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    Default [3.5=>PF] Bringing the Warmage to PF

    Hello! I've been thinking about how to bring the Warmage into PF while giving it a little of its own thing. Note that unless the information is freely available from the authors such as here and here, I will simply write "As written in Minitatures Handbook and Complete Arcane."

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    Base abilities
    d6 HD, Poor BAB, Good Will, 2+Int skills/level
    Class skills: Remove Concentration (as it no longer exists as a skill). Add Bluff and Diplomacy as class skills, otherwise class skills as written in MH/CA.
    Weapon and armor proficiency: As written in MH/CA.
    Spellcasting: As written in MH/CA.

    Class Features
    Armored Mage: As written in MH/CA, except Armored Mage (Medium) comes at level 7 instead of level 8.

    Warmage Edge: As written in MH/CA, except the warmage adds his Charisma modifier to damage instead of Intelligence.

    Arcane Shot (Su): As a standard action, the warmage can make a ranged touch attack with a range of 30 ft. If successful, the warmage deals 1d6 damage plus his Warmage Edge. The warmage chooses whether to do acid, cold, electricity or fire damage when he uses this ability. This ability can be used a number of times per day equal to 3+the warmage's Charisma modifier.

    Advanced Learning: As written in MH/CA, with the following changes: The warmage gains this ability at level 2 and every even level afterwards.

    At level 4, the warmage can choose to learn a conjuration or necromancy spell from the wizard spell list of up to one level lower than his maximum warmage spell level whenever he gains advanced learning.

    At level 6, the warmage can choose to learn an illusion or abjuration spell from the wizard spell list of up to two levels lower than his maximum warmage spell level whenever he gains advanced learning.

    At level 20, the warmage chooses a number of spells from the wizard spell list equal to double his Charisma modifier and adds them to his warmage spell list. These spells can be of any level if they are evocation spells, of up to one spell level lower than his maximum level if conjuration or necromancy spells, or of up to two spell levels lower if illusion or abjuration spells.

    Veteran (Focused Mind) (Su): A warmage who survives a few battles begins to learn lessons that only experience can teach. At level 3, the warmage can reroll a failed concentration check he has just rolled with a +2 bonus. He must take the second result, even if it is worse. This is a swift action that can be used once per day.

    Rapid Spell Control: An trained warmage is skilled at modifying his spells on the fly to suit the situation. At 5th, 9th, 13th and 17th level, the warmage gains access to a sudden metamagic feat of his choice as a bonus feat. He must meet all prerequisites of this feat.

    Alternatively, he can choose one sudden metamagic feat he already possesses and gain an additional daily use of that feat. He can only gain one addition use per feat, and cannot gain an addition use of Sudden Quicken, Sudden Daze, or Sudden Echo (see below). He cannot use the same sudden metamagic feat twice in the same casting of the spell (i.e. he could cast sudden empowered fireball and sudden quickened sudden empowered fireball in the same round, but not sudden empowered sudden empowered fireball.

    Veteran (Crucial Blow) (Su): A warmage is sometimes forced to attack a foe with a weapon or weapon-like spell, and the warmages who survive are the ones with the luck and skill to land them at vital moments. At level 7, a warmage can reroll an attack roll he has just made with a +2 bonus. He must take the second result, even if it is worse. Using this ability is a swift action that must be taken before the result of the attack (success or failure) is known. In addition, the warmage gains an additional daily use of his veteran class feature, which may be used for Crucial Blow or Focused Mind (a total of two times per day).

    Improved Warmage Edge (Ex): At level 10, the warmage adds his warmage edge to every creature hit by a spell that benefits from his warmage edge.

    Veteran (Swift Victory) (Su): Despite sayings to the contrary, the battle is often to the swift; a warmage understand the importance gaining and maintaining momentum in combat. At level 11, the warmage can reroll an initiative check he has just made as a free action with a +2 bonus. He must take the second result, even if it is worse. In addition, the warmage gains an additional daily use of his veteran class feature, which may be used for any of his veteran abilities (a total of three times per day).

    Veteran (Cunning Spellweave) (Su): The warmage's prodigious spellcasting ability can be turned meaningless by foes with the proper protections. A prepared warmage may find a way to overpower or bypass those obstacles. At level 15, the warmage can reroll a caster level check made to overcome spell resistance as a switch action with a +2 bonus. He must take the second result, even if it is worse. In addition, the warmage also gains an additional daily use of his veteran class feature, which may be used for any of his veteran abilities (a total of four times per day).

    Veteran (Living Artillery) (Su): The veteran who has survived countless battlefields knows exactly how to get the results he needs, when he needs them. At level 19, the warmage can spend additional uses of his veteran class feature when he uses it, gaining an additional +2 bonus for each additional use spent, to a maximum of +10. In addition, the warmage also gains an additional daily use of his veteran class feature which may be used for any of his veteran abilities (a total of five times per day).


    On a table, it looks like this:

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    1 - Armored Mage (light), Warmage Edge, Arcane Shot
    2 - Advanced Learning (Evocation)
    3 - Veteran (Focused Mind) 1/day
    4 - Advanced Learning (Conjuration and Necromancy)
    5 - Rapid Spell Control (1st)
    6 - Advanced Learning (Abjuration and Illusion)
    7 - Armored Mage (Medium), Veteran (Crucial Blow) 2/day
    8 - Advanced Learning
    9 - Rapid Spell Control (2nd)
    10 - Advanced Learning, Improved Warmage Edge
    11 - Veteran (Swift Victory) 3/day
    12 - Advanced Learning
    13 - Rapid Spell Control (3rd)
    14 - Advanced Learning
    15 - Veteran (Cunning Spellweave) 4/day
    16 - Advanced Learning
    17 - Rapid Spell Control (4th)
    18 - Advanced Learning
    19 - Veteran (Living Artillery) 5/day
    20 - Advanced Learning (Master)


    Also, regarding sudden metamagic:

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    There are a very limited number of published sudden metamagic feats available. Pathfinder has plenty of metamagic feats, many of which are suitable to be converted to sudden metamagic feats.

    Unfortunately, I cannot find the exact paragraph explaining sudden metamagic feats on page 25 of the Miniatures Handbook explicitly posted by WotC, so I will refrain from posting it. Those unfamiliar with the concept should look at Sudden Empower

    The following metamagic feats can be converted to sudden metamagic feats with no changes: Bouncing, Disruptive, Ectoplasmic, Elemental, Flaring, Focused, Intensified, Lingering, Merciful, Piercing, Rime, and Toppling.

    The following metamagic feats should have the prerequisite "one metamagic feat": Burning, Concussion, Dazing, Echoing, Persistent, Sickening, and Thundering.

    Sudden Reach should specify that it can only increase range by one category.

    Sudden Selection should have a prerequisite of 10 ranks.

    Sudden Thanatopic and Sudden Threnodoic should both have the prerequisites "Knowledge (Religion) 6 ranks, Spell Focus (Necromancy), one metamagic feat."


    Other things I was considering:

    1. What about upping its HD/BAB to d8/ 3/4 BAB? I feel it might suit the "armored, toughened spellcaster" theme better. In PF, the Summoner, Magus and the Alchemist are all lightly armored spellcasters with d8 HD. Of course, none of them have 9th level spellcasting, either.

    2. I added Bluff and Diplomacy to make it easier to "party-face." I considered adding UMD or even more. Should bluff and diplomacy go? Should more skills come in?

    3. The change on warmage edge I'm fairly satisfied with, but I feel like there should be an archetype that switches spellcasting AND warmage edge to Intelligence.

    4. I'm adamant about giving the warmage conjuration and necromancy spells (as they get so many already), and I like the idea of some warmages learning anti-caster and illusion magic to supplement their abilities (and they do get illusion spells!). Sure, a low-level warmage is a fireball-thrower churned out by an academy, but their personal choices (their advanced learning) might be to find a few tricks up their sleeves. I understand that this decision alone could potentially bump them up to tier 3, and I'm fine with that.

    There are a lot of different ways this could be tweaked, but I'm interested in people's thoughts.

    5. I'm considering cutting some of the metamagic feats from the "sudden" party. Sudden Daze and Sudden Persist especially seem powerful. Maybe there just needs to be a limit on the number of sudden metamagic feats that can be used on a single spell? Actually, I think Persistent Spell may just be too powerful for sudden metamagic. Also, I think Sudden Selection (Selective Spell) should maybe lose the 10 spellcraft ranks; it's so perfect for the warmage.

    6. Arcane shot was kind of a last-minute addition for something to do at level 1 when the spells have gone try (to avoid needing to haul out the old crossbow).

    What do you think? Completely off track? A step in the right direction?
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    Default Re: [3.5=>PF] Bringing the Warmage to PF

    So... what exactly is the benefit of playing a warmage over a magus? Wouldn't it be more prudent to just make warmage a magus archetype?

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    Default Re: [3.5=>PF] Bringing the Warmage to PF

    Quote Originally Posted by Novawurmson View Post
    1. What about upping its HD/BAB to d8/ 3/4 BAB? I feel it might suit the "armored, toughened spellcaster" theme better. In PF, the Summoner, Magus and the Alchemist are all lightly armored spellcasters with d8 HD. Of course, none of them have 9th level spellcasting, either.
    Bump the HD up to d8, leave the Bab where it is.
    This will also help differentiate it from the others.

    Quote Originally Posted by Novawurmson View Post
    2. I added Bluff and Diplomacy to make it easier to "party-face."
    Sure, why not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Novawurmson View Post
    3. The change on warmage edge I'm fairly satisfied with, but I feel like there should be an archetype that switches spellcasting AND warmage edge to Intelligence.
    Class first, archetypes later. Once we got most the bugs worked out of this, THEN come the archetypes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Novawurmson View Post
    4. I'm adamant about giving the warmage conjuration and necromancy spells (as they get so many already)...
    Looks good to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Novawurmson View Post
    6. Arcane shot was kind of a last-minute addition for something to do at level 1 when the spells have gone try (to avoid needing to haul out the old crossbow).
    Yeah...lots of the Full casters get some kind of "plink" ability. And blasting seems appropriate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keneth View Post
    So... what exactly is the benefit of playing a warmage over a magus?
    Warmages are still hardline "pure casters", and can get up to level 9 blasting spells.
    Magus's are gishes in a can, and prefer it that way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keneth View Post
    Wouldn't it be more prudent to just make warmage a magus archetype?
    It would be WAY too much work to properly overhaul the class to do what we want it to do. It's just easier to make a new class/import the old one.
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    Default Re: [3.5=>PF] Bringing the Warmage to PF

    Quote Originally Posted by grarrrg View Post
    Warmages are still hardline "pure casters", and can get up to level 9 blasting spells..
    Well, that's true in principle, but the only real loss is not being able to apply quite as much metamagic as you can with 9 spell levels. If all you want is a blaster in armor, PF already has plenty of ways for spellcasters to wear heavier armor without incurring much (or any) penalties. If you don't like magus, you can always make it a sorcerer archetype or bloodline.

    Quote Originally Posted by grarrrg View Post
    It would be WAY too much work to properly overhaul the class to do what we want it to do. It's just easier to make a new class/import the old one.
    It's hardly any easier with this many considerations. By the time you decide how to change/balance everything, you would have made 3 archetypes which work just fine.

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    Default Re: [3.5=>PF] Bringing the Warmage to PF

    Quote Originally Posted by Keneth View Post
    So... what exactly is the benefit of playing a warmage over a magus? Wouldn't it be more prudent to just make warmage a magus archetype?
    Grarrrg kinda nailed what I felt: The warmage is a spellcaster who casts damaging spells and does it well; the magus is a melee combatant who mixes spells and weapon strikes.

    I might consider swapping out Crucial Blow to increase the differentiation.

    Quote Originally Posted by grarrrg View Post
    Bump the HD up to d8, leave the Bab where it is.
    This will also help differentiate it from the others.
    I mostly like PF's "d10/d12 is full BAB, d8 is 3/4 BAB, d6 is 1/2 BAB" mantra. It'd be all or nothing in my mind.

    Class first, archetypes later. Once we got most the bugs worked out of this, THEN come the archetypes.
    Yeah, I know...but it's a way of sorting out what makes sense for a class and what doesn't make sense for a class in my mind.[/QUOTE]

    Edit:

    It's hardly any easier with this many considerations. By the time you decide how to change/balance everything, you would have made 3 archetypes which work just fine.
    Well, considering the warmage was already made and is considered relatively balanced (tier 4), it's really just my changes that need checking. If it helps, think of this as an archetype for the warmage.
    Last edited by Novawurmson; 2013-09-07 at 07:04 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CTrees View Post
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    Default Re: [3.5=>PF] Bringing the Warmage to PF

    I would make it a wizard or sorcerer archetype. The concept is too narrow (focused evoker) to carry a class with archetypes of its own in PF's world.

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    Default Re: [3.5=>PF] Bringing the Warmage to PF

    Quote Originally Posted by Keneth View Post
    If you don't like magus,...
    You're the one that brought up the Magus comparison. I just said why it wasn't accurate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Novawurmson View Post
    I mostly like PF's "d10/d12 is full BAB, d8 is 3/4 BAB, d6 is 1/2 BAB" mantra. It'd be all or nothing in my mind.
    Don't make me compile of list.

    I will grant you that all _base_ classes follow it though.

    If you insist upon it though, then go with d8hd and 3/4 Bab, to further distance the class from Sorcerer.

    Also, what about Favored Class Bonuses?
    The typical Human>Caster bonus is "add one spell", which doesn't fully work with the Warmage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    I would make it a wizard or sorcerer archetype. The concept is too narrow (focused evoker) to carry a class with archetypes of its own in PF's world.
    It'd be partway between a Bloodline and an Archetype. I would say an archetype with a 'fixed' Bloodline would be the way to go (similar to how a Black Blooded Oracle must have the Black Blood curse).


    Still, Warmage is a full list spontaneous caster. Which is somewhat different than a normal Sorcerer.
    Last edited by grarrrg; 2013-09-07 at 09:53 PM.
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    Default Re: [3.5=>PF] Bringing the Warmage to PF

    Might I suggest looking at this for inspiration? The spell list especially is fantastic.

    As for the archetype suggestion, my main problem with this is (unless the archetype changes so much that it may as well be a base class anyway) it'll raise the tier of the class. If you're alright with this then that's all fine and dandy, but I think it's not something that should be done lightly.

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    Default Re: [3.5=>PF] Bringing the Warmage to PF

    They probably should get Fly as a class skill, AFAIK all casters get it by default (and since one of their advancend learning WILL be Fly or similar they should get it too).
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    Default Re: [3.5=>PF] Bringing the Warmage to PF

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    I would make it a wizard or sorcerer archetype. The concept is too narrow (focused evoker) to carry a class with archetypes of its own in PF's world.
    I feel like it's still viable for two reasons:

    1. Fluff/crunch mixing (which is why I converted it in the first place): I'm running an Eberron campaign, and they talk about the great warmage schools of Aundair and Cyre. I really want a class that reflects "This is someone who was trained for combat, not just a sorcerer who for some reason selected only evocation spells."

    2. Tier woes: This warmage is good at what he does (blasting), has a little of other things, but mostly is way below the wizard and sorcerer in terms of flexibility. This refers back to the fluff, of course, but also helps when trying to throw things at a party appropriate to their tier instead of gods in humanoid bodies.

    Quote Originally Posted by grarrrg View Post
    Don't make me compile of list.

    I will grant you that all _base_ classes follow it though.

    If you insist upon it though, then go with d8hd and 3/4 Bab, to further distance the class from Sorcerer.
    Yeah, yeah...the prestige classes and all. I'm still mulling over the d8 HD. I can't think of an arcane full caster who gets a d8, though.

    Also, what about Favored Class Bonuses?
    The typical Human>Caster bonus is "add one spell", which doesn't fully work with the Warmage.
    There's always 1/x of an extra use of veteran or 1/x of an extra Rapid Spell Control.

    It'd be partway between a Bloodline and an Archetype. I would say an archetype with a 'fixed' Bloodline would be the way to go (similar to how a Black Blooded Oracle must have the Black Blood curse).
    I think technically it could be turned into a sorcerer archetype, but there would be so many changes that it's easier to represent in a base class.

    Quote Originally Posted by Craft (Cheese) View Post
    Might I suggest looking at this for inspiration? The spell list especially is fantastic.
    Ooooh. I like several of the things there, especially energy substitution and discriminating spell. Hrm. I might make veteran a "choose from this brief list of abilities."

    Quote Originally Posted by Dusk Eclipse View Post
    They probably should get Fly as a class skill, AFAIK all casters get it by default (and since one of their advancend learning WILL be Fly or similar they should get it too).
    Fly is transmutation, so currently, they'll never be able to pick it up. I was considering giving them transmutation, but if the get Evocation, Conjuration, Necromancy, Illusion, Abjuration, and Transmutation, the limitation starts going a little thin. I guess maybe if they could only have a limited number of spells of each school (i.e. no more than 2 of any one school besides evocation)...maybe. I'll think about it. Haste would be another great ability to be able to pick up.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CTrees View Post
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    Default Re: [3.5=>PF] Bringing the Warmage to PF

    Oh I was thinking of Eidetic Learning which does allows to learn Transmutation spells
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    Default Re: [3.5=>PF] Bringing the Warmage to PF

    Quote Originally Posted by Novawurmson View Post
    1. Fluff/crunch mixing (which is why I converted it in the first place): I'm running an Eberron campaign, and they talk about the great warmage schools of Aundair and Cyre. I really want a class that reflects "This is someone who was trained for combat, not just a sorcerer who for some reason selected only evocation spells."

    2. Tier woes: This warmage is good at what he does (blasting), has a little of other things, but mostly is way below the wizard and sorcerer in terms of flexibility. This refers back to the fluff, of course, but also helps when trying to throw things at a party appropriate to their tier instead of gods in humanoid bodies.
    Agreed, but it needs a strong enough flavor of it's own, without just seeming like some whacko bloodline.

    Quote Originally Posted by Novawurmson View Post
    Yeah, yeah...the prestige classes and all. I'm still mulling over the d8 HD. I can't think of an arcane full caster who gets a d8, though.
    If you add on the "arcane full caster" than there is only one that kind of counts.
    Agent of the Grave can be Arcane/Divine, 4/5's or Full casting (Text/Table issue), d8's with 1/2 Bab, 5 levels.

    The next two that come closest are:

    Hellknight Signifier is Arc/Div, 10/10 casting, d8's 3/4 Bab (if entered as Arcane you (eventually) reduce Armor Spell Failure by 10%).

    Razmiran Priest, Arcane only, 7/10 casting, d8's, 3/4 Bab.


    I still feel a bump to d8 with 1/2 Bab is the most 'accuracte' translation. But if forced to 'follow the base class guidelines', then I'd go with d8 and 3/4.
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    Default Re: [3.5=>PF] Bringing the Warmage to PF

    Quote Originally Posted by Novawurmson View Post
    I feel like it's still viable for two reasons:

    1. Fluff/crunch mixing (which is why I converted it in the first place): I'm running an Eberron campaign, and they talk about the great warmage schools of Aundair and Cyre. I really want a class that reflects "This is someone who was trained for combat, not just a sorcerer who for some reason selected only evocation spells."

    2. Tier woes: This warmage is good at what he does (blasting), has a little of other things, but mostly is way below the wizard and sorcerer in terms of flexibility. This refers back to the fluff, of course, but also helps when trying to throw things at a party appropriate to their tier instead of gods in humanoid bodies.
    I still don't, and there's actually a pretty easy litmus test to see why. If you made a "Warmage" class in PF, what kinds of archetypes would it have? There aren't really any that wouldn't push it back towards the wizard or sorcerer you were trying to get away from; if a class isn't broad enough to support archetypes of its own, it's better off being an archetype itself.

    The only way I would see this working as a class is if you changed its casting progression a la the Summoner, discounted several of the blasting spells so that Warmages would get them at the same levels as before, then gave them a unique scaling benefit (a la the Eidolon or Spell Combat) to entice people into taking the class.

    @ The fluff/crunch point: archetypes already represent focused, specialized or esoteric training methods so I don't see this being much of an issue. For example, Grenadier Alchemists in the Pathfinder Society are referred to simply as Grenadiers.

    Tierwise: however you bring this into PF (class or archetype), it needs to be powered up anyway. Conceptually, it makes no sense that a college of magi training to be artillery wouldn't learn things like flight (even a more evocation-focused method like Floating Disk) or scrying, as those tactics would better enable them to deliver their payload to the enemy.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
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    Default Re: [3.5=>PF] Bringing the Warmage to PF

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    I still don't, and there's actually a pretty easy litmus test to see why. If you made a "Warmage" class in PF, what kinds of archetypes would it have? There aren't really any that wouldn't push it back towards the wizard or sorcerer you were trying to get away from; if a class isn't broad enough to support archetypes of its own, it's better off being an archetype itself.

    The only way I would see this working as a class is if you changed its casting progression a la the Summoner, discounted several of the blasting spells so that Warmages would get them at the same levels as before, then gave them a unique scaling benefit (a la the Eidolon or Spell Combat) to entice people into taking the class.
    If this were a class being released for a new sourcebook, I'd agree with you. But this isn't a class being made for a sourcebook, it's a homebrew conversion being made for personal use. As such it doesn't need to perfectly harmonize with the rest of PF's design principles, it just has to work for his table and his group: The aforementioned power and complexity arguments are more than sufficient, I think, for discounting it as an archetype option.

    Tierwise: however you bring this into PF (class or archetype), it needs to be powered up anyway.
    To Tier 1/2 though? The Warmage was Tier 4 in 3.5, and it seems the OP wants it to stay that way in PF.

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    Default Re: [3.5=>PF] Bringing the Warmage to PF

    Quote Originally Posted by Craft (Cheese) View Post
    If this were a class being released for a new sourcebook, I'd agree with you. But this isn't a class being made for a sourcebook, it's a homebrew conversion being made for personal use. As such it doesn't need to perfectly harmonize with the rest of PF's design principles, it just has to work for his table and his group.
    Indeed it doesn't, but he asked for opinions and I gave mine.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
    Cheers to Psyren the MVP "naysayer".
    Plague Doctor by Crimmy
    Ext. Sig (Handbooks/Creations)

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