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  1. - Top - End - #91
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    Default Re: League of Legends LII: Sin of the Blind Monk

    IIRC teams take turns to ban, first to pick Ban 1 champion, next the other team bans 2, first team bans another 2 and second team finally bans one last champion.
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  2. - Top - End - #92
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    Default Re: League of Legends LII: Sin of the Blind Monk

    Quote Originally Posted by Dusk Eclipse View Post
    IIRC teams take turns to ban, first to pick Ban 1 champion, next the other team bans 2, first team bans another 2 and second team finally bans one last champion.
    No, that's only for picks; bans are in turn on 1-1-1-1-1-1 basis. Currently we're working with 6 bans total, 3 for each team. Team with the first ban also thus picks first (which is kinda crucial for the enemy team so they get the last ban to sort of have the last say in which champs are in).

    And yeah, player-targeted bans only really occur in Challenger elo play where you pretty much know everyone you could plausibly face anyways (and have all of them on your /f list) and in tournament play (where you obviously know your enemy team in their entirety).

    However, personal preference bans/bans based on your own intended pick (e.g. "I don't want to deal with Kassadin since I'm playing TF") of course happen all the time and thus the ban phase is fairly fluid in solo queue ranked.
    Last edited by Eldariel; 2013-09-11 at 09:39 AM.
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  3. - Top - End - #93
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    Default Re: League of Legends LII: Sin of the Blind Monk

    It shows that I don't play ranked (yet).
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    Default Re: League of Legends LII: Sin of the Blind Monk

    Quote Originally Posted by Dusk Eclipse View Post
    It shows that I don't play ranked (yet).
    I suggest just diving headfirst into Draft Normals. I find it more enjoyable, personally (clearer structure on champ select leads to more reasonable teamcomps and some communication fairly often, and bans means you don't have to deal with Snowball Champ X if you don't feel like it), and it's basically just like Ranked minus the ranking. It's a sort of an easy way to ease into ranked and it's as good a way as any to enjoy normals, provided you enjoy normals.
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    Default Re: League of Legends LII: Sin of the Blind Monk

    If I understand it correctly, when banning, its banned for each team. So each captain bans three, meaning there are 6 champs that are unavailable.

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    Default Re: League of Legends LII: Sin of the Blind Monk

    I was playing blind pick since I didn't have the 16 champions for draft, but it seems that the free champion count if they don't overlap. So I guess this week I can play draft.
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    Default Re: League of Legends LII: Sin of the Blind Monk

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivellius View Post
    Some combination of Thresh, Blitzcrank, Vayne, Zac, Lee Sin, Zed, Nasus, maybe Malphite or Shen. A lot of these depend on team compositions for me, but I hate Wither and those hooks (easier just to not play against them). Thresh is just silly anyway for everything he can do. Lee Sin and Zed are incredibly frustrating as well. *is Gold player*



    I feel like KZ is probably better in a lane, but his jungle isn't terrible. W slows now without even being evolved. But yes, he does make for a good assassin in lane.
    I also see a decent amount of Jarvan, Amumu, Zed, Aatrox and Kassadin bans.
    Last edited by Olinser; 2013-09-11 at 10:10 AM.

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    Default Re: League of Legends LII: Sin of the Blind Monk

    Quote Originally Posted by Hullabaloo View Post
    If I understand it correctly, when banning, its banned for each team. So each captain bans three, meaning there are 6 champs that are unavailable.
    This is correct. The primary purpose of bans is to remove champions you don't want to deal with (flavor of the month/OP champions), champions that counter whatever you want to pick and generally problematic champions on the level you play at (e.g. snowballing assassins).

    If you're the first pick, you can try to leave something open to pick it up (or two somethings so enemy only has the option to ban one with their last pick and you can snag up the other; at this point a savvy enemy leaves both unbanned and takes the other one). Of course, note that champion power is almost completely eclipsed by player skill on almost all levels of play, and thus it's more important to make sure you get champs you're good at than the latest FotM you're not very good at (and don't expect to trade unless someone specifically expresses desire to).
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  9. - Top - End - #99
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    Default Re: League of Legends LII: Sin of the Blind Monk

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldariel View Post
    This is correct. The primary purpose of bans is to remove champions you don't want to deal with (flavor of the month/OP champions), champions that counter whatever you want to pick and generally problematic champions on the level you play at (e.g. snowballing assassins).

    If you're the first pick, you can try to leave something open to pick it up (or two somethings so enemy only has the option to ban one with their last pick and you can snag up the other; at this point a savvy enemy leaves both unbanned and takes the other one). Of course, note that champion power is almost completely eclipsed by player skill on almost all levels of play, and thus it's more important to make sure you get champs you're good at than the latest FotM you're not very good at (and don't expect to trade unless someone specifically expresses desire to).
    It is also worth noting that a champion must be owned by somebody on the enemy team for it to be available on the ban list.

    So if nobody on the enemy team owns Zed, he won't appear on your ban list.

    Trades generally only happen if you convince somebody to first pick a sought-after champion for you (if he is available, I will almost always try to get my team to first pick Thresh and trade me).

    At higher levels people will start trying to pick the support/jungler first so they can't be counter-picked.
    Last edited by Olinser; 2013-09-11 at 10:17 AM.

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    Default Re: League of Legends LII: Sin of the Blind Monk

    Quote Originally Posted by Olinser View Post
    At higher levels people will start trying to pick the support/jungler first so they can't be counter-picked.
    Of course, at lower levels you inevitably get top, mid, and either jungle or ADC all in the first three picks unless you have a support main in the room.

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    Default Re: League of Legends LII: Sin of the Blind Monk

    So I finally convince my wife to play PvP, we decide to just duo for bot lane. One person wants it instead, but we called first and said we'd be awesome. The other three leave at the beginning complaining of 400 ping. This is what happens.

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    We got 1 tower.

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    Default Re: League of Legends LII: Sin of the Blind Monk

    That's beautiful

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    Default Re: League of Legends LII: Sin of the Blind Monk

    Quote Originally Posted by Merellis View Post
    So I finally convince my wife to play PvP, we decide to just duo for bot lane. One person wants it instead, but we called first and said we'd be awesome. The other three leave at the beginning complaining of 400 ping. This is what happens.

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    We got 1 tower.
    It happens.

    Report them and move on.

    I had a couple absolutely horrific provisional games when we started ranked.

    By far the two worst were the guy that calls AD, then proceeds to pick VOLIBEAR.

    The other one was just an absolutely abysmal Ezrael. To give you a snapshot of how bad he was, at one point it was pushed to our tower, it was ONLY Graves in lane at half health, and we were both at full health (I was on Sona).

    I flash and ult him, then exhaust him. Ezrael sits at the tower KILLING MINIONS while Graves kills me, and THEN he rushes out at Graves with zero mana after I am already dead, and gets killed too. I think he finished that game 1/11.
    Last edited by Olinser; 2013-09-11 at 10:46 AM.

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    Default Re: League of Legends LII: Sin of the Blind Monk

    Quote Originally Posted by Merellis View Post
    We got 1 tower.
    Ha, made a good go of it.

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    Default Re: League of Legends LII: Sin of the Blind Monk

    Quote Originally Posted by NineThePuma View Post
    That's beautiful
    I was surprised to find my rage turned to joy as we started just ripping them apart. We couldn't deal with Riven split-pushing, but they couldn't even kill us in a 2v4 when not under tower at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Olinser View Post
    It happens.

    Report them and move on.

    I had a couple absolutely horrific provisional games when we started ranked.

    By far the two worst were the guy that calls AD, then proceeds to pick VOLIBEAR.

    The other one was just an absolutely abysmal Ezrael. To give you a snapshot of how bad he was, at one point it was pushed to our tower, it was ONLY Graves in lane at half health, and we were both at full health (I was on Sona).

    I flash and ult him, then exhaust him. Ezrael sits at the tower KILLING MINIONS while Graves kills me, and THEN he rushes out at Graves with zero mana after I am already dead, and gets killed too. I think he finished that game 1/11.
    Oh those sound bad, and we did report them because holy crap. I don't think I can be convinced that it was really 400 Ping that caused this. Disagreement on who goes where in Champ Select, followed by none of them buying a darn thing and just quitting while saying that they have 400 ping.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hullabaloo View Post
    Ha, made a good go of it.
    More out of spite and boredom than anything. We didn't expect it to go so well, but then we started pulling ahead because they had 3 vs our 2 in the lane at all times with them sharing the farm and me just last-hitting as fast as I could.

    Once I got the IE it turned into ridiculousness as I could 3-shot Sona, Twitch, and Fizz. Sad to say that it was there that they finally all started split pushing for all they were worth.
    Last edited by Merellis; 2013-09-11 at 10:59 AM.

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    Default Re: League of Legends LII: Sin of the Blind Monk

    Spoilered for soraka discussion (and thus length, cause this a a looooooooooooooooong one)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godskook View Post
    1.Infinite sustain Soraka is gone man. Just let her go.
    I know, but I don't want to, you know...
    2.Soraka's W heal is on part with other support heals. Sona has slightly worse healing per second and almost exactly the same healing per mana(important on a support's income), but Sona can AoE CC a team, provides choice of (burst/slow/damage reduction), and just generally be relevant in situations outside healing her ADC and silencing a DPS Mage(the only class that really cares about silences).
    Except that Sona's heal is only useful out of combat. In combat it's like goggles: Zhey do Nasing! Soraka's heal allows a carry to carefully venture out there again to start farming agian without fear of being oneshot. Sona's heal needs to be used at least 3 times to warrant that kind of safety (not much, but some)

    Another problem, because of other skills being useful Sona can't afford to go full blown healing continually. Soraka for the first 10 minutes can (and then she gets philo and never has any problems again). In every lane I have played against Sona, Sona can't keep up with Soraka in carry sustain by miles. Which is fine because Sona has other uses that Sorakla doesn't have. Infinite sustain soraka may not be truly infinite anymore, but it's still damn much.
    3.Nothing in Soraka's kit stops an all-in. *NOTHING* It can swing a close fight, but not every fight in bot lane is close. If you want a disengage support, go learn to play Janna, that's what she does best.
    Not what I'd piocked for a disengaging support, I'd picked Zyra, but fair enough. though Soraka certainly hurts combos and can enable baiting like no other (possible exception of Taric)

    Its actually becoming common in solo queue ranked, these days, at least at my level, to see a support grab ignite. I'm not sure I agree with it, but its common enough that calling it "freakishly rare" means you're really not aware of it.
    I guess I'm too low for that then. I commonly (99,9%) see exhaust, other options include teleport or even clairvoyance. The funny thing is that Exhaust does work wonders on botlanes and later in teamfights. They wreck without any risk of 'ks-ing' which in soloQ turns adc's into ragequitters

    Additionally, some ADCs have methods to reduce healing in their kits, including Varus, Miss Fortune, and Tristana.
    Mostly the last 2 are problematic (most notably MF). I grant you that.

    Which was kinda his point.



    You can't silence Leona if she jumps your carry. Her W is already up, she can have her Q up before she goes in, and she's already used her E(and probably her R). Silencing her after that does -nothing- to stop her ADC from murdering yours. You can't silence Blitz after a good hook because he's over 1k units away from you. Thresh, you can silence, but that doesn't stop lantern, so the jungler he dragged along is now on top of your carry, what do?
    Blitz>stay behind minions and ward like you're father christmas to always have vision. junglers->GTFO and make sure you have vision. Also, this trick has a telltale: a freaking half lane wide blue beam. Not to sound disrespectful, but that is a dead giveaway to back up. On Leona you have a point though. Point in case, IIRC your range on E is bigger then her range on E, thus vision solves everything. Tada, Q and W are wasted since leona can't connect in time.

    Its probably just you, man. I mean, a good Soraka player can make it work for a long time, but you're fighting an uphill battle against supports that are just better at what they do than she is.
    Well, every support has it's strengths, some of which are better for the team then others. And You are right in the fact that it is uphill. And If I can show that one shoudln't underestimate a soraka in lane I have a good game.
    Quote Originally Posted by Laudandus View Post
    Last time Soraka was good, I stopped maining ad carry.

    Bethor it is worth noting that silence is actually very good vs assassins and her heal gives a massive and very useful armor buff, but all that means is that she's much worse than Sona, not strictly worse. Soraka matchups are almost all just farm lanes where Soraka gets outscaled, except actually Soraka can't even farm right. She's probably okay vs the defensive/bad supports (Janna/Alistar, respectively) except that she gets outscaled really really badly by them.

    Remember that when evaluating your personal experience of a champion, Socratov, you are weighing experience that is both low-level (I'm guessing, based on your opinion on Soraka) and extremely biased - low-level people don't do well against champions they haven't seen much, especially champions they haven't seen much that play differently from most champions.
    Except that I have actually little to no professional play seen of her. So In order to judge her effectiveness I can only follow my own experience. One thing though: Soraka is the cheapest support out there but neglected becuase other supports at least look cooler and have fancy CC And because the pros play other champs and they think they can do as well on them like the dutiful sheep they are It doesn't explain the effect when I played with a friend ranked against gold level opponents who should know (for reference, [epeen]played 3, all soraka, all win [/epeen])
    Quote Originally Posted by Anarion View Post
    As a further point about Soraka, I tend to dread playing with her in soloqueue if I see the support pick her. I always watch them die and then they type something in chat like "My heal was gonna be back up in 2 more seconds."

    If the person didn't have the heal for two seconds, why was he in range of being killed?!
    and there is your answer: because common sense is so rare, it's a super power.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mabn View Post
    as an addendum to this discusion I will note that Soraka is both strong and fun in the Domminion and TT games I have encountered or played her (in ARAM she's exactly as broken as everyone else with a heal). This leads me to suspect that she may have Karma syndrome where her design is fine but she isn't and can not be a bot lane gold-less support. Mid lane she's a fairly strong bully who scales pretty well.
    well, Dominion and Aram are broken to hell and back anyway, and Soraka can actually function without money, instead buying items for her team instead ofher own, done it once. Too funny: Soraka with cooldown boots, improved aegis (yes, back then), zeke's, will. The result was glorious, and people thought I was trolling until we started teamfighting and pushing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Cardew View Post
    Dominion and Twisted Treeline both have enhanced mana regen, that really allows her to spam her spells. And didn't we have a discussion about mid lane Sona in the last 10 or so pages on the old thread?

    EDIT: Read Sona for some strange reason, scratch that part. But the point about enhance mana regen still stands. Plus given the rampant nature of bruiser on 3v3 the armor buff on her heal is going to be REALLY good.
    Soraka rarely goes OOM, unless she levels starcall, which she shouldn't until forced otherwise
    Quote Originally Posted by Mabn View Post
    mana is and issue in mid, I really wish her e was just a silence that gave her passive mana regen when leveled sometimes. Nevertheless itemizing mana on ap casters is really good right now so it mostly just stops her from shutting down her opponent before ~ level 5 when she can get a chalice or tear.
    like above, with 1 questioin: what are you doing in mid anyway? Her E is free to cast btw (in mid lvl this one first), and her heal you actually want to spend mana on (level this one second). So... I think something, somewhere went terribly wrong...
    Quote Originally Posted by Winthur View Post
    (I meant to send this post a good 6 hours ago but, alas, internet managed to die right before I hit Submit Reply, so I went to sleep. So now it has responses to additional comments on the matter)



    Ignite is picked very often when
    1) you want to snowball because it grants more kill potential than Exhaust
    2) you see a heavy sustain support / a troubling sustain champion in any lane in Draft mode
    3) you don't necessarily need Exhaust (Draft mode or team comp)
    You see it quite a lot in pro matches.
    In SoloQ you want it desperately becuase it gives a "NO!" button on enemy carries mitigating a lot of damage versus your team (and giving time to burst carreis down until sustain kicks back in)
    Starcall at level 1 yields hilarious results especially with something like Doran's Shield as a starting item. It's some enormous cheese and I never even implied it's a "mainstream" strategy, but it has the potential to do some massive level 1 damage and pressure. It can work on people who seek all-ins at early levels who underestimate it's damage. It has a funny synergy with Barrier (that people don't normally pick on supports). It's something I threw out there as a possible solution to Soraka's bad level 1.
    while funny, it's not something you do as a support since you want your carry to grow fat like gragas. Though it could be fun to try it once in an insanely agressive comp like graves or something...

    Blitzcrank / Thresh hooks your AD carry, Leona initiates on you. Your silence lasts 1.5 seconds and you don't max it first. It doesn't even stop anyone, they can just keep following and apply that CC anyway. It gives time to Flash or dash away maybe. You still are forced to back off as soon as possible and can continue to take free damage. Silence doesn't even stop stuff like Thresh's empowered autoattacks.
    hooks are meant to be dodged, else your carry is likely an idiot or you are not warding the way you should. Seriously, no support has an answer for a hook. That's not just Soraka, that is any support, becuase the solution is something else then the support actually does.
    Decent warding and using your skills is how every other freaking support wins lanes. Soraka just has way less ways to do anything because she has no good peel, no initiation whatsoever, her amount of poke rivals Janna's poke at best, CC of dubious usefulness in the laning phase and her early game heal heals for nothing and has a huge cooldown. Engaging on her early and often emphasizes her weaknesses.
    yes if you generalise that much back that's how any lane wins. Seriously, wards are op, better nerf that Riot. But Soraka has the ability to completely reverse the hunter/hunted role in a gank or teamfight. Not many champs that can do thatwith permanent results (I.E. hp and removing casting initiative). And If you have nevcer seen it on your side I weep for you for haveing seen no decent Soraka.
    If you wanted to outsustain your enemies while possibly outpoking them or winning engages/counterengages why not just pick Sona? Or Nami?
    Sona's sustain looks good, but lacks IMO like presented above. Nami I haven't played a lot, but assuming your enemies are no idiots, the sustain is lacking for it's cooldown and manacost.[/quote]

    Exactly how tanky are you, ever, that Starcall provides you with relevant amounts of shred on anyone but the enemy frontline who should have plenty of resistances in most comps?

    [/quote] not much, but the enemy has other problems like my mid and adc laying waste to everything/ Plus the range is quite something
    Assuming you meant silence by stun, "using your head" seems to imply the enemy support is incapable of using his and doesn't prepare extra vision and vision denial in the form of pink wards in order to commit to aggression.
    they should, but I generally buy more pinks then the other support (only once was I outpinked), often playing agianst twitch or eve does that to you.
    Assuming she hits the Zenith Blade right before you silence her, most of the level 1 silence is going to waste while she's in transit and then Leona still has ample time to apply Shield of Daybreak as soon as the silence wears off assuming she didn't pop W and Q right before using Zenith Blade which a lot of people do. Especially since if the Leona coordinates with her carry then they're just going to rush in together and Leonas tend to space out their abilities to proc the Sunlight passive as much as possible.
    assuming that, yes, however my 'protip' here is you don't let her. Use the range, make yourself last target instead of your carry (now she has to choose) and heal who is lowest (usually yourself). Presto: no kill for leona. BTW, it took me a while to learn how to play against her. Playing her myself has helped me a lot about uncovering her weaknesess

    You yourself don't do any damage (unless you go Starcall cheese) and can't peel. Unless Leona players you play with push lane to the turret, which, by the way, doesn't allow them to exert any aggression at all and thus should be avoided, getting in close isn't a problem.
    I always expect Leona to (after some harrassment) dive the turret. Sadly most carries don't follow up ending up oin a dead leona. Bu tI have seen it done lots. especially at lvl 6-7

    Well, I'm assuming you mean that supports work off of people forgetting what they do. So I guess you never met Blitzcranks that constantly kill your vision with Oracles and hit great grabs from great places, Jannas that reset entire teamfights and shut down entire team compositions, Lulus or Sonas who get to do amazing engages and disengages... Hell, all Thresh has to do is put out a lantern, he has a ton of amazing skills other than his hook. Meanwhile Elise is mostly picked for the fact she has a ton of natural damage from the get go and a stun so she can be used in high pressure or kill lanes. Oh, and she can splitpush, I guess. So can Janna, if you slap some cost-efficient AP items, like the Morellonomicon, on her.
    Rarely see Lulu, but Yeah Janna I see reset teamfights if she lives long enough to position herself. Visionwar is standard support stuff, not specific to blitz or other supports and an integral part of supporting.
    Quote Originally Posted by abadguy View Post
    What are the 'usual' bans you see?

    All this Thresh talk gets to me because I see Thresh being a regular ban even when i spectate Gold+ games
    Me? Zac, Zed, Kass, Malphite (for some reason), Tresh and some other champ.


    wow, that was a lot.

    So, Just won a game with Leona, dieing less, the enemy janna, killing less, assisting less, but having a solid 3k on her Also being support with Zeke's and vanguard rocks. Solid
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    Default Re: League of Legends LII: Sin of the Blind Monk

    Quote Originally Posted by Socratov View Post
    hooks are meant to be dodged, else your carry is likely an idiot or you are not warding the way you should. Seriously, no support has an answer for a hook. That's not just Soraka, that is any support, becuase the solution is something else then the support actually does.
    Every time Blitz or Thresh comes up, you just go "dodge the hooks" and move on. Hooks WILL land at times.

    And other supports are actually better able to deal with hooks.

    Leona: instant all-in on the enemy ADC
    Thresh: Lantern out or go in on enemy ADC and try to lock them down with hook and Flays
    Alistar: Flies into enemies and knocks them up and/or back
    Sona: Actually really weak to hook lanes, but should be trying to utilize her extreme poke to keep the enemy too low to hook

    Quote Originally Posted by Socratov View Post
    Except that Sona's heal is only useful out of combat. In combat it's like goggles: Zhey do Nasing! Soraka's heal allows a carry to carefully venture out there again to start farming agian without fear of being oneshot. Sona's heal needs to be used at least 3 times to warrant that kind of safety (not much, but some)
    Sona's heal is useful in combat, too, though not as bursty. And the more sustained nature of it isn't always harmful; in dealing with poke in lane, it's just as good if not better because you just cast it every time a trade happens without worrying about overheal or it being on CD and leaving you vulnerable for a whopping 20 seconds. And throughout laning phase, the overall amount healed is pretty much exactly the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by Socratov View Post
    Except that I have actually little to no professional play seen of her. So In order to judge her effectiveness I can only follow my own experience. One thing though: Soraka is the cheapest support out there but neglected becuase other supports at least look cooler and have fancy CC And because the pros play other champs and they think they can do as well on them like the dutiful sheep they are
    Pro players don't pick their champions because they're sheep. Professional players in fact tend to be the shephards. If they're not bringing out Soraka, that's because they've decided that doing so hurts their chances of winning because other support picks are going to be better.

    Quote Originally Posted by Socratov View Post
    like above, with 1 questioin: what are you doing in mid anyway? Her E is free to cast btw (in mid lvl this one first), and her heal you actually want to spend mana on (level this one second). So... I think something, somewhere went terribly wrong...
    Because he wants to play Midraka, which is a thing, though it pretty much disappeared after some nerfs (I forget what; I know the jungle changes hurt it because one of its strengths was taking all the lane farm AND both wraith camps). It levels Q first, not E

    Quote Originally Posted by Socratov View Post
    not much, but the enemy has other problems like my mid and adc laying waste to everything/ Plus the range is quite something
    (Talking about Starcrall and using it) Starcall's range isn't that great and she's so squishy that if you're getting in range to apply it to anyone but the enemy tank/bruiser line, you run a pretty high risk of blowing up incidentally

    Quote Originally Posted by Socratov View Post
    they should, but I generally buy more pinks then the other support (only once was I outpinked), often playing agianst twitch or eve does that to you.
    Buying a pink ward and using it to eliminate the enemy's pink in the side brush are two different things. They should generally deploy it in the back end of the bush so you have to go to at least the halfway point of the bush to take it out. Given that Soraka is a very weak all-in support, that's huge.

    Quote Originally Posted by Socratov View Post
    I always expect Leona to (after some harrassment) dive the turret. Sadly most carries don't follow up ending up oin a dead leona. Bu tI have seen it done lots. especially at lvl 6-7
    So basically you feel confident relying on your opponents to MASSIVELY misplay and just completely give your carry kills? Because that's not something you can just rely on.

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    What sort of idiot Leona player would even do that? I can see diving in on the tower for only three reasons. 1) the Jungler and/or Mid are coming in from behind and you need to initiate the fight. 2) Your Carry is about to launch the ability needed to get a couple kills and you need to keep them in position for a second. 3) The enemy carry/support are so low on HP and Mana that you can easily nab a kill and walk off.

    Quote Originally Posted by Silverraptor View Post
    Haha, that was an interesting video to watch.
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    Spoiler for Soraka discussion since in the game of autism only some people have fun

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    Quote Originally Posted by Socratov View Post
    IIRC your range on E is bigger then her range on E, thus vision solves everything. Tada, Q and W are wasted since leona can't connect in time.
    You always seem to assume you're going to have vision over Leona. Why? Leona can kill a ward as it's popped into the brush and if she wants to catch and kill you she should invest extra into vision denial.

    Quote Originally Posted by Socratov View Post
    Soraka is the cheapest support out there but neglected becuase other supports at least look cooler and have fancy CC And because the pros play other champs and they think they can do as well on them like the dutiful sheep they are It doesn't explain the effect when I played with a friend ranked against gold level opponents who should know (for reference, [epeen]played 3, all soraka, all win [/epeen])
    Pulling the "sheeple don't play Soraka because no pro plays her, not because she's boring and one-dimensional" and "I can beat goldies, it was all my Soraka" card in one sentence.

    Man, I have won lanes against Platinum and Diamond players before as a support, and I'm, at this moment, a Silver player in solo queue. What does that make me? Silver.

    Quote Originally Posted by Socratov View Post
    like above, with 1 questioin: what are you doing in mid anyway? Her E is free to cast btw (in mid lvl this one first), and her heal you actually want to spend mana on (level this one second). So... I think something, somewhere went terribly wrong...
    AP Soraka is a thing because it's hard to force her out, she has excellent level 1 damage, she pushes like crazy and can shut down mages with her silence. But no pro plays her because they prefer fancy cc and actual roaming ability and sheeple will follow kek
    Quote Originally Posted by Socratov View Post
    In SoloQ you want it desperately becuase it gives a "NO!" button on enemy carries mitigating a lot of damage versus your team (and giving time to burst carreis down until sustain kicks back in)
    Sure Exhaust is a great counter to autoattack heavy carries (Vayne comes to mind) and a few other champions. It's a great spell. Ignite however enables way more kill potential. You can get kills with Ignite that you wouldn't with Exhaust. If an Ezreal gets taken low and Ignited, he dashes away and dies in a fire. If an Ezreal gets taken low and Exhausted, he dashes away with a limp, but still alive. Also, solo queue typically doesn't reach late game, and on some supports and teamcomps, you don't need Exhaust's bonus CC. Plus a fed support can get earlier items and dominate the lane even harder. Plus if the Ignite nags somebody the AD carry still gets an assist, which is a win for him too. Plus Ignite shuts down healing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Socratov View Post
    while funny, it's not something you do as a support since you want your carry to grow fat like gragas. Though it could be fun to try it once in an insanely agressive comp like graves or something...
    It's a cheese specifically designed to win a level 1 fight and walk away from it with a double kill. So yes, it helps your support grow fat at least by applying pressure.
    Quote Originally Posted by Socratov View Post
    hooks are meant to be dodged, else your carry is likely an idiot or you are not warding the way you should. Seriously, no support has an answer for a hook.
    Alistar, Leona, Taric - they are too tanky to be killed in a 2v2. Blitzcrank hooking either one of those is a free initiate for the enemy. Thresh hooking either one of those probably can't follow up with a hook and flay. Blitzcrank has to wait for ganks.
    Sona - a very squishy support that dies to burst. However if Blitzcrank or Thresh has hook on cooldown he can get poked by Sona in return. Overall Sona only wins in prolonged fights that have sustain involved. I run Health quints on Sona especially against aggressive lanes because Blitzcranks try to level 2 hook me in lane and I tend to accept because I win those engages (Sona has mucho damage) and then sustain back.
    Lulu - whoever gets hooked gets a Lulu ult for a quick and easy disengage. A Whimsy can be used offensively. Glitterlance can help kite. And again, Lulu outpokes both Thresh and Blitzcrank.
    Janna - Howling Gale stops Thresh's hook following mechanic, Monsoon does work against hard initiates, Eye of the Storm helps not die.
    Fiddle - don't hook him while he is ulted please. If he gets grabbed in a 2v2 he can initiate with fear and disengage or begin a new engagement altogether.

    About the only people I'd say having little to no counters to hooks would be Zyra (she can ult, but it's delayed, though a good disengage nonetheless; her root doesn't do much when she's in melee range) and Soraka (you can heal up for the burst, but you're squishy and have nothing in your kit to make you more mobile, make you able to out-trade in this situation, and you can't stop autoattacks with silence).

    Also, Ezreal can easily dash away from Blitz hooks mid-transit, though he's not a support. Still a typical bot laner.

    In teamfight situations when 5 people can dogpile on hooks it's different, but still, Blitzcrank absolutely abhors situations where the enemy team looks like Amumu/Ezreal/Alistar/Aatrox/Karthus where his Rocket Grab is hard to help his team with because whoever he grabs can potentially spell doom to his teammates. Hooks are a real threat as teamfight initiations and ganks; in a 2v2, they come sporadically since people know how to deal with them, and at least Blitz has nothing in his kit other than his hook and abilities that support that hook.

    Quote Originally Posted by Socratov View Post
    yes if you generalise that much back that's how any lane wins.
    So basically when you play Soraka you have a maphack between bot lane and mid lane and all jungle entrances and the enemies are just too stupid to try denying it. I got it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Socratov View Post
    But Soraka has the ability to completely reverse the hunter/hunted role in a gank or teamfight.
    So can Blitz, Thresh, Zyra and Lulu, to name a few, with their disengages, surprise engages (Flash hook under turret against chasers can score cheese kills) and innate damage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Socratov View Post
    Not many champs that can do thatwith permanent results (I.E. hp and removing casting initiative)
    Why do permanent results matter? How "permanent" is removing caster initiative? If you use your skills to turn the tides of a gank and get a kill and you are low, then you either lifesteal/pot up/regen back while outpushing the lane (since the people who tried diving you are dead) or recall back (if you're too low for comfort, and need to spend the gold anyway).

    Quote Originally Posted by Socratov View Post
    And If you have nevcer seen it on your side I weep for you for haveing seen no decent Soraka
    I have played every support this game has to offer and even though I lack mechanical skill I tend to know their limits and capabilities. I'm trying to evaluate her strengths and weaknesses, you work off anecdotal evidence and fail to address certain matters (such as the fact that silence doesn't stop autoattacks). Sure I have seen decent Sorakas. They just don't play Soraka anymore, mostly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Socratov View Post
    Sona's sustain looks good, but lacks IMO like presented above. Nami I haven't played a lot, but assuming your enemies are no idiots, the sustain is lacking for it's cooldown and manacost.
    Nami's heal has a drawback where it is rather inefficient outside of battle situations, yes. However, what's the problem with Sona's heal again? It doesn't have a superhefty cooldown unlike Soraka, comes with a very useful Power Chord effect that can make or break teamfights (-20% damage on a burst assassin or fed AD carry for 3 seconds? I'm sold!), and heals both you and your teammate. Spamming it when you're the only one hurt is usually bad and you have many ways to heal up a bit in the early game (get a Doran's Shield, start with health pots, get a Philosopher Stone), spamming it when the AD carry is hurt but he can safely lifesteal is usually bad, but it works on two people (cool for, you know, 2v2 situations in bot lane), gives an aura, stacks up Power Chord, and contributes to her being a lane dominating machine who not only heals up, but can also efficiently deal damage and initiate fights, something that wins games more than a passive, reactory heal or silence.

    Quote Originally Posted by Socratov View Post
    but I generally buy more pinks then the other support (only once was I outpinked)
    play more games
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silverraptor View Post
    As a person that deals with stats all the time I hate their quotes about sportsmanship

    Sportsman players win 1.7 million more games then average players
    context? If there are 5 million sportsman players and 1 million 'average' players, then i dont want to be a sportsman. Not to mention no attempt at causation as opposed to correlation.

    54% win rate with no ragers vs 46% witt 3 ragers
    causation or correlation? Do people rage because the lose alot (ie bad players)? If so then the statement could be "54% win rate with no bad players vs 46% with 3 bad players". Do ragers typically end up being people that dont focus on winning the game anyways, and focus on other parts of the game?

    correlation between behavior and gold
    there is also a direct correlation when you consider that every person that has every killed anyone also drank milk.

    Just Raging here :) I teach stats, and stuff in this video is stuff I tell my students to look out for, and to never do in a job. Useless or misleading statistics are useless or misleading 100% of the time.
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    Welp I got my qualifier for gold AGAIN. Played a few diana games, love that hero. Played a few annie games, but I'm frustrated by how binary she can be.

    I also find it funny that I'm seeing a LOT more 4 threat teams these days. I'm not sure how I feel about it. In general games towards the end of the season always seem more snowbally. I think its because you start mixing players like me, who have played something like 700 ranked games this season with players like Zach, who haven't played alot of games, so his rating doesn't necessarily describe his skill. you also get a LOT of Plat/Gold duos and Gold/Silver duos as people try to help their friends get gold.

    Question: If I duo queue with a bronze 5 player during my Series, and win my series, will I still get gold?

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    Quote Originally Posted by toasty View Post
    Question: If I duo queue with a bronze 5 player during my Series, and win my series, will I still get gold?
    Yes, though you'll play with tarded team vs. slightly less tarded team. Athene-trick is to use a high ranked player on a Bronze smurf.
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    Think it's possible to get to gold if I can only play on weekends from Bronze III?

    Also note to self, grab Trynd to make it easier.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nadevoc View Post
    Every time Blitz or Thresh comes up, you just go "dodge the hooks" and move on. Hooks WILL land at times.

    And other supports are actually better able to deal with hooks.

    Leona: instant all-in on the enemy ADC
    Thresh: Lantern out or go in on enemy ADC and try to lock them down with hook and Flays
    Alistar: Flies into enemies and knocks them up and/or back
    Sona: Actually really weak to hook lanes, but should be trying to utilize her extreme poke to keep the enemy too low to hook
    what about staying behind creeps? as long as you stay behind creeps you can't be hooked. Leona's root works, though she will have to tank not you and your carry, but your minions as well. If your minions get pushed, move back in anticipation. Elemantal positioning.

    Sona's heal is useful in combat, too, though not as bursty. And the more sustained nature of it isn't always harmful; in dealing with poke in lane, it's just as good if not better because you just cast it every time a trade happens without worrying about overheal or it being on CD and leaving you vulnerable for a whopping 20 seconds. And throughout laning phase, the overall amount healed is pretty much exactly the same.
    unless you start pushing lots of AP, the heal amount is 40/60/80/100/120 (+0.25AP). at levels (taken asap, ult at 6) 1,3,5,7,9. this is 1 autohit from a carry at the start to a decent poke later (never mind the autohit). Besides, at the time you leave lane a bit (lvl 7-8) you start temafighting, no wyour ap/ad dmg boost and ult are much more important as are your speedboost. The build I see most of times is q-w-q-w-e-r-q-w(?) which means you can't keep up on it.

    Pro players don't pick their champions because they're sheep. Professional players in fact tend to be the shephards. If they're not bringing out Soraka, that's because they've decided that doing so hurts their chances of winning because other support picks are going to be better.
    I never said proplayers are sheep, non-pro palyers are sheep (especially bronze, silver and low gold). They worry much more about which champion counter which (despite that being bollocks at that level of play) and what champion is played by which pro and who is a fanboy of whom. This sounds condescending, but real all the same (along with everyone yelling "pickorder is sacred! We shoudl worship it as our god!")

    Because he wants to play Midraka, which is a thing, though it pretty much disappeared after some nerfs (I forget what; I know the jungle changes hurt it because one of its strengths was taking all the lane farm AND both wraith camps). It levels Q first, not E
    must have been a thing during my year+ sabattical from LoL... CAn't really comment on this then...

    (Talking about Starcrall and using it) Starcall's range isn't that great and she's so squishy that if you're getting in range to apply it to anyone but the enemy tank/bruiser line, you run a pretty high risk of blowing up incidentally
    True, it is a risk, but only endgame when you have stocked up on (I hope) ruby sightstone and Locket improving your tankiness. It's usually when focus is on carries and bruiser. then you be sneaky.

    Buying a pink ward and using it to eliminate the enemy's pink in the side brush are two different things. They should generally deploy it in the back end of the bush so you have to go to at least the halfway point of the bush to take it out. Given that Soraka is a very weak all-in support, that's huge.
    I find it insulting that you think I'd just by a pink and not know how to use it to eliminate other wards or at least place it comeptently. If a person can't do this as a support (or ping their carries that they should reposition becuase of blitz in brush) something is done wrong.

    So basically you feel confident relying on your opponents to MASSIVELY misplay and just completely give your carry kills? Because that's not something you can just rely on.
    hyperbole much? Leona is one of the few champs that can competently towerdive and gtfo again. It's not done constantly, but I see it done once/twice every game with decent results. Ofcourse she won't dive solo or without carry/jungle support that stands to common sense.


    @winthur: thank you for your opening statement, I'll try and see if I can match it with a diagnose by a doctor (if this is not what you meant please say so, this is how it comes across to me)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Winthur
    You always seem to assume you're going to have vision over Leona. Why? Leona can kill a ward as it's popped into the brush and if she wants to catch and kill you she should invest extra into vision denial.
    Soraka is ranged and despite her low base ad she can annoy forcing leona to either go all-in oir leave the ward be. This is getting very game specific though depending on botlane comp and buys at the start of the game
    Pulling the "sheeple don't play Soraka because no pro plays her, not because she's boring and one-dimensional" and "I can beat goldies, it was all my Soraka" card in one sentence.
    I may have been a bit crass there, however my poit to illustrate is that one does see a sheeple tendency in bronze silver (or at least I see it): these days it's tresh/zyra, before it was something else, before that (season 2) it was sona/janna, and when shushei was somebody it was alistar and taric. My point still stands, especially considering that tournament and regional patches may differ from time to time. The second is where I did make the difference feeding my carry ez like the french feed their geese, resulting in a great difference between carreis getting the game. This was versus Sona, Tresh, Leona IIRC, each of which are said to completely screw over Soraka in lane (or that seems to be the common sentiment here)
    Man, I have won lanes against Platinum and Diamond players before as a support, and I'm, at this moment, a Silver player in solo queue. What does that make me? Silver.
    And I'm still in Placement. It served as an example of showing that apparently not only bronze and low silver players can't seem to systematically beat her (like in my normals), but high silver and gold as well, countering hte argument that low elo players just don't know how to counter soraka

    AP Soraka is a thing because it's hard to force her out, she has excellent level 1 damage, she pushes like crazy and can shut down mages with her silence. But no pro plays her because they prefer fancy cc and actual roaming ability and sheeple will follow kek
    I comepletely conceed this point (never even contested it) in the fact that there are way better midlaners then soraka on account of wanting a midlaner to carry on the AP nside of things. Which Soraka (with the burst ability of a squirrel) will never do. She does have great counterburst though...

    Sure Exhaust is a great counter to autoattack heavy carries (Vayne comes to mind) and a few other champions. It's a great spell. Ignite however enables way more kill potential. You can get kills with Ignite that you wouldn't with Exhaust. If an Ezreal gets taken low and Ignited, he dashes away and dies in a fire. If an Ezreal gets taken low and Exhausted, he dashes away with a limp, but still alive. Also, solo queue typically doesn't reach late game, and on some supports and teamcomps, you don't need Exhaust's bonus CC. Plus a fed support can get earlier items and dominate the lane even harder. Plus if the Ignite nags somebody the AD carry still gets an assist, which is a win for him too. Plus Ignite shuts down healing.
    That is one way to use exhaust, I just use it for damage mitigation. though this is a preference matter

    It's a cheese specifically designed to win a level 1 fight and walk away from it with a double kill. So yes, it helps your support grow fat at least by applying pressure.
    I think we have different definitions of cheese... and if not that, different appetites. I like a good gorgonzola or gruyere every now and then
    Sona - a very squishy support that dies to burst. However if Blitzcrank or Thresh has hook on cooldown he can get poked by Sona in return. Overall Sona only wins in prolonged fights that have sustain involved. I run Health quints on Sona especially against aggressive lanes because Blitzcranks try to level 2 hook me in lane and I tend to accept because I win those engages (Sona has mucho damage) and then sustain back.
    Lulu - whoever gets hooked gets a Lulu ult for a quick and easy disengage. A Whimsy can be used offensively. Glitterlance can help kite. And again, Lulu outpokes both Thresh and Blitzcrank.
    Janna - Howling Gale stops Thresh's hook following mechanic, Monsoon does work against hard initiates, Eye of the Storm helps not die.
    does it now? that is some new information for me. good to know
    Fiddle - don't hook him while he is ulted please. If he gets grabbed in a 2v2 he can initiate with fear and disengage or begin a new engagement altogether.

    About the only people I'd say having little to no counters to hooks would be Zyra (she can ult, but it's delayed, though a good disengage nonetheless; her root doesn't do much when she's in melee range) and Soraka (you can heal up for the burst, but you're squishy and have nothing in your kit to make you more mobile, make you able to out-trade in this situation, and you can't stop autoattacks with silence).
    which is why stay-behind-the-minions-while-blitz-has-hook is a viable tactic
    Also, Ezreal can easily dash away from Blitz hooks mid-transit, though he's not a support. Still a typical bot laner.
    yeah, he's special that way
    In teamfight situations when 5 people can dogpile on hooks it's different, but still, Blitzcrank absolutely abhors situations where the enemy team looks like Amumu/Ezreal/Alistar/Aatrox/Karthus where his Rocket Grab is hard to help his team with because whoever he grabs can potentially spell doom to his teammates. Hooks are a real threat as teamfight initiations and ganks; in a 2v2, they come sporadically since people know how to deal with them, and at least Blitz has nothing in his kit other than his hook and abilities that support that hook.


    So basically when you play Soraka you have a maphack between bot lane and mid lane and all jungle entrances and the enemies are just too stupid to try denying it. I got it.
    Well, if wards and excessive counterwarding is maphack, then yes. Also, the utility ward can be great to initiate a wardwar leaving you with vision as you use your pinks to destroy his pinks

    So can Blitz, Thresh, Zyra and Lulu, to name a few, with their disengages, surprise engages (Flash hook under turret against chasers can score cheese kills) and innate damage.


    Why do permanent results matter? How "permanent" is removing caster initiative? If you use your skills to turn the tides of a gank and get a kill and you are low, then you either lifesteal/pot up/regen back while outpushing the lane (since the people who tried diving you are dead) or recall back (if you're too low for comfort, and need to spend the gold anyway).
    well in a game of cat and mouse it's the person with initiative who has the upper hand in doing or controlling the situation. deny them the initiative and making it your own turns tables so to speak.
    I have played every support this game has to offer and even though I lack mechanical skill I tend to know their limits and capabilities. I'm trying to evaluate her strengths and weaknesses, you work off anecdotal evidence and fail to address certain matters (such as the fact that silence doesn't stop autoattacks). Sure I have seen decent Sorakas. They just don't play Soraka anymore, mostly.
    to be honest a lot of counterpoints people have brought up are adresssed by wards, positioning and experience, not specifically soraka's kit
    Nami's heal has a drawback where it is rather inefficient outside of battle situations, yes. However, what's the problem with Sona's heal again? It doesn't have a superhefty cooldown unlike Soraka, comes with a very useful Power Chord effect that can make or break teamfights (-20% damage on a burst assassin or fed AD carry for 3 seconds? I'm sold!), and heals both you and your teammate. Spamming it when you're the only one hurt is usually bad and you have many ways to heal up a bit in the early game (get a Doran's Shield, start with health pots, get a Philosopher Stone), spamming it when the AD carry is hurt but he can safely lifesteal is usually bad, but it works on two people (cool for, you know, 2v2 situations in bot lane), gives an aura, stacks up Power Chord, and contributes to her being a lane dominating machine who not only heals up, but can also efficiently deal damage and initiate fights, something that wins games more than a passive, reactory heal or silence.
    has less cooldown, is untargettable, and heals about as much as an autohit? Sorry not a holy grail for me. the powerchord effect is great though... I agree with that. Rather have Nami's for the sake of being double edged and thus offering more utility

    play more games
    *slow clap* wow really great comment. It's not like I have played close to 500 games with supports or anything *whistles*
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    Default Re: League of Legends LII: Sin of the Blind Monk

    The teamwork op video bothered me a lot too. There was just a pretty blatant disregard for even the most obvious source of bias (the team that is losing rages not because ragers don't win but because ragers only rage when they're losing, and people who win a lot therefore rage less). It's striking because there actually is probably a significant effect that leads people who never rage even when losing to win more - I've noticed in solo queue that most people who clearly rage constantly are better than everyone else in their skill bracket, though like most other solo queue effects it disappears once you reach high diamond.

    If you're in bronze, you've never played with a decent anything including Soraka. I've beaten professional players in bot lane many times both with Soraka involved and without, and sometimes playing her. She's terrible right now. She has a small disadvantage in lane, and if she can hold on through laning phase she faces a large disadvantage late game. It's just not a good scene.

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  27. - Top - End - #117
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    Default Re: League of Legends LII: Sin of the Blind Monk

    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf_Haley View Post
    Think it's possible to get to gold if I can only play on weekends from Bronze III?

    Also note to self, grab Trynd to make it easier.
    Honestly? Yeah. It's possible. You just need to:
    1) Play a lot.
    2) Play good.

    I don't know your actual skill level but if you are in the Gold brackets, it's possible. If worst comes to worst & season is about to end with you near gold, I'm sure you'll find a duo partner to help you out.
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  28. - Top - End - #118
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    Default Re: League of Legends LII: Sin of the Blind Monk

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    Quote Originally Posted by Socratov
    (or that seems to be the common sentiment here) And I'm still in Placement. It served as an example of showing that apparently not only bronze and low silver players can't seem to systematically beat her (like in my normals), but high silver and gold as well, countering hte argument that low elo players just don't know how to counter soraka
    Bronze, Silver and Gold are all low elos. Also, you are unranked, hence you play mostly normals. If you are matched against Goldies at most in bot lane, then, well... it's low.
    Quote Originally Posted by Socratov
    I think we have different definitions of cheese... and if not that, different appetites. I like a good gorgonzola or gruyere every now and then :smallamused
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    Quote Originally Posted by Socratov
    which is why stay-behind-the-minions-while-blitz-has-hook is a viable tactic
    Sure, but it still makes sure that you have to be on your toes and be careful of overextending and be wary of losing a pink ward fight because then he has many ways to initiate on you without you even knowing. He can even walk up to you with W and E and hit you and then while you're in air, walk away and hook.

    Quote Originally Posted by Socratov
    deny them the initiative and making it your own turns tables so to speak.
    Soraka just has less tools to do that. She has a ranged autoattack it's all. While removing a ward she can be focused down. You aren't going to walk up to a ward in a brush with a Leona or Thresh inside it, are you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Socratov
    to be honest a lot of counterpoints people have brought up are adresssed by wards, positioning and experience, not specifically soraka's kit
    Well you yourself started with the whole "Blitz and Thresh are easy to deal with, just dodge hooks, and Leonas always tower dive at level 6 for no reason" and implied that enemy supports don't ward.

    Quote Originally Posted by Socratov
    has less cooldown, is untargettable, and heals about as much as an autohit? Sorry not a holy grail for me.
    Heals more often and helps in trades. Sona may not even be great against Soraka (magic resist buff and silence against Q helps Soraka's case), but she brings damage, utility (the slow and the MS buff plus the damage debuff) and a freaking powerful initiation tool to the team which is just more universal and more across-the-board valuable than heals and silence.

    Quote Originally Posted by Socratov
    *slow clap* wow really great comment. It's not like I have played close to 500 games with supports or anything *whistles*
    Well, you're the one who pitied me that in my own thousand or so support games I haven't seen a good Soraka. Sorry that it's just so hard not to condescend when someone has very little to say beyond anecdotes from the depths of Bronze and is being hypocritical to boot. It makes me want to play my favourite game, Legacy of Khaine: Scepter Alistar.
    Last edited by Winthur; 2013-09-11 at 02:34 PM.
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  29. - Top - End - #119
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    Default Re: League of Legends LII: Sin of the Blind Monk

    Okay, last post on the Soraka thing. I'll start by saying this: I'm not claiming Soraka has no use. I'm mostly just really tired of you popping in any time any support is mentioned and going, "BUT SORAKA IS 3000% BETTERRRRRR!"

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    "Just stay behind minions" is NOT a foolproof plan to not being hooked. A good Blitz will be constantly positioning himself such that he can hook through openings or his ADC will CREATE openings. The only way to always remain safely behind your minions is by zoning yourself, in which case Blitz has already won.

    Sona's heal IS targettable (it targets itself, but using extremely predictable algorithms). Yes, it's a lot less than Soraka's but it's on ONE THIRD the cooldown. You're really, REALLY underestimating what that means in terms of lane sustain.

    I never said proplayers are sheep, non-pro palyers are sheep (especially bronze, silver and low gold). They worry much more about which champion counter which (despite that being bollocks at that level of play) and what champion is played by which pro and who is a fanboy of whom. This sounds condescending, but real all the same (along with everyone yelling "pickorder is sacred! We shoudl worship it as our god!")
    Most folks I've run into bronze through gold actually care very little about counterpicks. They just say "It's okay, <champ> OP" or "It's okay, I'm OP on <champ>". I also run into mostly folks who discuss a bit and then revert to pick order in cases where multiple people want the same role, not simply going "PICK ORDER PICK ORDER PICK ORDER". So... I'm really not sure where you're coming from. Your anecdotal evidence is entirely opposed by mine.

    True, it is a risk, but only endgame when you have stocked up on (I hope) ruby sightstone and Locket improving your tankiness. It's usually when focus is on carries and bruiser. then you be sneaky.
    I can't remember the last support game I've finished with a Locket, even when my team was extremely far ahead and I had tons of objective and assist gold. I find it confusing you feel it's safe to assume you'll end up with one, ESPECIALLY while also claiming to completely outpink your opponent.

    Most supports end game with boots, ruby sightstone, philo (or not; it seems to be preference now), and wards. That's it.

    I find it insulting that you think I'd just by a pink and not know how to use it to eliminate other wards or at least place it comeptently. If a person can't do this as a support (or ping their carries that they should reposition becuase of blitz in brush) something is done wrong.
    I find it insulting you think you can dismiss my points by saying "But I can just pink the bushes and it's fine" when one of Soraka's huge issues is that she's TERRIBLE at all-ins so any decent opposing support can simply prevent you from doing so because you have to walk relatively close to the ward to clear it and then the other team just jumps your face.

    Soraka is ranged and despite her low base ad she can annoy forcing leona to either go all-in oir leave the ward be. This is getting very game specific though depending on botlane comp and buys at the start of the game
    Actually, for the first ward she can't. Leona insta-kills the first ward put in her bush.

    And after that? "Forcing Leona" to all-in? I think you mean LETTING Leona all-in.

    to be honest a lot of counterpoints people have brought up are adresssed by wards, positioning and experience, not specifically soraka's kit
    And a ton of your points are "I don't care that the other support's kit is way better in this situation, just completely outplay them".

    hyperbole much? Leona is one of the few champs that can competently towerdive and gtfo again. It's not done constantly, but I see it done once/twice every game with decent results. Ofcourse she won't dive solo or without carry/jungle support that stands to common sense.
    You literally said you ALWAYS expect the Leona to dive at 6-7 when Leona generally SHOULDN'T dive at 6-7, only in specific circumstances. Then you claimed that in the majority of times (which translates to over half the time) the carry won't follow. That means you're expecting the enemy to HUGELY MISPLAY OVER HALF THE TIME and just GIVE YOU KILLS. I'm not employing hyperbole here (though I often do). In this case, I'm straight up responding to what you said.

  30. - Top - End - #120
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    Default Re: League of Legends LII: Sin of the Blind Monk

    Quote Originally Posted by Winthur View Post
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    Bronze, Silver and Gold are all low elos. Also, you are unranked, hence you play mostly normals. If you are matched against Goldies at most in bot lane, then, well... it's low.


    I like foreskin cheese


    Sure, but it still makes sure that you have to be on your toes and be careful of overextending and be wary of losing a pink ward fight because then he has many ways to initiate on you without you even knowing. He can even walk up to you with W and E and hit you and then while you're in air, walk away and hook.



    Soraka just has less tools to do that. She has a ranged autoattack it's all. While removing a ward she can be focused down. You aren't going to walk up to a ward in a brush with a Leona or Thresh inside it, are you?



    Well you yourself started with the whole "Blitz and Thresh are easy to deal with, just dodge hooks, and Leonas always tower dive at level 6 for no reason" and implied that enemy supports don't ward.



    Heals more often and helps in trades. Sona may not even be great against Soraka (magic resist buff and silence against Q helps Soraka's case), but she brings damage, utility (the slow and the MS buff plus the damage debuff) and a freaking powerful initiation tool to the team which is just more universal and more across-the-board valuable than heals and silence.


    Well, you're the one who pitied me that in my own thousand or so support games I haven't seen a good Soraka. Sorry that it's just so hard not to condescend when someone has very little to say beyond anecdotes from the depths of Bronze and is being hypocritical to boot. It makes me want to play my favourite game, Legacy of Khaine: Scepter Alistar.
    You know what, you win. Congratulations. I'm gonna concede it all before either or the both of us type things we don't mean to eachother resulting into a nasty situation ruining everyone's fun. I'll retreat to my deep end of the bronzepool where I'm obviously going to be placed and enjoy my maphack software dreaming dreams of grandeur. Chapeau et adieu.
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