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    Ogre in the Playground
     
    SwashbucklerGuy

    Join Date
    Feb 2012
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    Default [PF/3.5] Rogue Revised - Now With Cool Rogue Talents! [P.E.A.C.H]

    Hello, Playground! How are you? It's been quite a while since I last posted in the homebrew forum. But I really wanted to hear your opinion on this one!

    It all started with me trying to build a duelist Rogue NPC for our PF campaign, but I ran into a big problem: Rogues are pretty weak and so is dueling.

    Rogues have an extremely cool class concept, but their mechanics are underwhelming, to put it lightly, and dueling is all but useless without Dervish Dance, which requires the character to wield an weapon Rogues are not proficient with.

    So I decided to try and improve the class, but in a way that keeps its flavor. No full BAB, medium armor proficiency or good Fortitude save progression (I want a Rogue, not a trapfinding Ranger with a different list of class skills). So I gave Rogues the ability to compensate for the lack of those features with much better Rogue Talents and a few extra abilities.



    For those unfamiliar with Pathfinder's Rogue, you can find it here.

    You can also find the googledoc version of this homebrew right here.

    Converting to D&D 3.5:
    If you play D&D 3.5, it's really easy convert this homebrew. Just use the 3.5 skill list and give it 4x as many skill ranks at 1st level. I'd also consider raising its skills to 10 + Int per level too, but that's me.

    Lemmy's

    Revised Rogue for Pathfinder



    I might be wrong here, but I think most players who decide to play a Rogue want a clever character who can get out of trouble with his quick-thinking, agility and charm. That's why this homebrew encourages Rogues to focus on Dex, Int and Cha (and makes sure they can do it without dying whenever they need to make a Fortitude or Will save).

    Here is what I came up with:

    Level Base Attack Bonus Fort Save Ref Save Will Save Special
    1 +0 +0 +2 +0
    Poison Use, Sneak Attack +1d6, Trapfinding
    2 +1 +0 +3 +0
    Evasion, Rogue Talent
    3 +2 +1 +3 +1
    Sneak Attack +2d6, Trap Sense +1
    4 +3 +1 +4 +1
    Rogue Talent, Uncanny Dodge
    5 +3 +1 +4 +1
    Sneak Attack +3d6, Shadow Strike
    6 +4 +2 +5 +2
    Rogue Talent, Trap Sense +2
    7 +5 +2 +5 +2
    Sneak Attack +4d6, Trap Spotter
    8 +6/+1 +2 +6 +2
    Improved Uncanny Dodge, Rogue Talent
    9 +6/+1 +3 +6 +3
    Sneak Attack +5d6, Trap Sense +3
    10 +7/+2 +3 +7 +3
    Advanced Talents, Rogue Talent
    11 +8/+3 +3 +7 +3
    Sneak Attack +6d6, Improved Evasion
    12 +9/+4 +4 +8 +4
    Rogue Talent, Trap Sense +4
    13 +9/+4 +4 +8 +4
    Sneak Attack +7d6
    14 +10/+5 +4 +9 +4
    Rogue Talent
    15 +11/+6/+1 +5 +9 +5
    Sneak Attack +8d6, Trap Sense +5
    16 +12/+7/+2 +5 +10 +5
    Rogue Talent
    17 +12/+7/+2 +5 +10 +5
    Sneak Attack +9d6
    18 +13/+8/+3 +6 +11 +6
    Rogue Talent, Trap Sense +6
    19 +14/+9/+4 +6 +11 +6
    Sneak Attack +10d6
    20 +15/+10/+5 +6 +12 +6
    Master Strike, Rogue Talent


    Alignment: Any

    Hit Die: d8

    Skill Ranks per Level:8 + Int Modifier

    Class Skills: The rogue's class skills are Acrobatics (Dex), Appraise (Int), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Dex), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Heal (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (Dungeoneering) (Int), Knowledge (Engineering) (Int), Knowledge (Local) (Int), Linguistics (Int), Perception (Wis), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Stealth (Dex), Swim (Str), Use Magic Device (Cha) and two other skills of the Rogue's choice, selected at 1st level.

    Spoiler
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    Being able to choose 2 extra class skills of their choice makes Rogues even better skill-monkeys. This makes them more varied and versatile, and allows players to better fit the character in different scenarios/campaigns.


    Weapon and Armor Proficiency:Rogues are proficient with all simple weapons, plus the hand crossbow, rapier, sap, shortbow, short sword, sword cane, switchblade knife, longsword, bladeboot, and whips. They are proficient with light armor and bucklers (but not shields).
    Spoiler
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    Whips are cool and very fitting for Rogues. Proficiency with bucklers is probably enough to give Rogues a decent AC without making them feel like Rangers. I added the proficiency with longswords just because of Moriah, from the old D&D arcade game made by Capcom. Ninjas should also be given proficiency with whips and bucklers as they too struggle to keep a decent AC and could use an extra weapon proficiency.


    Sneak Attack: If a rogue can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack, she can strike a vital spot for extra damage.

    The Rogue's attack deals extra damage anytime her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and increases by 1d6 every two Rogue levels thereafter. Should the Rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied. Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet.

    With a weapon that deals nonlethal damage (like a sap, whip, or an unarmed strike), a Rogue can make a Sneak Attack that deals nonlethal damage instead of lethal damage. She cannot use a weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage in a Sneak Attack, not even with the usual –4 penalty.

    The Rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A Rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment.

    Poison Use (Ex): At 1st level, a Rogue is trained in the use of poison and cannot accidentally poison herself when applying poison to a weapon.

    Stylish Scoundrel - Rogue Styles: At 1st level, the Rogue chooses what combat style fits her the best. There are three possible choices. These styles define what weapons will be affected the Rogue’s Canny Combat class feature.

    Canny Combat (Ex): Starting at 1st level, the Rogue adds a +1 bonus to her attack rolls. This bonus is increased by +1 at 5th level and every 5 levels thereafter. What attacks are affected by this class feature depend on the Rogue’s choice of Rogue style. At 10th level, this bonus affects all her attacks.
    Spoiler
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    Now Rogues can actually hit stuff!


    Stylish Scoundrel

    At 1st level, the Rogue chooses what combat style fits her the best. There are three possible choices. These styles define what weapons will be affected the Rogue’s Canny Combat class feature.

    Swift: This style is the ideal choice for Rogues who wish to focus on swiftness and grace.
    • Canny Combat (Swift): The Rogue benefits from her Canny Combat class feature whenever she attacks with a melee weapon affected by Weapon Finesse.
    • Weapon Finesse: Swift Rogues get Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat at 1st level. If she already has Weapon Finesse, she instead gets a different feat for which she qualifies.
    • Underhanded: While using, the Rogue can choose to apply her Dexterity modifier (up to her Rogue level) instead of her Strength modifier to damage rolls made with melee weapon. This damage is not increased for two-handed weapons, nor is it reduced for off-hand weapons. At 10th level, the Rogue's Dex bonus to damage is no longer limited to her Rogue level.

    Brute: This style is the perfect for Rogues who value raw strength and heavy-hitting weapons.
    • Canny Combat (Brute): The Rogue benefits from her Canny Combat class feature whenever she attacks with a melee weapon, as long as she’s not using Weapon Finesse or any other ability that replaces her Strength modifier to attack rolls.
    • Power Attack: Brute Rogues get Power Attack as a bonus feat at 1st level. If she already has Power Attack, she instead gets a different feat for which she qualifies.
    • Heavy Strikes: The Rogue can choose to use her Rogue level instead of her BAB when calculating Power Attack bonuses and penalties.

    Sniper: This style is the best pick for Rogues who prefer to attack from afar.
    • Canny Combat (Sniper): The Rogue benefits from her Canny Combat class feature whenever she attacks with a ranged weapon.
    • Precise Shot: Sniper Rogues get Precise Shot as a bonus feat at 1st level. If she already has Precise Shot, she instead gets a different feat for which she qualifies.
    • Sniper Eye: A Rogue with this talent can choose to apply her Intelligence modifier (up to her Rogue level) instead of her Strength modifier to damage rolls made with ranged weapon (such as bows and throwing weapons). Additionally, a Rogue with this talent increases the distance she can deal precision damage with ranged weapons by 60ft. At 10th level, the Rogue's Int bonus to damage is no longer limited to her Rogue level.

    Trapfinding (Ex): A Rogue adds 1/2 her level to Perception skill checks made to locate traps and to all Disable Device skill checks (minimum +1). A Rogue can use Disable Device to disarm magic traps.
    Spoiler
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    No changes here. Except that this ability should be given to 2nd level Ninjas as well, since Rogues got Poison Use.


    Evasion (Ex): At 2nd level and higher, a Rogue can avoid even magical and unusual attacks with great agility. If she makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, she instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if the Rogue is wearing light armor or no armor. A helpless Rogue does not gain the benefit of evasion.

    Rogue Talents: As a Rogue gains experience, she learns a number of talents that aid her and confound her foes. Starting at 2nd level, a Rogue gains one Rogue Talent. She gains an additional Rogue talent for every 2 levels of Rogue attained after 2nd level. A Rogue cannot select an individual talent more than once.

    Shadow Strike (Ex): A Rogue gains Shadow Strike as a bonus feat at 5th level. If she already has the Shadow Strike feat, the Rogue instead gains a different feat she qualifies for.
    Spoiler
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    Rogues shouldn't need to pay a feat tax just so they can stab someone in a dark alley.


    Trap Spotter (Ex): Starting at 7th level, whenever the Rogue comes within 10 feet of a trap, she receives an immediate Perception skill check to notice the trap, even if she is not actively looking for traps. This check should be made in secret by the GM.
    Spoiler
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    This makes it harder for other classes to steal one of Rogues' most iconic roles. Honestly... I find the "you must be looking for traps to have a chance of seeing them" rule completely nonsensical and remove it from my games, but here it is.


    Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex): A rogue of 8th level or higher can no longer be flanked.
    This defense denies another rogue the ability to sneak attack the character by flanking her, unless the attacker has at least four more rogue levels than the target does.
    If a character already has uncanny dodge (see above) from another class, the levels from the classes that grant uncanny dodge stack to determine the minimum rogue level required to flank the character.

    Improved Evasion (Ex):This works like Evasion, except that while the Rogue still takes no damage on a successful Reflex saving throw against attacks, she henceforth takes only half damage on a failed save. A helpless Rogue does not gain the benefit of Improved Evasion.
    Spoiler
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    I honestly have no idea of why this is not the case already. Rogues have a huge vacuum of class features at higher levels, and Improved Evasion is a perfect fit for the class' flavor. To make it fair, Ninjas should be given Evasion at 2nd level.


    Master Strike (Ex): Upon reaching 20th level, a rogue becomes incredibly deadly when dealing sneak attack damage. Each time the rogue deals sneak attack damage, she can choose one of the following three effects:
    The target can be...
    • put to sleep for 1d4 hours
    • paralyzed for 2d6 rounds, or
    • slain


    Regardless of the effect chosen, the target receives a Fortitude save to negate the additional effect. The DC of this save is equal to 10 + 1/2 the rogue's level + the rogue's Intelligence modifier. Once a creature has been the target of a master strike, regardless of whether or not the save is made, that creature is immune to that rogue's master strike for 24 hours. Creatures that are immune to sneak attack damage are also immune to this ability.

    -------------------------------
    Now... The most important change of them all: Revised Rogue Talents.

    Tired of all those useless Rogue Talents that give you minuscule benefits and are often limited to X times per day?

    Rejoice! Now they are actually useful and give you cool and unique abilities!

    Revised Rogue Talents:

    Spoiler
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    - Acrobatic Master: You add a bonus equal to half your Rogue level to all Acrobatic checks. You can perform high-risk acrobatics so easily that you can even do it while taunting and distracting your opponents. Thanks to this confidence, you add your Charisma modifier on to your AC and CMD against attacks of opportunity provoked by moving through a threatened squares, as well as to all Acrobatics checks made to move without provoking attacks of opportunity and the DC of these checks is not increased for moving at full speed. Additionally, you can replace your Escape Artist bonus with your Acrobatics bonus.

    - Assault Leader: Adds a +1 bonus to attack rolls made against opponents the Rogue is flanking. This bonus is increased by +1 at Rogue level 5 and every 5 levels thereafter (to a maximum of +5 at 20th level). This bonus also applies to all attacks of opportunity you get to make by virtue of having the Opportunist talent, even if the target of your attack of opportunity is not flanked.

    - Black Market Connections: Rogues can use their connections with shady suppliers to obtain items that are not easily acquired without having the right contacts. As a result, she may carry unspecified equipment worth up to 100 gp per Rogue level. This can be any kind of gear that can reasonably fit into a backpack, including potions and scrolls (but not any other sort of magic item). As a move action, the Rogue may dig through her pockets to retrieve an item she specifies at that time, deducting its value from the allocated amount of cost. This item cannot weigh more than 10 pounds. When the total remaining cost reaches 0, the Rogue can retrieve no more items until she refills her deep pockets by spending a few hours and an amount of gold to bring her total up to 100 gp per class level.

    - Befuddling Strike: Whenever you confirm a critical hit against an enemy, you can immediately make a Feint combat maneuver as a free action. You add a bonus to your feint check equal to the enhancement bonus to attack rolls of the weapon used to score the critical hit. In addition, you add your Int bonus to attack rolls made to confirm critical hits.

    - Canny Observer: You add half your Rogue level on all Knowledge checks made to identify a creature's special abilities and weaknesses, and you can make such skill checks even if untrained in the appropriate Knowledge skill. You also add your Int bonus to all Perception checks.

    - Charmer (Sp): Your words are so convincing, you can affect intelligent creatures as if you had enchanted them. If you talk to a target for 1min, you can cast an effect identical to the Charm Monster spell on them. This is a language dependent mind-affecting effect. The target can make a will save to negate this effect (DC = 10 + 1/2 your ranks in Diplomacy + Cha modifier). Whether or not the save is successful, you cannot target that same creature again with this ability for the next 24h. Your caster level for this ability is equal to your ranks in Diplomacy. (Prerequisite: Rogue level 10)

    - Coax Information: A Rogue with this talent can replace her Sense Motive bonus with either her Bluff or Intimidate bonus. Additionally, whenever the Rogue deals Sneak Attack damage or confirms a critical hit against an opponent, she can immediately use a free action to use the Intimidate skill to demoralize that opponent.

    - Defensive Roll: When a Rogue with this talent is targeted by a melee or ranged attack, she can spend an immediate action to make an Acrobatics check. Shen can use the result as her AC or touch AC against that attack, but she must be aware of the attack and not flat-footed. If the Rogue also has the Acrobatic Master Rogue Talent, she also adds her Cha bonus to this Acrobatics check. If the Rogue has the Redirect Attack talent, she can use it whenever she successfully uses Defensive Roll to avoid an attack.

    - Deft Palm: A Rogue with this talent can use a swift action to make either a Sleight of Hand check resisted by her target's Perception check or a Bluff check resisted by her target's Sense Motive check (you choose which one each time you use this ability). If the Rogue is successful, she gains a +1 bonus to all attacks made against that target until the the start of the Rogue's next turn. This bonus increases by +1 at 5th level and every 5 levels thereafter (To a maximum of +5 at 20th level). However, when using this ability, the Rogue’s Sneak Attack damage is reduced to 1d6 for every 3 Rogue levels.

    - Distracting Attack: Opponents to whom you deal precision damage suffer a -1 penalty to all Concentration checks, skill checks and to all attack rolls made against you. This penalty increases by -1 for every 5 Rogue levels you possess. These penalties last for a number of rounds equal to your Charisma modifier (Minimum 1). (Prerequisite: Cha 13).

    - Esoteric Scholar: You add Spellcraft and one Knowledge skill of your choice to your list of class skills. Additionally, you can cast Read Magic as an spell-like ability at will. Your caster level for this ability is equal to your Rogue level.

    - False Friend: You can use your Bluff bonus instead of your Disguise bonus. At 10th level, when an enemy casts a spell or uses a spell-like ability that would affect all of its allies in a given area of effect, if you successfully identify the spell (or spell-like ability) you can make a Bluff check resisted by the caster’s Sense Motive check. If you’re successful, the spell affects you as if you were one of the caster’s allies. Whether or not you succeed, you can't use this ability on the same target again for the next 24 hours.

    - Fast Picks: You can take 10 on Disable Device checks even when distracted or endangered, and the necessary time required for such checks is reduced by 1 action category (full-round -> standard -> move -> swift -> free). Disable Device checks made to pick locks or disarm traps have their time reduced by 2 categories instead. Additionally, if you also have the Skill Mastery talent, you can always take 20 on Disable Device checks, even when it would not be possible and without increasing the necessary time for said skill checks.

    - Finesse Rogue: Get Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat. If you already have the Weapon Finesse feat, you instead get another feat you qualify for. (Now you can grab Weapon Finesse at 1st level and not feel like you wasted a feat one level later)

    - Force of Personality: You gain Force of Personality as a bonus feat. (Force of Personality is a 3.5 feat that allows characters to add their Cha modifier instead of Wisdom to Will saves).

    - Getaway Artist: You can make a Reflex save instead of a Fortitude or Will save whenever one of those would be necessary to resist a spell, spell-like ability or any other supernatural effect that would cause you to be entangled, staggered, paralyzed or petrified. If a Rogue with Improved Evasion uses this talent to make a Reflex saving throw against an effect that has a reduced effect on a successful save, she instead avoids the effect entirely.(Prerequisite: Rogue level 10).

    - Hard to Fool: The Rogue get a +1 bonus to all saves made to resist illusions and emotion effects, as well as effects that would cause her to be confused or dazed. This bonus increases by +1 at 6th level and every 3 Rogue levels thereafter.

    - Hold Breath: You can hold your breath for a number of minutes equal to your Con score. Additionally, you a get +1 bonus to all saving throws made to resist effects that cause suffocation. This bonus increases by +1 at 6th level and every 3 levels thereafter. At 10th level, you can hold your breath for a number of minutes equal to 10x your Con score.

    - Honeyed Words: When you succeed on a Diplomacy check to improve a creature's attitude towards you or your allies, you can improve its attitude by 2 steps instead of one and he DC to resist any language-based mind-affecting effect caused by you increases by +2. Additionally, you can retry failed Diplomacy checks after 12h instead of the usual 24h.

    - Iron Guts: The Rogues gets a +1 bonus to all saving throws made to resist poison and diseases, as well as all supernatural effects that would cause her to be poisoned, diseased, sickened or nauseated. This bonus increases by +1 at Rogue level 6 and every 3 levels thereafter. At 8th level, the Rogue becomes immune to all diseases, including supernatural ones. At 16th level, she also becomes immune to poison.

    - Ledge Walker: This ability allows a Rogue to move along narrow or slippery surfaces at full speed using the Acrobatics skill without penalty. In addition, a Rogue with this talent is not flat-footed when using Acrobatics to move through difficult terrain. Finally, when the Rogue suffers fall damage, this damage is reduced by 1d6 for every 2 Rogue levels.

    - Minor Magic: Pick 2 cantrips from the Wizard spell list. You can cast both of them as spell-like abilities at will. Your CL for this ability is equal to your Rogue level.The save DC for these cantrips is based on either Int or Cha, whatever is higher (Prerequisite: Int 10 or Cha 10). (Because 3 cantrips a day is just pathetic.)

    - Major Magic: Pick one 1st-level spell from the Wizard spell list. You can cast that spell as a spell-like ability 3 times per day plus 1 additional time for every 5 Rogue levels. Your caster level for this ability is equal to your Rogue level.The save DC for the spell is based on either Int or Cha, whatever is higher. (Prerequisite: Int 11 or Cha 11)

    - Nimble Climber: You get a Climb speed equal to half your base movement speed (Minimum 5ft). At 6th level, your Climb speed becomes equal to your full base speed. If you already have a Climb speed, it increases by these amounts.

    - Opportunist: When an enemy you threaten provokes an attack of opportunity from one of your allies, it also provokes an attack of opportunity from you, even if the situation or an ability would normally deny you the attack of opportunity. If you have the Assault Leader talent, you can apply the bonus granted by it to attacks of opportunity granted by this ability.(Prerequisite: Rogue level 6).

    - Peerless Maneuver: Choose one Combat Maneuver. You use your Rogue level instead of your BAB to calculate your CMB and CMD for that maneuver. Additionally, you get the appropriate Improved <Combat Maneuver> feat at Rogue level 4. When you reach level 8, you get the Greater version of this feat. If you already have it, you instead get a combat feat you qualify for. This talent can be selected a second time at 8th level and a third time at 16th level. Each time it applies to a difference combat maneuver.

    - Powerful Sneak: Treat all 1s and 2s rolled on Sneak Attack damage dice as if they were 3s. (Prerequisite: Rogue level 10)

    - Redirect Attack: Once per round, when an enemy misses an attack against the Rogue, the Rogue can choose to direct that attack at a different creature. The target creature must be in the area threatened by the attacking enemy. Alternatively, the Rogue can choose to instead make an attack of opportunity against the attacking enemy. If the Rogue has the Defensive Roll talent, she can use this ability whenever she successfully uses that talent to avoid an attack, in which case, it doesn’t count against the Rogue’s limit of 1 use of Redirect Attack per round.

    - Resiliency: You get a +1 bonus on all saves made to resist negative energy and death effects. This bonus increases by +1 at 6th level and every 3 Rogue levels thereafter. Additionally, the number of negative hit points you can reach before dying increases by an amount equal to your Rogue level.

    - Rogue Crawl: You take no penalties for squeezing into tight spaces and you can move at half your base movement speed and even make 5ft-steps while prone. Finally, you can stand up from a prone position as a swift action or as a move action. This movement still provokes an attack of opportunity, unless you use a move action to stand up.

    - Shadow Blend: When you're in an area of darkness or dim-light, all attacks made against you have a 50% miss chance instead of 20%. This ability does not confer you full concealment. It simply raises the miss chance for being in an area of darkness or dim-light. (Prerequisite: Rogue level 10)

    - Slippery Mind: Make a Reflex save instead of a Will save to resist any spells, spell-like abilities or any other supernatural effect that possesses or exercises mind control over you. If a Rogue with Improved Evasion uses this talent to make a Reflex saving throw against an effect that has a reduced effect on a successful save, she instead avoids the effect entirely. (Prerequisite: Rogue level 10)

    - Sniper's Eye: A Rogue with this talent can choose to apply her Intelligence modifier (up to her Rogue level) instead of her Strength modifier to damage rolls made with ranged weapon (such as bows and throwing weapons). Additionally, a Rogue with this talent increases the distance she can deal precision damage with ranged weapons by 60ft. At 10th level, the Rogue's Int bonus to damage is no longer limited to her Rogue level.

    - Skill Mastery: Whenever you make an skill check for a skill in which you have at least 1 rank you can roll twice and take the better result. Additionally, you can always Take 10 on any skill in which you have at least 10 ranks, even if you're distracted or in peril. At 20th level, whenever you make an skill check for a skill in which you have at least 1 rank you can roll three times and take the best result. (Prerequisite: Rogue level 10).

    - Strong Impression: Add a bonus equal to your Charisma modifier to Initiative checks. At 9th level, you can roll for Initiative twice and take the better result. At 18th level, you can roll for Initiative three times and take the best result (Prerequisite: Rogue level 6)

    - Strong Stroke: You get a Swim speed equal to half your base movement speed (Minimum 5ft). At 6th level, your Swim speed becomes equal to your full base speed. If you already have a Swim speed, it increases by these amounts.

    - Surprise Attack: The first successful Sneak Attack you make each round against a creature who is surprised, helpless, unconscious or unaware of your presence automatically deals maximum damage. (This effect applies to only one Sneak Attack per target per round). Additionally, during a surprise round, all enemies are considered flat-footed to you, even if they have already acted. (Now, when you sneak on the town guard and slice his throat, he dies).

    - Survivalist: You add Handle Animal and Survival to your list of class skills. Additionally, you add a bonus equal to half your Rogue level to all Survival skills made to follow tracks and you can follow tracks while moving at full speed.

    - Swift Poisoning: The Rogue can use a swift action instead of a standard or move action to apply poison to an weapon she is currently holding.

    - Underhanded: A Rogue with this talent using the Weapon Finesse feat can choose to apply her Dexterity modifier (up to her Rogue level) instead of her Strength modifier to damage rolls made with melee weapon. This damage is not increased for two-handed weapons, nor is it reduced for off-hand weapons. At 10th level, the Rogue's Dexs bonus to damage is no longer limited to her Rogue level. (Prerequisite: Weapon Finesse).

    - Unwitting Ally: You can trick a creature in a 60ft radius to act and/or position itself in a way that benefits you while distracting its own allies. As a swift action, you can make a Bluff check opposed by your target's Sense Motive check. If you are successful, your target act as an ally for the purpose of providing flanking and you don’t provoke attacks of opportunity for moving through its threatened area. This effect lasts for a number of rounds equal to your Cha modifier (minimum 1).(Prerequisite: Rogue level 6)



    **Rogue Talents that require Rogue level 10 should be considered Advanced Talents**

    I decided to keep the original names so this homebrew can be used with character building software, such as HeroLab.

    Here is a sample build using these rules:

    Sandra Silverline (Sample Rogue)
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    Sandra Silverline
    Female Half-Elf Rogue 10
    CG Medium Humanoid (elf, human)
    Init +5; Senses low-light vision; Perception +15
    --------------------
    Defense
    --------------------
    AC 22, touch 14, flat-footed 18 (+6 armor, +2 shield, +4 Dex)
    hp 78 (10d8+30)
    Fort +9, Ref +15 (+3 bonus vs. traps), Will +10; +2 vs. enchantments, +3 against poison and diseases
    Defensive Abilities improved evasion, improved uncanny dodge (lv >=14), trap sense; Immune magic sleep, disease; Resist elven immunities
    --------------------
    Offense
    --------------------
    Speed 30 ft.
    Melee +3 Silversheen Rapier +3 Silversheen Rapier +18/+13 (1d6+6/18-20/x2) or
    . . +1 Silversheen Rapier +16/+11 (1d6+4/18-20/x2)
    Ranged +1 Adaptive Composite shortbow (Str +1) +16/+11 (1d6+2/x3)
    Special Attacks Sneak Attack +5d6, (only +2d6 when using Deft Palm)
    Spell-Like Abilities Minor Magic (Detect Magic, Prestidigitation) (at will)
    --------------------
    Statistics
    --------------------
    Str 12, Dex 20, Con 14, Int 16, Wis 10, Cha 16
    Base Atk +7; CMB +8; CMD 22
    Feats Combat Reflexes (6 AoO/round), Extra Rogue Talent (Rogue), Extra Rogue Talent (Rogue), Force of Personality, Shadow Strike, Skill Focus (Acrobatics), Weapon Finesse
    Traits Indomitable Faith, Resilient
    Skills Acrobatics +24, Bluff +16, Diplomacy +16, Disable Device +23, Escape Artist +18, Intimidate +16, Perception +15 (+20 to locate traps), Sense Motive +13, Sleight of Hand +18 (+22 to conceal a weapon), Stealth +18, Use Magic Device +16; Racial Modifiers +2 Perception
    Languages Celestial, Common, Draconic, Elven, Sylvan
    SQ elf blood, trapfinding +5
    Other Gear +2 Chain shirt, +1 Buckler, +1 Adaptive Composite shortbow (Str +0), +1 Silversheen Rapier, +3 Silversheen Rapier, Belt of physical might (Dex & Con +2), Cloak of resistance +3, Headband of mental prowess (Int & Cha +2) (Use Mag, Ring of protection +1, 580 GP
    --------------------
    Special Abilities
    --------------------
    Black Market Connections (Ex) Find useful items in your backpack. (up to 1000gp).
    Combat Reflexes (6 AoO/round) Can make extra attacks of opportunity/rd, and even when flat-footed.
    Deft Palm (Ex) As a swift action, make a Sleight of Hand check resisted by your target's Perception check. If successful get a +2 bonus to all attack rolls made against your target until the beginning of your next turn.
    Elf Blood You are counted as both elven and human for any effect relating to race.
    Elven Immunities +2 save bonus vs Enchantments.
    Elven Immunities - Sleep You are immune to magic sleep effects.
    Improved Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead. If you fail the Reflex save, you take only half-damage.
    Improved Uncanny Dodge (Lv >=14) (Ex) Retain DEX bonus to AC when flat-footed. You cannot be flanked unless the attacker is Level 14+.
    Iron Guts (Ex) +3 on all saves vs poison and disease. Immunity to all diseases.
    Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in low light, distinguishing color and detail.
    Minor Magic (Detect Magic, Prestidigitation) (at will) (Sp) Gain the chosen cantrips as spell-like abilities.
    Shadow Strike You can deal precision damage against opponents with some concealment.
    Skill Mastery You can roll twice and take the better result whenever you make a skill check for a skill in which you assigned at least 1 skill rank.
    Slippery Mind (Ex) Make a Reflex save instead of a Will save to resist possession and mind control.
    Sneak Attack +5d6 damage if your target is flat-footed.
    Trap Sense +3 (Ex) +3 bonus on reflex saves and AC against traps.
    Trapfinding +5 Gain a bonus to find or disable traps, including magical ones. Automatically get a Perception check to detect traps on a 10ft radius around, even if you're not searching for traps.
    Underhanded (Ex) Add your Int modifier to damage rolls when using Weapon Finesse.

    Not an unstoppable war machine, but certainly much more effective than a normal Rogue.

    So, my fellow Playgrounders. What are your thoughts?

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    03/21/2014:
    - Rogues/Ninjas get Shadow Strike as a bonus feat at 5th level
    - Trap Spotter delayed to 7th level.

    Rogue Talents:

    Assault Leader Now synergizes with Opportunist. Now, when you make an AoO granted by the Opportunist talent, you can apply the bonus gained from Assault Leader to your attack roll.
    Befuddling Strike now allows the Rogue to add her Int bonus to attack rolls made to confirm critical hits, and her free Feint now gets a bonus equal to the Rogue's weapon's enhancement bonus to attack rolls (so, something from +0 to +5).
    Hard to Fool now also applies against emotion effects and effect that would cause the Rogue to be confused or dazed.
    Honeyed Words have the added benefit or raising the DC of language-dependent mind-affecting effects by +2. This increases the synergy between this talent and Charmer.
    Iron Guts gives immunity to diseases at 10th level and immunity to poison at 20th. I know other classes get these immunities much earlier, but I'm okay with that.
    Surprise Attack now applies to any opponent who is surprised, unconscious, helpless or unaware of your presence. It only applies once per round per opponent, though. This makes it more likely to come up in actual play.

    04/02/2014:

    Canny Observer allows Rogues to add their Int bonus to Perception checks.
    Coax Information allows Rogues to immediately make a Intimidate check as a free action to demoralize opponents who suffered Sneak Attack damage or a critical hit from the Rogue.
    Getaway Artist and Slippery Mind protect the Rogue from suffering partial effects on a successful save if the Rogue also has Improved Evasion.
    Underhanded's Int bonus to damage is no longer reduced for off-hand attacks. (Basically, Rogues get free Double Slice when using this talent. TWF takes way too many feats already!)

    04/30/2014:
    Iron Guts grants immunity to diseases and poison slightly earlier (9th and 18th level, respectively).

    06/25/2014
    Added Defensive Roll to the list of revised Rogue talents.
    Changed Iron Guts so that the immunities to Disease and Poison come a little earlier.

    06/29/2014
    Iron Guts now also applies against effects that would cause the Rogue to be nauseated.
    Minor Magic and Major Magic are based on Int or Cha, whichever is higher.
    Removed the level prerequisite for Fast Picks.

    12/17/2014
    Canny Combat added to the Rogues class features. Now you can use Rogue Talents to excel instead of simply compensating for their lack of accuracy.
    Combat Swipe and Redirect Attack added to the list of Revised Rogue Talents.
    Peerless Maneuver can now be taken a second time at 8th level and a third time at 16th.

    07/15//2015
    Added Rogue Style class feature at 1st level, this way it’s quicker and less taxing to turn your character into the Rogue you want her to be.
    Canny Combat is no longer an universal bonus. It’s now dependant on which Rogue Style you take.
    Underhanded now adds your Dex modifier to damage, rather than your Int modifier. It’s still limited to your Rogue level, however.
    Last edited by Lemmy; 2015-07-15 at 05:49 PM. Reason: Update
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    Default Re: [PF] Revised Rogue (P.E.A.C.H)

    Id leave sneak attack where it stands to be honest. ive never thought dealing a few D6s of extra damage is super overpowered in terms of 'too much damage' especially considering that HP damage is actually the worse way to go about negating foes. ( see stinking cloud or black tentacles)



    Id go through the Ninja Special abilties and allow Rogues access to teh (Ex) ones but not vice versa ( but thats just what I did with my own Rogue)

    Rogues are going to want to focus on DEX then CON then whatever they feel like. so at best your underhanded special ability is going to net them a +2 precision damage. Id make it a set number +int mod like 2+int mod

    change the name of camoflouge to somethng to mean about hiding in shadows. so people just looking at the name understand what it is

    bump powerful sneak up to maybe 8th level as now the rogue average damage just went up a whole point.

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    Default Re: [PF] Revised Rogue (P.E.A.C.H)

    Quote Originally Posted by ngilop View Post
    Id leave sneak attack where it stands to be honest. ive never thought dealing a few D6s of extra damage is super overpowered in terms of 'too much damage' especially considering that HP damage is actually the worse way to go about negating foes. ( see stinking cloud or black tentacles)
    I don't think extra damage is particularly powerful either, actually. But with Underhanded, Deft Palm and Assault Leader, it might be a bit too much. But I suppose there's no need to nerf it. I'll remove the SA reduction and just add a note for GMs who feel it might be too much.


    Quote Originally Posted by ngilop View Post
    Id go through the Ninja Special abilties and allow Rogues access to teh (Ex) ones but not vice versa ( but thats just what I did with my own Rogue)
    Ninjas are a quite underpowered too, actually. They're better than Rogues, of course, but that is not exactly something to write home about. I'd rather leave it up for each GM to decide if they think it'd be too much.

    Quote Originally Posted by ngilop View Post
    Rogues are going to want to focus on DEX then CON then whatever they feel like. so at best your underhanded special ability is going to net them a +2 precision damage. Id make it a set number +int mod like 2+int mod
    Now they have more reason to invest in Int, and buying a Belt of Dex/Con and a Headband of Int/Cha is cheaper than buying a Belt of Str/Dex/Con and a headband of Cha, so I think Underhanded is a good enough damage boost as it is. Especially considering some of these Rogue Talents boost Rogues' accuracy as well. They can afford to have lower Con, since the increased Int means Rogues can use the favored skill bonus on extra HP. And Talents such as Getaway Artist, Iron Guts and Slippery Mind compensate for their poor saves.

    Quote Originally Posted by ngilop View Post
    change the name of camoflouge to somethng to mean about hiding in shadows. so people just looking at the name understand what it is
    Good idea. I'll see if I there is a Rogue Talent with a more fitting name.

    Quote Originally Posted by ngilop View Post
    bump powerful sneak up to maybe 8th level as now the rogue average damage just went up a whole point.
    Another good idea. Actually, if the SA is not reduced, it might be better turned into an Advanced Talent (Rogue level 10)

    Thanks for the criticism. Feel free to give me more!
    Last edited by Lemmy; 2014-02-20 at 08:41 PM.
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    Default Re: [PF] Rogue Revised (P.E.A.C.H)

    Added a few more Rogue Talents and rewrote a couple of them. Hopefully they're better balanced and their descriptions are clear.
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    Default Re: [PF] Rogue Revised - Now With Cool Rogue Talents! [P.E.A.C.H]

    Bump!
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    Default Re: [PF] Rogue Revised - Now With Cool Rogue Talents! [P.E.A.C.H]

    Hey Lemmy, I finally got around to checking and reading all of your changes here (it can get very hectic at my house sometimes ). All in all, great job. I'm thoroughly impressed. The only things that stuck out at me in a "" sort of way were the following:

    "Deadly Substances": Rogues are masters of poison making, able to create extraordinarily debilitating substances. Starting at 3rd level, once per day, a Rogue can spend 20 minutes to craft a number of poison doses equal to her Int modifier plus half her Rogue level. The effects of this poison can be negated with a successful Fortitude saving throw (DC = 10 + 1/2 Rogue level + Int Modifier). This particular poison is applied through injury and can be applied to weapons as a move action. If unused, this poison becomes inert after 24 hours. The effects of this poison last for 1 round for every 2 Rogue levels unless otherwise specified.
    I feel like this should probably be a rogue talent with poison use as a prerequisite. I love poison myself and would totally love a poison-rogue, but sometimes you want a sort of Han Solo or Duelist sort rather than a poisoner. Otherwise I love the ability. However, my second concern is the poison effects.

    3rd level Rogue: Fatigued.
    7th level Rogue: Diseased
    11th level Rogue: Staggered
    15th level Rogue: Paralyzed
    19th level Rogue: Petrified (Permanent)
    Now don't get me wrong. I understand that poison is a woefully under appreciated mechanic and that there's lots of ways to become immune to it, but these are really powerful and I'd rather things not be required to be immune to it. I've got a number of players in my own games that use poison frequently (because you'd be surprised at the stuff that will biff a saving throw, and honestly tons of enemies just have no practical means of poison immunity).

    The big ones that kind of bother me are the 15th and 19th level ones. I can't help but imagine the rogue poisoning his or her ranged weapons and popping people with a DC 30-ish saving throw each round vs petrification or paralysis. That feels pretty excessive to me. The 7th level one is a bit confusing as well since it diseases the victim (I would presume similar to contagion). That could be cool, but you'd probably want to specify exactly how much of it is disease vs poison (does remove disease, delay poison, neutralize poison, or all of the above work? Does immunity to disease protect you or is considered a poison? Does immunity to poison protect you, or is it a disease?). Those sorts of questions.

    The staggering poison made me a bit nervous as well. With these poisons you can very easily apply a lot of save or suck in a round, and with a DC as good as 10 + 1/2 your level + Int modifier, it's actually pretty likely that the foe is going to fail the save in the first place. So while I look at the staggering poison and say to myself "Well it compares to slow" I feel like it could be much more powerful due to free-DC scaling, ability to apply it over multiple attacks (especially when dealing ranged attacks), and its nonmagical nature (which means it can't be dispelled or countered or cancelled like slow can). However, maybe it's not so bad since it can be affected by remove paralysis. I'll need to think about it. I just can't help but think about the terrible destruction I could wreak upon a group of players with this ability.

    Now to the rogue talents. I like virtually all of these but some confused me a bit.
    Acrobatic Master: You add a bonus equal to half your Rogue level to all Acrobatic checks. You also add your Charisma modifier on Acrobatics checks made to move without provoking attacks of opportunity.
    Why does your Charisma improve your ability to avoid attacks of opportunity? I feel like there's some sort of disconnect here, or just trying to give Charisma some love.

    Black Market Connections: Rogues can use their connections with shady suppliers to obtain items that are not easily acquired without having the right contacts. As a result, she may carry unspecified equipment worth up to 100 gp per Rogue level. This can be any kind of gear that can reasonably fit into a backpack, including potions and scrolls (but not any other sort of magic item). As a move action, the Rogue may dig through her pockets to retrieve an item she specifies at that time, deducting its value from the allocated amount of cost. This item cannot weigh more than 10 pounds. When the total remaining cost reaches 0, the Rogue can retrieve no more items until she refills her deep pockets by spending a few hours and an amount of gold to bring her total up to 100 gp per class level.
    Firstly I want to say I really like this. It's cool and it's flavorful. You may want to reduce the weight of the individual item to something a little more manageable though. This ability can get pretty silly really fast. That's okay in my games (I don't actually mind if a rogue brandish's the kitchen sink suddenly) but it might be a turnoff to others.

    As an example, our hypothetical rogue with merely 100 gp worth of unspecified gear can produce up to 33 mining picks (about 330 lbs.), or half a ton of hemp rope from her pack per rogue level.

    Though I actually think that's pretty hilarious and there are sillier things in the game and I enjoy the mental image of the party staring at the rogue and going "Where does she keep all this stuff!?". Perhaps at least consider mentioning that the rogue packs her gear in seemingly impossibly efficient fashion to reduce her burdens.

    Camouflage: When you're in an area of darkness or dim-light, all attacks made against you have a 50% miss chance instead of 20%.
    Could be confused for the Ranger ability of the same name. I like the ability though. Perhaps something like "improved concealment" or "shadow stalker" or "veil of shadows".

    Charmer: Your words are so convincing, you can affect intelligent creatures as if you had enchanted them. If you talk to a target for 1min, you can cast an effect identical to the Charm Person spell on them. This is a language dependent effect. The target can make a will save to negate this effect (DC = 10 + 1/2 your ranks in Diplomacy + Cha modifier). Whether or not the save is successful, you cannot target that same creature again with this ability for the next 24h. (Prerequisite: Rogue level 10)
    This should probably be a mind-affecting effect as well as language-based. It also isn't clear as to what sort of ability it is (Extraordinary, Supernatural, or Spell-like). I'd lean towards making it a spell-like ability since there's no way to reasonably break the effect otherwise (supernatural and extraordinary abilities cannot be dispelled). Though I would say that upgrading it to charm monster (so it's not humanoid-only) would be reasonable to do. I don't see why a dashing rogue couldn't attempt to silver-tongue a mind-flayer or dragon for example.

    Hard to Fool: The Rogue get a +1 bonus to all saves made to resist illusion effects. This bonus increases by +1 at 6th level and every 3 Rogue levels thereafter.
    No complaints but I'd totally love to suggest "Skeptical" as an alternate idea for naming this one.

    Minor Magic: Pick 2 cantrips from the wizard spell list. You can cast both of them at will as an SLA. Your CL for this ability is equal to your Rogue level. The save DC for these cantrips is Int based. (Prerequisite: Int 10). (Because 3 cantrips a day is just pathetic.)

    Major Magic: Pick 1 1st-level spell from the Wizard spell list. You can cast it as a spell-like ability 3 times per day plus 1 additional time for every 5 Rogue levels. Your caster level for this ability is equal to your Rogue level. The save DC for the spell is Int based. (Prerequisite: Int 11).
    I just want to say THANK YOU.

    Gonna toss you a PM on Paizo with an alternate rogue I threw together. I think I'd like to reference your expanded talent pool with it.

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    Default Re: [PF] Rogue Revised - Now With Cool Rogue Talents! [P.E.A.C.H]

    Not all of us possess PF materials, you know.

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    Default Re: [PF] Rogue Revised - Now With Cool Rogue Talents! [P.E.A.C.H]

    Quote Originally Posted by nonsi View Post
    Not all of us possess PF materials, you know.
    I'm honestly confused by this comment. Is this a complaint because it's not a 3.5 homebrew? Because not everyone has 3.5 material either... And this is a Pathfinder homebrew, after all.
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    Default Re: [PF] Rogue Revised - Now With Cool Rogue Talents! [P.E.A.C.H]

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemmy View Post
    I'm honestly confused by this comment. Is this a complaint because it's not a 3.5 homebrew? Because not everyone has 3.5 material either... And this is a Pathfinder homebrew, after all.
    All I'm saying is that most of the work done here is 3.5e associated, so you might wanna reference the PF Rogue via link, so that all readers will have a clear picture of what it is that you're changing.


    EDIT: Same goes for features with tweaked names, such as Trapspotter.

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    Default Re: [PF] Rogue Revised - Now With Cool Rogue Talents! [P.E.A.C.H]

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashiel View Post
    Poison Stuff
    You are probably right. While having a SoL effect is not exactly unique at higher levels, forcing multiple saves per round would be overpowered. Making it take effect only once per round might be okay (so the enemy only has to make 1, no matter how many attacks the Rogue lands), an by "okay" I mean "no different than any other SoD spell".

    You're also right about the Diseased condition. I'll revise the poison ability.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashiel View Post
    Acrobatic Master: Why does your Charisma improve your ability to avoid attacks of opportunity? I feel like there's some sort of disconnect here, or just trying to give Charisma some love.
    The idea behind adding Cha to avoid AoO is that of a Rogue taunting and distracting enemies to get in their nerves, lowering their focus and consequentelly, accuracy. (like Spider-Man and Deadpool). I should make it clearer, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashiel View Post
    Black Market ConnectionsFirstly I want to say I really like this. It's cool and it's flavorful. You may want to reduce the weight of the individual item to something a little more manageable though. This ability can get pretty silly really fast. That's okay in my games (I don't actually mind if a rogue brandish's the kitchen sink suddenly) but it might be a turnoff to others.

    As an example, our hypothetical rogue with merely 100 gp worth of unspecified gear can produce up to 33 mining picks (about 330 lbs.), or half a ton of hemp rope from her pack per rogue level.

    Though I actually think that's pretty hilarious and there are sillier things in the game and I enjoy the mental image of the party staring at the rogue and going "Where does she keep all this stuff!?". Perhaps at least consider mentioning that the rogue packs her gear in seemingly impossibly efficient fashion to reduce her burdens.
    Well, kinda...:

    Black Market ConnectionsThis can be any kind of gear that can reasonably fit into a backpack, including potions and scrolls (but not any other sort of magic item). As a move action, the Rogue may dig through her pockets to retrieve an item she specifies at that time, deducting its value from the allocated amount of cost. This item cannot weigh more than 10 pounds. When the total remaining cost reaches 0, the Rogue can retrieve no more items until she refills her deep pockets by spending a few hours and an amount of gold to bring her total up to 100 gp per class level.

    So unless our GM thinks you can carry half a ton of hemp rope in your backpack, that is not an issue. Although I suppose multiple uses of the ability could do that, but that's okay with me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashiel View Post
    Cammouflage: Could be confused for the Ranger ability of the same name. I like the ability though. Perhaps something like "improved concealment" or "shadow stalker" or "veil of shadows".
    Yeah... I'm aware it's not the best-fitting name. I was trying to keep the original Rogue Talent names to make easier for this homebrew to be used with character build software, such as HeroLab.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashiel View Post
    Charmer: This should probably be a mind-affecting effect as well as language-based. It also isn't clear as to what sort of ability it is (Extraordinary, Supernatural, or Spell-like). I'd lean towards making it a spell-like ability since there's no way to reasonably break the effect otherwise (supernatural and extraordinary abilities cannot be dispelled). Though I would say that upgrading it to charm monster (so it's not humanoid-only) would be reasonable to do. I don't see why a dashing rogue couldn't attempt to silver-tongue a mind-flayer or dragon for example.
    What are you talking about? It's a language-based mind-affecting effect!
    *reads original post*
    WTF???!!! it isn't.
    I actually forgot to add that line. Thanks for pointing that out. I will fix that!
    I had originally imagined this as an (Ex) ability. It does take 1min to use, after all, so it can't be used in combat and I think skills should be able to do fantastic stuff when you have 10+ ranks, since that's twice as many ranks as even the most competent people on earth have. But it's probably best to make it an SLA to avoid future issues.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashiel View Post
    Hard to Fool: No complaints but I'd totally love to suggest "Skeptical" as an alternate idea for naming this one.
    That's just because of me trying to keep the original names.
    BTW, did you know there are two Rogue talents named Hard to Fool? And neither of them is worth a damn... lol

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashiel View Post
    Minor Magic & Major Magic: I just want to say THANK YOU.
    Yeah, I never understood why Paizo made this Rogue Talent so terribly useless! Requiring 1 Rogue Talent for limited uses of a single cantrip. WTF? Honestly, how can any designer look at Rogue Talents like this (and many others, actually) and think they are worth a class feature?

    Anyway, thanks for the criticism. It's much appreciated.
    Last edited by Lemmy; 2014-03-05 at 02:11 PM.
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    Default Re: [PF] Rogue Revised - Now With Cool Rogue Talents! [P.E.A.C.H]

    Quote Originally Posted by nonsi View Post
    All I'm saying is that most of the work done here is 3.5e associated, so you might wanna reference the PF Rogue via link, so that all readers will have a clear picture of what it is that you're changing.
    Indeed. But there are quite a few PF homebrews around here too. I don't see the problem with posting non-3.5 stuff. This particular homebrew is actually pretty easy to adapt to 3.5. Just use the 3.5 skills and give the character 1 Rogue Talent every even-numbered level.

    You do have a point about linking to the PFSRD Rogue, though.

    I currently play PF almost exclusively, nowadays, but I still use lots of 3.5 material (no reason to let good books go to waste, after all) :)
    Last edited by Lemmy; 2013-09-24 at 01:33 PM.
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    Default Re: [PF] Rogue Revised - Now With Cool Rogue Talents! [P.E.A.C.H]

    I'd also mesh the PF Scout's talents into the list (whatever the Rogue doesn't get already from class features).
    I'd also add HiPS.

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    Default Re: [PF] Rogue Revised - Now With Cool Rogue Talents! [P.E.A.C.H]

    Quote Originally Posted by nonsi View Post
    I'd also mesh the PF Scout's talents into the list (whatever the Rogue doesn't get already from class features).
    You mean turn the Scout archetype's abilities into Rogue Talents? Hmmm... that's not a bad idea...

    Quote Originally Posted by nonsi View Post
    I'd also add HiPS.
    I thought about that. But Rogues already get a Rogue Talent that gives them HiPS.
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    Default Re: [PF] Rogue Revised - Now With Cool Rogue Talents! [P.E.A.C.H]

    Have you thought about how some of these might interact with the ninja's class abilities? Combining surprise attack with the capstone "complete undetectability" at 20th level, for example?

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    Default Re: [PF] Rogue Revised - Now With Cool Rogue Talents! [P.E.A.C.H]

    Quote Originally Posted by Dlkpi View Post
    Have you thought about how some of these might interact with the ninja's class abilities? Combining surprise attack with the capstone "complete undetectability" at 20th level, for example?
    Well... "Complete Undetectability" is a terribly written ability. RAW, you can stand in front of your opponent, clapping and shouting as loud as you can, and it would still not detect you. You can kick it in the chin while singing La Cucaracha and it would still not detect you. Hell, you can set yourself on fire and do all of that and still go undetected.

    So I'll assume GMs will use common sense for that...

    After the 1st hit, your target will be aware of your presence. It might not know where you are, but it knows you're there, just like players fighting invisible creatures. So no more max damage Sneak Attack.

    If your GM allows you to do it multiple times, because RAW you're still undetected, then it doesn't really matter if you have Surprise Attack, as you can Sneak Attack time and time again, so your damage will be absurd anyway and the Ninja is already turning your game into a poorly written Looney Tunes cartoon.
    Last edited by Lemmy; 2013-10-03 at 12:13 PM.
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    Default Re: [PF] Rogue Revised - Now With Cool Rogue Talents! [P.E.A.C.H]

    Revised a few Talents to make them more useful and removed the Deadly Substances ability until I think of a way to make it useful without it being a SoL effect.
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    Default Re: [PF] Rogue Revised - Now With Cool Rogue Talents! [P.E.A.C.H]

    The raw damage of high-level Sneak Attack has always bothered me. I don't like the idea of dealing 33d6+miscellany in a single round. Earlier in development you reduced Sneak Attack - might I suggest an idea called Ambush Attack?

    It's fairly simple: the first successful sneak attack you make against an opponent in an encounter in an ambush attack. The progression changes to +1d6 sneak attack at 1st, 5th, 9th... and +1d6 ambush attack at 3rd, 7th, 11th.... This also opens up interesting opportunities for rogue talents. You can grant bonuses on ambush attacks that would be overpowered as sneak attack abilities.

    EDIT: Additionally, do you mind if I adapt some of your talents for my rogue talents in Rise? They're quite good.
    Last edited by Vadskye; 2014-02-21 at 05:23 PM.

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    Default Re: [PF] Rogue Revised - Now With Cool Rogue Talents! [P.E.A.C.H]

    Sorry for the late answer, forgot to check this homebrew for new replies. :P

    I think the damage output of Sneak Attack is more than compensated by the Rogues low accuracy. On a full BAB character, though, it could be problematic, that's why my version of Deft Palm reduces the number of Sneak Attack damage dice by half when used (but in exchange, effectively gives the Rogue full BAB).

    OTOH, a different talent gives the Rogue the same accuracy bonus against flanked opponents, but that's because I wanted to make Rogues really good at flanking, as that's a classic Rogue tactic and people should know better than let the sneaky guy with a dagger have a shot at their backs. lol.

    The Ambush Attack ability is a nice idea, but after taking a 2nd look at Sneak Attack and listening to the feedback of other players, including some friends of mine, I reached the conclusion that SA is not that powerful...

    About using them in your homebrew... Sure! Go ahead! The reason I posted it here in the first place was so that more people can enjoy it if they want to. Just give me a shout-out so I can brag about my "name" appearing on a well-written .pdf. haha.
    Last edited by Lemmy; 2014-03-18 at 10:52 AM.
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  19. - Top - End - #19
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    Default Re: [PF] Rogue Revised - Now With Cool Rogue Talents! [P.E.A.C.H]

    Ok, I'll try to keep things brief since it's a lot to go over.

    - I hate that you left it w/ the worst saves in the game. Give Rogue a good will save. Force of Personality is just a feat-tax to fix it, and FoP isn't nearly as good as you seem to recall - it doesn't work on ALL will saves...
    - I'd prefer that Ninja and Rogue were just merged into one class and get all the benefits or most of them (picking which you want). Ninja isn't nearly as good as people make it out to be, it's just a rogue with more MAD and useable talents. You're also adding those features to this new rogue, but also giving them ninja stuff. Admittedly, the main reason I'd like Ninja to have rogue stuff is so they can actually *gasp* take the rogue archetypes.
    - As above...making it cha-based makes the class pretty MAD, just as with Ninja. I guess it can work, though... I'd prefer Int-based...

    Weapons: If you like whip, cool. Doesn't help much though unless rogues get to threaten and flank w/ a whip and can get the whip mastery feats in a rogue talent. Give it a level requirement and grant all of them in one talent.
    Buckler: This is meaningless beyond level 1. Rogues were already "proficient" w/ masterwork bucklers. Everyone is "proficient" with any shield once darkwood and mithral are available.

    Rogue Talents...
    Spoiler
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    -Acrobatic Master: Tumbling is still suicidal. Better to just upgrade back to 3E tumble DCs and help all tumblers. Barring that, better to make it +1 per Rogue level to Acrobatics checks (and keep the escape artist replacement, too). Rogues will still fail to tumble on multiple occasions even with this, trust me.
    -Black Market Connections: Would it be so bad if the rogue just got extra money? Rather than having to hold up some of his own wealth on expendable items he may never use? Reduce the gp value to 50 per rogue level and make it require a full day in town if it "balances" it.
    -Befuddling Strike: It's not much of a benefit and requires critting.... The original befuddling strike might actually be better just because it's reliable and predictable. Maybe if the feint was an auto-success, or if rogue had a huge bonus to feinting...
    -Canny Observer: Given the new charisma focus, this seems like it'd be tough to get much benefit from. Bard just does this better w/ bardic knowledge and lore master.
    -Coax Info: Seems underpowered, should give more stuff.
    -Deft Palm: No. Full BAB means more attacks and qualifying for feats on schedule. This is a poor substitute for full BAB. I really don't like this at all, it's not cool mechanically or flavor-wise. And while I know they're the official skill counters... Bluff is more useful than SoH and Perception is WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY more useful and common than sense motive, so the "option" of which to use feels pretty meaningless ("You can get a $1 bill or a punch in the face! It's up to you to choose what you want!").
    -Distracting Attack: Weak penalty, and this is definitely a nerf from the original. DA previously was awesome for a rogue.....'s buddy two level dipping the class. To generate flatfooted (man, how rare is that condition?!) on foes for the rogue to then Sap Master.
    -Fast Picks: Yeah....this still isn't worth a talent. I'd suggest taking this and combining it with Ninja's Undetected Sabotage trick into a single trick/talent.
    -Force of Personality: Already mentioned.
    -Getaway Artist: Pretty dang situational. And once again just glosses over the horrible saves problem. If you insist on keeping the saves the same, how about just letting the rogue use this on ANY fort or will save, but only once per encounter? I'd drop the level requirement a bit; maybe at higher levels (like...14?) it also gives you freedom of movement. Or make an advanced talent available from level 10 that gives FoM and requires GA.
    -Hold Breath: Still horrible. Stop trying to save this joke of a talent, just let it die. Or...make it identical to the Internal Alchemist's Breath Mastery.
    -Honeyed Words: I have no problem with this, but you might actually want to slap a Rogue 4 requirement on it. Not sure if a diplo-master would dip for this ability, but...the req. wouldn't hurt.
    -Iron Guts: Other classes just get eventual immunity to these things.... Still, an improvement.
    -Ledge Walker: I didn't even realize the flatfooted when using in diff. terrain was a thing! Wow, tumble sucks! Good talent, though.
    -Minor Magic: Wait, the Rogue is int-based now? Spell-likes are one of the few things where being cha-based actually makes utter sense... They default to cha-based by RAW as it is!
    -Major Magic: As above.
    -Nimble Climber: Rogue could already get the ninja's Wall Climber. But, whatever.
    -Opportunist: Nice, available right away now? Could definitely be attractive as a dip... Not sure that's a problem, though.
    -Peerless Maneuver: The BAB-replacement is hardly enough to make rogue decent at it, it should also replace Str w/ Dex. And the Imp/Greater feats come way too freaking late. Improved Could come at like...Rogue 4, and Greater at Rogue 8.
    -Rogue Crawl: You took out the ability to 5 ft step while prone....
    -Resiliency: How about all neg. energy and death effects? Does that broaden the use of this much at all?
    -Shadow Blend: Is it total concealment (and thus, you can't be seen), though? The Fetchling racial feature I assume you took this from specifies it is not total conceal. You should say one way or the other, too.
    -Slippery Mind: I'd prefer if you just fixed the will save issue and left this as a reroll...
    -Sniper's Eye: Again with the Int-based...You're making Rogue too MAD. I do like this one, though.
    -Strong Impression: Weaksauce. Various casters (Battle and Time Oracles and Tactics domain clerics, off the top of my head) get abilities to roll 2d20 and later 3d20, take the highest, for Initiative right from level 1. Give rogues that!
    -Strong Stroke: Unlike w/ climb...I don't think 1/2 is good enough, and is barely an improvement over just making swim checks. Make it full speed, and take out the enhancement to existing swim. Also, for this and nimble climber, maybe call out the fact that swim/climb speed means +8 bonus on the skill checks and always take 10.
    -Surprise Attack: Vague. If the enemy knows you're there (from previous combat rounds, say), but you've gone invisible and he fails his check to hear you...do you get this? If you've snuck up on the foe and he's failed any checks to detect you but has tremor/blind-sense, scent, etc... do you get this? I suspect it's "no" for both...
    -Underhanded: Just make rogue int-based already...


    Some things you didn't add that I would:
    -Return of the 3E Darkstalker feat
    -Let SA work in non-total concealment, rather than it being a tax.
    -Undo the nerfs that made SA not work with flasks and blinking
    -A talent that will let a ranged rogue consistently get at least one sneak attack per round
    -A talent for dex to damage. Maybe replacing underhanded.
    -A talent for mind shielding / mind blank / alignment detecting prevention. For spy rogues.
    -A talent to get Spring Attack w/o the other feats, and maybe improve it slightly. (Take any standard action with it? Foe is flatfooted to the attack?)
    Last edited by StreamOfTheSky; 2014-03-09 at 12:51 PM.

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    Default Re: [PF] Rogue Revised - Now With Cool Rogue Talents! [P.E.A.C.H]

    Ah, well... I forgot about the FoP restrictions. We simply use it as completely replacing Wisdom with Charisma on all saving throws. (Which is why I don't mind the focus on Cha). I'll just add a note saying it's a new version of the feat. While I don't think having a good Fort or Will save would be problematic, I wanted to keep it similar to the vanilla Rogue, but give it tools to deal with his weak saves. If the player chooses not to take those options, and they certainly don't cost much, it's the player's fault.

    I thought about merging Rogues and Ninjas into a single class, and used that fix before, but I wanted to try something different for this.

    Being proficient with Whips and Bucklers might be "meaningless". But it's still an improvement. At low levels, a masterwork buckler might not be a priority, so being proficient with them helps a little. I never intended for Rogues to be amazing with whips. I just wanted to give them the option.

    Considering they don't need lots of Str or Wis anymore, having to focus on Dex, Int and Cha seems okay to me. It's still somewhat MAD, but not unreasonably so, IMO.

    I'll have to reply to your comments on specific Talents later, though. But I can say that Distracting Attack is indeed bothering me... It ended up being a weaker version of Offensive Defense... I'm thinking about it giving the Rogue something like Blur against the attacks of the affected target. And maybe increase the penalty to concentration checks, as well as make it apply to skill checks too.

    Oh, and the reason Minor/Major Magic is Int-based is because that's the case with the original talent. -.-'
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  21. - Top - End - #21
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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: [PF] Rogue Revised - Now With Cool Rogue Talents! [P.E.A.C.H]

    Well... My friend found someone else to give her a ride to school, so... Here I am.

    This is a huge post, so I'm spoilerizing it.

    Spoiler
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    Quote Originally Posted by StreamOfTheSky View Post
    Acrobatic Master: Tumbling is still suicidal. Better to just upgrade back to 3E tumble DCs and help all tumblers. Barring that, better to make it +1 per Rogue level to Acrobatics checks (and keep the escape artist replacement, too). Rogues will still fail to tumble on multiple occasions even with this, trust me.
    Changing the DCs would be a overall rules change, not a class ability. That's beyond the scope of this homebrew.

    Quote Originally Posted by StreamOfTheSky View Post
    -Black Market Connections: Would it be so bad if the rogue just got extra money? Rather than having to hold up some of his own wealth on expendable items he may never use? Reduce the gp value to 50 per rogue level and make it require a full day in town if it "balances" it.
    I don't like the idea of characters getting free item. Considering this gives Rogues the ability to pull any random scroll/potion with a full-round action, I'm okay with they spending gold. I'll consider making it so they only pay the crafting price for magic items gained through this ability, though.


    Quote Originally Posted by StreamOfTheSky View Post
    -Befuddling Strike: It's not much of a benefit and requires critting.... The original befuddling strike might actually be better just because it's reliable and predictable. Maybe if the feint was an auto-success, or if rogue had a huge bonus to feinting...
    Well, this lets Rogues actually benefit from bigger crit range. For a Rogue, denying the enemy's Dex-bonus to AC without hurting their action economy is pretty useful.

    Quote Originally Posted by StreamOfTheSky View Post
    -Canny Observer: Given the new charisma focus, this seems like it'd be tough to get much benefit from. Bard just does this better w/ bardic knowledge and lore master.
    Rogues do get the ability to invest in Int, you know? They don't need Str or Wis anymore. Bards being better at Knowledge skills doesn't bother me at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by StreamOfTheSky View Post
    -Coax Info: Seems underpowered, should give more stuff.
    I'm okay with this talent. It's a free skill point and makes Sense Motive Cha-based. I'm fine with that. It could use a buff, but it isn't necessary, IMO. I considered letting it replace Diplomacy as well, but I think that'd be too much. Getting Bluff, Sense Motive and Diplomacy for the cost of a single skill is really good.

    Quote Originally Posted by StreamOfTheSky View Post
    -Deft Palm: No. Full BAB means more attacks and qualifying for feats on schedule. This is a poor substitute for full BAB. I really don't like this at all, it's not cool mechanically or flavor-wise. And while I know they're the official skill counters... Bluff is more useful than SoH and Perception is WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY more useful and common than sense motive, so the "option" of which to use feels pretty meaningless ("You can get a $1 bill or a punch in the face! It's up to you to choose what you want!").
    I like its flavor and mechanic. Sure, it's not as good as having an actual Full BAB, but it's not supposed to be. This is an ability that you can choose to use or not. If you want full BAB, play a class with full BAB. While Sneak Attack is not overpowered, it can be annoying if the character has great accuracy, which is why I reduced its damage while using this ability. If you already have amazing accuracy through whatever other means, then simply don't use this and save it for the next time you need more precision than damage... Or use it on occasions where you wouldn't be able to use Sneak attack anyway. And depending on your opponent, you might want to target his Perception modifier... Clerics, Paladins, Inquisitors, Bards, etc. All have better Sense Motive checks than Perception checks.

    Quote Originally Posted by StreamOfTheSky View Post
    -Distracting Attack: Weak penalty, and this is definitely a nerf from the original. DA previously was awesome for a rogue.....'s buddy two level dipping the class. To generate flatfooted (man, how rare is that condition?!) on foes for the rogue to then Sap Master.
    As I said in my previous post, I'll reconsider this talent. I'm not satisfied with it just yet.

    Quote Originally Posted by StreamOfTheSky View Post
    -Fast Picks: Yeah....this still isn't worth a talent. I'd suggest taking this and combining it with Ninja's Undetected Sabotage trick into a single trick/talent.
    That's a good idea, actually.

    Quote Originally Posted by StreamOfTheSky View Post
    -Force of Personality: Already mentioned.
    Already answered.

    Quote Originally Posted by StreamOfTheSky View Post
    -Getaway Artist: Pretty dang situational. And once again just glosses over the horrible saves problem. If you insist on keeping the saves the same, how about just letting the rogue use this on ANY fort or will save, but only once per encounter? I'd drop the level requirement a bit; maybe at higher levels (like...14?) it also gives you freedom of movement. Or make an advanced talent available from level 10 that gives FoM and requires GA.
    There are now multiple ways to boost a Rogue's save. Between FoP, Slippery Mind and Getaway Artist, plus a few others... A Rogue only has bad save if he wants to. Just like a Barbarain only has bad will saves if he wants to.

    Quote Originally Posted by StreamOfTheSky View Post
    -Hold Breath: Still horrible. Stop trying to save this joke of a talent, just let it die. Or...make it identical to the Internal Alchemist's Breath Mastery.
    Also a good idea. I forgot about that Alchemist's archetype.

    Quote Originally Posted by StreamOfTheSky View Post
    -Honeyed Words: I have no problem with this, but you might actually want to slap a Rogue 4 requirement on it. Not sure if a diplo-master would dip for this ability, but...the req. wouldn't hurt.
    True. I'll move it up to 4th or 6th level.

    Quote Originally Posted by StreamOfTheSky View Post
    -Iron Guts: Other classes just get eventual immunity to these things.... Still, an improvement.
    Hmmm... Getting immunity to poison/disease at high levels is something to consider.

    Quote Originally Posted by StreamOfTheSky View Post
    -Ledge Walker: I didn't even realize the flatfooted when using in diff. terrain was a thing! Wow, tumble sucks! Good talent, though.
    Thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by StreamOfTheSky View Post
    -Minor Magic: Wait, the Rogue is int-based now? Spell-likes are one of the few things where being cha-based actually makes utter sense... They default to cha-based by RAW as it is!
    -Major Magic: As above.
    As I mentioned before, this is Int based just because the original talents were. I just added the number of cantrips learned and uses per day of these abilities.

    Quote Originally Posted by StreamOfTheSky View Post
    -Nimble Climber: Rogue could already get the ninja's Wall Climber. But, whatever.
    Rogues don't have access to Ninja Tricks, though, unless they get the Ki Pool Talent, which might not be the case.

    Quote Originally Posted by StreamOfTheSky View Post
    -Opportunist: Nice, available right away now? Could definitely be attractive as a dip... Not sure that's a problem, though.
    Indeed. I might move this to 6th level.

    Quote Originally Posted by StreamOfTheSky View Post
    -Peerless Maneuver: The BAB-replacement is hardly enough to make rogue decent at it, it should also replace Str w/ Dex. And the Imp/Greater feats come way too freaking late. Improved Could come at like...Rogue 4, and Greater at Rogue 8.
    True. I'll make it so the feats come earlier.

    Quote Originally Posted by StreamOfTheSky View Post
    -Rogue Crawl: You took out the ability to 5 ft step while prone....
    Huh... That's my mistake. I'll add it back.

    Quote Originally Posted by StreamOfTheSky View Post
    -Resiliency: How about all neg. energy and death effects? Does that broaden the use of this much at all?
    Good idea. I'll do that.

    Quote Originally Posted by StreamOfTheSky View Post
    -Shadow Blend: Is it total concealment (and thus, you can't be seen), though? The Fetchling racial feature I assume you took this from specifies it is not total conceal. You should say one way or the other, too.
    True. I'll do that.

    Quote Originally Posted by StreamOfTheSky View Post
    -Slippery Mind: I'd prefer if you just fixed the will save issue and left this as a reroll...
    I'm okay with this talent as it is. Making a Reflex save instead of a Will save is really good.

    Quote Originally Posted by StreamOfTheSky View Post
    -Sniper's Eye: Again with the Int-based...You're making Rogue too MAD. I do like this one, though.
    Like I said, the reduced need for Str and Wis allows Rogues to boost both Int and Cha. They won't be any more MAD than your average Bard or Ranger.

    Quote Originally Posted by StreamOfTheSky View Post
    -Strong Impression: Weaksauce. Various casters (Battle and Time Oracles and Tactics domain clerics, off the top of my head) get abilities to roll 2d20 and later 3d20, take the highest, for Initiative right from level 1. Give rogues that!
    Good idea, actually. Adding reroll at mid/high levels seems okay to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by StreamOfTheSky View Post
    -Strong Stroke: Unlike w/ climb...I don't think 1/2 is good enough, and is barely an improvement over just making swim checks. Make it full speed, and take out the enhancement to existing swim. Also, for this and nimble climber, maybe call out the fact that swim/climb speed means +8 bonus on the skill checks and always take 10.
    Hmmm... Good point. I'll make it so both Talents scales to full movement speed at some point. 6th level, maybe?

    Quote Originally Posted by StreamOfTheSky View Post
    -Surprise Attack: Vague. If the enemy knows you're there (from previous combat rounds, say), but you've gone invisible and he fails his check to hear you...do you get this? If you've snuck up on the foe and he's failed any checks to detect you but has tremor/blind-sense, scent, etc... do you get this? I suspect it's "no" for both...
    If the enemy knows you are there, you don't get max damage. If he doesn't you do. In the first case, the Rogue wouldn't get the benefit because the enemy is aware of his presence, on the second case, that's a GM call, do those senses automatically warn the creature of the Rogue's presence? If yes, then he doesn't get max damage, if no, he does.

    Quote Originally Posted by StreamOfTheSky View Post
    -Underhanded: Just make rogue int-based already...
    I don't want to force Rogues into being Int-based. I just want to give them the option to. And I think I did. Using this rules, it's not difficult to invest in Dex, Int and Cha and still be an effective Rogue. Is someone wants to play a dumb brute Rogue, they can do it too.


    I also really like these ideas:

    Spoiler
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    -Return of the 3E Darkstalker feat
    -Let SA work in non-total concealment, rather than it being a tax.
    -A talent that will let a ranged rogue consistently get at least one sneak attack per round
    -A talent for mind shielding / mind blank / alignment detecting prevention. For spy rogues.
    -A talent to get Spring Attack w/o the other feats, and maybe improve it slightly. (Take any standard action with it? Foe is flatfooted to the attack?)


    I'll take them into consideration.

    Oh, and thank you for the feedback. I really appreciate it.
    Last edited by Lemmy; 2014-03-14 at 05:53 PM.
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  22. - Top - End - #22
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    Default Re: [PF] Rogue Revised - Now With Cool Rogue Talents! [P.E.A.C.H]

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemmy View Post
    While I don't think having a good Fort or Will save would be problematic, I wanted to keep it similar to the vanilla Rogue, but give it tools to deal with his weak saves. If the player chooses not to take those options, and they certainly don't cost much, it's the player's fault.
    I'd rather if you just fixed the problem of "rogue has the worst saves in the game, despite also being one of the weakest classes" directly, rather than through some tax. It's also not particularly beginner-friendly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemmy View Post
    Being proficient with Whips and Bucklers might be "meaningless". But it's still an improvement. I never intended for Rogues to be amazing with whips. I just wanted to give them the option.
    Ok, the first part doesn't even make sense, it can't both be meaningless and an improvement. The shield thing only helps at level 1, but if you cared so much about level 1 viability you wouldn't put off fixing the saves until level 2+. And the whips really are useless for a rogue. He simply will NOT be able to make good use out of it at all. What's the harm in adding a talent to make the whip actually useful for him?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemmy View Post
    Considering they don't need lots of Str or Wis anymore, having to focus on Dex, Int and Cha seems okay to me. It's still somewhat MAD, but not unreasonably so, IMO.
    I still think they need some decent str; relying on SA alone for damage is not a good idea... And of course, Con. Poor fort saves, only d8 HD with below average AC, and supposed to go into melee? Yeah, they need Con at least as much as a fighter does. So rogues now need 4 good stats, like monk. Except...Str and Wis are more useful to a rogue than Int and Cha, respectively, are to a monk. And monk is widely considered to be pretty MAD.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemmy View Post
    But I can say that Distracting Attack is indeed bothering me...
    Why can't it just remain as one of the few ways to generate the actual flat-footed condition? Maybe even *gasp* the rogue can use it to benefit himself on future attacks after delivering it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemmy View Post
    Oh, and the reason Minor/Major Magic is Int-based is because that's the case with the original talent. -.-'
    But....you're changing all the rogue talents. It was int-based before for the same reason a wizard 1st level SLA is int-based while as an identical sorcerer one would be cha-based.... The previous rogue was (lightly) int-based. Cha-based SLAs actually make more sense, if you're pushing the charisma focus anyway.

    Spoiler
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lemmy View Post
    Changing the DCs would be a overall rules change, not a class ability. That's beyond the scope of this homebrew.
    So make it +1 per class level like I suggested as an alternative. It's not as good as fixing the DC, but it's something.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemmy View Post
    For a Rogue, denying the enemy's Dex-bonus to AC without hurting their action economy is pretty useful.
    Not when it's so unreliable/unpredictable. Critting alone is rare, then you have to make a feint check. And then possibly not benefit till next turn if you have no more attacks left. While as say...Tripping Strike works similarly but making them prone affects the enemy directly and benefits everyone in the party (all melee, at least) *and* gives AoOs if you have Greater Trip (which you should if you have Tripping Strike).

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemmy View Post
    I like its flavor and mechanic. Sure, it's not as good as having an actual Full BAB, but it's not supposed to be. This is an ability that you can choose to use or not. If you want full BAB, play a class with full BAB. While Sneak Attack is not overpowered, it can be annoying if the character has great accuracy, which is why I reduced its damage while using this ability. If you already have amazing accuracy through whatever other means, then simply don't use this and save it for the next time you need more precision than damage... Or use it on occasions where you wouldn't be able to use Sneak attack anyway. And depending on your opponent, you might want to target his Perception modifier... Clerics, Paladins, Inquisitors, Bards, etc. All have better Sense Motive checks than Perception checks.
    I don't mind rogues not having full BAB, I prefer solutions that avoid resorting to that, in fact. I just took issue w/ you claiming this was just as good as full BAB. I don't care for the talent myself, but there's nothing wrong with it. Clerics and such have better Sense Motives if and only if they max both skills or invest in SM more than Perception. That doesn't actually happen most of the time. And among monsters w/o class levels, Perception is a more common "class skill" than Sense Motive, as far as I know.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemmy View Post
    Rogues don't have access to Ninja Tricks, though, unless they get the Ki Pool Talent, which might not be the case.
    Wall Climber does not cost ki to use, it is a constant benefit. Not all ninja tricks use ki.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemmy View Post
    Like I said, the reduced need for Str and Wis allows Rogues to boost both Int and Cha. They won't be any more MAD than your average Bard or Ranger.
    And like I said, they're still quite MAD and Bard and Ranger aren't as bad off as your rogue. Monk is a better comparison.
    Ranger needs Str and/or Dex, some Con (less than rogue needs), and moderately good Wis. Int just needs to not be negative and Cha is a complete and utter dump stat.
    Bard needs Dex, Cha, and maybe a slight Int bonus (Int 10 is perfectly fine, though you are rewarded for making it better). Because he's a full caster and buffer, he doesn't need the str/con for melee that a rogue does, he has other things he can do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemmy View Post
    Hmmm... Good point. I'll make it so both Talents scales to full movement speed at some point. 6th level, maybe?
    Sure.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemmy View Post
    If the enemy knows you are there, you don't get max damage. If he doesn't you do. In the first case, the Rogue wouldn't get the benefit because the enemy is aware of his presence, on the second case, that's a GM call, do those senses automatically warn the creature of the Rogue's presence? If yes, then he doesn't get max damage, if no, he does.
    The senses would tell the creature that someone is in X square, but they wouldn't "see" the rogue or know who is there specifically. Just that the person is there. (I guess if they're familiar with the rogue's scent it could inform them it's the rogue)

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemmy View Post
    I don't want to force Rogues into being Int-based. I just want to give them the option to. And I think I did.
    But you are forcing all rogues to be cha-based. I don't get why one forced stat dependency is better than the other, and original rogue was int-based to begin with, but whatever...it basically comes down to preferences. I wish you'd stop splitting up the dependency between two secondary stats so much, though.


    Glad you like some of my ideas, I think this is still pretty good despite all my critiques.
    Last edited by StreamOfTheSky; 2014-03-15 at 10:57 AM.

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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: [PF] Rogue Revised - Now With Cool Rogue Talents! [P.E.A.C.H]

    Spoilerizing because, again, it's a pretty big post.

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    Quote Originally Posted by StreamOfTheSky View Post
    I'd rather if you just fixed the problem of "rogue has the worst saves in the game, despite also being one of the weakest classes" directly, rather than through some tax. It's also not particularly beginner-friendly.
    I don't want to modify the Rogue's chassis in this homebrew... Maybe next time. I don't mind Rogues having weak saves if they have the means and resources to compensate for that weakness. At low levels, Rogue's saves aren't all that bad. They start to be a nuisance at levels 6~7, when Reflex loses importance, but by then, a Rogue can already have a couple talents to boost his saves.

    Quote Originally Posted by StreamOfTheSky View Post
    Ok, the first part doesn't even make sense, it can't both be meaningless and an improvement. The shield thing only helps at level 1, but if you cared so much about level 1 viability you wouldn't put off fixing the saves until level 2+. And the whips really are useless for a rogue. He simply will NOT be able to make good use out of it at all. What's the harm in adding a talent to make the whip actually useful for him?
    You are the one saying it's meaningless. I don't think it is. Being proficient with bucklers can help at 1st and 2nd levels, when a masterwork buckler may not be a priority. It's also flavorful. About whips... Well, the same thing could be said about any weapon, really. Considering Rogues already have access too Weapon Focus as a Talent, they can get Whip Mastery earlier than most classes with medium BAB, and even some with full BAB.

    Quote Originally Posted by StreamOfTheSky View Post
    I still think they need some decent str; relying on SA alone for damage is not a good idea... And of course, Con. Poor fort saves, only d8 HD with below average AC, and supposed to go into melee? Yeah, they need Con at least as much as a fighter does. So rogues now need 4 good stats, like monk. Except...Str and Wis are more useful to a rogue than Int and Cha, respectively, are to a monk. And monk is widely considered to be pretty MAD.
    With Underhanded and/or Sniper's Eye, a Rogue can easily have low Str and focus on Dex, Int and Cha. Additionally, with FoP (which, as I said, I'll be making a new version of the feat just to complement this homebrew) and stuff such as Slippery Mind, Wisdom is pretty meaningless. Con is a necessity for everyone. With a 15pt buy, Rogues could, for example, have a 10 17 12 14 7 14, get FoP and almost completely ignore the low Wis score. His Perception bonus wouldn't be as good, but other than that, it's a dump stat.

    Quote Originally Posted by StreamOfTheSky View Post
    Why can't it just remain as one of the few ways to generate the actual flat-footed condition? Maybe even *gasp* the rogue can use it to benefit himself on future attacks after delivering it.
    I'll revise that talent... I'm thinking about it adding an ability for Rogues to make enemies flat-footed when he successfully feints them. There are a few ways to feint without hurting action economy... Two-Weapon Feint and Befuddling Strike come to mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by StreamOfTheSky View Post
    But....you're changing all the rogue talents. It was int-based before for the same reason a wizard 1st level SLA is int-based while as an identical sorcerer one would be cha-based.... The previous rogue was (lightly) int-based. Cha-based SLAs actually make more sense, if you're pushing the charisma focus anyway.
    Yeah, I changed it to Cha. All I did before was Ctrl+C Ctrl+V it and add more uses (and known cantrips) to those talents. I'm not sure why they are Int-based in the original rules, actually.

    Quote Originally Posted by StreamOfTheSky View Post
    So make it +1 per class level like I suggested as an alternative. It's not as good as fixing the DC, but it's something.
    Most skill bonus raise at the 1/2 level rate... I'll think about it, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by StreamOfTheSky View Post
    Not when it's so unreliable/unpredictable. Critting alone is rare, then you have to make a feint check. And then possibly not benefit till next turn if you have no more attacks left. While as say...Tripping Strike works similarly but making them prone affects the enemy directly and benefits everyone in the party (all melee, at least) *and* gives AoOs if you have Greater Trip (which you should if you have Tripping Strike).
    I dunno... I like this talent. It's not incredibly powerful, but it's a nice bonus if your character have a good crit threat range. I think it's still more useful (or at very least, more interesting) than the original talent because Offensive Defense already does what it did, but better. I think I'll add a bonus equal to the weapon enhancement to the Rogue's bluff check, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by StreamOfTheSky View Post
    I don't mind rogues not having full BAB, I prefer solutions that avoid resorting to that, in fact. I just took issue w/ you claiming this was just as good as full BAB. I don't care for the talent myself, but there's nothing wrong with it. Clerics and such have better Sense Motives if and only if they max both skills or invest in SM more than Perception. That doesn't actually happen most of the time. And among monsters w/o class levels, Perception is a more common "class skill" than Sense Motive, as far as I know.
    What I meant by "basically gives him full BAB" is that the attack bonus is about the same. It's not as good as having full BAB, but it gives Rogues a much needed boost to accuracy.

    Quote Originally Posted by StreamOfTheSky View Post
    Wall Climber does not cost ki to use, it is a constant benefit. Not all ninja tricks use ki.
    I see. But Rogues still have to spend a feat to get it. Anyway, it's a minor ability.

    Quote Originally Posted by StreamOfTheSky View Post
    And like I said, they're still quite MAD and Bard and Ranger aren't as bad off as your rogue. Monk is a better comparison.
    Ranger needs Str and/or Dex, some Con (less than rogue needs), and moderately good Wis. Int just needs to not be negative and Cha is a complete and utter dump stat.
    Bard needs Dex, Cha, and maybe a slight Int bonus (Int 10 is perfectly fine, though you are rewarded for making it better). Because he's a full caster and buffer, he doesn't need the str/con for melee that a rogue does, he has other things he can do.
    So a melee Rogue is about as MAD as a melee Bard. I'm okay with that.

    Quote Originally Posted by StreamOfTheSky View Post
    The senses would tell the creature that someone is in X square, but they wouldn't "see" the rogue or know who is there specifically. Just that the person is there. (I guess if they're familiar with the rogue's scent it could inform them it's the rogue)
    Then I'd say the Rogue doesn't get max damage. But isn't there a feat that allow Rogues to bypass stuff like Scent and Tremor Sense?

    Quote Originally Posted by StreamOfTheSky View Post
    But you are forcing all rogues to be cha-based. I don't get why one forced stat dependency is better than the other, and original rogue was int-based to begin with, but whatever...it basically comes down to preferences. I wish you'd stop splitting up the dependency between two secondary stats so much, though.
    I was trying to make it so that Rogues can invest in Int/Cha without fear of being gimped, because IME, those are the attributes I see most Rogue players investing into, despite the fact that they currently are dump stats for the class. It's still possible to make a Str and/or Wis based Rogue if you want... You wouldn't benefit as much from some Rogue Talents, but OTOH, you don't need Talents such as Force of Personality, Coax Information or Underhanded/Sniper's Eye.

    Quote Originally Posted by StreamOfTheSky View Post
    Glad you like some of my ideas, I think this is still pretty good despite all my critiques.
    Thank you. I really appreciate your feedback. You can make harsh criticism without being rude. And you often provide many good ideas.


    BTW, I'm currently play-testing this homebrew in a RotRL game I'm playing. I also used it for few NPCs in the campaign I'm GMing. As NPCs, they did pretty well, considering they were 2 levels below the PCs. As a PC, it's not bad, but we are still at low levels, so I can't say much... The build I'm going for is similar to the sample build in my OP.

    I think the only feats I need are Weapon Finesse, Combat Reflexes (for some reason I really like this feat) and Shadow Strike (which I'm considering giving for free to all 5th level Rogues/Ninjas). My other feats will probably be spent on Extra Rogue Talents... lol.
    Last edited by Lemmy; 2014-03-18 at 10:19 AM.
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  24. - Top - End - #24
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    Default Re: [PF] Rogue Revised - Now With Cool Rogue Talents! [P.E.A.C.H]

    After thinking about Acrobatic Master. I modified it so that the DC for tumbling doesn't increase for moving at your full speed. This gives Rogues a pretty good chance of tumbling past opponents.

    On Acrobatic Master and Tumbling.

    From what I've seen in the PF Bestiary, a Rogue actually has a pretty good chance of successfully tumbling through threatened squares... Usually about 60%.

    Here are a few examples... All of them are CR = Rogue level +2 (so, probably a boss encounter) and at least 1 size category above medium.

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    First, at 2nd level, he faces a 4th level Barbarian (with full PC gear), whose CMD is something like:

    10 + 4 BAB + 6 Str (during Rage) + 2 Dex -2 (Rage) = 20.

    The Rogue has a tumble bonus of 2 (ranks) + 4 (Dex) + 3 (class skill) + 1 (Acrobatic Master) + 1 (Cha) = +11. so that's a 60% chance of success.

    At 3rd level, he faces an Large Earth Elemental (CR 5; CMD 25). The Rogue has an Tumble bonus of:

    3 (ranks) + 4 (Dex) + 3 (class skill) + 1 (Acrobatic Master) + 1 (Cha) = 12. This is one of the most difficult tumble checks for our heroic Rogue, but he still has a 35% chance of success. 50% if he has Skill Focus, but that's unlikely at this level.

    At 6th level, that same Rogue had a pretty good chance of Tumbling past a Stone Giant (CR 8; CMD 30)

    6 (ranks) + 5 (Dex) + 3 (class skill) + 3 (Acrobatic Master) + 2 (Cha) = 19. Which is a 50% chance of success... 65% with Skill Focus.

    Later on the campaign, the Rogue encounters an Adult Blue Dragon (CR 13) with a CMD of 36.

    At 11th level, our hero has an Acrobatics checks (for tumbling) of:

    11 (ranks) + 6 (Dex) + 3 (class skill) + 5 (Acrobatic Master) + 2 (Cha) = +27, which gives him a 60% chance of success. 90% if he has Skill Focus.

    Against an Ancient Red Dragon (CR 19, CMD 52) a 17th level Rogue with Acrobatic Master would have only a 35% chance of success...

    17 (ranks) + 8 (Dex) + 3 (class skill) + 8 (Acrobatic Master) + 2 (Cha) = 38

    Unless he raises his Cha a bit and gets Skill Focus...

    17 (ranks) + 8 (Dex) + 3 (class skill) + 8 (Acrobatic Master) + 4 (Cha) +6 Skill Focus = 46 = 75% chance of success. Before buffs.

    And this is ignoring the fact that by 17th level, a Rogue is likely to have even higher Dex/Cha modifiers and probably a buff or two, such as Greater Heroism, at all times.


    Surprisingly... A Rogue with Acrobatic Master has a better chance of tumbling at high levels than at low levels, despite the disproportionatel rate at which CMD scales.

    Of course, tumbling won't be a sure thing against much bigger creatures, and there are enemies that are all but impossible to tumble past, but the Rogue can tumble successfully more often than not against most opponents.
    Last edited by Lemmy; 2014-03-18 at 10:25 AM.
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    Default Re: [PF] Rogue Revised - Now With Cool Rogue Talents! [P.E.A.C.H]

    Heh, im currently using your small rogue tweaks to make a villian for one of my upcoming games; Daxter Mapcap, insane gnome terrorist/nature protecter.

    If your interested;

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    Current build is a level 8 male gnome rogue; using the alternate racial traits for Knack with Poison and Master Tinker, and the archtypes Trapsmith, Carnivalist, Glory Rogue, and Pet Trainer, all found here;

    http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue

    Has the extra traits feat + 2 base traits; has Trap Finder, Deft Dodger, Carefully Hidden, and Survivalist (+5 to survival checks to gather food one).

    Basic idea is to have 8 level 1 druid-level worth of animal companions and a single intelligent familiar, and heavy use of handle animal, craft (alchemy), etc, to make items such as satchel bombs, tnt, flasks of alchemist fire, and portable traps and the like and have the pets place them around an entire town, while Daxter can use his remote trap activation rogue talent while he has guardsmen chase him to cause his makeshift traps go off behind him - causing the only people who can defend the town to suffer massive casualties, and/or burning half of the town down from random fires his pets cause. And, should he ever be cornered, his crow familiar is trained to use a wand/command word, and/or sneak attack (due to carnivalist familiars gaining the masters sneak damage dice).

    Essentially, with 20 intelligence and 16 wisdom, he predicts what the pc's could and counters it and keeps them divided, separated, or in lose-lose situations. Sound frustrating enough for a group of four level 3's on the verge of 4?
    Last edited by Jane_Smith; 2014-03-18 at 11:40 AM.

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    Default Re: [PF] Rogue Revised - Now With Cool Rogue Talents! [P.E.A.C.H]

    Haha! That character sounds awesome!

    Just so you know, I'm not responsible for any stress or injury caused by frustrated players. Consider giving Daxter the Black Market Connections talent, so he can pull all sorts of scrolls and potions from his backpack. Then enjoy the look of astonishment in your players' faces as they wonder how the hell could this guy be so well prepared...

    Oh! And Acrobatic Master and Ledge Walker can make him even more slippery!

    Please, tell me how it goes. I'm curious to know what tricks the little Gnome pulls on your players.
    Last edited by Lemmy; 2014-03-18 at 09:02 PM.
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    Default Re: [PF] Rogue Revised - Now With Cool Rogue Talents! [P.E.A.C.H]

    Like I said over at Paizo, this is awesome Lemmy! But I feel it maybe could use a few stronger options for improving action economy. Not pounce, perhaps, but say stuff that allows for higher level "peek-a-boo!"-combos such as: short stealth move + full attack + move back into cover. Or weird acrobatic attacks which combines tumbling with SA and full attacks. And really heroic stunts like tumbling up on very much larger creatures (think hiding on the giant's back while stabbing it in the eye kinda stuff). I also wouldn't mind seeing a few more talents focused on sniping, for example granting allies bonuses when hitting an enemy with ranged attacks while unseen (which should be really confusing for the target).

    Which reminds me, I actually made a home brew sniper PrC for the last 3.5 game I played in (quite a few years back) that had some similar features. It was a major step up from the regular rogue but still didn't feel anyway near OP. I'm gonna see if I can find it somewhere.

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    Default Re: [PF] Rogue Revised - Now With Cool Rogue Talents! [P.E.A.C.H]

    Yeah, I'm thinking about adding more mobility-related talents. Positioning Strike helps a little with that, though, and Acrobatic Master actually gives Rogues a pretty good chance of tumbling past opponents.

    Scout archetype helps Rogues to stay relevant after moving. I'm thinking about adding its abilities to the core Rogue/Ninja, as well as giving them the Shadow Strike feat for free somewhere between 3rd and 7th level...

    And as usual, thanks for the feedback.
    Last edited by Lemmy; 2014-03-19 at 03:30 PM.
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    Default Re: [PF] Rogue Revised - Now With Cool Rogue Talents! [P.E.A.C.H]

    Have you guys seen the Talented Rogue? Same guys who made "The Vanguard"/etc classes made it. Basically, the rogue loses sneak attack/trapfinding/etc innately, but gains talents EVERY level, and 'edges', which as things that all the archtypes give as options at level 1, 2, 3, 4, 8, and 20.

    So - if you want a non-combat based rogue, you could toss sneak attack dice and gain more talents then the average core rogue overall. If you want a combat bard, youd have to spend level 1, 3's, etc talent points as normal for sneak damage advancement.

    However, it suffers because, as you pointed out here, normal rogue talents suck. And it didn't CHANGE the talents, it only made the entire class a modular design/list-options per level. If we combined Talented Rogue with your talent changes? We would have a nice piece of rogue to toy with (especially considering it allows features from archetypes that normally dont work together to function without multitasking or adding a huge list of obscure archtypes to obtain).

    Also - they added a talent for talented rogues that actually gives them +1 base attack bonus, not to exceed there rogue level, you can take up to 5 times by level 20 tops. However, it has an extreme drawback I despise - you cannot benefit from any form of precision damage. Not just sneak damage, ALL precision damage, forever. Something that could be tossed in favor of like 'oh you cant sneak attack during a full attack' or something would be better I think.
    Last edited by Jane_Smith; 2014-03-19 at 02:34 PM.

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    Default Re: [PF] Rogue Revised - Now With Cool Rogue Talents! [P.E.A.C.H]

    I actually bought the Talented Rogue .pdf a week or two after it came out, but I had the same issues with it that you did: They kept the old Rogue Talents (which are mediocre at best and a self-nerf at worst), and the one talent that could be useful takes away Sneak Attack and all other forms of precision damage.

    It's better than the standard Rogue, of course, but that isn't saying much... -.-'
    Last edited by Lemmy; 2014-03-19 at 03:40 PM.
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