[3.5] Savannah's consolidated skill system

[Savannah]

Introduction
This consolidated skill system is based on the D&D 3.5 skill system. Anything not detailed below is the same as in standard 3.5.

I’ve had problems with the 3.5 skill system for a long time. I find that there are too many skills, meaning that those classes with very few skill points aren’t able to do much of anything, and those that are supposed to be skill monkeys still aren’t able to do everything they want to. Many of these skills are used together (how many times do you try to move silently without hiding as well?), meaning that characters practically have to spend skill points on keeping two skills maxed and have twice as many chances to fail for any given action. Additionally, some skills are less useful than others (Heal vs. Use Magic Device, for example), meaning that those skills are almost never taken.

My goal in rewriting the skill system is first to reduce the number of skills available so that a character’s few skill points go further, and second to make less useful or highly situational skills more useful, either in their own right or as one part of a more useful skill.

Using Skills in Game

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In addition to the normal (active) skill checks, passive skill checks are used to determine if characters notice something they are not actively looking for or know something they are not actively trying to remember (i.e. the DM gives the player information without the player asking). Your passive skill check works the same as taking 10 and can only be used in situations where taking 10 would be allowed.

Skills that use passive checks include (but are not limited to) Intuition, Knowledge, and Perception.

Gaining Skills when Leveling

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Determining Class Skills
If a class was proficient in one of these skills, the new, consolidated skill is a class skill for that class. For example, Bluff and Disguise have been rolled into Deception. Bluff was a class skill for sorcerers (while Disguise was not), so Deception is a class skill for sorcerers, who are now able to disguise themselves as well.

Synergy Bonuses
There are no synergy bonuses.

Cross-Class Skills
Taking ranks in a cross-class skill still costs two skill points, but there is no cap on how many cross class skill ranks a character can have.

Skill List

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New Skill	Ability	Was
AcrobaticsA	Dex	Balance, Escape Artist, Tumble
AthleticsA	Str	Climb, Jump, Swim
Concentration	Con	Concentration
Craft	Int	Craft, Forgery*
Deception	Cha	Bluff, Disguise
Disable DeviceT	Dex	Disable Device, Open Lock
Handle Animal	Cha	Handle Animal, Ride
Heal	Wis	Heal*
Intuition	Wis	Gather Information, Sense Motive
Knowledge (arcana)T	Int	Knowledge*
Knowledge (engineering)T	Int	Knowledge*
Knowledge (history)T	Int	Knowledge*
Knowledge (present day)T	Int	Knowledge*
Knowledge (nature)T	Int	Knowledge*
Knowledge (planes)T	Int	Knowledge*
Knowledge (religion)T	Int	Knowledge*
Linguistics	Int	Decipher Script, Speak Language*
Perception	Wis	Listen, Spot
Perform	Cha	Perform
Persuasion	Cha	Diplomacy*, Intimidate*
ProfessionT	Wis	Profession
Search	Int	Search
Sleight of HandA, T	Dex	Sleight of Hand
SpellcraftT	Int	Spellcraft
StealthA	Dex	Hide, Move Silently
Survival	Wis	Survival, Use Rope
Use Magic DeviceT	Cha	Use Magic Device

^A Armor check penalty applies
^T Trained only
* Substantially changed, see below for details

Changed Skills

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Appraise
Appraise no longer exists as a skill, as I find that it adds nothing to the game. PCs can figure out what something is worth automatically. On the rare occasions that not knowing the value of an item will actually add to the players' experience, substitute an Intelligence, Craft, or Knowledge check, as appropriate.

Craft
Forgery is now a type of Craft and is opposed by Intuition.

Heal
In addition to the normal uses of Heal, you can cure hit point damage. This only works once per character per encounter for injuries sustained in that encounter, and takes 5 minutes of patching up. This is intended to as out-of-combat healing after combat or other injury.

A DC 20 Heal check cures 1d6+Wis modifier hit points (minimum 1 hit point). For every five points the check beats the DC, the check cures another d6+Wis modifier hit points.

Knowledge skills

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Knowledge skills allow you to recognize creatures, know and remember facts, figure things out, and identify important pieces of information. The following are samples of things covered under each knowledge skill.

Knowledge (arcana)
Scholars of magic, magical locations, meaning of arcane symbols, whether or not an item was created by magic, aberrations, constructs, dragons, magical beasts, and oozes.

Knowledge (engineering)
Types of material, typical floorplans, typical city layout, how to fortify a location, how to break fortifications, how to build siege engines, slope of the floor, style and approximate age of a structure, former use of structures and rooms within structures, whether a structure is artificial or natural, structural weaknesses, hazardous artificial terrain (unstable floor, weak bridge, etc), most likely location of structural feature (throne room, stairs, door to secret chamber, etc).

Knowledge (history)
Historical events (generally a decade old or more), myths and legends, historical kingdom boundaries, legendary sites, historical wars and feuds, unsolved ancient mysteries, historical rulers, family history and line of succession for rulers, dates of specific events.

Knowledge (present day)
Laws, etiquette and customs, current kingdom boundaries, ongoing wars and feuds, rulers and their symbols, rumors and scandals, important people (heir to the throne, queen’s advisor, high priest, crime lord, etc), secret societies, popular locations, recent events (generally within the last decade), a creature’s homeland.

Knowledge (nature)
Geography, seasons and climate, major terrain features, typical dangers of various terrains, upcoming weather, your current location, whether a structure is natural or artificial, depth underground, natural hazards (conditions for avalanche, cave-in, wildfire, etc), unnatural weather, animals, fey, giants, humanoids, monstrous humanoids, plants, vermin.

Knowledge (planes)
Names and types of planes, features of a plane, planar dangers, what plane you’re on, what plane a creature is from, elementals, outsiders.

Knowledge (religion)
Gods, portfolios and domains, holy symbols, important priests, rituals of worship, cults, undead.

Linguistics

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The Decipher Script aspect of this skill works as normal. The Speak Language aspect is changed as follows:

Fluency
Speaking and writing languages are now tracked separately. Within each, there are three levels of fluency:

{table=head]Fluency | Speaking/hearing | Writing/reading | Game effects

1

| You understand the basics of the language. You can exchange pleasantries, ask for directions, purchase items, and other day-to-day tasks, but you struggle with extended or detailed conversations. You have a heavy accent and are clearly not a native speaker. | You can read at a grade-school level. While you can understand basic signs and similar text, legal contracts and the like are beyond you. | This level of fluency imposes a −2 to −6 penalty to all language-based skill checks, depending on the complexity of the ideas conveyed and the formality of the situation (chatting up a barmaid vs. negotiating with the king, for example).

2

| You have a solid grasp of the language. You can easily go about your day speaking the language and have reasonably detailed conversations without struggling for words, but idioms and formal or archaic language still trip you up. You may have a minor accent and those who spend a long time conversing with you can tell you are not a native speaker or are a fairly uneducated native speaker. | You can read at a high-school level. You can easily get by in your daily life, but struggle with legal contracts and technical language. | This level of fluency imposes a −0 to −2 penalty to all language-based skill checks, depending on the complexity of the ideas conveyed and the formality of the situation (most of the time you will have no penalty, but a discussion of the theory of magic, negotiating a treaty, and similar will have a penalty).

3

| You are an educated, fluent speaker. Not only can you easily go about your day speaking the language, but you can also handle complex or formal speech. | You can read at or above college level and can understand complex or technical documents. | This level of fluency never imposes a penalty to any language-based skill checks. [/table]

Your level of fluency in a language is written [language] ([speaking]/[writing]). For example, someone who can speak Elven pretty well but cannot write it at all would have Elven (2/0).

Learning Languages
Characters of a race with one racial language start with 6 language points in their native tongue, making them fluent speakers and writers in that language. Optionally, they can spend one (and only one) of those points on a smattering of a second language from their bonus languages list.

Characters of a race with two racial languages start with 10 language points split between those languages (typically 3/3, 2/2 or 3/3, 3/1). Optionally, they can spend one (and only one) of those points on a smattering of a third language from their bonus languages list.

Characters with an Intelligence bonus gain 4 language points per point of Int bonus, which they can spend on their automatic or bonus languages.

Characters who put a rank in Linguistics gain 2 language points which they can spend however they please. Note that these come only from RANKS in Linguistics, not total bonus.

Fluency and Spells
Spells dealing with language (comprehend languages, tongues, etc) grant fluency at 3/3. Thus a spellcaster who speaks Goblin (1/0) would be wise to cast tongues, granting her Goblin 3/3, before beginning negotiations with the goblin chieftain.

Persuasion

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(Based on Rich Burlew’s Diplomacy fix, found here. See that thread for more details and definitions.)

This skill allows you to convince others to do as you wish, either through offering incentives for their cooperation or threats of negative consequences if they do not comply.

The base DC for a Persuasion check depends on who the target is. This number is then modified by the relationship between the characters and the risks and rewards of taking the deal.

Each check takes at least a minute of talking, and may require much more.

The Target
Base DC = 15 + the level of the highest-level character in the group (HD for monsters) + the highest Wisdom modifier in the group.

The Relationship
Generally, those with a close relationship find it easier to persuade through incentives than through threats, while those who are enemies find the opposite to be true. (If offering both a reward and a threat, use the threat column.)

Relationship	DC Modifier (reward)	DC Modifier (threat)
Intimate	−10	+10
Friend	−7	+7
Ally (no personal feelings)	−5	+5
Acquaintance (positive)	−2	+2
Just met	0	0
Acquaintance (negative)	+2	−2
Enemy (no personal feelings)	+5	−5
Personal foe	+7	−7
Nemesis	+10	−10

Risk vs. Reward Judgment
The risks and rewards of accepting and not accepting the proposal are considered from the perspective of the NPC.

DC modifier	Risk vs. Reward
−10	Fantastic: Great reward, little to no risk
−5	Favorable: Decent reward, tolerable risk
0	Even: Risk and reward are even or nonexistent
+5	Unfavorable: Moderate reward, large risk
+10	Horrible: Little to no reward, huge risk

Success?

Check	Result
Beats DC	Target accepts deal as-is or with minimal changes
Fails by ≤5	Target rejects deal, but might make counter offer that pushes the deal up by at least one step on the risk vs. reward scale
Fails by 6–9	Target rejects deal, but later deals may be possible
Fails by ≥10	Target rejects deal and will not consider further deals

When making a threat, regardless of the check result, the target is likely to become hostile to the persuader. When and how, or even if, they act on this hostility is up to the DM. Similarly, if the persuader offers a reward and carries through with it, the target is likely to become friendly (or friendlier) towards the persuader. Again, the details of how this plays out are up to the DM.

I would appreciate any thoughts you have on this system!

[The Mentalist]

Your added use of heal will change the game significantly, that's unlimited free out of combat healing (also it's basically unusable in a combat encounter with a 10 minute use time, and for out of combat an "Encounter" is such a nebulous amount of time that you really should give it a set time.) By RAW an encounter is any time you make a check or series of checks. I'll take some ranks in Concentration and lead guided meditations to reset the encounter clock. (That would actually be a cool character, the meditation healer.)

But other than that it looks pretty solid.

[Savannah]

Hah, good call. I meant it to be once per set of injuries, or combat encounter. I changed the wording -- does that make it better?

[The Mentalist]

Make a note that one heal effect affects one encounter and no other encounters. Otherwise I'm going to make combat encounters of stabbing my Barbarian in the stomach with a dagger for minimum damage and use the extra d6s of healing to work on where the dragon mauled him.

A little extra bookwork to keep track of which wounds were from which encounter but it saves a lot of abuse.

Though my stab with a dagger for minimum damage sounds a lot like an abstraction of how this might work as Surgery.

[TuggyNE]

Knowledge (present day)^T | Int | Knowledge*
Knowledge (present day)^T | Int | Knowledge*

Odd duplicate here.

Otherwise, seems sensible, I think.

[Savannah]

Odd duplicate here.

Otherwise, seems sensible, I think.

....I swear it was missing when I went back and added it in

[nonsi]

What about Knowledge (dungeoneering) ?

[Savannah]

I allow heal to do out-of-combat "first aid" as follows:

While that'd be okay for a game without much magical healing, I feel it heals way too little for most games.

What about Knowledge (dungeoneering) ?

Check out the new areas for the Knowledge skills -- everything dungeoneering covered is there.

[unbeliever536]

Other than my instinctive distaste for automatically learning languages, I like what you've done here. The proficiency levels you use for languages are more detailed and better defined than mine, and I might decide to use them myself.

I do have two suggestions: first, you could bring appraise back as a way for mundane characters to replicate spells like Identify, or roll such a use into spellcraft (and give spellcraft to other classes). I'm not sure how to build a DC structure, but it wouldn't be too hard if you based it off of the item's caster level. Second, I would just make the Heal skill restore 1d6 + Wis bonus (rather than Wis modifier). A trained healer shouldn't be unduly penalized for their ability score; as long as they make the check, they've succeeded and should be able to heal at least the base amount of 1d6.

[Savannah]

Other than my instinctive distaste for automatically learning languages, I like what you've done here. The proficiency levels you use for languages are more detailed and better defined than mine, and I might decide to use them myself.

Hmm....I like your system pretty well! I think on the whole it's not for me as my default system, though -- I don't mind automatically learning languages, and I feel that yours would add a bit more paperwork than I want. If I ever end up running a game that wants a bit more realism, I'm likely to come back to yours, though. Feel free to swipe my proficiency levels (with credit)

I do have two suggestions: first, you could bring appraise back as a way for mundane characters to replicate spells like Identify, or roll such a use into spellcraft (and give spellcraft to other classes). I'm not sure how to build a DC structure, but it wouldn't be too hard if you based it off of the item's caster level.

Honestly, my least favorite part of the game is this:

DM: ...and a really nice amulet.
Wizard: Detect Magic
DM: It's magical.
Wizard: Spellcraft. 18. I don't know.
Cleric: Spellcraft. 29.
DM: Amulet of natural armor +2.

Which is practically a direct quote from my current group. It wastes play time without adding any enjoyment or plot. I want to eliminate the rolling to ID objects entirely. (If you like it, I think using Appraise as a way to ID common magic items is a good idea.)

It's probably a hold over from my first DM, but if I want to make players learn what an object is, I'd much rather have them try it on and see what happens. That at least leads to amusing incidents.

Second, I would just make the Heal skill restore 1d6 + Wis bonus (rather than Wis modifier). A trained healer shouldn't be unduly penalized for their ability score; as long as they make the check, they've succeeded and should be able to heal at least the base amount of 1d6.

A fair point. I'm pretty sure I had a reason I said modifier, but I can't remember what it was now, so I'll have to think about it.

[unbeliever536]

Honestly, my least favorite part of the game is this:

DM: ...and a really nice amulet.
Wizard: Detect Magic
DM: It's magical.
Wizard: Spellcraft. 18. I don't know.
Cleric: Spellcraft. 29.
DM: Amulet of natural armor +2.

Which is practically a direct quote from my current group. It wastes play time without adding any enjoyment or plot. I want to eliminate the rolling to ID objects entirely. (If you like it, I think using Appraise as a way to ID common magic items is a good idea.)

It's probably a hold over from my first DM, but if I want to make players learn what an object is, I'd much rather have them try it on and see what happens. That at least leads to amusing incidents.

Good point. I feel like there should be a way to ID very basic magic items (ie, a level 10 wizard uses his understanding of spells and magic to figure out that the party just found a pair of Gauntlets of Ogre Power, or some such), and maybe a way to get a hint as to how to activate some other stuff ("This magical pair of boots has some kind of command word ability...maybe if I step-" *teleported fifty feet away*). That said, the situation you described would definitely be super boring.

[Vadskye]

Handle Animal and Ride should not be the same skill. Yes, they both involve animals, and the kind of character that has one might often choose to have the other. However, they are totally separate in usage and training. Does training dogs make you better at riding? How does being charismatic help you stay on a galloping horse any better?

Additionally, I can't help but offer my perspective on the Heal skill. If you want to significantly improve out of combat healing in a way that integrates more nicely with the game's current mechanics and feel, I'd recommend keeping it exactly the same except for Long-Term Care:

Long-Term Care: Providing long-term care means treating a wounded person for a day or more. If your Heal check is successful, the patient recovers hit points or attribute score points (lost to ability damage) at twice the normal rate: half the patient's hit points and one point of ability damage for 4 hours of rest, or all of the patient's hit points and two points of ability damage with 8 hours of rest.

You can tend as many as six patients at a time. You need a few items and supplies (bandages, salves, and so on) that are easy to come by in settled lands. Giving long-term care counts as light activity for the healer. You cannot give long-term care to yourself.

For every 5 by which you beat the DC, time your patients need to recover is halved. For example, a Heal check result of 25 would mean that the patients need only 2 hours of rest to fully heal, or half an hour to recover a quarter of their hit points.

This can provide a fairly dramatic reward for investing in the Heal skill over time - particularly for characters with a good Wisdom - but isn't as quasi-magical as just granting a small amount of HP. It keeps the separation between magical healing and nonmagical healing intact, which I think is desirable.

[Savannah]

Good point. I feel like there should be a way to ID very basic magic items (ie, a level 10 wizard uses his understanding of spells and magic to figure out that the party just found a pair of Gauntlets of Ogre Power, or some such), and maybe a way to get a hint as to how to activate some other stuff ("This magical pair of boots has some kind of command word ability...maybe if I step-" *teleported fifty feet away*). That said, the situation you described would definitely be super boring.

Seems like a good spot for a passive Spellcraft check to me. Then those who know magic don't have to roll for the easy stuff, and do have to figure out the really obscure stuff. I need to think about how I really want to handle magic items and maybe write up a quick passive spellcraft check chart for types and values of items identified...

Handle Animal and Ride should not be the same skill. Yes, they both involve animals, and the kind of character that has one might often choose to have the other. However, they are totally separate in usage and training.

I'm a dog trainer who doesn't ride; believe me I know that being good at one doesn't automatically make you good at the other. However, having them separate is an annoying skill tax. When would you have Ride without having Handle Animal for when you're on the ground? My aim is to eliminate that sort of thing. Also, I don't think it's as bad for verisimilitude as you think:

Does training dogs make you better at riding?

Yes. You know how to approach an animal and speak to it, you understand the importance of reading the animal's body language, and you know how to use reinforcement to get it to do what you want.

How does being charismatic help you stay on a galloping horse any better?

Physically sticking to the back of a horse galloping out of control? Probably not a lot. Getting the horse to gallop when and where you want so you don't have to hang on for dear life? Sounds like Charisma to me. (And even if you don't buy this argument, verisimilitude is not my goal. Making characters be able to do more things well is.)

This can provide a fairly dramatic reward for investing in the Heal skill over time - particularly for characters with a good Wisdom - but isn't as quasi-magical as just granting a small amount of HP. It keeps the separation between magical healing and nonmagical healing intact, which I think is desirable.

Not a bad option, but not really where I want to go with it. I don't really feel that granting hp is quasi-magical -- quite frankly there's no way that hp can represent only physical wounds, so I don't have an issue with granting hp through non-magical means such as letting someone catch their breath and quickly patching up any open wounds/broken bones/sprains/etc.

[Ashtagon]

While that'd be okay for a game without much magical healing, I feel it heals way too little for most games.

That was only part of my Heal skill solution. In all, my Heal skill allows:

First Aid (DC 10): A character can make a Heal check after another character is injured. This requires one minute. On a success, 1d6 hp are restored, +1 per point by which the check beat the DC number.

First aid cannot heal a character above the highest hp total he had in the last ten minutes.

If you attempt first aid on yourself, first aid is a DC 15 check instead of DC 10.

Long-Term Care (DC 15): With a medical kit, the successful application of this skill allows a patient to recover hit points and ability points lost to temporary damage at an advanced rate --- one extra hit point per character level and one extra ability point restored per day. A new check is made each day; on a failed check, recovery occurs at the normal rate for that day of rest and care.

A character can tend up to as many patients as he has ranks in the skill. The patients need complete bed rest (doing nothing all day). The character needs to devote at least ½ hour of the day to each patient the character is caring for.

Normal: A character heals 1 hp per character level and one ability score point per night of rest. One extra hit point per character level and one extra ability point is restored if the character has complete bed rest for the day.

Revive Dazed, Stunned, or Unconscious Character (DC 15): With a first aid kit, the character can remove the dazed, stunned, or unconscious condition from a character. This check is a standard action.

(nb. my negative hp rules are heavily houseruled; you don't automatically fall unconscious or become unstable in negative hp)

Stabilise Bleeding Character (DC 15): With a medical kit, a character can tend to a character who is bleeding. As a standard action, a successful Heal check stabilises another character. The stabilised character regains no hit points, but he stops losing them. The character must have a medical kit to stabilise a bleeding character.

You cannot stabilise your own bleeding condition.

(nb. I allow bleed conditions, inspired by the negative hp rules on unstable characters, to affect anyone. It is just another status effect. My bleed conditions can also be more than a single hit point per round.)

Surgery (DC 25): With a surgery kit, a character can conduct field surgery. Surgery requires 1d4 hours.

Surgery restores 1d6 hit points for every character level of the patient or the surgeon (whichever is lower) with a successful skill check. Surgery cannot increase a character's hp above his normal maximum.

Surgery can only be used on a character once in a 24 hour period. A character who undergoes surgery is fatigued for 24 hours, minus 2 hours for every point above the DC the surgeon achieves. The period of fatigue can never be reduced below 6 hours in this fashion.

(nb. based on the d20 Modern rule. I changed the DC to 24. Since I also removed the default penalty, the target number remains the same.)

Treat Disease (DC 15): A character can tend to a character infected with a treatable disease. This requires 30 minutes of care by the healer. The healer's Heal skill ranks are used in place of the patient's base Fortitude save bonus against the disease, if higher.

Treat Poison (DC 15): A character can tend to a poisoned character. This requires a standard action. The healer's Heal skill ranks are used in place of the patient's base Fortitude save bonus against the poison, if higher.

Other: The Heal skill can also be used to treat various long-term injuries and status effects. The details of these are generally written in the rules for those effects.

[Pesimismrocks]

Personally I'd put perform as Int and Handle animal as either wis or Int.
To me perform is more about learning how to play an instrument rather then your force of personality as well as your ability to compose interesting melodies and play complex songs.

And handle animal I'd say is more wis, intrinsic knowledge of animals and interacting with them. Druids are animal whispered and they shouldn't be punished because they dumped charisma to represent their abrasiveness to humanoids

[Savannah]

To me perform is more about learning how to play an instrument rather then your force of personality as well as your ability to compose interesting melodies and play complex songs.

A technically correct but wooden performance will never compare to someone not quite as good playing from the heart and reacting to the audience (this reaction and variability why live performances are often better than studio recordings). The ability to make people feel how you want them to feel about your performance is Cha.

And handle animal I'd say is more wis, intrinsic knowledge of animals and interacting with them. Druids are animal whispered and they shouldn't be punished because they dumped charisma to represent their abrasiveness to humanoids

D&D is pretty clear that Charisma is your ability to influence others, including animals, and Wis is your perception and intuition, with no mention of animals. Intuition isn't going to help you as much as force of personality when you need to get the terrified mule across a bridge in the next six seconds.

Also, druids are not inherently abrasive to humans, and having a high Cha does not make you nice. High Cha just means you're sure of yourself and able to persuade others. (My druids tend to be quite high Cha, in fact.) If you want a low Cha druid who's handling animals a lot, remember that you get crazy bonuses to handling your animal companion and buy a Handle Animal boosting tool (I suggest fluffing it as specially prepared treats).

[toapat]

Identification of player classes is still impossible outside of those from Magic of Incarnum (where it explicitly states that you can figure out that class with a Know: Arcana check) I would suspect base classes to be split up between history (for mundanes), religion, nature, and arcane

also, although irrelevant because of its apparent lack of modification, you forgot Knowledge (Psionics) for completeness' sake.

[unbeliever536]

also, although irrelevant because of its apparent lack of modification, you forgot Knowledge (Psionics) for completeness' sake.

If you add knowledge (psionics) to the chart, you should add Psycraft and Autohypnosis as well. I could easily see folding Psycraft into Spellcraft, though, and Autohypnosis could even go into Concentration.

[Savannah]

If you add knowledge (psionics) to the chart, you should add Psycraft and Autohypnosis as well. I could easily see folding Psycraft into Spellcraft, though, and Autohypnosis could even go into Concentration.

If you want to use psionics and this skill system, I support those changes. I don't use psionics, so I didn't even think about them.