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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Troll in the Playground
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    Default Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLIX

    Welcome, contestants, judges, and guests to Iron Chef XLIX. Here in Optimization Colosseum, contestants will endeavor to create an optimized and flavorful character using a specified D&D3.5 prestige class as a "Secret Ingredient".

    Contestants: You will need to present a write-up of your build at at least one of the following points: 5th level, 10th level, 15th, 20th, and a "sweet spot" that you feel is the high point of the build, as well as presenting a fully-fleshed out 20-level build in the table below. Feel free to present as many of these as you like, and please give a rundown of the build's abilities and playability at all of the levels you didn't show. The rules are as follows:

    Menu: For most challenges, the "special ingredient" will be drawn from Core plus Completes. There will, from time to time, be special challenges that showcase secret ingredients from other books--for example, the XPH.
    32 point-buy is the presumed creation method, but we have generally allowed other levels of point-buy.
    If you do use a different point-buy, please make your case for its necessity in your entry. Keep in mind that for using exceptionally large or small point-buys may warrant deductions in elegance and/or power.

    Kitchen: Competitors will be free to use any official 3.5 rulebook in constructing their builds. Dragon magazine is disallowed, and Unearthed Arcana is allowed; but see Elegance below. Web-exclusive 3.0 or 3.5 materials by WotC are expressly allowed, but take care to verify that an updated version did not appear in print elsewhere, as this may cause an Elegance deduction at the judges' discretion. Alternate rule systems from UA such as gestalt are not allowed, as they create a different playing field. Also, item familiars are forbidden because I hate 'em.

    Cooking Time: Contestants will have until 11:59PM GMT on Monday, September 23rd, 2013 to create their builds and PM them to the Chairman, Kuulvheysoon. Builds will then be posted simultaneously, to avoid copying. Judges will have until 11:59PM GMT on Monday, October 7th, 2013 to judge the builds and submit their scores. If no judges have scored by that point, only the scores of the first judge to submit will be counted.

    Judging: Judging will be based on the following criteria, with each build rated from 1 (very poor) to 5 (exemplary) in each area: Originality, Power, Elegance, Use of Secret Ingredient.
    Power level is up to you. Cheese is acceptable, but should be kept to a sane level unless you're showcasing a new TO build you've discovered. In the words of one of my predecessors, a little cheddar can be nice, but avoid the mature Gruyere unless you're making a cheese fondue.
    Elegance could bear a little elaboration. It basically measures how skillfully you put your build together, and whether you sacrificed flavor for power. We're cooking here - if your dish doesn't taste good, it doesn't matter how well-presented it is. Use of flaws is an automatic loss of one point per flaw in this category. Other things that will cause lost points here are excessive multiclassing, and classes that don't fit the concept - using Cloistered Cleric in a front-line melee fighter, for example, will lose you points. Please note the following change: a legal source's relative obscurity should not be considered as penalizing Elegance, excepting the aforementioned issues with Unearthed Arcana. Using too many sources may be an Elegance deduction at the judges' discretion, but a book's relative obscurity may not.
    Presentation: Builds will be posted anonymously, in order to avoid the potential of bias towards a particular competitor. For this reason, please don't put your name in the build, as I'm likely to miss it when reviewing the entries!
    Due to concerns about standardizing entry format, I'd like everyone to try to use the following table for their entry.
    Spoiler
    Show
    NAME OF ENTRY
    {table=head]Level|Class|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Skills|Feats|Class Features

    1st|New Class Level|
    +x
    |
    +x
    |
    +x
    |
    +x
    |Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

    2nd|New Class Level|
    +x
    |
    +x
    |
    +x
    |
    +x
    |Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

    3rd|New Class Level|
    +x
    |
    +x
    |
    +x
    |
    +x
    |Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

    4th|New Class Level|
    +x
    |
    +x
    |
    +x
    |
    +x
    |Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

    5th|New Class Level|
    +x
    |
    +x
    |
    +x
    |
    +x
    |Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

    6th|New Class Level|
    +x
    |
    +x
    |
    +x
    |
    +x
    |Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

    7th|New Class Level|
    +x
    |
    +x
    |
    +x
    |
    +x
    |Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

    8th|New Class Level|
    +x
    |
    +x
    |
    +x
    |
    +x
    |Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

    9th|New Class Level|
    +x
    |
    +x
    |
    +x
    |
    +x
    |Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

    10th|New Class Level|
    +x
    |
    +x
    |
    +x
    |
    +x
    |Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

    11th|New Class Level|
    +x
    |
    +x
    |
    +x
    |
    +x
    |Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

    12th|New Class Level|
    +x
    |
    +x
    |
    +x
    |
    +x
    |Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

    13th|New Class Level|
    +x
    |
    +x
    |
    +x
    |
    +x
    |Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

    14th|New Class Level|
    +x
    |
    +x
    |
    +x
    |
    +x
    |Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

    15th|New Class Level|
    +x
    |
    +x
    |
    +x
    |
    +x
    |Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

    16th|New Class Level|
    +x
    |
    +x
    |
    +x
    |
    +x
    |Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

    17th|New Class Level|
    +x
    |
    +x
    |
    +x
    |
    +x
    |Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

    18th|New Class Level|
    +x
    |
    +x
    |
    +x
    |
    +x
    |Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

    19th|New Class Level|
    +x
    |
    +x
    |
    +x
    |
    +x
    |Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

    20th|New Class Level|
    +x
    |
    +x
    |
    +x
    |
    +x
    |Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities[/table]

    Code
    Spoiler
    Show
    [b]NAME OF ENTRY[/b]
    {table=head][b]Level[/b]|[b]Class[/b]|[b]Base Attack Bonus[/b]|[b]Fort Save[/b]|[b]Ref Save[/b]|[b]Will Save[/b]|[b]Skills[/b]|[b]Feats[/b]|[b]Class Features[/b]

    1st|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

    2nd|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

    3rd|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

    4th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

    5th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

    6th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

    7th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

    8th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

    9th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

    10th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

    11th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

    12th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

    13th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

    14th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

    15th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

    16th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

    17th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

    18th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

    19th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

    20th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities[/table]

    For entries with spellcasting, use the following table for Spells per day and Spells Known. (Spells Known only if necessary, i.e. Sorcerer or Bard, but not Wizard or Warmage)
    Spoiler
    Show
    Spells per day/Spells Known
    {table=head]Level|0lvl|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th|7th|8th|9th

    1st|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    2nd|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    3rd|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    4th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    5th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    6th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    7th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    8th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    9th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    10th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    11th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    12th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    13th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    14th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    15th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    16th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    17th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    18th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    19th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    20th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-[/table]

    Code
    Spoiler
    Show
    [b]Spells per day/Spells Known[/b]
    {table=head][b]Level[/b]|[b]0lvl[/b]|[b]1st[/b]|[b]2nd[/b]|[b]3rd[/b]|[b]4th[/b]|[b]5th[/b]|[b]6th[/b]|[b]7th[/b]|[b]8th[/b]|[b]9th[/b]

    1st|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    2nd|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    3rd|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    4th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    5th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    6th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    7th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    8th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    9th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    10th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    11th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    12th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    13th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    14th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    15th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    16th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    17th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    18th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    19th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    20th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-[/table]

    For other systems (Psionics, ToB, Incarnum, etc.) keep track of PP/maneuvers/essentia separately, preferably in a nice neat list.
    Speculation: Please don't post or speculate on possible builds until the "reveal," in order to avoid spoiling the surprise if a particular competitor is producing a build along those lines.

    Leadership is banned; we're producing a meal, not a seven-course banquet for a hundred diners. If your entry includes a prestige class or ACF that grants Leadership or a Leadership-like ability as a bonus feat, the feat should be ignored and is not eligible to be traded away for another feat or ACF through any means.

    So! Who wants to sign up as a contestant, and who wants to sign up as a judge? Looking for as many contestants and judges as feel like playing!

    This week's special ingredient is:
    Book of Vile Darkness's Thrall of Orcus!
    We will award 1st through 3rd places, as well as a shout-out for honorable mention. The honorable mention prize is given to the most daring or unexpected build. Judges, contestants and guests alike are invited to vote for honorable mention via PM.

    Allez, optimiser!

    Contestants

    Judges

    The Builds

    Past Competitions

    Iron Chef I: Entropomancer
    Iron Chef II: Psibond Agent
    Iron Chef III: Cancer Mage
    Iron Chef IV: Stonelord
    Iron Chef V: War Chanter
    Iron Chef VI: Master of Masks
    Iron Chef VII: Green Star Adept
    Iron Chef VIII: Pyrokineticist
    Iron Chef IX: Animal Lord
    Iron Chef X: Mythic Exemplar
    Iron Chef XI: Blade Bravo
    Iron Chef XII: War Mind
    Iron Chef XIII: Vigilante
    Iron Chef XIV: Seeker of the Song
    Iron Chef XV: Drunken Master
    Iron Chef XVI: Assassin
    Iron Chef XVII: Ardent Dilettante
    Iron Chef XVIII: Unseelie Dark Hunter
    Iron Chef XIX: Dread Pirate
    Iron Chef XX: Incandescent Champion
    Iron Chef XXI: Ghostwalker
    Iron Chef XXII: Dervish
    Iron Chef XXIII: Divine Crusader
    Iron Chef XXIV: Tactical Soldier
    Iron Chef XXV: Scion of Tem-Et-Nu
    Iron Chef XXVI: Shadowdancer
    Iron Chef XXVII: Mindbender
    Iron Chef XXVIII: Cryokineticist
    Iron Chef XXIX: Consecrated Harrier
    Iron Chef XXX: Initiate of Pistis Sophia
    Iron Chef XXXI: Shadow Sentinel
    Iron Chef XXXII: Temple Raider of Olidammara
    Iron Chef XXXIII: Drow Judicator
    Iron Chef XXXIV: Dragon Disciple
    Iron Chef XXXV: Death Delver
    Iron Chef XXXVI: Acolyte of the Skin
    Iron Chef XXXVII: Justiciar
    Iron Chef XXXVIII: Hand of the Winged Master
    Iron Chef XXXIX: Renegade Mastermaker
    Iron Chef XL: Nightsong Infiltrator
    Iron Chef XLI: Geomancer
    Iron Chef XLII: Shadowblade
    Iron Chef XLIII: Bladesinger
    Iron Chef XLIV: Urban Soul
    Iron Chef XLV: Talon of Tiamat
    Iron Chef XLVI: Cipher Adept
    Iron Chef XLVII: Cold Iron Warrior
    Iron Chef XLVIII: Shadow Sun Ninja
    Last edited by Kuulvheysoon; 2013-09-12 at 10:34 AM.

    Avatar by Iron Penguin.

    The Power of the Orient: A Wu Jen Handbook

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul S. Kemp
    Frankly, I think the designers and novelists did great work in the post-Spellplague Realms. But, in the end, this wasn’t a new setting. It was the Realms, the Realms 100 years later, and therein lay the problem.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Troll in the Playground
    Join Date
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLIX

    FAQ:
    What's this even about? I'm glad you asked, actually...

    Is Dragon Compendium Allowed? Yes (as well as its Errata), but individual issues of Dragon Magazine are not.

    What about 3.0 materials? 3.0 materials, whether online or in printed form, are allowed unless they've been officially updated to a 3.5 edition.

    Are Dragonlance, Ravenloft, Planescape, Dark Sun, or Kingdoms of Kalamar allowable sources? The Dragonlance Campaign Setting is allowed, but the subsequent books for Dragonlance are considered 3rd party, and are therefore not eligible, despite the "WotC approved" status of those books. The same holds for Oriental Adventures (1st party) and the subsequent Rokugan books (3rd party). Materials from Ravenloft, Planescape, Dark Sun, and Kingdoms of Kalamar are considered 3rd party for purposes of this contest, and are therefore not allowed.

    What about online sources in general? If the online source is a) published by WotC, and b) not replaced by an updated version at a later time, it is eligible. Use it, link it.

    Where's the line drawn with "acceptable/unacceptable" for Unearthed Arcana? This will likely vary a bit from Chairman to Chairman. Item Familiars and Gestalt have always been verboten, since before IC migrated to GitP; don't expect that to change. Flaws have similarly always been noted as warranting a deduction; while I am Chairman, I'm extending that to Traits, though they warrant 1/2 the penalty in Elegance that a Flaw would because they're roughly 1/2 as useful. Alternate spell systems, alternate skill systems and alternate crafting rules all create an uneven playing field, and as such, will be disallowed for as long as I am Chairman. Bloodlines are ripe for abuse, and will be strongly discouraged as long as I am Chairman. Note that judges are allowed to look askance at any use of Unearthed Arcana not specifically mentioned above, at their discretion, and otherwise penalize Elegance according to their preference.

    What, exactly, does the ban on Leadership mean? As folks have started to try to work around the edges of this one, I'm forced to spell it out more plainly. No Leadership, Draconic Cohort, or Feats that grant a similar ability are allowed EXCEPT Wild Cohort while Kuulvheysoon is chairman. Any PrC you choose with Leadership or a Leadership-analog has that ability entirely ignored for this contest, as it may neither be used nor traded away via any means whatsoever.

    What's the minimum score in a category? Assuming an entry is legal, the minimum score in any category is 1. If a judge is convinced that an entry is illegal by the RAW, the judge may give a 0 or decline to score a given entry. Because this contest focuses on Player Characters, an entry that is not technically allowed for a PC, but is viable as an NPC, counts as a legal entry, but may receive a minimum score at the judges' discretion.
    Last edited by Kuulvheysoon; 2013-10-07 at 10:40 PM.

    Avatar by Iron Penguin.

    The Power of the Orient: A Wu Jen Handbook

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul S. Kemp
    Frankly, I think the designers and novelists did great work in the post-Spellplague Realms. But, in the end, this wasn’t a new setting. It was the Realms, the Realms 100 years later, and therein lay the problem.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLIX

    Hmm this thing is very strange and fascinating. I think I really want to try this. If there are too many competitors I may need to back out to judge, though I still do not feel confident enough really to do so effectively. I guess we shall see. Make this a tentative in.

    I would like everyone to be able to make their own but there should probably be some guidelines of some sort there. I don't know, I think using almost anything available would be a little scary...
    Spoiler: Sigs about the Internet and Life
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amidus Drexel View Post
    Yeah... even if it's a fairly friendly place by the internet's standards... it's still the internet. A certain level of pedantic bickering is to be expected.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jay R View Post
    The forums can't universally agree that the sun will rise in the east. Disagreement is what we do.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jacior
    If I can get a pet dinosaur, I totally will. My low wisdom means a raptor looks like a great guard dog.


    Awesome Holy Knight Haluesen avatar done by the uber skilled Grinner!

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGuy

    Join Date
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLIX

    I'll be competing in this one.
    Iron Chef in the Playground veteran since Round IV. Play as me!


    Spoiler
    Show

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Amechra's Avatar

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLIX

    Sweetness! I actually have an entry for this one (lie still my beating heart!)

    I think we should all come up with our own Vampire and Ghost (one build for each); however, if we go this route, I vote that you should give us a secret ingredient we have to follow.

    I'm so excited!
    Quote Originally Posted by segtrfyhtfgj View Post
    door is a fake exterior wall
    Let's play a game, shall we? Current Game: Soul Void. Updates Mondays, 6PM EST.

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Troll in the Playground
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLIX

    Quote Originally Posted by Amechra View Post
    Sweetness! I actually have an entry for this one (lie still my beating heart!)

    I think we should all come up with our own Vampire and Ghost (one build for each); however, if we go this route, I vote that you should give us a secret ingredient we have to follow.

    I'm so excited!
    Actually, reading the class feature again, there's no need for a SI for it. Since it specifies the summon's character level, you have to take their LA into account.

    So 4 levels for the ghost, and a single one for the vampire (ouch!).

    Avatar by Iron Penguin.

    The Power of the Orient: A Wu Jen Handbook

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul S. Kemp
    Frankly, I think the designers and novelists did great work in the post-Spellplague Realms. But, in the end, this wasn’t a new setting. It was the Realms, the Realms 100 years later, and therein lay the problem.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    RangerGuy

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLIX

    Quote Originally Posted by Kuulvheysoon View Post
    Actually, reading the class feature again, there's no need for a SI for it. Since it specifies the summon's character level, you have to take their LA into account.

    So 4 levels for the ghost, and a single one for the vampire (ouch!).
    No? A Vampire's LA is +5 unless my MM is off, so you'd have a 4th level (whatever) vampire or ghost as your minion (apparently ghost is +5 also) as it must be one level lower than your class level

    Edit: Disregard that, WotC caught me in a double typing trap

    Why does my MM do this to me? Under "Sample Elite Vampire" on the page before it says LA: +5, then on the next page under "Creating a Vampire" it says +8, so that's some appealing typing.... Anyone else see that too?

    WotC you confuse me to no end...
    Last edited by Feilith; 2013-09-09 at 07:05 PM.
    A True Paladin

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Amechra's Avatar

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLIX

    Vampire's LA is +8, my friend.
    Quote Originally Posted by segtrfyhtfgj View Post
    door is a fake exterior wall
    Let's play a game, shall we? Current Game: Soul Void. Updates Mondays, 6PM EST.

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLIX

    Quote Originally Posted by Kuulvheysoon View Post
    Actually, reading the class feature again, there's no need for a SI for it. Since it specifies the summon's character level, you have to take their LA into account.

    So 4 levels for the ghost, and a single one for the vampire (ouch!).
    Hmm so be it then. I guess that makes a different sort of challenge for everyone here then.


    According to my MM the LA is also +8. What's going on here?
    Spoiler: Sigs about the Internet and Life
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by Amidus Drexel View Post
    Yeah... even if it's a fairly friendly place by the internet's standards... it's still the internet. A certain level of pedantic bickering is to be expected.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jay R View Post
    The forums can't universally agree that the sun will rise in the east. Disagreement is what we do.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jacior
    If I can get a pet dinosaur, I totally will. My low wisdom means a raptor looks like a great guard dog.


    Awesome Holy Knight Haluesen avatar done by the uber skilled Grinner!

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Dusk Eclipse's Avatar

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLIX

    Don't vampire spawns get lower LA than full Vampires? Perhaps that is the cause of the confusion.
    Just call me Dusk
    Avatar by Ceika

    Dming: Eyes of the Lich Queen IC OOC


  11. - Top - End - #11
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    RangerGuy

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLIX

    Nope, I looked at their sample monster from the page before and saw +5, However i neglected to turn the page to see how to "Make" my vampire.

    Anyone able to confirm this or am i just going loopy?
    Last edited by Feilith; 2013-09-09 at 07:11 PM.
    A True Paladin

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Troll in the Playground
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLIX

    Quote Originally Posted by Dusk Eclipse View Post
    Don't vampire spawns get lower LA than full Vampires? Perhaps that is the cause of the confusion.
    Vampire spawns are LA --, and a totally separate and distinct creature rather than a template.
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLIX

    I cast my vote for using a "stock" vampire/ghost for all entries.

    I reason that this falls under much the same category as the Leadership ban here: "We're making a single dish, not a meal." While the companion vampire/ghost is certainly more a case of "dish + gravy" it presents a more open field than your standard companion critter, essentially another Cohort character.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arbane View Post
    Belkar Bitterleaf isn't "playing against type", he's just a complelely normal halfling.
    No plan survives first contact with the PCs.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLIX

    Heh, I brought out the BoVD to see if any of it was useable in the last competition. I found Vampires here, and had a quick boojie through it, despite the alignment difference.

    I shall see what I can come up with, if I can't, well... I shall judge. It's about time.

    In regards to the Pallor of Death ability, what exactly is a Humanoid Undead creature? Is it any Humanoid with any template of choice (and if so, which/how many/can we stack?) applied to make it undead, or is it just a Humanoid that looks undead?

    What happens if we're not Humanoid/Undead ourselves; if we cast Alter Self, we're stuck as out own type.

    Is the Bonus Feat granted *ANY* feat, provided we qualify (or do we? It's bonus after all)?

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLIX

    Is death touch essentially at will?
    Thanks a lot Gengy for the awesome... just a sec... avatar. :)

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLIX

    Quote Originally Posted by thethird View Post
    Is death touch essentially at will?
    It's a spell-like ability with no listed maximum number of uses. I guess so. As to why it's a SLA, rather than Su, I have no idea. SR: Yes is a bugger.
    Last edited by Vaz; 2013-09-09 at 08:01 PM.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLIX

    Wow, it does have a bad Reflex save!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kuulvheysoon View Post
    Actually, reading the class feature again, there's no need for a SI for it. Since it specifies the summon's character level, you have to take their LA into account.

    So 4 levels for the ghost, and a single one for the vampire (ouch!).
    That is one bad class feature...

    But overall, yeah, I'll probably submit one!
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLIX

    Character concept coming into focus.... feats all lined out... I'm feeling good about where this is going
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLIX

    I'm glad one of us is, Feilith; for the moment, I'm stuck. It may sound really awesome, but on closer examination this SI doesn't really give you much to work with.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arbane View Post
    Belkar Bitterleaf isn't "playing against type", he's just a complelely normal halfling.
    No plan survives first contact with the PCs.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLIX

    Quote Originally Posted by sabelo2000 View Post
    I cast my vote for using a "stock" vampire/ghost for all entries.

    I reason that this falls under much the same category as the Leadership ban here: "We're making a single dish, not a meal." While the companion vampire/ghost is certainly more a case of "dish + gravy" it presents a more open field than your standard companion critter, essentially another Cohort character.
    I am strongly in favor of assuming all entries have the same vamp/ghost. otherwise we're all stuck building multiple characters, essentially the reason that leadership and its analogs are banned. I'm strongly against customizing our minions, it defeats the purpose of iron chef.

    I'm in to cook a thrall of orcus.
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLIX

    In re-reading the summon undead ability, it functions as a summon spell, not as a permanent calling. So even the 9th-level vampire/ghost only exists for, at most, 1 minute per day. I can see this being used to support both viewpoints regarding this ability; for me, I choose to regard it as yet another reason why a stock vampire and ghost should be provided. I don't want to expend time building a fully-realized cohort that will only be around for 1 minute.
    Intelligence is knowing a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is knowing not to put a tomato in a fruit salad.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arbane View Post
    Belkar Bitterleaf isn't "playing against type", he's just a complelely normal halfling.
    No plan survives first contact with the PCs.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLIX

    Quote Originally Posted by Kuulvheysoon View Post
    Actually, reading the class feature again, there's no need for a SI for it. Since it specifies the summon's character level, you have to take their LA into account.

    So 4 levels for the ghost, and a single one for the vampire (ouch!).
    Are you sure? My understanding was that character level=hit dice, and that it's different from effective character level.

    Also, it appears that Thralls of Orcus don't need to meet prereqs for their feats by RAW. This gives rise to two questions.

    1. How is Thrall of Orcus 1 not a hugely popular cheese dip?
    2. Are we really going by that interpretation?

    I've a few ideas kicking around, but I may just sit back and judge this one. I'm due, so we'll see if anything strikes me that I can't resist submitting.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLIX

    Quote Originally Posted by WhamBamSam View Post
    How is Thrall of Orcus 1 not a hugely popular cheese dip?
    Because it requires 3 terrible feats?
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLIX

    gonna participate so hard on this one...

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLIX

    I'm not too good at optimizing so I won't be participating, but Thrall of Orcus was one PrC that caught my eye a while back when reading through BoVD. I will be keeping a close eye on this one and will be looking forward to seeing what you guys cook up.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLIX

    I'm on Thrall of Orcus like stink on rice. Great way to get back into things.

    I'm in favor of the stock vampire/ghost. It levels the playing field more.
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLIX

    So, questions thus far:

    1) do you need to qualify for your bonus feats?
    2) what kind of action is it to activate your stench?
    3) do we treat obese/gaunt as su even though feats (aside from exalted) are always ex?
    4) do we need to qualify for obese/gaunt?
    5) how does pallor of death work? do you use alter self as though you were undead? what does "humanoid undead" mean?
    6) how does death touch interact with iteratives?
    7) what kind of action is it, if any?
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLIX

    Quote Originally Posted by WhamBamSam View Post
    Also, it appears that Thralls of Orcus don't need to meet prereqs for their feats by RAW.
    I'm not sure where you're getting that, WhamBamSam. If you mean the bonus feats awarded every 3 levels, nothing in the RAW allows you to take a feat that you don't qualify for; it just says that you get to take another feat.

    I'll admit the paragraph in Thrall of Orcus does not directly SAY you must qualify for any feats you take; however, contrast this with other bonus feats, such as the Monk's Stunning Fist:

    Quote Originally Posted by SRD
    At 1st level, a monk may select either Improved Grapple or Stunning Fist as a bonus feat. A monk need not have any of the prerequisites normally required for these feats to select them.
    Emphasis mine.

    By my interpretation, you can't skip the prereqs for a feat/class/etc. unless specifically allowed by the rules. Similarly, the lack of specific text stating that you MUST meet requirements, doesn't mean you can skip them.

    Agree/disagree, Playground?
    Edit: ninja'd by Venger.
    Last edited by sabelo2000; 2013-09-10 at 01:25 AM.
    Intelligence is knowing a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is knowing not to put a tomato in a fruit salad.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arbane View Post
    Belkar Bitterleaf isn't "playing against type", he's just a complelely normal halfling.
    No plan survives first contact with the PCs.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLIX

    BoVD ingredient? Nice :)

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLIX

    Quote Originally Posted by WhamBamSam View Post
    Are you sure? My understanding was that character level=hit dice, and that it's different from effective character level.
    I believe this is correct. ECL includes LA, but character level doesn't.

    That said, I just looked pretty hard to find a primary source for this, and I couldn't. The closest thing I found was an SRD quote:
    Use ECL instead of character level to determine how many experience points a monster character needs to reach its next level.
    ...that indicates that ECL and character level are not the same thing.

    However, Urpriest's monster handbook does explicitly say that:
    your Character Level is your total Hit Dice, Racial Hit Dice plus Class Levels.
    ...and given how astonishingly well-researched the rest of it is, I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt here. Urpriest, you happen to be reading this thread? Got a source handy?

    -----

    If this is right, it would obviously make the vampire/ghost summon a lot better.

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