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  1. - Top - End - #31
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Segev's Avatar

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    Default Re: Giant's Stance: Grotesquely underpowered?

    Items, like spells, require a round to activate. Spells - when cast by allies - at least only cost the caster's round, rather than the now-Enlarged beatstick's, but it still costs a round.

    A permanancied Enlarge Person is always on, with all the attendant disadvantages, but also attendant advantages.

    I'd suggest carrying around an item of Reduce Person when you're Enlarged permanently, because the cases where getting smaller will help usually aren't as time-critical as the "get big for combat" issue, but Reduce Person says it counters and dispels Enlarge, so it'd probably waste all the gp you just spent on Enlarging yourself Permanently the first time you used it.

    The PsyWarrior 1 power "Compression," on the other hand, does not explicitly counter and dispel anything. So an item of that may be the ticket!

  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Default Re: Giant's Stance: Grotesquely underpowered?

    As an aside, this thread made me remember an old homebrew PrC I wrote for a player who wanted to play Ant Man. He had a fun time with it.

    Atom Smasher
    Spoiler
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    Requirements: Ability to manifest Expansion and Compression, Knowledge (Psionics) 8 ranks.

    {table=head]Level | BAB | Fort | Ref | Will | Special |
    1st | +0 | +2 | +2 | +2 | Size Specialist | -
    2nd | +1 | +3 | +3 | +3 | Size Bonus Feat | +1 manifester level
    3rd | +2 | +3 | +3 | +3 | Size Bonus Feat, Skill Mastery | +1 manifester level
    4th | +3 | +4 | +4 | +4 | Size Bonus Feat | +1 manifester level
    5th | +3 | +4 | +4 | +4 | Size Mastery | -
    [/table]

    Hit Die: d8

    Class Skills: Autohypnosis, Balance, Climb, Concentration, Craft, Escape Artist, Hide, Intimidation, Jump, Listen, Knowledge (Psionics), Move Silently, Profession, Spot, Swim, and Tumble.

    Skill Points: 4 + Int per level.

    Class Abilities:

    Size Specialist: Starting at first level, you may subtract your Atom Smasher class level from the power point cost required to augment the Expansion and Compression psionic powers (with a minimum cost of 0 points), and you calculate the cost for doing so for each augmentation separately, including any metapsionic feats you apply to these powers. For example, a Psychic Warrior 5/Atom Smasher 4 could manifest Expansion or Compression for 1 power point, increase or decrease their size change by one additional category for two additional power points (6 minus 4), manifest it as a Swift Action for two additional power points (6 minus 4), and increase the duration to 10 minutes per level for zero additional power points (2 minus 4, minimum 0).

    In addition, you may use your total character level to determine your manifester level for Expansion and Compression, in place of the normal calculation for determining manifester level. For example, a Fighter 6/Warmind 5/Atom Smasher 1 may use a manifester level of 12 for Expansion and Compression (which could not be further modified by other abilities or Feats like Overchannel or Practiced Manifester), instead of 5.

    Powers Known: At second, third, and fourth levels, the character progresses his manifester level, gains additional power points per day, and gains access to new powers as if he had also gained a level in whatever manifesting class he belonged to before he added the prestige class. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained (bonus feats, metapsionic or item creation feats, psicrystal special abilities, and so on). This essentially means that he adds the level of Atom Smasher to the level of whatever manifesting class the character has, then determines power points per day, powers known, and manifester level accordingly. For example, a Psychic Warrior 5/Atom Smasher 5 would have the psionic powers of an 8th level Psychic Warrior. If a character had more than one manifesting class before she became an Atom Smasher, he must decide to which class he adds the new level of Atom Smasher for the purpose of determining power points per day, powers known, and Atom Smasher level.

    Size Bonus Feat: At second, third, and fourth levels, you gain a bonus feat of your choice. Each bonus feat must have a size category requirement in order to select it, such as Giantbane (Complete Warrior), Underfoot Combat (Races of the Wild), Confound the Big Folk (Underfoot Combat), Swarm Fighting (Complete Warrior), Scramble (Savage Species), Powerful Charge (Miniatures Handbook), Clever Wrestling (Complete Warrior), Cunning Sidestep (Draconomicon), Fling Ally (Races of Stone), Fling Foe (Races of Stone), Knockback (Races of Stone), Rock Hurling (Races of Stone), Snatch (Monster Manual), Improved Snatch (Draconomicon), and similar feats. You you take the Feat even if you do not currently meet the size requirements for that Feat, but you do not gain the benefits of that Feat until you do. For example, a Medium character could take the Knockback Feat, but would only benefit from it when he is Large size or bigger.

    Skill Mastery: At third level, whenever you are Tiny or smaller size you may Take 10 on all Balance, Climb, Escape Artist, and Tumble checks, even while threatened or rushed. Whenever you are Large size or bigger, you may Take 10 on all Jump checks, even while threatened or rushed.

    Size Mastery: At fifth level, when you manifest Expansion you may increase your size by one additional category (for a maximum total of three size categories) at no additional Power Point cost. When you manifest Compression you may decrease your size by one additional category (for a maximum total of three size categories) at no additional Power Point cost. You may also manifest Expansion and Compression as an Immediate Action, at no additional Power Point cost.

    In addition, when you are Tiny or smaller size, you may add your Dexterity bonus to all damage rolls that you make. When you are Huge or greater in size, you may add your Strength bonus to all Intimidation checks that you make.


    In general, if you have a player that just wants to be big or small or whatever, you should find an easy way to let them do it. It's going to break the game, and it's a lot easier to hand them a strait forward method of doing what they want, instead of having them cobble together a bunch of spells and effects that don't mesh well with their character concept.

  3. - Top - End - #33
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Feint's End's Avatar

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    Default Re: Giant's Stance: Grotesquely underpowered?

    To OP:

    Yes Giant's Stance is terrible. It would be slightly better if you could size larger than large with it since as written it even doesn't make sense on unarmed combatants.

    For example:

    Be a Kalashtar Tashalatora Ardent/Psywar (Doesn't really matter)with strong arms craft and battlefist craft. Add Improved Natural Attack and Expansion ^2.

    Now get yourself some action with greater mighty wallop and apply size modifiers in the most favourable way.

    so we got 2d10->4d8->6d8->8d8->12d8->16d8->24d8->32d8->48d8->64d8 .... while that is already awesome another size increase would mean 32d8 additional damage so yeah through giant stance but ... well yeah ...

  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Segev's Avatar

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    Default Re: Giant's Stance: Grotesquely underpowered?

    Hrm. Not that this in any way saves it as a level 5 stance, but would you be able to apply it in an order that would allow a small or smaller unarmed combatant get up to Colossal-type damage?

    Perhaps STARTING smaller makes it better, is what I'm trying to (get others, more experienced with unarmed and sizing mechanics, to) examine. Because there ARE advantages to actually being smaller rather than bigger; better to-hit, better AC, etc. So if it can even serve as a step to get little guys to Colossal-type damage while retaining their smallness advantages, it could be worth...something. Even if not a level 5 stance.

  5. - Top - End - #35
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: Giant's Stance: Grotesquely underpowered?

    I'm not seeing what's so zomghorrible about the stance ending when you move. You can simply reactive it with a swift action, and while ToB did some to give melee a use for immediate/swift actions, it's very likely you'll have it free for the round (though it means you won't benefit on a charge). The fact that you must be in contact with the ground is a much, MUCH bigger problem than eating up an extra swift action.
    Proudly without a signature for 5 years. Wait... crap.

  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Default Re: Giant's Stance: Grotesquely underpowered?

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    No offense, Lonely Tylenol, but it sounds like your argument centers around, "Casters should be more powerful than others at whatever because they are casters. It is right and good that any non-caster system should fall short of what a wizard can do. Wizards and clerics and druids should be better at all this stuff."

    I know you don't explicitly say most of that, but the parts you don't say extend logically from what seems to be the premise around which your post is built, which is, "Wizards do everything better, and you shouldn't try to balance things against what wizards can do because wizards SHOULD do everything better."


    If that is not where you're coming from, please explain how you believe non-casters SHOULD be balanced compared to casters.
    Well, it sure is a good thing you qualify that statement, because I'm going in the opposite direction, here! A Wizard could prepare three different broken tricks each day, and have enough to prepare three different broken tricks each day for a year without repeating himself. Wizards (and related full casters) have set the benchmark so high that, from a balance standpoint, one can look at the Wuxia-level badassery the Warblade puts out and yawn. Swordsages can fly and rain fiery death from the sky, and the rote reaction is always going to be, "so? Wizards have been flying and raining fiery death from the sky for eight levels now, assuming they're unoptimized enough!

    Wizards make a horrible balance point because Wizards are horribly imbalanced. If the question is "can a Wizard do this better, faster, sooner?", the answer is yes, of course they can. If that's your balance point, then of course a vast majority of options fall short of the benchmark. That doesn't make these options grotesquely underpowered; taken as a whole, that makes the balance point grotesquely overpowered.
    Homebrew!
    5e: Expanded Inspiration Uses

    Spoiler: 3.5/P Stuff. Warning: OLD
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  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Segev's Avatar

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    Default Re: Giant's Stance: Grotesquely underpowered?

    No, that really isn't a sound argument. The balance point CAN be set wherever you want, if you build around it.

    But more to the point, your argument is meaningless. If you're saying "Enlarge Person is overpowered as a level 1 spell," that is more meaningful. Is that the point you're trying to make in context of this discussion? Because "wizards are OP!" is not useful. It says nothing to the specifics of the situation. For every broken thing a Wizard can do, there are umpteen underpowered spells he could prepare. But for your statement to have any meaning, we must conclude that you mean that all things a Wizard can do are overpowered, and thus nothing should be balanced to be even as strong as teh weakest thing a Wizard can do.

    If that is NOT your point, you need to narrow your claim. Focus it. If you want to say Enlarge Person is overpowered, then we have somethign we can discuss. I happen to disagree; I think it's fine as a 1st level spell. Do you believe it to be overpowered? If so, why? What should a 1st level spell do, and what level should Enlarge Person be? Or how should it be changed?

  8. - Top - End - #38
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    Phaederkiel's Avatar

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    Default Re: Giant's Stance: Grotesquely underpowered?

    I have used giants stance as an NPC option. Describing how the guys morningstar grows got obviously more reaction than the actual damage increase, but hey...

  9. - Top - End - #39
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    Rubik's Avatar

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    Default Re: Giant's Stance: Grotesquely underpowered?

    Quote Originally Posted by Phaederkiel View Post
    I have used giants stance as an NPC option. Describing how the guys morningstar grows got obviously more reaction than the actual damage increase, but hey...
    Um... That's not how the stance works at all.

  10. - Top - End - #40
    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: Giant's Stance: Grotesquely underpowered?

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    Items, like spells, require a round to activate. Spells - when cast by allies - at least only cost the caster's round, rather than the now-Enlarged beatstick's, but it still costs a round.
    Nope, you can get a Continuous item (see the Spell Effect sub-table) and have it always work unless you take off the item. Also, if a magic item is dispelled, it comes back after 1d4 rounds. If your permanency is dispelled, it's gone, period.
    Quote Originally Posted by Calanon View Post
    Raven_Cry's comments often have the effects of a +5 Tome of Understanding

  11. - Top - End - #41
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    Segev's Avatar

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    Default Re: Giant's Stance: Grotesquely underpowered?

    I suppose that would only be a 3000 gp item.

  12. - Top - End - #42
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    Default Re: Giant's Stance: Grotesquely underpowered?

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    I suppose that would only be a 3000 gp item.
    4000 I think actually, though it should be noted these are suggestions for estimating. The DM can, and should, adjust things somewhat up and down as needed. A use activated item of True Strike, if only for its concealment negating effect, is worth more than the formula suggests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Calanon View Post
    Raven_Cry's comments often have the effects of a +5 Tome of Understanding

  13. - Top - End - #43
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    Segev's Avatar

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    Default Re: Giant's Stance: Grotesquely underpowered?

    An item of True Strike would follow the formula for non-enhancement bonus-to-hit, not for a spell.

    IIRC, Enlarge Person is 10 min/level, earning it a 1.5x multiplier on the base 1 (CL) x 1 (spell level) x 2000 gp for a continuous item. If it's a min./level instead of 10, then yes, it's a 2x multiplier instead of 1.5x. This is, of course, assuming "appropriate body slot." I figure a cloak is probably about right, for "shoulders." Maybe arms/bracers. (Gauntlets of Ogre Size?) Heck, the presence of "belt of giant strength" could indicate "belt" is a valid slot. It's pretty flexible.

    Yes, they're guidelines, but they're pretty solid ones. Enlarge Person does not have any of the standard tell-tale signs that it should be inflated in price beyond the recommended guidelines. So unless you think it a particularly potent effect to have on all the time, there you go.

  14. - Top - End - #44
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Feint's End's Avatar

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    Default Re: Giant's Stance: Grotesquely underpowered?

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    Hrm. Not that this in any way saves it as a level 5 stance, but would you be able to apply it in an order that would allow a small or smaller unarmed combatant get up to Colossal-type damage?

    Perhaps STARTING smaller makes it better, is what I'm trying to (get others, more experienced with unarmed and sizing mechanics, to) examine. Because there ARE advantages to actually being smaller rather than bigger; better to-hit, better AC, etc. So if it can even serve as a step to get little guys to Colossal-type damage while retaining their smallness advantages, it could be worth...something. Even if not a level 5 stance.
    Greater Mighty Wallop does increase size up to colossal and up to 5 size categories meaning for a small character it's the exact same thing at level 20. You had to be at least tiny to get a real advantage out of the stance (I mean if you are stacking size categories and the only place you are really doing this is when you fight unarmed or with natural weapons)

    Might be worth it on a King of Smack build since you can actually apply the stance here before other stuff like expansion and Improved Natural Attack. So not entirely useless on a build like that.

  15. - Top - End - #45
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    Default Re: Giant's Stance: Grotesquely underpowered?

    Hm. Small "King of Smack" using Compression to get down to Tiny, Giant Stance for +1 effective size for damage back up to Small, and then Greater Mighty Wallop for increase to Colossal.

    Actually, could go all the way down to Fine via augmented Compression, and add Improved Natural Weapon to get back up to Colossal damage.

    The six-inch-tall King of Smack!

  16. - Top - End - #46
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    Default Re: Giant's Stance: Grotesquely underpowered?

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    Hm. Small "King of Smack" using Compression to get down to Tiny, Giant Stance for +1 effective size for damage back up to Small, and then Greater Mighty Wallop for increase to Colossal.

    Actually, could go all the way down to Fine via augmented Compression, and add Improved Natural Weapon to get back up to Colossal damage.

    The six-inch-tall King of Smack!
    amusing idea :D ... wouldn't use it on a king of smack though. Greater Mighty Wallop doesn't work on claws so you had to build a Tashalatora "King of Smack" who focuses on unarmed attacks. And even then it would still be suboptimal since, well ...., you can't use expansion if you are already using compression and that's one of the core damage increases of every king of smack build. It would be very amusing though :D ... gonna give you that

  17. - Top - End - #47
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    Default Re: Giant's Stance: Grotesquely underpowered?

    Well, you're using Compression precisely because you've pushed the damage up to Colossal and super-saturated it there if you don't shrink down a little bit.

    So you're now shrinking for the size bonus to hit and AC (and possibly hide!), without sacrificing the damage.

    Admittedly, you ARE taking a penalty to strength that you'll need to overcome.

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