OOTS #918 - The Discussion Thread

[zimmerwald1915]

doing

This is a key word. I said "accomplishing", as in "carrying a goal to completion" not "doing", as in "undertaking an action". Sure, she researched a few spells...which have never once been successfully used on Haley, Belkar, Roy, Girard, or Serini. She decided to help O-Chul...which was both entirely futile and utterly tangential to the MitD's decision to wish them out of the tower. Indeed, I was a bit surprised when the MitD teleported V along with O-Chul. Not only did he have nowhere near the same emotional connection to the elf that he had with "Mister Stiffly", but he could have recognized her as part of the Order he was "supposed to devour". Sending to Roy didn't accomplish anything, since Roy decided to stay in Bloodstone. Dominating Yukyuk also didn't accomplish anything practical, though it did give V an opportunity to showcase the low regard in which she holds most people (and a reptilian at that! Coincidence?).

I'll grant you the worm and finding Girard's trap. The plan to search the various cities for Draketooths, however, was Haley's.

[FlawedParadigm]

Oy hey! The big X won't take kindly to insinuations like that. For the last time, he's NOT one of those filthy biophiliacs, so I think it's best for everyone if you let such accusations drop.

Well I didn't suggest all of Sabine's options would necessarily be reciprocal or even willing, just that it was a short list, at least of characters we know.

Although Belkar and debatably Redcloak should be on the list, yes. Roy gets a pass because he doesn't usually - and certainly not reliably - murder. He kills, yes, but usually in self-defence or for heroic reasons. There's a difference between killing and murder, which is why Belkar saying Durkon was "straight-up murdered" for saving his life was so poignant; it was the first time Belkar ever acknowledged murder as a negative thing. Actually if I recall, the time before that he last referenced murder was to say "Plus, murder, which is always hilarious." When explaining to Crystal why he wasn't going to kill her, if memory serves.

Truthfully, Redcloak probably just wouldn't be interested, we know Xykon wouldn't be. V specifically has a thing against fiends, but has also had a couple of bonding moments with Sabine specifically. Rough call. I'm pretty sure she'd get a "Hell yes!" from Tarquin or Belkar, though.

Uh...no pun intended.

[FlawedParadigm]

how should we call the new couple?

VaarBine?
Sabsubius?
VAASA?

what's life without a little romance?

Vaasabius?

[Shale]

She poured a healing potion into the unconscious O-chul's mouth, which is the only reason they were able to get their hands on the phylactery again. Which, in turn, is the only reason Team Evil didn't make directly for the pyramid while the Order was still telling StickTales on their boat.

[Sir_Leorik]

This is a key word. I said "accomplishing", as in "carrying a goal to completion" not "doing", as in "undertaking an action". Sure, she researched a few spells...which have never once been successfully used on Haley, Belkar, Roy, Girard, or Serini. She decided to help O-Chul...which was both entirely futile and utterly tangential to the MitD's decision to wish them out of the tower. Indeed, I was a bit surprised when the MitD teleported V along with O-Chul. Not only did she have nowhere near the same emotional connection to the elf that she had with "Mister Stiffly", but he could have recognized her as part of the Order he was "supposed to devour". Sending to Roy didn't accomplish anything, since Roy decided to stay in Bloodstone. Dominating Yukyuk also didn't accomplish anything practical, though it did give V an opportunity to showcase the low regard in which she holds most people (and a reptilian at that! Coincidence?).

I'll grant you the worm and finding Girard's trap. The plan to search the various cities for Draketooths, however, was Haley's.

Charming the Purple Worm not only prevented a combat encounter, it also allowed the Order to both find a means of transportation and make a Dune joke. That's three accomplishments with one spell. Dominating Yokyok kept Yokyok from killing Mr. Scruffy, and gave V an ally to help in rescuing Princess Gootrude. That's two accomplishments. Sending to Roy allowed Roy to make a decision about the Order's next move. That's an accomplishment. (For these guys that's a major accomplishment. ) And the decision to search nearby cities was a joint effort, based on V, Haley and Roy's deductions.

I have concluded that you will never view Vaarsuvius as anything other than a coward, so I will make no further attempts to highlight her bravery. She is arrogant, egocentric and prone to anger, but she is not a coward. Too bad you can't recognize that.

[Grey Watcher]

So Lee's day job is the infernal equivalent of the angel introduced in this strip?

[zimmerwald1915]

Charming the Purple Worm not only prevented a combat encounter, it also allowed the Order to both find a means of transportation and make a Dune joke. That's three accomplishments with one spell.

I did say I was granting you the purple worm

Dominating Yokyok kept Yokyok from killing Mr. Scruffy, and gave V an ally to help in rescuing Princess Gootrude. That's two accomplishments.

Mister Scruffy had escaped from Yukyuk well before V dominated him. She did prevent him from looting Haley's treasure, so that's something I guess. The speculation about whose actions were efficacious in restoring Princess Gootrude (which, again, I gave V credit for accomplishing in my post) is just that: speculation.

Sending to Roy allowed Roy to make a decision about the Order's next move. That's an accomplishment. (For these guys that's a major accomplishment. )

Roy had already made up his mind before the sending, and Haley and Elan ended up disregarding his orders and breaking into Bloodstone anyway.

I have concluded that you will never view Vaarsuvius as anything other than a coward, so I will make no further attempts to highlight her bravery. She is arrogant, egocentric and prone to anger, but she is not a coward. Too bad you can't recognize that.

Why is it important to you to highlight the good qualities of mass murderers?

[Forikroder]

This is a key word. I said "accomplishing", as in "carrying a goal to completion" not "doing", as in "undertaking an action". Sure, she researched a few spells...which have never once been successfully used on Haley, Belkar, Roy, Girard, or Serini. She decided to help O-Chul...which was both entirely futile and utterly tangential to the MitD's decision to wish them out of the tower. Indeed, I was a bit surprised when the MitD teleported V along with O-Chul. Not only did he have nowhere near the same emotional connection to the elf that he had with "Mister Stiffly", but he could have recognized her as part of the Order he was "supposed to devour". Sending to Roy didn't accomplish anything, since Roy decided to stay in Bloodstone. Dominating Yukyuk also didn't accomplish anything practical, though it did give V an opportunity to showcase the low regard in which she holds most people (and a reptilian at that! Coincidence?).

I'll grant you the worm and finding Girard's trap. The plan to search the various cities for Draketooths, however, was Haley's.

V going back to save Ochul means they managed to lose Xykons phylactery, which put Xykon in such a rage that he decided to kill them prompting the wish

otherwise Xykon would have just tossed them in a cell and tortured them to death

also by losing the Phylactery he gave redcloak the opportunity to replace it with a fake (and the resistance almost managed to get away with the Phylactery thanks to V losing it) which could have massive consequences alter on

dominating Yukyuk didnt accomplish anything? what? he used Yukyuk to defeat Z preventing him from using his magical abilities on the other members of the order V took out 2 members of the LG by himself the only other member of the order who managed to take someone out was Roy

[quasit]

also V was the reason they were searching the citys trying to find someone which led to Elan V and haley getting caught, which led to them finding the gate in the first place

In fact that was Roy's work, letting elan wander around hoping that he would trip over the main plot

[Rogar Demonblud]

And I thought my Inbox looked bad after my vacation...

You can add Bozzok to the mass murderer list, too.

[Amphiox]

One can hardly call V a reliable mass murderer. The beings wants to kill not infrequent fail to get killed, while a huge number of those had no intention of killing ended up very, very dead.

That's the epitome of unreliable, really.

[Muenster Man]

So Lee's day job is the infernal equivalent of the angel introduced in this strip?

I suppose the bureaucratic responsibilities of beings literally made of Law are surprisingly similar, regardless of the Good-Evil axis.

[Kevka Palazzo]

Why is it important to you to highlight the good qualities of mass murderers?

Because while V is certainly guilty of mass murder, V is also showing signs of real guilt and a desire to redeem virself.

Plenty of platitudes and little sayings I could make here ("Nothing sweet ever came from bitterness", something about the importance of forgiveness, etc...), but V does have good qualities, and is certainly not the same person who cast Familicide anymore.

[zyxophoj]

So V is back.

Going along with a certain theme, I hope we now witness the firepower of this FULLY PREPARED AND OPERATIONAL EVOKER.

I think the order is still in big trouble though. Tarquin is throwing the mooks in first because that's what villains traditionally do. It doesn't really cost him much - as a high-level bad guy, Tarquin effectively has a Decanter of Endless Minions.

The real problem is what villains do after all the low-level minions are dead. Even if they destroy the whole army, the order has to deal with a 3 or more adventurers of higher level than they are.

[Wolv90]

Funny how you guys haven't even entertained the thought that Tarquin and co. could lose.

That's the best thing about Tarquin and co. At this point, they can't lose! Sure they could be killed or exiled or generally defeated, but they still would have been living large and doing whatever they wanted for a long time. That's why "beating" him is such a challenge for Elan, no matter how he goes down Tarquin will never lose the years he was on top.

[martianmister]

Hmm...
Cedric would be a Chaotic Evil Demigod Right In Charge

Nero: Neutral Evil Random Omnipresence?

Suggestions please

Been there, done that:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showp...&postcount=207

[zimmerwald1915]

Because while V is certainly guilty of mass murder, V is also showing signs of real guilt and a desire to redeem virself.

Not good enough.

[NihhusHuotAliro]

That's the best thing about Tarquin and co. At this point, they can't lose! Sure they could be killed or exiled or generally defeated, but they still would have been living large and doing whatever they wanted for a long time. That's why "beating" him is such a challenge for Elan, no matter how he goes down Tarquin will never lose the years he was on top.

Memory wipe.

Or, alternatively, trap him in a soul jar until the decades he was on top are nothing to the hundreds of thousands of years imprisoned. Leave the soul jar deep in a boulder in a mountain so he can't see anything outside but darkness. Have nobody else in the soul jar so he'll be alone... alone... alone...

Not good enough.

I think that if the comic had been about black dragons, and we had gotten to know those black dragons that were killed; we would be a lot more upset at V.

Remember how upset we were when Durkon died?

[Aquatosic]

If they survive this battle, they are gonna get sooooo much XP. Especially Roy and Haley. What levels do those guys have anyway at this point?

[Wolv90]

I suppose the bureaucratic responsibilities of beings literally made of Law are surprisingly similar, regardless of the Good-Evil axis.

The only difference I see is that the Evil side has an easier time explaining letting the souls pile up in a box for a few days. Though the bank teller rope lines that all the souls from http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0486.html <-this might be worst depending on who was under/on top of you.

[zero]

I just noticed a nice touch from the Giant: Twenty minutes = twenty stripts

[TRH]

If they survive this battle, they are gonna get sooooo much XP. Especially Roy and Haley. What levels do those guys have anyway at this point?

Actually, I doubt they get any XP from killing these soldiers - they're too weak to be a challenge.

edit: Yay, I actually ninja'd someone!

[Guppy]

Forgive me if this has already been brought up, but is there any possibility that V has actually been paying off his time-debt at double-time rates, thanks to the 2nd innocent soul that's been bound with him?

[Rabbit]

If they survive this battle, they are gonna get sooooo much XP. Especially Roy and Haley. What levels do those guys have anyway at this point?

I'm not sure how much XP they'll be getting, actually. Collectively, the entire army (excluding the dinosaurs, maybe) might be equivalent in difficulty to the Sand Elemental Redcloak summoned earlier. All of these soldiers are probably first or second level grunts; virtually no matter what anyone in the Order rolls, they're probably each killing at least one soldier a round (nevermind the ones falling to friendly fire/Durkon's domination), whereas the soldiers themselves will be lucky, between their entire army, to hit a single member of the Order in a given round.

As for the dinosaurs... those might yield a bit more XP.

[Muenster Man]

Forgive me if this has already been brought up, but is there any possibility that V has actually been paying off his time-debt at double-time rates, thanks to the 2nd innocent soul that's been bound with him?

Pretty sure the two of them count as one soul for this purpose. That's why Blackwing was brought in the first place. So, no.

[Shining Wrath]

He backstabbed Elan for turning him down. Set Elan up for multiple homicides (and demon summoning), tried to murder Haley in a ritual sacrifice... The list goes on, Nale is evil, even if he experiences moments of incompetence.

That being said, it would be nice if he could still be redeemed somehow.

What really makes me glad, 918 pages in, and the comic still hasn't jumped the shark. It's a different medium, but I like to compare this to Futurama (the good ones). Smart and funny parody.

I think it's the Lawful part that's up for debate.

This is a minor quibble, but... how many of Tarquin's soldiers are evil? I'm under the impression that most militaries work to make their soldiers Lawful Neutral, obey orders without thinking about them too hard? Do they really commit enough atrocities to push enough of them into 'Evil' to form a stack in Lee (it is Lee, right?)'s inbox?

Or is the body count being produced by Roy and Durkon large enough that only a fraction of the soldiers they kill can form the stack we see in the last panel?

The latter.

[SavageWombat]

I just noticed a nice touch from the Giant: Twenty minutes = twenty stripts

Oh, please no. V sitting out another 43-odd strips, twice?

[AKA_Bait]

I think that if the comic had been about black dragons, and we had gotten to know those black dragons that were killed; we would be a lot more upset at V.

Maybe not. Black Dragons are usually not nice people.

Remember how upset we were when Durkon died?

If memory serves, that wasn't even that bad, forum-wise. Durkon's death was foretold, so we were all at least aware that it was going to happen sometime. When Roy died, however, there was some serious consternation.

If they survive this battle, they are gonna get sooooo much XP. Especially Roy and Haley. What levels do those guys have anyway at this point?

Not so sure. They may be too high a level to get xp for killing mooks.

edit: ninja'd

[Porthos]

Oh, please no. V sitting out another 43-odd strips, twice?

It would only be three strips though in one case.

[Oko and Qailee]

That's the best thing about Tarquin and co. At this point, they can't lose! Sure they could be killed or exiled or generally defeated, but they still would have been living large and doing whatever they wanted for a long time. That's why "beating" him is such a challenge for Elan, no matter how he goes down Tarquin will never lose the years he was on top.

Just because he says he wins no matter what doesn't mean he actually will. He's saying that now, but once hes suffering for eternity in the 9th layer of hell he sure as hell wont think he won.

It doesn't matter that currently Tarquin thinks he won no matter what. Reality isn't what Tarquin thinks, if it was he would be the BBEG not Xykon, instead he's just a sidequest.