Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Medium-Sized creature

[The Great Skenardo]

In a recent campaign which was little on the unconventional side, I had a player who played a half-ogre barbarian (homebrew half-ogre) who was actually a lot like Thog in many respects. However, once he hit a certain HD, he actually gained large size category. Once this happened, the player decided to give up conventional weapons in favor of the exotic (think drunken master) and eventually wanted to start hitting people. With other people. So, he asked if he could create a special feat that would increase his ability to fight people with people, as it were.

So here's the project:
New Feat: Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Medium-Sized Creature
Pre-reqs: Str 18, Size Large, Huge or Garangutan, Base attack bonus +5

Description: This feat allows you to pick up foes (or allies) of medium size without any of the following subtypes: Incorporeal, Ooze, or any other creature that causes damage by touch, and use them as deadly weapons in combat. The weight of the target to be picked up ('Weapon') may not exceed your light load capacity. In order to use someone as a weapon, you must first initiate a grapple with that character (which normally provokes an attack of opportunity). If you succeed, then you may use the 'Weapon' as a two-handed melee weapon for each round in which you maintain a grapple, albeit at a -4 penalty. Using an unconscious, immoble or otherwise helpless Weapon reduces this penalty to -2. whenever a Weapon is used to score a successful melee hit, it takes half damage from the strike (although see below)

Weapon statistics: bludgeoning (although see below) 1d10+ 3/2 STR modifier (as normal for a two-handed weapon). You cannot score a critical hit using this weapon.
Creatures of the Earth subtype, as well as constructs, do double damage when used as Weapons due to their increased hardness and mass, however they take no damage from being used as a Weapon unless used against an enemy of comparable hardness. Creatures of flesh and bone (or similar) that are used as Weapons against such creatures take full damage, but the target takes only half.

Normal: You normally cannot use other creatures as weapons in combat

Errata: A Huge creature may treat the Weapon as either a two-handed or a light weapon. A Garangutan creature uses a Weapon as a one-handed weapon. A Colossal creature may not use medium-sized creatures as weapons (but see Exotic weapon profiency: Large creature)
In addition, any creature used as a Weapon against a creature with an ability that does damage by promixity (i.e. Heat(Ex) or Cold Aura(Ex)) takes damage as if striking the creature with an unarmed strike.

Now that that's out, Are there any comments or tweaks? Weaknesses I might have missed?

[Diggorian]

Beautiful idea. Doesnt seem very advantageous though for a feat.

I'd work it so the grabber must succeed at a grapple check and instead of doing damage or pinning they can wield the grabbed 'weapon'. This way the grabber has to make a check every attack, a better balancer than the -4 I think (cause proficiency shouldnt have penalties IMHO). No check needed if the 'weapon' is helpless or unable to make grapple checks.

If you really want a penalty, I'd use the 'weapon's' Dodge bonuses (Dex mod, dodge feat).

The grabbed is considered two handed for Large grabbers, one handed for Huges, and light for Gargantuans and bigger. They deal bludegeoning damage equal to half the grabbers unarmed or natural attacks with the holding limb. The grabbed takes the other half of the damage they deal.

[jlousivy]

i'd have the 'weapon' take equal damage, and i'd have the weapon's damage be dependant on the size, ie: tiny 1d4, small 1d6, medium 1d8, large 1d10
and that you cannot use any creature larger than your size(since you cant use a weapon that's bigger)
reasoning: there is absolutely no reason you can swing a half-orc but not a gnome

[Triaxx]

If two categories larger is required for one handed weilding, then my elven sorceror could leap into battle, dual wielding rabbits? Cool. I like this feat.

I could apply it to a few large monsters and have it become a challenge for larger battles. Perhaps creatures of three or more sizes larger can apply their strength bonus to the damage? So the Gargantuan monster grabs up a medium character, and swings him one handed dealing 1d8+strength modifier.

[The Great Skenardo]

Perhaps creatures of three or more sizes larger can apply their strength bonus to the damage? So the Gargantuan monster grabs up a medium character, and swings him one handed dealing 1d8+strength modifier.

Perhaps the feat could be clarified for the different size categories. Strength would still be added to damage but obviously a colossal creature could not use a medium-sized creature as a two-handed weapon. As it stands right now, I'm trying to restrict this feat to the use of medium-sized creatures.

Errata: A Huge creature may treat the Weapon as either a two-handed or a light weapon. A Garangutan creature uses a Weapon as a one-handed weapon. A Colossal creature may not use medium-sized creatures as weapons

[Triaxx]

Fantastic. Now if I'm DM'ing and I send the PC's into battle they'll have to worry about being swung like a giant club.

[The Great Skenardo]

I've added a bit of extra rulage for using fleshy Weapons against creatures of stone or magma or similar.

[Diggorian]

Why does the weapon take full damage but the struck target take only half?

I considered weapon's dealing damage based off their HD, so a Barbarian did more damage than say a rogue. But it seemed kinda silly.

[The Great Skenardo]

Diggoran: Note that this only happens when a creature of flesh and bone is used as a Weapon against a creature of rock or similar. Otherwise, it's half damage to the Weapon, full damage to the target.

[Diggorian]

OK, I can see that. What made you decide on the 1d8 damage?

Further, are you concerned about the feat mechanics becoming too complicated? I understand the desire to realistically model the action but could some more abstract be employed to simplify the actual gameplay in using it?

[The Great Skenardo]

In most applications, the feat should be pretty simple:
Initiate Grapple, Maintain grapple, attack roll (-4), damage to opponent (1d8+3/2 Str), Damage to Weapon (half that).
The rest of it may really be termed special cases, which I think most DM's would make similar calls on in gameplay. (i.e. using an elf to try and hit a Warforged vs. Warforged Weapon against an elf)

The 1d8 damage is arbitrary. 1d6 seemed like too little, and 1d10 seemed like too much.

I also think the -4 penalty is reasonable, given the nature of any creature that might take this feat (i.e. Giants or monstrous races with ridiculous strength modifiers to whom a -4 is not that much, relatively speaking, and to whom grapple checks are almost a foregone conclusion.)

[The Great Skenardo]

i'd have the 'weapon' take equal damage, and i'd have the weapon's damage be dependant on the size, ie: tiny 1d4, small 1d6, medium 1d8, large 1d10
and that you cannot use any creature larger than your size(since you cant use a weapon that's bigger)
reasoning: there is absolutely no reason you can swing a half-orc but not a gnome

Actually, I'd hold that there's some pretty good reason for not being able to use a gnome: To a creature of large or larger size, A gnome or halfling would make a far better sling stone than it would a melee weapon, due to comparable size. It would be a bit like Triaxxx's idea of using rabbits as weapons, from the Ogre's point of view. Far better to grab a heavily-armored warrior and use her as a club.

[Diggorian]

I get ya Skenardo.

Thing is a large Half Ogre's great club is 16 lbs. and does 2d8. A dwarven fighter weighs 275 lb and does 1d8?

From the section on weapon sizes the large great club is a large object. Shouldnt the medium size dwarf be 1d10 (a size step down from the 2d8)?

[The Great Skenardo]

The thing is, a club is made of wood that doesn't give, whereas the dwarf (although perhaps armored) is made of flesh and blood and muscle. I take your point. 1d10 it is.

[Diggorian]

Cool.

Any other concerns?