning into dragons, not other humanoids.
    - Racially inherent (Ex/Sp), I'd say yes.
    - Spells - no way.
    - Natural Attacks: by all means yes, they get the better of both worlds from their form, size and class abilities.
    - Physical stats: the better between racial & size change.

    Did I leave anything out ?


    Quote Originally Posted by Just to Browse View Post
    Also why do you want this ability? Turning into an "adult" dragon when you have "wyrm" invocations is really dissonant, and I think it would be better if you just handed out another set of bonuses instead of a complicated and/or vague semi-polymorph ability.
    1. Size bonuses are size bonuses, even if mild.
    2. Posing as a true dragon (and more that one type - think of the potential strategic value) when convenient.
    3. Opponents tend to take an "adult" dragon lightly. This could make them lower their guard.
    I'll try to make things a bit less vague later on, according to the noted above.


    Quote Originally Posted by Just to Browse View Post
    Powerful Exhalation: Getting this at 12th level is terrible. A player will have given up on dealing any useful kind of AoE damage long before then. (seriously, 6d10 is almost always resisted as deals only 33 damage before saves. Creatures that show up in hordes will have about twice that much HP), and making the DFD take their entire action and hurt allies just to get almost-meaningful damage is insulting.
    I'm suspecting that you might have missed out on the added Con-bonus dice to breath weapon damage.


    Quote Originally Posted by Just to Browse View Post
    Energy / Damage Resistance: At level 1, you get 5 Fire Res per 2 nat armor, and you have 6 nat armor, meaning you're immune to basically all level-appropriate fire damage. This scaling is also horrifying because at level 20 you have a whopping 30 fire resistance, which is less than half a fireball.
    How much would you make it ?


    Quote Originally Posted by Just to Browse View Post
    DR 1/magic is useless at basically all levels. DR anything/magic is useless around levels 6-9 and henceforth. If you're making the DR this low then just get rid of it.
    Not entirely true.
    Vermin & (Dire) Animal & Dinosaur types never bypass DR #/magic, categorically. (not entirely sure about Magical Beast & Aberration)
    And then only about 1/2 of what's left carries (or counts as) magical weaponry. It's usually not relevant vs. PCs anyway.

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    Default Re: Dragonfury Disciple, take II (PEACH)

    I sugest listing skills the old fashioned way. It just feels kinda lazy the way you did it.

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    Default Re: Dragonfury Disciple, take II (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by IronFist View Post
    I sugest listing skills the old fashioned way. It just feels kinda lazy the way you did it.
    Ok, I'll bite.

    What are the "lazy" descriptions that you identify ?


    [EDIT]: Are the skills the only issue as far as you can tell?

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    Default Re: Dragonfury Disciple, take II (PEACH)

    The fact that you listed them by exclusion, when the norm is to list them by inclusion.

    Plus, your route leaves questions...

    Do DFDs get Iajatsu Focus? Lucid Dreaming? Handle Humanoid? Change Shape? Do they get Scry as a class skill? How about a random skill from a 3rd party book?

    There's a reason you should list what they get and what they don't. Imagine I was to write a class, and gave them a list of bonus feats that went "they may take any feat as a bonus feat except the ones on this list", and then wrote out a list of a hundred+ feats.

    Or if, instead of Fighter feats getting the [Fighter Bonus Feat] tag, every other feat had the [Not a Fighter Bonus Feat] tag.

    Seriously, nonsi, I'll just mention this again; the tables and class information are displayed the way they are because that's what works. Tables are for quick look-up, which is actually easier if you only have 1 ~ 2 extra columns (one for most of the class features, and a few for quick number look-ups, like AC bonus, number of invocations known, or the like.)

    Only the headers are bold in tables because it looks ugly and distracts your eyes; the same reason that words should not be colored (except for, potentially, section headers.) The function of bold emphasis is to draw the eye, making it singularly bad for table look-ups.

    Skills are listed out inclusively in alphabetical order so that you don't have to cross-reference something else to see what skills you can take, and to more easily see whether or not you can qualify for a feat or prestige class.

    The grade of invocations you can access should not be in your column of invocations known. Stick it in the Special Features column, where it doesn't break up the visual progression.

    This might sound like piddly stuff, but making the presentation of your class nice is like dressing up when going on a blind date; sure, you might be a great person on the inside, but if you go there looking like a slob, you've made a poor impression. I actually find that your formatting gives me a headache, but then again I'm a stickler for clear formatting.

    As for class features, I'd suggest going through and smacking everything with the mechanical rigor stick. For example, Assume Draconic Form needs to list out actions, duration, and so on and so forth, because not everyone has access to PHB II.

    Draconic Senses... should write everything out neatly and explicitly. It is a bad sign if, when reading your class for the first time, you have to constantly glance up and down the document.

    Assume Draconic Form should be clearly written out as something along the lines of:

    "At 4th level, their Draconic Form improves for the first time. They gain a +2 Enhancement bonus to Charisma and a pair of claws, dealing 1d4 damage each as a primary natural weapon. In addition, they <insert full rules for Gliding and Limited Flight>"

    For each upgrade. You also need to be explicit as to what parts of Draconic Form you can suppress; could I choose to suppress everything but the Strength bonus?

    You shouldn't be listing out Frightful Presence as Frightful Presence (Attack); you should give that particular ability a different name, because one of the core tenets of 3.5 is that classes that each get an ability that has the same name, it works the same each time.

    Also, by default, Frightful Presence does not have a standard range or duration; the duration and radius have to be defined whenever a class gains the ability. It's a wrapper, not a method @CS Nerd.

    The breath weapon is also ill-defined. You say that it is a fiery breath weapon, but you never actually say that it deals fire damage by default. Unless the intent was that it deals untyped damage, in which case you still need to explicitly state that the damage type is, well, untyped.

    True Dragon Form also is really, really ambiguous. I suggest going to your copy of the PHB II and saying that they are considered to be under the effects of a Dragonshape spell, except that they can choose any Adult dragon as their chosen shape.

    In other words, they can decide to, when entering Draconic Form, trade out their character sheet for that of an Adult dragon, and gain 150 THP. You could put in a provision that they can still use their Invocations normally, and apply their Breath effects to their new body's breath weapon.

    Speaking of Breath Weapons... why is yours so weak? You do realize that a 20th level DFD's breath weapon is weaker, damage-wise, than the breath weapon of a Very Young Red Dragon? Which is CR 5? The DFA's breath weapon was at-will because that's the only way you can keep up. Also, feats that enhance breath weapons get in the way of you buying feats to enhance your natural weapons, meaning that you are stuck being good at one and not the other.

    So I'd say that you could make the base damage [level] dice, and then Powerful Exhalation could double that.
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    Default Re: Dragonfury Disciple, take II (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by nonsi View Post
    The intent was to bold all class features, to create a nice visual segregation. I just left out two 1st level features by mistake.
    "Breath Effect" is intentionally not bolded, because it's easy to spot anyway and this makes things easier on my eyes.
    Well it's your class. The in-table bolding drives me crazy.

    - AFAIK, the only globally inherent draconic (Su) ability is breath weapon. And since the character already had the breath weapon of the dragon he transformed into, and since the DFD's breath weapon damage exceeds true dragons' damage output, simply use the character's regular damage output.
    - Alternate Form - I'd rule out against this one, because the whole idea of this class is turning into dragons, not other humanoids.
    - Racially inherent (Ex/Sp), I'd say yes.
    - Spells - no way.
    - Natural Attacks: by all means yes, they get the better of both worlds from their form, size and class abilities.
    - Physical stats: the better between racial & size change.
    Does Constitution count? It wasn't listed.

    Also all those things should be made explicit.

    1. Size bonuses are size bonuses, even if mild.
    2. Posing as a true dragon (and more that one type - think of the potential strategic value) when convenient.
    These things can be done in a level-appropriate fashion if you just put bonuses in. Right now the mechanic encourages getting a cold breath weapon so you can turn into as large as a dragon as possible (since your breath weapon is useless, you get no spells, and every relevant stat otherwise scales off your age category). The mechanic you appear to want to encourage is "hulk out like a dragon and become a flurry of claws and fire", which is much better encouraged via a shapeshift-style effect. Something along the line of gaining Dragon type, getting +X Str, +Y Con, powering up the breath weapon, and small bennies based on dragon type.

    3. Opponents tend to take an "adult" dragon lightly. This could make them lower their guard.
    This is a) a poor rationalization, because a dude who transforms into an 'adult' dragon is still a dude that turns into a dragon, and that's a level 18 class feature that no one will scoff at. and b) it's a rationalization around the dissonance. Even if that were true, which I seriously wouldn't roll with, being an 'adult dragon' with 'wyrm invocations' just doesn't make no sense.

    I'm suspecting that you might have missed out on the added Con-bonus dice to breath weapon damage.
    Now that I look at the ability again, it looks like I read it wrong. I figured that was an ability that scaled your breath weapon if you multiclassed (up to Con-Mod in dice), but that basically doubles the breath weapon. I'm much happier with that, but why not just make it "1d6/lvl", since the math comes out (basically) the same?

    I'd make powerful exhalation automatic (though perhaps scale it in differently) since you really do need that damage boost to breath weapon competent post-10.

    How much would you make it ?
    ER maybe 2 per level, scaling up to immunity somewhere. AC 3 + 1/2 lvl, preferentially.

    Not entirely true.
    Vermin & (Dire) Animal & Dinosaur types never bypass DR #/magic, categorically. (not entirely sure about Magical Beast & Aberration)
    And then only about 1/2 of what's left carries (or counts as) magical weaponry. It's usually not relevant vs. PCs anyway.
    At the levels that you're getting DR magic, those creatures are either killer poison assassins and ignore DR or deal so much damage as closet trolls that DR greater than your hit dice is basically useless. Also, by the time you have DR/magic you also have flight and can kite them into oblivion.
    Last edited by Just to Browse; 2013-09-12 at 05:32 PM.

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    Default Re: Dragonfury Disciple, take II (PEACH)

    .
    Quote Originally Posted by Amechra View Post
    The grade of invocations you can access should not be in your column of invocations known. Stick it in the Special Features column, where it doesn't break up the visual progression.
    I tried that and it was terrible, so I found a middle ground that I think will work.


    Quote Originally Posted by Amechra View Post
    As for class features, I'd suggest going through and smacking everything with the mechanical rigor stick. For example, Assume Draconic Form needs to list out actions, duration, and so on and so forth, because not everyone has access to PHB II.
    Ok, action = done. I noted limitless duration.


    Quote Originally Posted by Amechra View Post
    Draconic Senses... should write everything out neatly and explicitly. It is a bad sign if, when reading your class for the first time, you have to constantly glance up and down the document.
    Lowlight Vision, Darkvision & Blind Sense are all core. If I have no intentions of changing the way they work then what’s the point?
    Anyway, I linked to the proper descriptions in the SRD.


    Quote Originally Posted by Amechra View Post
    Assume Draconic Form should be clearly written out as something along the lines of:

    "At 4th level, their Draconic Form improves for the first time. They gain a +2 Enhancement bonus to Charisma and a pair of claws, dealing 1d4 damage each as a primary natural weapon. In addition, they <insert full rules for Gliding and Limited Flight>"
    Done.


    Quote Originally Posted by Amechra View Post
    For each upgrade. You also need to be explicit as to what parts of Draconic Form you can suppress; could I choose to suppress everything but the Strength bonus?
    If and when convenient, a DFD can independently decrease/disable any aspect of his Draconic Form without hindering any of the other aspects”.
    How can I be any clearer than that?
    But I think Draconic form should be all or nothing.


    Quote Originally Posted by Amechra View Post
    You shouldn't be listing out Frightful Presence as Frightful Presence (Attack); you should give that particular ability a different name, because one of the core tenets of 3.5 is that classes that each get an ability that has the same name, it works the same each time.
    Two examples from the Knight class:
    1. Armor mastery (medium) vs. Armor mastery (heave). They do roughly the same thing, but the abilities apply to different equipment. And still, looking at the table, you’ll never forget that this one does.
    2. Shield ally vs. Improved Shield ally. This pair is definitely not clearer than the former.


    Quote Originally Posted by Amechra View Post
    Also, by default, Frightful Presence does not have a standard range or duration; the duration and radius have to be defined whenever a class gains the ability. It's a wrapper, not a method @CS Nerd.
    I’ll do that.
    I nixed Frightful Presence altogether and just let it function normally in true dragon form.
    This will make it both more potent and conform to core (it’s also not fair that a DFD should beat true dragons to the punch).


    Quote Originally Posted by Amechra View Post
    The breath weapon is also ill-defined. You say that it is a fiery breath weapon, but you never actually say that it deals fire damage by default. Unless the intent was that it deals untyped damage, in which case you still need to explicitly state that the damage type is, well, untyped.
    Somewhat of a nitpick, but ok.


    Quote Originally Posted by Amechra View Post
    True Dragon Form also is really, really ambiguous. I suggest going to your copy of the PHB II and saying that they are considered to be under the effects of a Dragonshape spell, except that they can choose any Adult dragon as their chosen shape.
    I made it “can choose any dragon color and age category with HD up to their DFD class level”.
    This way a DFD can become a huge red dragon at 19th. 

    Quote Originally Posted by Amechra View Post
    In other words, they can decide to, when entering Draconic Form, trade out their character sheet for that of an Adult dragon, and gain 150 THP. You could put in a provision that they can still use their Invocations normally, and apply their Breath effects to their new body's breath weapon.
    And that they still use their class derived breath weapon damage, which is superior to the true dragon’s damage output.
    I just don’t get where the 150 THP come from (as in “what have I done to deserve this?”).


    Quote Originally Posted by Amechra View Post
    Speaking of Breath Weapons... why is yours so weak? You do realize that a 20th level DFD's breath weapon is weaker, damage-wise, than the breath weapon of a Very Young Red Dragon? Which is CR 5? The DFA's breath weapon was at-will because that's the only way you can keep up. Also, feats that enhance breath weapons get in the way of you buying feats to enhance your natural weapons, meaning that you are stuck being good at one and not the other.

    So I'd say that you could make the base damage [level] dice, and then Powerful Exhalation could double that.
    Either you missed out on something or I did (could it be that “I shot myself in the leg” without noticing?), because I really don’t see how [10 + Con-bonus] d10 damage dice count as less than 4d10.
    Also, a character doesn’t have to spend his level-based feats of his breath weapon. 7 combat feats over 20 levels of which (3 (or 4, if human) by 6th) is not a bad deal.
    .

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    Default Re: Dragonfury Disciple, take II (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Just to Browse View Post
    Well it's your class. The in-table bolding drives me crazy.
    Ok. It’s gone.


    Quote Originally Posted by Just to Browse View Post
    being an 'adult dragon' with 'wyrm invocations' just doesn't make no sense.
    It’s not an 'adult dragon' with 'wyrm invocations'. It’s ‘Disciple of draconic powers that gained the ability to transform into a true dragon, but just happens to be limited by his experiience’.
    Those are not the same things.


    Quote Originally Posted by Just to Browse View Post
    Now that I look at the ability again, it looks like I read it wrong. I figured that was an ability that scaled your breath weapon if you multiclassed (up to Con-Mod in dice), but that basically doubles the breath weapon. I'm much happier with that, but why not just make it "1d6/lvl", since the math comes out (basically) the same?
    Because by the time Con is not enough to catch up, breath effects and metabreath feats are more than enough to compensate.


    Quote Originally Posted by Just to Browse View Post
    I'd make powerful exhalation automatic (though perhaps scale it in differently) since you really do need that damage boost to breath weapon competent post-10.
    Level x2 with no payoffs is way beyond my comfort zone.


    Quote Originally Posted by Just to Browse View Post
    ER maybe 2 per level, scaling up to immunity somewhere. AC 3 + 1/2 lvl, preferentially.
    Done.
    Immunity is gained when taking on True Dragon Form. For the other damage types in the DFD's repertiore, resistance should suffice.


    Quote Originally Posted by Just to Browse View Post
    At the levels that you're getting DR magic, those creatures are either killer poison assassins and ignore DR or deal so much damage as closet trolls that DR greater than your hit dice is basically useless. Also, by the time you have DR/magic you also have flight and can kite them into oblivion.
    I’m not sure which one of us is more "scores more points" in the grand scheme of things, but dragons gain DR x/magic, so it’s thematically appropriate.
    Even if it’s useful only 20% of the time, I’m OK with it.

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    Default Re: Dragonfury Disciple, take II (PEACH)

    Whoops, I read the HD column instead of the breath weapon column by accident... and didn't notice the Con bonus dice to your breath weapon because it is off hanging out in it's own sentence.

    I do have to reiterate that your formatting is terrible; it actually really doesn't matter whether or not you like the formatting, since the formatting isn't for the author. It's for the reader.

    It tells the reader that you put love and care into this class, and that you want them to see how beautiful it is. You already know how great your class is; quite frankly, if I'm homebrewing for myself, I don't even use full words. But if I'm making something for someone else, I put in a lot of effort to pretty it up. I mean, you don't give people presents in reused lunch bags, no matter how economical that is.

    Personally, I find that not writing out "At Nth level, they gain Low-Light vision, allowing them to bla bla bla" gives the general impression that you don't care enough to make your mechanics as clear as possible.

    Plus, it stops stuff like my confusion as to how many breath weapon dice there are, or what exactly is an "aspect" of your Draconic Form (I read it as "you can pick and choose which of these spoilers you get benefits out of, but you get all of them if you enter True Dragon Form", but I take it that that isn't the case. Also, you have major tag breakage in the wings spoiler.)

    I'm just going to leave this here; use it if you want, or just ignore it:

    Breath Weapon (Su): Hey, a dragon's got one, right?

    A Dragonfury Disciple of at least 1st level gains a breath weapon, which deals Xd10 Fire damage in a 15' cone, where X is equal to half their class level + their Constitution modifier, to maximum number of dice equal to their class level. Much like a True Dragon, they must wait 1d4 rounds before they can use this breath weapon again.

    At 7th, 13th, and 19th levels, the range of their breath weapon doubles.
    ---------------

    You can move your big ol' table of how breath effects alter your damage dice and the shape of your line breath weapons into the Breath Effects themselves; after all, all you really need to do is the above.

    Now, I'll be off; my formatting gripes aren't being entirely constructive, so I think I'll excuse me. PM me if I'm wrong about that.
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    Default Re: Dragonfury Disciple, take II (PEACH)

    I'll echo (partly) Amechra's sentiment here. While I really don't give a rat's *** for formatting, writing abilities so they're clear is a big deal. I could go either way on skills, and even including a table kind of feels optional for me, but well-written abilities are probably more important than balanced ones 'cause you can't even play with abilities you don't understand.

    Quote Originally Posted by nonsi View Post
    It’s not an 'adult dragon' with 'wyrm invocations'. It’s ‘Disciple of draconic powers that gained the ability to transform into a true dragon, but just happens to be limited by his experiience’.
    Those are not the same things.
    Those are names, and that's how they're classified. Your powers are "wyrm" powers, which sounds awesome, but your transformation is an "adult" (or even "young adult" transformation). Whether you want that to be true or not, a player who rolls up DFD will always associate his transformation with "[Age Category] [Type] Dragons", and just like if your type was "tomato" it would sound lame instead of "fire", the words "adult", "young adult" and "juvenile" will sound lame to a player.

    But this isn't mechanical, and I lose steam on non-mechanical things quickly, so if you don't want to change it then I ain't going to pressure you.


    Because by the time Con is not enough to catch up, breath effects and metabreath feats are more than enough to compensate.
    A) Getting +10 Con modifier is normal by level 20. Con will probably be ahead the whole time. B) 1dX/lvl is very weak at high levels. C) I'm pretty sure there's only 1 damage-amping metabreath feat, and it has ridiculous damage. I'd find it hard to allow that on anybody.

    Level x2 with no payoffs is way beyond my comfort zone.
    The payoff is you have to have be single-classed in the double-digits. In fact, the full-round action cost and long wait time actually just encourages players to stack metabreath feats as much as possible and will probably cause more problems in the long run.

    Math: You need to wade through hordes of level 6 creatures (lvl - 6) by the time you have this weapon. The average HP of these monsters is ~70, so if you ignore both reflex saves and any form of damage mitigation, you still need to deal 13d10 damage to bring them down on average. A more reasonable breath weapon will be dealing d8's or d6's since the enemy likely has immunities and resistances you need to circumvent (you're facing level 12 encounters, I doubt they're playing softball) and should be saving against your ability ~25% of the time, so you're looking at the DFD not even being able to dispatch mooks unless it only wants to breath once per combat.

    At level 20, this problem is even worse. The average CR 14 opponent has ~280 HP, and a 2d10/lvl breath weapon deals only 220 average damage not including saves, resistances, or immunities.

    And this doesn't even take into account tactical difficulties like the fact that you're breathing all over your friends if they're in melee, or the face that if you're in melee you won't be able to hit every enemy at once. The breath weapon seriously needs buffs.

    Immunity is gained when taking on True Dragon Form. For the other damage types in the DFD's repertiore, resistance should suffice.
    In D&D, level-appropriate damage scales quadratically (as demonstrated above), so the linear rate of ER gain falls off as you go up in levels. It should either go up higher or just flat-out become immunity.

    I’m not sure which one of us is more "scores more points" in the grand scheme of things, but dragons gain DR x/magic, so it’s thematically appropriate.
    Even if it’s useful only 20% of the time, I’m OK with it.
    They get five times as much DR, and even for them it's not useful at all because it's just DR/magic, but since it's so weak it doesn't really change the quality of the class. I'm only really concerned about the breath weapon.
    Last edited by Just to Browse; 2013-09-13 at 08:06 PM.

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    Default Re: Dragonfury Disciple, take II (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Amechra View Post
    Personally, I find that not writing out "At Nth level, they gain Low-Light vision, allowing them to bla bla bla" gives the general impression that you don't care enough to make your mechanics as clear as possible.
    Fair enough.


    Quote Originally Posted by Amechra View Post
    I'm just going to leave this here; use it if you want, or just ignore it:
    I don’t have a tendency to ignore good tips.


    Quote Originally Posted by Amechra View Post
    Breath Weapon (Su): Hey, a dragon's got one, right?

    A Dragonfury Disciple of at least 1st level gains a breath weapon, which deals Xd10 Fire damage in a 15' cone, where X is equal to half their class level + their Constitution modifier, to maximum number of dice equal to their class level. Much like a True Dragon, they must wait 1d4 rounds before they can use this breath weapon again.
    Done.


    Quote Originally Posted by Amechra View Post
    At 7th, 13th, and 19th levels, the range of their breath weapon doubles.
    This might be misread “x4 at 13th and x8 19th, so I’ll make it “At 7th, 13th, and 19th levels, the range of their breath weapon doubles, triples and quadruples respectively”.


    Quote Originally Posted by Amechra View Post
    You can move your big ol' table of how breath effects alter your damage dice and the shape of your line breath weapons into the Breath Effects themselves; after all, all you really need to do is the above.
    Done.


    Quote Originally Posted by Amechra View Post
    Now, I'll be off; my formatting gripes aren't being entirely constructive, so I think I'll excuse me. PM me if I'm wrong about that.
    Actually, all is constructive other then the “full words” stuff.
    This is not a commercial document, so if the readers get what DFD/Con/Su mean, then I don’t really see any problem with those acronyms.

    Also, I take it that you don't have anything more to comment on mechanical aspect?
    If you do, please don’t hold back.

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    Default Re: Dragonfury Disciple, take II (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Just to Browse View Post
    A) Getting +10 Con modifier is normal by level 20. Con will probably be ahead the whole time.
    A player could put all his eggs on Con and get there, but this will come at the expense of other things.


    Quote Originally Posted by Just to Browse View Post
    B) 1dX/lvl is very weak at high levels.
    Lingering Breath & Enduring Breath mesh nicely together in producing prolonged damage repetitions.


    Quote Originally Posted by Just to Browse View Post
    C) I'm pretty sure there's only 1 damage-amping metabreath feat, and it has ridiculous damage. I'd find it hard to allow that on anybody.
    Is this list partial? Because I don’t recognize anything glaringly problematic in it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Just to Browse View Post
    The payoff is you have to have be single-classed in the double-digits. In fact, the full-round action cost and long wait time actually just encourages players to stack metabreath feats as much as possible and will probably cause more problems in the long run.
    1. What kind of long term problems are you referring to?
    2. Recover Breath feat mitigates the waiting periods.



    Quote Originally Posted by Just to Browse View Post
    Math: You need to wade through hordes of level 6 creatures (lvl - 6) by the time you have this weapon. The average HP of these monsters is ~70, so if you ignore both reflex saves and any form of damage mitigation, you still need to deal 13d10 damage to bring them down on average. A more reasonable breath weapon will be dealing d8's or d6's since the enemy likely has immunities and resistances you need to circumvent (you're facing level 12 encounters, I doubt they're playing softball) and should be saving against your ability ~25% of the time, so you're looking at the DFD not even being able to dispatch mooks unless it only wants to breath once per combat.
    Again, Lingering Breath & Enduring Breath can keep doing the damage for you when you’re free to do other things.
    I’m guessing that Ability Focus will reduce saves to ~15%.
    Recover Breath will probably allow a second use in combat.
    And since Essences applied to breath weapon are not invocations, nothing stops you from using them in conjunction – leading to potentially devastating effects.


    Quote Originally Posted by Just to Browse View Post
    And this doesn't even take into account tactical difficulties like the fact that you're breathing all over your friends if they're in melee, or the face that if you're in melee you won't be able to hit every enemy at once. The breath weapon seriously needs buffs.
    Shape Breath could go a long way here, and there’s also Energy Bullet that allows no saves.


    Quote Originally Posted by Just to Browse View Post
    In D&D, level-appropriate damage scales quadratically (as demonstrated above), so the linear rate of ER gain falls off as you go up in levels. It should either go up higher or just flat-out become immunity.
    Putting immunities aside for a moment, how would you go about it with ER?

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    Default Re: Dragonfury Disciple, take II (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by nonsi View Post
    A player could put all his eggs on Con and get there, but this will come at the expense of other things.
    14 Con, +2 racial, +2 DFD, +6 item, +5 from tomes = 29. Spend 1 point of your 5 upon level-up. Even if you can't get tomes with your ridiculous monies, you'll still be fine up to around level 16 where the game goes to crazytown anyways.

    Lingering Breath & Enduring Breath mesh nicely together in producing prolonged damage repetitions.
    I'm not doing jumping jacks over half damage, and the wording on enduring breath seems... incredibly confusing. But while these are nice, you're going to have to take them both if you want to be moderately good at clearing minions.

    Is this list partial? Because I don’t recognize anything glaringly problematic in it.
    Maximize Breath doubles your damage and pushes your cooldown into the "1/encounter ability" range (netting you effectively 1 standard action). That and quicken breath are the most toxic to player agency. If I had my druthers, metabreath feats would be like ambush feats.

    1. What kind of long term problems are you referring to?
    2. Recover Breath feat mitigates the waiting periods.
    Players will see the wait time on their breath weapon and think "well I'll only use this once per combat anyways, I might as well pump it as hard as I can and then just give it a 5-minute recharge". And recover breath is incredibly weak, no one will waste one of their 10 feats on it.

    Again, Lingering Breath & Enduring Breath can keep doing the damage for you when you’re free to do other things.
    I’m guessing that Ability Focus will reduce saves to ~15%.
    Recover Breath will probably allow a second use in combat.
    And since Essences applied to breath weapon are not invocations, nothing stops you from using them in conjunction – leading to potentially devastating effects.
    So if I drop 3+ feats and my high-level invocations on only breath weapons, I can start clearing creatures that will be showing up in armies over the course of 2 rounds?

    The player should not be required to minmax their breath weapon in order to be decent at clearing minions. He needs to be at least competent.

    Shape Breath could go a long way here, and there’s also Energy Bullet that allows no saves.
    I don't know what Energy Bullet is, but even with the additional (remember we had to spend 2-3 feats just to make the breath weapon damage decent) feat of your limited supply, you're probably still breathing all over your friends because they need to be in melee and you can only shoot lines and cones.

    Putting immunities aside for a moment, how would you go about it with ER?
    I'd personally make a chart on the side, like with invocations. 2x level up until lvl ~6, then 3xlevel more till ~11, then 4x till around lvl 15, and 5x the rest of the way.

    In fact, I'd probably do this up monk-style and put charts on the side for AC, ER, DR, Invocations, and breath weapon (if you scale it non-linearly). That might clutter it up too much though...
    Last edited by Just to Browse; 2013-09-14 at 04:44 AM.

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    tongue Re: Dragonfury Disciple, take II (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Just to Browse View Post
    I'd personally make a chart on the side, like with invocations. 2x level up until lvl ~6, then 3xlevel more till ~11, then 4x till around lvl 15, and 5x the rest of the way.

    In fact, I'd probably do this up monk-style and put charts on the side for AC, ER, DR, Invocations, and breath weapon (if you scale it non-linearly). That might clutter it up too much though...
    Excuse me, but I'm getting confusing messages over here. I just got smacked on the head by Amechra for developing a habit of using too many columns


    Quote Originally Posted by Just to Browse View Post
    14 Con, +2 racial, +2 DFD, +6 item, +5 from tomes = 29. Spend 1 point of your 5 upon level-up. Even if you can't get tomes with your ridiculous monies, you'll still be fine up to around level 16 where the game goes to crazytown anyways.
    Nice catch with the tomes, but you're also assuming that the character will always have maximized Bear's Endurance on. Lose that and you're only covered until 8th.


    Quote Originally Posted by Just to Browse View Post
    I'm not doing jumping jacks over half damage
    I'd hardly call relying on but two game supplements "doing jumping jacks".


    Quote Originally Posted by Just to Browse View Post
    and the wording on enduring breath seems... incredibly confusing
    Actually, I don't really see any difference between that one an Clinging Breath feat.


    Quote Originally Posted by Just to Browse View Post
    But while these are nice, you're going to have to take them both if you want to be moderately good at clearing minions.
    Yes, but this one goes in all directions.
    A warrior is not gonna "make the curve" without taking PA.
    Mages won't hog the action economy without the mandatory metamagic feat combo.
    No druid in existence would ever pass up Natural Spell.

    Also, no one said a player is bound to being the slayer of all mooks.
    There's also enough in this class to be a melee butcher, a party face or a utilitarian. I don't want a single character to ace them all (which will happen if the class comes 2/3 the way out of the box).


    Quote Originally Posted by Just to Browse View Post
    Maximize Breath doubles your damage and pushes your cooldown into the "1/encounter ability" range (netting you effectively 1 standard action). That and quicken breath are the most toxic to player agency. If I had my druthers, metabreath feats would be like ambush feats.
    Ok, but an adventuring party members are usually not the ones who layout the scenes, so ambushing is not a routine scenario anyway.


    Quote Originally Posted by Just to Browse View Post
    So if I drop 3+ feats and my high-level invocations on only breath weapons, I can start clearing creatures that will be showing up in armies over the course of 2 rounds?

    The player should not be required to minmax their breath weapon in order to be decent at clearing minions. He needs to be at least competent.
    Players should also not get everything handed to them on a silver platter, otherwise where's the part of building your character ?


    Quote Originally Posted by Just to Browse View Post
    I don't know what Energy Bullet is, but even with the additional (remember we had to spend 2-3 feats just to make the breath weapon damage decent) feat of your limited supply, you're probably still breathing all over your friends because they need to be in melee and you can only shoot lines and cones.
    Energy Bullet is a ranged touch attack breath effect detailed in the OP.
    Also, don't sneer at Shape Breath. The ability to shape any damage type into cone or line allows a lot of maneuverability.

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    Default Re: Dragonfury Disciple, take II (PEACH)

    Just as an FYI, doubling always stacks as follows:

    Two doublings is a tripling, and three are a quadrupling, etc.

    And I do have a few mechanical gripes , but a lot of them are closer to a "that's not how I'd do this class" than anything else. Like, I personally wouldn't use a limited times per day thing with Powerful Exhalation. I'd go with something like, I don't know, you're Fatigued after you use it, with the "at-will" replacing that.

    I also would sit down, trash all the Breath Effects, and start from scratch, because most of them are either garbage or too good for the level you get them. I'd start with a basis of Eldritch Essences, and go from there.

    I also wouldn't have transforming into a true dragon in there, if only because capping it at your HD means your forms are all between CR 10 and 14 (just going by Core dragons) which is... less than impressive at 18th level.
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    Default Re: Dragonfury Disciple, take II (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Amechra View Post
    Just as an FYI, doubling always stacks as follows:

    Two doublings is a tripling, and three are a quadrupling, etc.
    Yes, I know this is the rule for damage, but I've never encountered it regarding ranges.


    Quote Originally Posted by Amechra View Post
    ... I personally wouldn't use a limited times per day thing with Powerful Exhalation. I'd go with something like, I don't know, you're Fatigued after you use it, with the "at-will" replacing that.
    This could definitely work as well, but wouldn't it be a harsher penalty than x3 / day cap? (the DFD has no self healing powers)


    Quote Originally Posted by Amechra View Post
    I also would sit down, trash all the Breath Effects, and start from scratch, because most of them are either garbage or too good for the level you get them. I'd start with a basis of Eldritch Essences, and go from there.
    I would, if the inspiration had struck me, but I'm not up to the task right now of reinventing breath effects as essence invocations.
    I'm not one who'd reinvent something unless I feel I have an improvement to bring to the gaming table and I don't see one right now.
    Furthermore, you can't apply more than a single essence at a time, which would be hitting it with a serious nerf bat.


    Quote Originally Posted by Amechra View Post
    I also wouldn't have transforming into a true dragon in there, if only because capping it at your HD means your forms are all between CR 10 and 14 (just going by Core dragons) which is... less than impressive at 18th level.
    Yes, but with far superior breath weapon, invocations and PC-grade WBL.
    If you count breath weapon immunity, elevated stats, size increase and racial traits ((Ex) and (Sp)), it's far better than any one boost to Draconic Form I could imagine (and you have access to multiple dragon types).

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    Default Re: Dragonfury Disciple, take II (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by nonsi View Post
    Excuse me, but I'm getting confusing messages over here. I just got smacked on the head by Amechra for developing a habit of using too many columns
    A monk-number is fine. Amechra uses two columns in 90% of his homebrew anyways, so he can't even complain about 2 or 3.

    Nice catch with the tomes, but you're also assuming that the character will always have maximized Bear's Endurance on. Lose that and you're only covered until 8th.
    +6 Amulet of Health.

    I'd hardly call relying on but two game supplements "doing jumping jacks".
    I meant to tell you I wasn't excited. Requiring two rare character resources to do something nominal is not exciting.

    Yes, but this one goes in all directions.
    A warrior is not gonna "make the curve" without taking PA.
    Mages won't hog the action economy without the mandatory metamagic feat combo.
    No druid in existence would ever pass up Natural Spell.
    Right, and having power attack for warrior's is terrible because it's a tax in order to be competent. Mages do not need to take metamagic feats in order to be competent, which is why they're popular. Druids do not need to take natural spell in order to be competent, which is also why they're popular. Having a feat that makes you good at something does not OK having feats that are required for you to do something.

    Also, no one said a player is bound to being the slayer of all mooks.
    There's also enough in this class to be a melee butcher, a party face or a utilitarian. I don't want a single character to ace them all (which will happen if the class comes 2/3 the way out of the box).
    It's not "all mooks", it's "mooks so far off the RNG they cannot hurt you in groups of 40". These are creatures that the Cleave tree was designed for. A "slayer of all mooks" is what happens when you get a decent breath weapon and then take clinging breath, lingering breath, maximize breath, etc. And that's OK because you're spending rare character resources on it.

    Ok, but an adventuring party members are usually not the ones who layout the scenes, so ambushing is not a routine scenario anyway.
    -_- bro... ambush feats.

    Players should also not get everything handed to them on a silver platter, otherwise where's the part of building your character ?
    You are equating "getting to actually kill CR - 6 monsters who autofail saves in 1 attack" with "silver platter", which is wrong. This is not giving the DFD uberdamage that kills all the things, it's giving them enough damage to ever want to use their breath weapon in a combat situation.

    [quote]Energy Bullet is a ranged touch attack breath effect detailed in the OP.

    Also, don't sneer at Shape Breath. The ability to shape any damage type into cone or line allows a lot of maneuverability.
    Bah, who needs spoilers But this doesn't solve the problem. The goal is to have minion-clearing potential, and energy bullet does the opposite of that.

    And shape breath doesn't allow you to pass over an ally in melee. If you're using a line, you're not actually hitting minions because you're just firing in a line. If you're using a cone, you might exclude one ally total but if you're using the breath weapon in a minion fight (which is the original assumption) then allies in melee are almost guaranteed to be at least flanked.

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    Default Re: Dragonfury Disciple, take II (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Just to Browse View Post
    Right, and having power attack for warrior's is terrible because it's a tax in order to be competent. Mages do not need to take metamagic feats in order to be competent, which is why they're popular. Druids do not need to take natural spell in order to be competent, which is also why they're popular. Having a feat that makes you good at something does not OK having feats that are required for you to do something.
    Ok, let's go to pose #12 for a moment.
    You were referring to 13d10 vs ~70HP worth of mooks.
    But by level 13, a DFD already got his Powerful Exhalation, so this immediately becomes 26d10.
    Now they gotta have some resistances to have a prayer of surviving.
    That's before feats, breath effects or invocations are ever brought to the equation.
    Now, if the DM routinely sends armies of mooks vs. the party more than #3 / day, then maybe he should have his head examined.
    Same goes for level 20.

    Maybe you're seeing something that I don't, and don't bite my head of on this one, but I'm getting the impression that you're forgetting that D&D is a game of collaborative effort via teamwork.


    Quote Originally Posted by Just to Browse View Post
    It's not "all mooks", it's "mooks so far off the RNG they cannot hurt you in groups of 40". These are creatures that the Cleave tree was designed for. A "slayer of all mooks" is what happens when you get a decent breath weapon and then take clinging breath, lingering breath, maximize breath, etc. And that's OK because you're spending rare character resources on it.
    Take a group of half optimized warriors (any). I'm not sure they'll be "mooks so far off the RNG they cannot hurt you in groups of 40".



    Quote Originally Posted by Just to Browse View Post
    -_- bro... ambush feats.
    Got it. I'll check them out.


    Quote Originally Posted by Just to Browse View Post
    The goal is to have minion-clearing potential, and energy bullet does the opposite of that.
    A DFD can fly directly overhead of his party and rain down breath attack from above (remember that cones & lines are not "pie-slices" & "walls" with infinite height), so now you have the vertical dimension to play with.



    Quote Originally Posted by Just to Browse View Post
    but if you're using the breath weapon in a minion fight (which is the original assumption) then allies in melee are almost guaranteed to be at least flanked.
    It's a T3 class, not T1.
    I never designed it to have all the answers.
    It's enough for me that the DFD surpasses the DFA in just about everything.

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    Default Re: Dragonfury Disciple, take II (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by nonsi View Post
    Ok, let's go to pose #12 for a moment.
    You were referring to 13d10 vs ~70HP worth of mooks.
    But by level 13, a DFD already got his Powerful Exhalation, so this immediately becomes 26d10.
    Now they gotta have some resistances to have a prayer of surviving.
    That's before feats, breath effects or invocations are ever brought to the equation.
    Now, if the DM routinely sends armies of mooks vs. the party more than #3 / day, then maybe he should have his head examined.
    Same goes for level 20.
    Two levels ago, minions were laughing at him as then slowly ran him over. Two levels later, he now finally has a chance to kill those CR - 6 buggars (if he's not breathing on his allies and the enemies don't have resistance to something easy like fire) but only if they fail their reflex save. Woo! Add to this the fact that, as punishment for actually being able to kill minions, you're making his breath timer five rounds (longer than any normal combat).

    Maybe you're seeing something that I don't, and don't bite my head of on this one, but I'm getting the impression that you're forgetting that D&D is a game of collaborative effort via teamwork.
    This is the argument that gets brought up when people point out the fighter is bad. The wizard spending his turn to help you is indeed a thing, but it doesn't obviate the fact that the class is bad at its most commonly advertised schtick.

    Take a group of half optimized warriors (any). I'm not sure they'll be "mooks so far off the RNG they cannot hurt you in groups of 40".
    "half-optimized" != "Power attack, shock trooper". And I really hope your normal minions aren't designed to beat someone with extraordinary flight, because then they're definitely not minions.


    A DFD can fly directly overhead of his party and rain down breath attack from above (remember that cones & lines are not "pie-slices" & "walls" with infinite height), so now you have the vertical dimension to play with.
    That does not change the point. Either you are breathing in an area and probably have to hit your allies in melee because they're right next to at least one enemy, or you are shooting 1-2 enemies at a time and aren't actually clearing minions because you need to avoid hitting allies. Organic minion combats involve people getting swarmed by minions, and no manipulation of the cross-sectional area of cones is going to ignore the fact that your ally is standing in the middle of a crowd of goblins.


    It's a T3 class, not T1.
    I never designed it to have all the answers.
    It's enough for me that the DFD surpasses the DFA in just about everything.
    That's not how logic works. As it stands, players of this class will not actually want to clear minions for any reason except because it looks cool or they hyper-specialized in it. Everything that could be done as a minion-clearer can be done twice as well in another field (like tanking crowds, achieving objectives) and most players will probably use their breath weapon for semi-spammable crowd control. If that's what you want, then you can keep it, but the class feature designed for killing minions is bad at killing minions, and that's kind of a big deal.

    And you could give the DFA + 1d6 breath weapon, 1 bonus invocation, full BAB, an extra breath effect, and then call it "better than the DFA in every way" without actually having made the class good. Your class is far better than that fix, but saying it's better than a bad class is not a reason to stop working on it.
    Last edited by Just to Browse; 2013-09-15 at 02:45 PM.

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    Default Re: Dragonfury Disciple, take II (PEACH)

    No offense Nonsi, but why do you seem to be fighting back advice?

    They're giving you advice for a reason, and in all honesty. Tier 3?

    The class is about emulating and becoming a draconic being, it sounds a bit stronger than T3.

    How about you just listen to some advice bro? You seem to be jumping through hoops trying to avoid following it.
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    Default Re: Dragonfury Disciple, take II (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by NosferatuZodd View Post
    They're giving you advice for a reason, and in all honesty. Tier 3?

    The class is about emulating and becoming a draconic being, it sounds a bit stronger than T3.
    Fair enough.
    Low T2 could also work here.


    Quote Originally Posted by NosferatuZodd View Post
    How about you just listen to some advice bro? You seem to be jumping through hoops trying to avoid following it.
    It may appear like I want this class to be less awesome than it can possibly be, but that's not the case at all.

    This is definitely not another "people don't want fighters to have nice things" case.

    The way it is now, the DFD:
    1. Has all the abilities and features a Dragonborn Raptoran DFA can possibly have when taking the right Dragonborn aspect (sooner or to an elevated effect).
    2. Has a more powerful breath weapon (and to a longer range) than any official race-class-template combo I know of (including true dragons).
    3. Gets a plethora of features the above combo doesn't: Draconic Resolve (3 immunities, even if circumstantial), Draconic Longevity (yes, I know there's no mechanical advantage there, but it's a free bonus), +1 total Breath Effects, earlier access to some breath effect, multiple breath effect alternatives, elevated stats, solid nat. attacks, solid nat. armor (with no ASF or ACP), ER, DR, the best imaginable dragon-themed class skills list and (Ex) shapeshifting with flight. The only reason I didn't put Touch of Vitality in there, is because my rationale doesn't justify it as a draconic feature (still pondering on that one).

    If I'm off on any of the above, by all means, please let me know.

    Sure I want the DFD to be super awesome, but I also want it to be viable.
    I don't wan't it to be a class that DMs go over and say "yeah right :P".

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    Default Re: Dragonfury Disciple, take II (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Just to Browse View Post
    Two levels ago, minions were laughing at him as then slowly ran him over.
    Extraordinary effortless flight.


    Quote Originally Posted by Just to Browse View Post
    Two levels later, he now finally has a chance to kill those CR - 6 buggars (if he's not breathing on his allies and the enemies don't have resistance to something easy like fire) but only if they fail their reflex save.
    Acid, cold, electricity, sonic.
    A player is bound to take at least 2 of those by level 10 (I'd go for acid & sonic). Only 1/2 of that feature's resources for guaranteed effectiveness vs. 95% of the targets.


    Quote Originally Posted by Just to Browse View Post
    Woo! Add to this the fact that, as punishment for actually being able to kill minions, you're making his breath timer five rounds (longer than any normal combat).
    Some encounters are shorter and some are longer, but this seems a decent average to me.


    Quote Originally Posted by Just to Browse View Post
    This is the argument that gets brought up when people point out the fighter is bad.
    I'm not "people", I'm me. You saw the latest version of my Warrior.


    Quote Originally Posted by Just to Browse View Post
    "half-optimized" != "Power attack, shock trooper".
    Then what would you give a group of 6th/7th level fighters if not PA ?
    Would you strip them of feats altogether or just hand-pick feats that do next to nothing in combat?


    Quote Originally Posted by Just to Browse View Post
    And I really hope your normal minions aren't designed to beat someone with extraordinary flight, because then they're definitely not minions.
    Bows, low ceiling rooms/corridors etc.
    Yes, I know I'm shooting myself in the leg on the "Extraordinary effortless flight", but circumstance & strategy always play a role in changing the odds.


    Quote Originally Posted by Just to Browse View Post
    That does not change the point. Either you are breathing in an area and probably have to hit your allies in melee because they're right next to at least one enemy, or you are shooting 1-2 enemies at a time and aren't actually clearing minions because you need to avoid hitting allies. Organic minion combats involve people getting swarmed by minions, and no manipulation of the cross-sectional area of cones is going to ignore the fact that your ally is standing in the middle of a crowd of goblins.
    Fair enough.
    I could leech Lix-Lorn's Aura of Resistance, but how would that be any different than any other "you have to take it just to be viable" you mentioned ?


    Quote Originally Posted by Just to Browse View Post
    That's not how logic works. As it stands, players of this class will not actually want to clear minions for any reason except because it looks cool or they hyper-specialized in it.
    Both are legitimate in my eyes.


    Quote Originally Posted by Just to Browse View Post
    Everything that could be done as a minion-clearer can be done twice as well in another field (like tanking crowds, achieving objectives) and most players will probably use their breath weapon for semi-spammable crowd control. If that's what you want, then you can keep it, but the class feature designed for killing minions is bad at killing minions, and that's kind of a big deal.
    I see it as a class feature with multiple option.
    Why not let that players choose their path? Why make a certain choice a no-brainer?


    Quote Originally Posted by Just to Browse View Post
    And you could give the DFA + 1d6 breath weapon, 1 bonus invocation, full BAB, an extra breath effect, and then call it "better than the DFA in every way" without actually having made the class good. Your class is far better than that fix, but saying it's better than a bad class is not a reason to stop working on it.
    I'm not saying I'm done yet, but see my reply to NosferatuZodd.

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    Default Re: Dragonfury Disciple, take II (PEACH)

    All right, I'm done. So far this argument as been me asking you to buff an ability to it actually hurts minions normally and you replying with texas sharpshooter, slippery slope, and composition/division.

    If you think the class's breath weapon is fine, then go ahead and keep it, but if I ever played this class I would ignore the breath weapon damage and either load up on crowd control metabreath feats or be a full attacker. You are setting up DFD blasters for disappointment and failure the way the invocation school sets up invokers for failure.

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    Default Re: Dragonfury Disciple, take II (PEACH)

    Personally, I think that the numbers given for minions is kind of overblown in the examples above. It is true that hp and damage don't grow linearly over time in this game.

    On the other hand, how much HD a monster have relative to its CR seems to vary widely. As such, saying that a CR 14 encounter must have ~280 hp strikes me as simply off.

    A balor (CR 20) possesses 290 hp
    A pit fiend (CR 20) possesses 225 hp
    A titan (Cr 21) possesses 370 hp
    A solar (CR 23) possesses 209 hp
    A mithral golem (CR 21) possesses 238 hp

    On the other hand, lets look at CR 14
    A young adult gold dragon (CR 14) has 230 hp
    A werewolf lord (CR 14) has 132 hp
    An Astral Deva (CR 14) has 102 hp
    A Nalfanshee (CR 14) has 175 hp
    A Nightwing (CR 14) has 144 hp
    A Trumpet Archon (Cr 14) has 126 hp

    Mind you, there are exceptions to this rule (the tarrasque possesses almost 900 hp at CR 20 and Monstrous vermin that have high hp for their CR) but only dragons (which are notorious for being really strong for their CR) really seem to stand out among those I looked through.

    If you wanted to make any change to breath weapon damage, I would simply remove the cap. Raising Con modifier above +13 or so is pretty darn difficult and a few extra damage dice would increase your odds of taking out those minions.
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    Default Re: Dragonfury Disciple, take II (PEACH)

    I think the cap's there so you don't have a 7-8 d10 breath weapon at 1st level.

    Which is plain broken, no matter how you slice it.
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    Default Re: Dragonfury Disciple, take II (PEACH)

    Oh, right. Forgot about that. In that case, the breath is probably perfect as is.
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    Default Re: Dragonfury Disciple, take II (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Realms of Chaos View Post
    Personally, I think that the numbers given for minions is kind of overblown in the examples above. It is true that hp and damage don't grow linearly over time in this game.

    On the other hand, how much HD a monster have relative to its CR seems to vary widely. As such, saying that a CR 14 encounter must have ~280 hp strikes me as simply off.

    A balor (CR 20) possesses 290 hp
    A pit fiend (CR 20) possesses 225 hp
    A titan (Cr 21) possesses 370 hp
    A solar (CR 23) possesses 209 hp
    A mithral golem (CR 21) possesses 238 hp

    On the other hand, lets look at CR 14
    A young adult gold dragon (CR 14) has 230 hp
    A werewolf lord (CR 14) has 132 hp
    An Astral Deva (CR 14) has 102 hp
    A Nalfanshee (CR 14) has 175 hp
    A Nightwing (CR 14) has 144 hp
    A Trumpet Archon (Cr 14) has 126 hp

    Mind you, there are exceptions to this rule (the tarrasque possesses almost 900 hp at CR 20 and Monstrous vermin that have high hp for their CR) but only dragons (which are notorious for being really strong for their CR) really seem to stand out among those I looked through.
    I actually started feeling a bit guilty on the breath weapon damage issue.
    Thanks for clarifying that angle.
    Puts things back in perspective.

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    Default Re: Dragonfury Disciple, take II (PEACH)

    See I'd be more worried about Maximize Breath giving them a 1/encounter save or die for enemies with CR = to their class level.

    As the above list showed 140 damage is enough to kill or almost kill most CR 14 creatures.

    So yeah a 1 feat investment to save or die most minions round 1 of combat, 2 to make the save effectively impossible for them with Heighten Breath, makes a good minion sweeper (and no feats still means that they can usually take them out giving 3 or so rounds) the fact that it also includes the ability to deal 90% health to most CR equivalent enemies (this does not hold true at 20th but hp increase is not linear) is the more worrying one.

    Looking at 3rd level (when you could be dealing 30 damage, with a save DC of 17 with 2 feats and 17 Con). So looking at the Monster Manual, minions you would fight at Lv 3:

    Minions:
    Small Animated Object: 15 hp, hardness of 0-X. If it has hardness and makes its save it survives (barely) but only has a 25% chance of making its save.
    Darkmantle: dies.
    Lemure: Dies to electric. 65% chance of death to cold.
    Duergar: Dead.
    Small Elementals: Dead.
    Ghoul: Dead.
    Gnoll: Dead
    Grimlock: Dead.
    Homunculus: Dead.
    Krenshar: Dead.
    Lizardfolk: Dead
    Pseudodragon: Dead or 0 hp (40% chance)
    Wolf Skeleton: Dead.
    Going through the only the CR 1 zombie can survive on a successful save before getting to animals/vermin and among animals only horses, camels, mantas, and sharks survive on a successful save (about half of the CR 1 animals), moving to vermin none of them survive the attack.

    For most of these Heighten Breath isn't even necessary, Maximize Breath equals an automatic death.

    Full creatures:
    Allip: 26 hp, +4 Reflex save, Incorporeal. This is a notoriously mean creature for a level 3 party to face and can kill many. You have a better than 25% chance of killing it straight out, and a 50% chance of at least halving its health which leaves you sitting prettier than the vast majority of people.
    Large Animated Object: 52 hp, Reflex +1, Hardness X. Hardness reduces energy damage so you'll only be dealing 20 to 25 damage and it will survive your attack. Of course hardness 10 at this level pretty much means it will ignore most attacks except a warblade's.
    Ankheg: 28 hp, +3 Reflex save. 65% chance of death, 35% chance of halving its health.
    Juvenile Arrowhawk: 16 hp, +8 reflex save, fire/cold resistance 10, electricity and acid immunity. This one actually has a good chance of survive (60%) and only loses 1/3rd its health on a failed save.
    Assassin Vine: 30 hp, +1 Ref, electricity immunity, fire/cold resistance 10. As you cannot get Acid Breath till 5th level it just becomes a good (20 damage) attack with a chance of failure (5 damage).
    Centaur: 26 hp, +6 Ref. 50% chance of death, 50% chance of halved life.
    Cockatrice: 27 hp, +7 Ref. 45% chance of death, 55% chance of halved life.
    Derro: 16 hp, +5 Ref. 55% chance of death, 45% chance of 1 hp.
    Deinonychus: 34 hp, +6 Ref. Will survive. 50% chance of 4 hp, 50% chance of less than halved life.
    Dire Ape: As Deinonychus with +1 hp.
    Dire Wolf: 45 hp means this thing can tank your attack. +7 Reflex means it has a 55% chance of only losing a 3rd of its health. Which is still a big loss.
    Doppleganger: 22 hp, +5 Ref. Dead on a failed save, all but dead on a successful one.
    Dryad: 14 hp. Automatic death.
    Giant Eagle: 26 hp, +7 save. 45% chance of death, 55% chance of being reduced to under half health.
    Medium Elemental: Dead or 0 hp on a failed save (hp 26 or 30) and ranges from an 80% chance of death to merely a 40% chance.
    Ethereal Filcher: 22 hp, +5 save. 55% chance of death, 45% chance of being reduced to 1 shot range from a standard melee attack.
    Ethereal Marauder: 11 hp. It is dead.
    Ettercap: 27 hp, +4 Ref. 60% chance of death.
    Grick: 9 hp, CR comes from being mostly immune to non-magical weapons. Dead.
    Hellhound: 22 hp, immune to fire, weak to cold. 55% chance of death with lightning breath, 100% with cold.
    Howler: 39 hp, +8 Reflex. Will survive and a 55% chance of surviving with a meaningful amount of health.

    I'm going to stop now since it seems to have made the point that except for one or two outliers it's a save or die at 3rd level with a good chance of them failing. A warblade of these levels with 16 Str (to equal your 16 Con) deals 4d6+4 damage (18) if using a 2nd level maneuver, 21.5 if willing to take a -2 to AC, and has a +7 to hit. Meaning that his attack has about a 55% chance of hitting and is single target. At 3rd level warblade is probably the strongest class in the game barring heavy optimization and cheese. It has a 40-65% chance of dealing massive, but not lethal damage to an enemy (+20% if they're willing to take a -4 to AC), while then being forced to rely upon much lower damage which can still finish off most enemies in 1 or 2 hits if that one hit and 2 to 4 hits otherwise. This class has a ~50% of killing an enemy straight out and dealing almost as much damage as a warblade should that fail. It then only falls slightly behind them in accuracy and damage thanks to its Strength bonus and has better AC as it can wear Studded Leather Armor along with its scales.

    A better ability score array (an 18), increases your kill rate by 10%, and increases the warblade's damage by 2 (usually not enough to matter) and hit rate by 5%. An additional +2 racial bonus increases your kill percent by another 10%, and the warblade's hit rate and damage by 1. A human bonus feat also gives you an additional +10% kill rate with Ability Focus (Breath Weapon).

    While at higher levels the monsters' health increases faster than your damage, though how powerful exhalation interacts with your Con bonus dice is unclear and could put you up to 180 damage (save or die for CR 14 creatures even dragons) at Lv 12 assuming you can maximize it at all (if you can't it's a worthless ability because it's worse than your normal breath weapon in all regards), and by Lv 20 is a save or die against a balor. Did I mention you can reliably have a DC of 46 by Lv 20? Assuming you picked up Cold damage at some point you automatically reduce a Balor to 0 hp unless it nat 20s its saving throw.

    Yeah the damage might be a tad bit high.
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