Squad based combat system-Any advice?

[Philemonite]

Inspired by FFXIII's paradigm shift I was thinking of working on a system that uses similar mechanics. Switching roles in combat is an interesting concept and it could be implemented in a tabletop. Is anyone interested in throwing some ideas around?

[Grinner]

First, I think it would be prudent to define what roles there are.

You could go the "sword guy, magic guy, sneaky guy" route, where the roles are defined by their superficial qualities. Or you could go the "tank, DPS, healer" route, where the roles are defined by their purpose.

Also worth considering is the purpose of switching roles, and the means by which this would be justified in-game.

[Alanzeign]

Personally, I think the FFXIII combat system works best when it revolves around single player, and in real time. I can only imagine the issues with constantly changing roles (which are essentially classes) within, say, a PbP experience. It's not that it isn't an interesting idea, I just don't see how it can be evaluated effectively, unless there are very few character types that can actually be played.

Now the Lore that surrounds FFXIII and it's followers, that is a gold mine of untapped potential (because both FFXIII and FFXIII-2 are awful at refining the brilliant material given to them). If someone were to create a game based on FF13 Lore I'd be interested, but utilizing paradigm shifts is an aspect of real time battle, which PbP can never be and generic systems, such as 3.5, aren't meant to handle.

[Philemonite]

First, I think it would be prudent to define what roles there are.

You could go the "sword guy, magic guy, sneaky guy" route, where the roles are defined by their superficial qualities. Or you could go the "tank, DPS, healer" route, where the roles are defined by their purpose.

Also worth considering is the purpose of switching roles, and the means by which this would be justified in-game.

I was thinking more along the lines of 4e combat roles (and they are similar to FFXIII roles).

I was thinking something like The Last Remnant. Every player would lead a small military unit and every paradigm would be an order. List of possible orders would depend on the commander and available units.

Personally, I think the FFXIII combat system works best when it revolves around single player, and in real time. I can only imagine the issues with constantly changing roles (which are essentially classes) within, say, a PbP experience. It's not that it isn't an interesting idea, I just don't see how it can be evaluated effectively, unless there are very few character types that can actually be played.

Now the Lore that surrounds FFXIII and it's followers, that is a gold mine of untapped potential (because both FFXIII and FFXIII-2 are awful at refining the brilliant material given to them). If someone were to create a game based on FF13 Lore I'd be interested, but utilizing paradigm shifts is an aspect of real time battle, which PbP can never be and generic systems, such as 3.5, aren't meant to handle.

The idea is not to copy the battle system, but rather to make a system inspired by it. It wouldn't actually be changing classes, and not everyone will have access to every role. It's more of an idea of predetermined patterns that can be switched in combat.

FFXIII setting would be relatively easy to implement in D&D, but that's not my idea.

[Grinner]

I was thinking more along the lines of 4e combat roles (and they are similar to FFXIII roles).

I was thinking something like The Last Remnant. Every player would lead a small military unit and every paradigm would be an order. List of possible orders would depend on the commander and available units.

I had been thinking something like a game/magic system where players collect and develop magic doohickeys that each allow them different powers. That's cool too, though. Are you sure you're not trying to make a skirmish game?

[Alanzeign]

I'm not a huge fan of tank, dps, healer combos, though FFXIII is a bit more refined than that with 2 support roles and 2 dps roles that both manipulate the chain gauge differently.

As for a system with each player taking control of a small group of people that fulfill certain roles, with limited access to how much leeway they can be given, that sounds pretty interesting.

I think it would start out inspired by FFXIII and turn into something completely different, though that's not necessarily a bad thing.

So are you thinking RP-wise you are the commander, but mechanics-wise you are the unit?

Thoughts that come to mind:

1. Commanders are separate from units in the way they grow. Players are commanders.

2. Commanders take on a path (similar to 4e) that determines their different knowledges, strengths, weaknesses, which all influence the types of orders they can employ.

3. Units have a given primary role, and based on the primary they gain secondary roles. The primary role is capable of executing orders that are associated with it at a high level, while the secondary roles performs less well, though still adequately at following those types of orders. Orders that fall under roles not associated with a unit only work in the most basic functionality, and highly complicated orders in those role can't be carried out at all.

So say your commander takes on a generalist path, equally able to create semi-complex orders for all roles.

A unit (say, 5 people) is a combat heavy shoot first, talk second type. The commander could easily direct them to obvious strategic points and formations that are associated with the front lines. Room clearing, UED spotting, etc. (depending on the tech level of the game, this example is more modern as FFXIII is).

Now you want them to do more subtle commands such as scouting and possible espionage. They don't perform as well here as they aren't suited for it, and you as a generalist commander aren't specifically geared towards directing groups towards that role, so you come out somewhere around mediocrity.

Now say one of them is critically wounded. You as a generalist know how to help and advise a bit, but their group can only grasp the absolute basics of Tactical Combat Casualty Care. It is pretty much impossible with your commander's path and your unit's role to save that guy's leg. Instead, you have them place a tourniquet on it and evacuate. By the time you come across a group that is capable of helping, the leg has been lost.

Something like that? As far as actually devising a system to do things like that from the ground up, well the devil is in the details. That's a lot of work. Special attention would have to be given to how commanders and units of different types would work together when combined, as generally you don't play by yourself in these types of games.

You could even divide it further and have each individual soldier have their own talents and such, that as their commander you could nurture. There's the possibility of switching to a different unit and having different soldiers under your control from time to time, or switching between other player commanders. That seems like quite a bit of work, but it's an interesting thought.

That said, I have basically no experience with tabletop wargames or skirmish types.

[Philemonite]

I had been thinking something like a game/magic system where players collect and develop magic doohickeys that each allow them different powers. That's cool too, though. Are you sure you're not trying to make a skirmish game?

It does seam to be going in that direction.

I'm not a huge fan of tank, dps, healer combos, though FFXIII is a bit more refined than that with 2 support roles and 2 dps roles that both manipulate the chain gauge differently.

As for a system with each player taking control of a small group of people that fulfill certain roles, with limited access to how much leeway they can be given, that sounds pretty interesting.

I was thinking of four basic roles (attack, defense, support, control) with every role divided in sub-roles.

Half of the battle would be done before the actual combat, when you are setting up your commands (like setting up paradigms).

I think it would start out inspired by FFXIII and turn into something completely different, though that's not necessarily a bad thing.

So are you thinking RP-wise you are the commander, but mechanics-wise you are the unit?

It is already leaning more towards The Last Remnant, without the random commands.

That's what I was thinking.

Thoughts that come to mind:

1. Commanders are separate from units in the way they grow. Players are commanders.

2. Commanders take on a path (similar to 4e) that determines their different knowledges, strengths, weaknesses, which all influence the types of orders they can employ.

3. Units have a given primary role, and based on the primary they gain secondary roles. The primary role is capable of executing orders that are associated with it at a high level, while the secondary roles performs less well, though still adequately at following those types of orders. Orders that fall under roles not associated with a unit only work in the most basic functionality, and highly complicated orders in those role can't be carried out at all.

I was thinking that every commander can have multiple skill trees with multiple ranks for every ability. Having a higher rank in an ability allows you to create more diverse orders. To get a Cure/Cure/Cure order you only need one rank, but if you want Cure/Cure/Protect you will need at least two rank, since both are support abilities but different sub-types. Cure/Protect/Blizzard command would require higher ranks since that is a combination of two different roles.
Soldiers can start with 2 or 3 basic abilities and learn new once based on their class.

So say your commander takes on a generalist path, equally able to create semi-complex orders for all roles.

A unit (say, 5 people) is a combat heavy shoot first, talk second type. The commander could easily direct them to obvious strategic points and formations that are associated with the front lines. Room clearing, UED spotting, etc. (depending on the tech level of the game, this example is more modern as FFXIII is).

Now you want them to do more subtle commands such as scouting and possible espionage. They don't perform as well here as they aren't suited for it, and you as a generalist commander aren't specifically geared towards directing groups towards that role, so you come out somewhere around mediocrity.

Now say one of them is critically wounded. You as a generalist know how to help and advise a bit, but their group can only grasp the absolute basics of Tactical Combat Casualty Care. It is pretty much impossible with your commander's path and your unit's role to save that guy's leg. Instead, you have them place a tourniquet on it and evacuate. By the time you come across a group that is capable of helping, the leg has been lost.

Something like that? As far as actually devising a system to do things like that from the ground up, well the devil is in the details. That's a lot of work. Special attention would have to be given to how commanders and units of different types would work together when combined, as generally you don't play by yourself in these types of games.

Something like that, except more fantasy and combat based.
It is a lot of work, the hardest thing would be to balance it. I would like for every role to be useful, just like in FFXIII.

You could even divide it further and have each individual soldier have their own talents and such, that as their commander you could nurture. There's the possibility of switching to a different unit and having different soldiers under your control from time to time, or switching between other player commanders. That seems like quite a bit of work, but it's an interesting thought.

Every soldier will have it's own class and different commands available.
Switching soldiers would be interesting.

[Alanzeign]

I haven't played The Last Remnant and don't know anything about it, but the ideas you are talking about are interesting. Since the mechanics would be based a lot around order types and complexity, along with unit/soldier types/talents, would there be a significant AI portion involved amongst the soldiers after they receive orders?

If there isn't, it seems like it would just be a ton of micromanagement that would trivialize the commander abilities. If it is, the issue at hand would be deciding on what modifiers and RNG type you want to use to simulate the AI. I'll definitely keep watch on the thread to see how you progress with it.

[Philemonite]

I haven't played The Last Remnant and don't know anything about it, but the ideas you are talking about are interesting.

Best thing about the battle system is that you get to lead a few small squads and give them general commands. In the end you can have up to 5 squads with 18 characters total. Every turn a small list of commands is generated for every squad for every enemy group. The commands are general based on leader's class, available abilities and a few other things. Half of the battle is creating squads and arranging your available characters. It's very unique.

Since the mechanics would be based a lot around order types and complexity, along with unit/soldier types/talents, would there be a significant AI portion involved amongst the soldiers after they receive orders?

If there isn't, it seems like it would just be a ton of micromanagement that would trivialize the commander abilities. If it is, the issue at hand would be deciding on what modifiers and RNG type you want to use to simulate the AI. I'll definitely keep watch on the thread to see how you progress with it.

I was thinking of making the orders a combination of direct commands allowing every commander to make his own list of orders. This will make the preparation very interesting or very boring if you aren't into that. It doesn't have to be too much micromanagement, I can keep the list of abilities relatively short.

If I go the other way it would be hard to make an effective system for determining what each soldier would do for every order. Attack abilities wouldn't be too much trouble even of they are random. Support abilities would be a big pain. Determining when to heal HP, when to buff and when to remove negative effects would be a pain and players would probably want more control.

[Philemonite]

This are just ideas, any feedback would be welcome.

Just like in 4E HP will be an abstract value. They will represent not just your physical health, but also your morale and your energy. HP will not be individual, instead it will be counted for the entire squad. So, if a soldier 1 has 8 HP, and soldiers 2 and 3 have 10 the squad would have 28 HP total.

Every soldier start with one of four basic classes:
Priest is a support class. They use healing, buffing and curing abilities.
Magician is a control class. They use status effects, debuffs and dispels.
Squire is a defense class. They use guards, stances and taunts to defend from damage and negative effects.
Archers is an attack class. Their attack deal damage to opponent's squads.
This are tier 1 classes. The names will be changed.

Tier 2 classes specialize in one of the 3 aspects of every role, so there will be 12 of them.
Tier 3 classes will branch out to other roles. Example would be Paladin that can use healing and guard abilities. They can be accessed from both Squire and Priest.
Tier 4 and above classes will have a lot more options, but they will be hard to reach.

Sub-roles:

Healing-HP recovery
Cure-Remove negative effects
Buff-Stat boosts

Status effects-Sleep, Poison...
Debuffs-Stat reductions
Dispel-Remove positive effects

Guard-Reduces damage
Stance-Resists effects
Taunt-Draws enemy attention

Attacks-Physical, Mental and Energy


Base stats. I was thinking only four five, to cover the four five roles. Making them neutral is a bit complicated. Power sounds appropriate for Attack abilities and Fortitude for defense. Intelligence or something similar could be used for control abilities. I'm thinking Empathy for support, but I'm not sure. And Influence for assist.
Anyway, this stats will not affect defenses, those will be done through particular resistance.

I have always been a fan of skill trees. My idea is to have 12 skill trees, one for every sub-role. Tier 1 soldiers would start with 3 skill trees and gain new once as they progress through tiers. Every class would add a tier level for some skill trees. This will be similar to maximum spell level in D&D.
Let's say you take Priest as your base class. You would have tier 1 healing, buffs and cure.
You pick a Healer as a tier 2 class and you get +1 tier to healing skills. You now have tier 1 buffs and cure and tier 2 healing.
You pick Paladin as your tier 3 class and you get to pick two support and two defense skill trees. If you pick healing, buffs, guard and taunt you would have tier 1 cure, guard and taunt, tier 2 buffs and tier 3 healing.

Higher tiers in skill trees give you access to more powerful abilities.

To be continued...

[Philemonite]

This idea is evolving and expanding.

I decide to expand the number of roles.

Support
-Healing-HP healing
-Buff-Defensive increase
-Boost-Offense increase

Defense
-Guard-Reduces damage
-Stance-Resists effects
-Taunt-Draws enemy attention

Control
-Weaken-Reduces defense
-Dull-Reduces offense
-Cripple-Status effects

Attack
-Physical
-Mental
-Energy

Assist
-Cleanse-Removes effects
-Summoning-Summons allies
-Shield-Prevents effects