League of Legends LII: Sin of the Blind Monk

[Forrestfire]

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I'm continuously amazed at how close these games manage to be until something finally happens to shift it.

EDIT: Like that last fight, for instance

[Eldariel]

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I disagree about Puszu. I think the causality is backwards: Yellowstar is roaming because they can't handle the 2v2. Fnatic has had to push their strategies to the max because Royal is just outplaying them in the micro.

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Yellow always roams on Leona. That's in no ways unique to this game. Besides, it's not just the 2v2; they leave Puszu alone in 1v1 with Renek or whatever.

[Anarion]

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That was just too many cleanses and protection spells on Uzi.

[NoobForHire]

So after doing surprisingly bad with Sona for several games, I decided to get Leona.

The difference. Just wow.

I think I found my new main support.

[Olinser]

So after doing surprisingly bad with Sona for several games, I decided to get Leona.

The difference. Just wow.

I think I found my new main support.

Well, the difference is sustain lane to kill lane. Sona has great poke, but not a lot of kill potential before 6 without a gank or mistake by your opponent. But later on, Sona's ult, heals, and speed buff give a BIG boost to your team.

Leona's time to shine is honestly pre-6, and right around 6. Especially with her passive, a good all-in can easily gib a support, and possibly a double kill with a good AD to follow you. But the longer the game goes on, the less relevant Leona becomes. Her passive becomes less relevant as HP pools expand, and as a support she just doesn't have the tankyness to initiate, and her ult is inferior to Sona's ult. Leona also is extremely vulnerable if the enemy AD gets ahead of her - if they give up first blood or a couple kills early, she can't go in, and she's relegated to just hanging out hoping she can catch somebody out. Sona can still be relevant sustaining her AD if they are behind.

So the 2 are basically whether you like to play safe and farm early, and contribute a lot to teamfights, or if you want to play an extremely aggressive early game.

I favor Sona personally in solo que, just because I've found that I can save my AD from themselves with the sustain and a good ult, while on Leona half the time the AD doesn't follow me in when I leap on the enemy laner.

[Siosilvar]

and her ult is indistiguishable from Sona's ult

FTFY. Maybe in Plat and up people stop grouping up and making landing Leona ults easy, but it hasn't happened to me in high Silver. There's almost no difference between my Leona ults and my Sona ults, except that I can be farther away with Leona and it's not my only engage.

I also think you're downplaying Leona's late game. I definitely agree that a behind Leona is very behind, but it doesn't take that much tankiness to be able to throw out your ult and a rotation or two in a fight. With her armor/MR boost, you can get by with Ruby Sightstone and something else that gives any health. You can't be the sole initiator, but for a support slot it's very respectable.

[NoobForHire]

Her passive becomes less relevant as HP pools expand, and as a support she just doesn't have the tankyness to initiate, and her ult is inferior to Sona's ult.

I have a much easier time landing Leona's ult effectively, mainly because of the much longer range. The stun from the Q with its fairly short cooldown is also a huge reason for my liking Leona. It also certainly doesn't hurt that with my W I don't melt nearly as fast as I would as Sona.

Don't get me wrong, I do love Sona. I just feel that, at least in lower elos, Leona has a bigger effect on laning and teamfights.

[Ashen Lilies]

Random, probably stupid idea: Run Leona bot with a 'support' Jungler like Nunu. Nunu picks up a Sightstone and the bulk of the warding, since he doesn't really need items to be relevant, being Nunu, while Leona picks up the Locket and cheap tank items. Past midgame or so they've effectively switched 'roles' with Nunu being the vision-bot support (with Smite) and Leona being the tanky initiator you would normally find from the jungle. Leona starts taking farm mid-game onwards, too, while Nunu stops killing creeps except to secure objectives.

[Godskook]

FTFY. Maybe in Plat and up people stop grouping up and making landing Leona ults easy, but it hasn't happened to me in high Silver. There's almost no difference between my Leona ults and my Sona ults, except that I can be farther away with Leona and it's not my only engage.

No you didn't fix anything. The ults have different ranges(Leona's is longer ranged), different AoEs(Sona has an easier time getting large chunks of the enemy team in hers and its nearly undodgeable point-blank) and different CDs(seriously, Leona's ult CD is stupidly short at higher levels, especially when compared to other AoE stun ults). They're similar(in as much as they're AoE stuns), but not really the 'same'.

@Olinser, its tough to call either one better, but I'd say that Leona's arguably pries slightly ahead. Between the CD and and the range, Leona is going to find more opportunities and more often than Sona could. Besides, part of the strength of Sona's ult is that it comes on her kit(nobody else has an AoE stun, a heal, auras and debuffs).

[Winthur]

Random, probably stupid idea: Run Leona bot with a 'support' Jungler like Nunu. Nunu picks up a Sightstone and the bulk of the warding, since he doesn't really need items to be relevant, being Nunu, while Leona picks up the Locket and cheap tank items. Past midgame or so they've effectively switched 'roles' with Nunu being the vision-bot support (with Smite) and Leona being the tanky initiator you would normally find from the jungle. Leona starts taking farm mid-game onwards, too, while Nunu stops killing creeps except to secure objectives.

Nunu scales better than Leona overall though when it comes to damage and even levels, and has no natural tanky steroids so with this method you're proposing Nunu is gonna have weak teamfighting.
Besides, Nunu is better at clearing than Leona ever will be solely due to Consume (though Blood Boil and free mana help) while Leona's gonna take ages taking any farm from the jungle and the farm on the lane is better used on her allies.
You honestly don't really need anything but a Ruby Sightstone and Boots on Leona if the game calls for it (i.e. you have to buy lots of Oracles and extra wards).

Also CC never stops becoming relevant and Leona is always capable of hitting a game-changing ult and stuns even if she dies in fights (which is okay). If you get the laning phase rolling for you with some assists and stuff and outlevel the enemy you are actually very threatening and her late game has a lot of play potential just because of the CC.

[Olinser]

No you didn't fix anything. The ults have different ranges(Leona's is longer ranged), different AoEs(Sona has an easier time getting large chunks of the enemy team in hers and its nearly undodgeable point-blank) and different CDs(seriously, Leona's ult CD is stupidly short at higher levels, especially when compared to other AoE stun ults). They're similar(in as much as they're AoE stuns), but not really the 'same'.

@Olinser, its tough to call either one better, but I'd say that Leona's arguably pries slightly ahead. Between the CD and and the range, Leona is going to find more opportunities and more often than Sona could. Besides, part of the strength of Sona's ult is that it comes on her kit(nobody else has an AoE stun, a heal, auras and debuffs).

Never said one was better, I just said that I personally prefer Sona. Both are certainly viable - Fnatic has played a lot of Leona support in worlds, and Sona is always a high pick as well.

[Olinser]

FTFY. Maybe in Plat and up people stop grouping up and making landing Leona ults easy, but it hasn't happened to me in high Silver. There's almost no difference between my Leona ults and my Sona ults, except that I can be farther away with Leona and it's not my only engage.

I also think you're downplaying Leona's late game. I definitely agree that a behind Leona is very behind, but it doesn't take that much tankiness to be able to throw out your ult and a rotation or two in a fight. With her armor/MR boost, you can get by with Ruby Sightstone and something else that gives any health. You can't be the sole initiator, but for a support slot it's very respectable.

Uh.... what?

A near-instant line stun is the same as a slower, ranged circle AOE that only stuns in the center? Why, just because they both happen to stun? The 2 are totally different.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Uh.... what?

Siosilvar is saying that there should be a difference, but because people keep grouping up the Ults are basically capable of easily doing the exact same thing: Stunning almost all of the enemy team.

[Artanis]

Sona is always a high pick as well.

Funny you should mention Sona being picked...I got a bit bored (and curious...and OCD...and Mathematician-y*) and started checking the pick/ban rates from the World Championships group stage. I'm not quite done yet and I haven't been tracking the order, but so far, Sona's total count is nuts.


I'll post my results in a little while when they're done.



*DON'T JUDGE ME! *sobs*

[NoobForHire]

On another note, when I play at my parents' house, I can't connect to the chat server.

I can't see who's online, can't pm people, can't invite/be invited to games, and can't see any chat in the pregame/postgame lobby. The only time I can talk is during the match.

Anyone have an idea on how to fix this? (it's not a huge deal as I rarely play there)

[Legoshrimp]

Funny you should mention Sona being picked...I got a bit bored (and curious...and OCD...and Mathematician-y*) and started checking the pick/ban rates from the World Championships group stage. I'm not quite done yet and I haven't been tracking the order, but so far, Sona's total count is nuts.


I'll post my results in a little while when they're done.


*DON'T JUDGE ME! *sobs*

Sorry to say this but you may have been wasting your time.http://lol.gamepedia.com/Season_3_Wo...hip/Statistics
Zed still has 100% pick/ban. In my experience this site has been pretty good.

[Olinser]

On another note, when I play at my parents' house, I can't connect to the chat server.

I can't see who's online, can't pm people, can't invite/be invited to games, and can't see any chat in the pregame/postgame lobby. The only time I can talk is during the match.

Anyone have an idea on how to fix this? (it's not a huge deal as I rarely play there)

The chat server is different from the game.

Did you check the line speed? If the speed is slow, and/or somebody else in the house is doing a high bandwidth activity like streaming, the game can have a lot of trouble connecting to the chat server - when I forget to shut of BitTorrent before booting up LoL, it never connects to the chat server.

[Legoshrimp]

On another note, when I play at my parents' house, I can't connect to the chat server.

I can't see who's online, can't pm people, can't invite/be invited to games, and can't see any chat in the pregame/postgame lobby. The only time I can talk is during the match.

Anyone have an idea on how to fix this? (it's not a huge deal as I rarely play there)

My guess is that the ports used by the chat servers are blocked by your router. Not really sure though. When I get home I will try to Google around a bit.

[Artanis]

Sorry to say this but you may have been wasting your time.http://lol.gamepedia.com/Season_3_Wo...hip/Statistics
Zed still has 100% pick/ban. In my experience this site has been pretty good.

Thanks for the link . It makes me sad that all that work came to naught though


And from the looks of it, at the very least Zed, Shen, Zed, Corki, Zed, Ahri, and Zed really need to be looked at for possible nerfs.

[toasty]

Thanks for the link . It makes me sad that all that work came to naught though


And from the looks of it, at the very least Zed, Shen, Zed, Corki, Zed, Ahri, and Zed really need to be looked at for possible nerfs.

Shen has been like this basically since forever. His kit is inherently powerful for competitive play.

[ChaosOS]

Shen has also not been particularly impressive in LCS; He's a staple because every top laner and their mother knows how to shen, and his role as a wall in lane that stalemates is not replicated by too many other top laners. His uniqueness is really why he's common, not so much his strength.

Zed on the other hand has some serious issues in terms of his kit honestly is just stupid powerful at the cost of being obtuse. Its why peons like everyone in this thread are pretty meh on him, but Faker is godly on him. The only way to nerf zed is fundamentally nerf his kit or just resign him to never being picked outside of LCS. More CD nerfs might be really useful, especially on the ult.

[MCerberus]

Got another penta today.
As Teemo.

Their Ezreal shifted onto a mushroom and hit his whole team. His team that was 3 ADCs, Jayce, and Ryze. Liandre's/Crystal Scepter/Morello did the rest. I am become Teemo, destroyer of worlds. Look upon my shrooms, ye mighty and despair.

[Siosilvar]

Siosilvar is saying that there should be a difference, but because people keep grouping up the Ults are basically capable of easily doing the exact same thing: Stunning almost all of the enemy team.

^ This.

When I use Leona's ult in a teamfight, 2-3 people get stunned (rarely 4).
When I use Sona's ult in a teamfight, 2-3 people get stunned (rarely, but slightly more often than Leona, 4).

Both are incredibly easy to land - Sona's is this huge line with a short travel time, and Leona's doesn't take any longer to land* and I'm guessing calculates the stun from the edge of champions, not their centers.

It's only outside of a teamfight that I can notice the differences in high Silver - Leona won't hit both enemy laners unless they're mispositioned, but she has a range advantage and, to use Kook's wording, a stupid short cooldown. Sona can't catch people out as easily - Leona's got almost half again her range if all you care about is the slow, but trades long range for not being quite as good an ult at short range.

*at max range and a projectile speed of ~2000 assumed for Sona; Leona's got some leeway there but Sona's is quicker to land at up to half range for sure.

[ex cathedra]

Zed on the other hand has some serious issues in terms of his kit honestly is just stupid powerful at the cost of being obtuse. Its why peons like everyone in this thread are pretty meh on him, but Faker is godly on him. The only way to nerf zed is fundamentally nerf his kit or just resign him to never being picked outside of LCS. More CD nerfs might be really useful, especially on the ult.

Uh, Zed has more problems than that. I'd agree that most Zed players are indeed fairly "meh," but the issue is that meh Zed players can still use him really effectively. You don't need to hit triple Qs in teamfights or consistently hit double Qs in lane as Zed for him to be a strong champion. Deathmark pops most champions in less than 6 keypresses with only a single shadow out.

Edit:
Shen is fine (he's good because he's both a split-pusher and an anti-assassin), Corki's R is a bit too efficient and Triforce gives ranged champions too much MS, Ahri needs some *very* minor base damage/cooldown changes to make her less of a "I'm good at everything!" champion. Balance as a whole is pretty good.

[Nadevoc]

Shen has also not been particularly impressive in LCS; He's a staple because every top laner and their mother knows how to shen, and his role as a wall in lane that stalemates is not replicated by too many other top laners. His uniqueness is really why he's common, not so much his strength.

Zed on the other hand has some serious issues in terms of his kit honestly is just stupid powerful at the cost of being obtuse. Its why peons like everyone in this thread are pretty meh on him, but Faker is godly on him. The only way to nerf zed is fundamentally nerf his kit or just resign him to never being picked outside of LCS. More CD nerfs might be really useful, especially on the ult.

I really don't think nerfing the CDs (particularly ult) is the right way to go with nerfing Zed. Right now, Zed's issue (as I see it) is that when his ults up, he insta-gibs someone. He also does a ton of damage in AoE for teamfights.

Now yeah, up his CDs, it's longer between basically free kills, but you've still got the issue of "Zed's ult is up, he kills someone".

I'm thinking something along the lines of one of these:
-Razor Shuriken's damage to first target reduced to 75/105/135/165/195 (from 75/115/155/195/235)
-Living Shadow's bonus attack damage reduced to 5/7.5/10/12.5/15%

And
Death Mark's damage reduced to 100% AD + 10/20/30% of damage dealt

Effectively, I don't want him to be able to just blow up anyone 1v1. Particularly not while tossing around a ton of AoE damage. This should still let him destroy someone that's glass cannon if he's got some items, but tankier people should be able to weather his burst.

Siosilvar is saying that there should be a difference, but because people keep grouping up the Ults are basically capable of easily doing the exact same thing: Stunning almost all of the enemy team.

Maybe, but I play in high silver (the MMR he mentioned), and there's a huge difference. It's easy to HIT as many people with Leona's ult, but not to STUN as many.

EDIT: Also, with the different delays, at this level Sona's ult is much easier to hit Ezreal and other blinkers with

[Godskook]

Never said one was better, I just said that I personally prefer Sona.

Her passive becomes less relevant as HP pools expand, and as a support she just doesn't have the tankyness to initiate, and her ult is inferior to Sona's ult.

Wat?!?!

Siosilvar is saying that there should be a difference, but because people keep grouping up the Ults are basically capable of easily doing the exact same thing: Stunning almost all of the enemy team.

Except that if there's zero difference in the impact of the ults per cast, Leona's is literally 50%-100%(at level 6 and 16 respectively) stronger than Sona's because of the CD. It also may or may not hurt more depending on if you want to count Leona's passive or not.

[SlyGuyMcFly]

Got another penta today.
As Teemo.

Their Ezreal shifted onto a mushroom and hit his whole team. His team that was 3 ADCs, Jayce, and Ryze. Liandre's/Crystal Scepter/Morello did the rest. I am become Teemo, destroyer of worlds. Look upon my shrooms, ye mighty and despair.

You beautiful person, you.

Shen has been like this basically since forever. His kit is inherently powerful for competitive play.

I assume the idea has been considered and rejected before, but why not give Shen's ult the TF treatment?

[ex cathedra]

I really don't think nerfing the CDs (particularly ult) is the right way to go with nerfing Zed. Right now, Zed's issue (as I see it) is that when his ults up, he insta-gibs someone. He also does a ton of damage in AoE for teamfights.

i actually hate your solution. zed already has more counterplay than people give him credit for, particularly late game.

Effectively, I don't want him to be able to just blow up anyone 1v1.

but that's kind of the point of playing zed. there's nothing innately wrong with him being the best duelist in the game; i mean, someone has to be. He already gets trashed by zhonya's/QSS/peel.

[Math_Mage]

I assume the idea has been considered and rejected before, but why not give Shen's ult the TF treatment?

Nobody would play him again until Riot made him into a good jungler.

[Nadevoc]

but that's kind of the point of playing zed. there's nothing innately wrong with him being the best duelist in the game; i mean, someone has to be. He already gets trashed by zhonya's/QSS/peel.

I think the point of playing Zed is being able to hop around and completely murder a SQUISHY target. Not being able to instantly murder ANY target.