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  1. - Top - End - #871
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIX: "Understand the gravity of the situation."

    Quote Originally Posted by Olinser View Post
    Phase out was 'always' part of the Necron design philosophy. Until they realized what a poor rule it was. So they completely removed it in the new codex.
    The difference is that Phase Out made Necrons completely unplayable. Synapse is an inconvenience.

    Now Tyranids are literally the only 6th edition codex that does not have a non-flyer Skyfire unit
    Fine. Let's do this.

    Chaos Marines; Flakk Havocs. Largely ignored in favour of Autocannon Havocs and Forgefiends, relying on Rate of Fire, rather than Skyfire.
    Dark Angels; Flakk Devastators. Ignored for every reason that Flakk Havocs are (cost), but, don't have Autocannons or Forgefiends to pick up the slack. But, the 'Angels get Nephalim Jetfighters, right? How good is that?
    Chaos Daemons; Soul Grinders. Technically a good choice, but, suffers from 'not a Daemon Prince'.
    Eldar; Eldar Missile Launchers. The number of times I've seen Dark Reapers or War Walkers, I can count in single digits, put together. Eldar rely more on rate of fire, rather than Skyfire. Seems familiar.
    Tau; Only army in the game where Skyfire actually means something.
    Space Marines; Stalkers and Hunters both suck. The only 'good' option is Imperial Fist Devastators with Flakk Missiles. Because this requires Imperial Fists (not for everyone), and Flakk Devastators are still expensive, this is why Codex Marines still use Stormtalons in every list.

    So...Tau.

    Now with no assault after flanking and Overwatch, Genestealers are almost totally useless
    Yep. But, nothing the Codex could have done, could have made Genestealers good because of the two rules that make them pointless. The only way those problems get solved is either Assaulting from Reserves (hah, no), or getting a 4+ Save.

    If they were shooty units, you would hear much less complaint.
    Guess what? Shooty units also have 4+ Saves. Just one of the reasons Fire Warriors and Dire Avengers are so good.
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2014-01-15 at 07:48 PM.
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  2. - Top - End - #872
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIX: "Understand the gravity of the situation."

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    The difference is that Phase Out made Necrons completely unplayable. Synapse is an inconvenience.



    Fine. Let's do this.

    Chaos Marines; Flakk Havocs. Largely ignored in favour of Autocannon Havocs and Forgefiends, relying on Rate of Fire, rather than Skyfire.
    Dark Angels; Flakk Devastators. Ignored for every reason that Flakk Havocs are (cost), but, don't have Autocannons or Forgefiends to pick up the slack. But, the 'Angels get Nephalim Jetfighters, right? How good is that?
    Chaos Daemons; Soul Grinders. Technically a good choice, but, suffers from 'not a Daemon Prince'.
    Eldar; Eldar Missile Launchers. The number of times I've seen Dark Reapers or War Walkers, I can count in single digits, put together. Eldar rely more on rate of fire, rather than Skyfire. Seems familiar.
    Tau; Only army in the game where Skyfire actually means something.
    Space Marines; Stalkers and Hunters both suck. The only 'good' option is Imperial Fist Devastators with Flakk Missiles. Because this requires Imperial Fists (not for everyone), and Flakk Devastators are still expensive, this is why Codex Marines still use Stormtalons in every list.

    So...Tau.



    Yep. But, nothing the Codex could have done, could have made Genestealers good because of the two rules that make them pointless. The only way those problems get solved is either Assaulting from Reserves (hah, no), or getting a 4+ Save.



    Guess what? Shooty units also have 4+ Saves. Just one of the reasons Fire Warriors and Dire Avengers are so good.
    I'm confused as to what your list is. Are you admitting that I'm right, and that Tyranids are the only 6th edition Codex without a Skyfire unit right now? Because that's what your list proved.

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  3. - Top - End - #873
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIX: "Understand the gravity of the situation."

    Quote Originally Posted by Olinser View Post
    I'm confused as to what your list is. Are you admitting that I'm right, and that Tyranids are the only 6th edition Codex without a Skyfire unit right now?
    My point is to point out your fallacy. That Skyfire doesn't matter as much as you seem to think that it does. The only Codex that has Skyfire that matters is Tau. And Tau are Tau. And, if we're going to compare Tyranids with Tau (or Eldar), then Tyranids are always going to have the worse Codex, which I've already admitted previously.

    On that note, I'm done. IMO, Tyranids are better off than they were before - with the exception of people who have 3+ Tervigons in their case. Are Tyranids as good as other Codecies? No. But were they ever going to be?

    Now I think I'll probably get around to addressing why Orks are bad.
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2014-01-15 at 08:25 PM.
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  4. - Top - End - #874
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIX: "Understand the gravity of the situation."

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    My point is to point out your fallacy. That Skyfire doesn't matter as much as you seem to think that it does. The only Codex that has Skyfire that matters is Tau. And Tau are Tau. And, if we're going to compare Tyranids with Tau (or Eldar), then Tyranids are always going to have the worse Codex, which I've already admitted previously.

    On that note, I'm done. IMO, Tyranids are better off than they were before - with the exception of people who have 3+ Tervigons in their case. Are Tyranids as good as other Codecies? No. But were they ever going to be?

    Now I think I'll probably get around to addressing why Orks are bad.
    There is no fallacy. I said that Tyranids are the ONLY 6th edition codex without it. Which is totally accurate. Whether or not it is on an effective unit is irrelevant - they didn't even make an effort to include it. And let's be honest, GW has proven themselves pretty poor at anticipating which units will be good or bad, they pretty clearly didn't INTEND for the bulk of the Skyfire units to be not worth taking.

    Also, add the lack of Skyfire to the fact that Tyranids are pretty much the only army that can't use a Quad Gun and at least get some Skyfire, for no real reason other than screw Nids.

    The lack of Skyfire, no allies, not able to use emplaced weapons, poor saves on expensive CC specialized troops, shackling to an annoying rule that has more basis in fluff than any gameplay, and no avenue for deep strike except for FMCs and specific units all contributes to the overall feel of the Codex - that this is a middling 5th edition codex.

    Except we're in SIXTH edition. Separate from gripes about power, the codex simply feels outdated for the way the game is played. Which is a very bad thing, because it's brand new. Heck, even most of the fluff and pictures were outright copy-pasted from the previous codex.
    Last edited by Olinser; 2014-01-15 at 11:02 PM.

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  5. - Top - End - #875
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIX: "Understand the gravity of the situation."

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Now I think I'll probably get around to addressing why Orks are bad.
    Yay! I appreciate the perspective.

    Quote Originally Posted by Olinser View Post
    There is no fallacy. I said that Tyranids are the ONLY 6th edition codex without it. Which is totally accurate. Whether or not it is on an effective unit is irrelevant - they didn't even make an effort to include it.
    I posit that Sisters of Battle (while sadly barely being an army in my opinion, is still technically 6e) also have no Skyfire, and that IG (despite still being 5e) do have it, because Hydras. So...yeah, pedantry.

    ...Wait, do Necrons have anything? I don't think I've ever heard of them using anything but flyers to counter flyers at-BS. That could be a thing. And was the "No Quadguns!" eratta part of the BBB or Nids one? It would be invalid either way (codex release date superceding older faq dates), but ESPECIALLY if it was tied to the old codex. Hopefully they'll be less unreasonable this time around--I totally want to see converted walls and quad-organisms.

    Tangentially related, I'm having trouble imagining why Nids would ever evolve Skyfire when they could just grow wings. The only non-flying animals that hunt birds to my knowledge are 10 times their size or the aptly named bird-eating spider, which wouldn't work on the tabletop. That sucker would have to have some kind of secret web rule covering a piece of terrain, and if a plane passed over it, the plane would have to make a test or get forcibly stopped and suffer an automatic assault from the spiderfexigon (or blow up from moving too slow) It could shoot webs and be the source of barbed stranglers, have a reel in effect like BA Dreadnought Magnagrapples, scale impassable terrain, have a poisonous bite...

    ....Strike what I said before, that would totally work and sounds kind of badass. Come on, GW, bring on a(nother) 400 ton spider!
    Last edited by Hootman; 2014-01-16 at 03:11 AM.

  6. - Top - End - #876
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIX: "Understand the gravity of the situation."

    Necron Codex is 5e. Both Sisters and Necrons, however, can ally in Skyfire, which Nids can't. And Necrons can use Quad Guns, it was Nids who had it errata'd out (unless I'm misremembering it. I know Nids can't, but I'm almost certain Crons can).

    Actually, Necrons DO have access to Skyfire, as Night Scythes and Doom Scythes are Flyers and therefore have access to it. Not to mention some of their Apocalypse units have it, if you want to count those too.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIX: "Understand the gravity of the situation."

    Quote Originally Posted by Hootman View Post
    It could shoot webs and be the source of barbed stranglers, have a reel in effect like BA Dreadnought Magnagrapples, scale impassable terrain, have a poisonous bite...

    ....Strike what I said before, that would totally work and sounds kind of badass. Come on, GW, bring on a(nother) 400 ton spider!
    So basically the lovechild of a forgefiend (dakka-arms) and a Haruspex (grappletongue)

    I can see this work!

    Also, on charging into assault: my Wych cult would like to talk. T3 6+ takes a surprising ammount of casualties even from snapshots.

  8. - Top - End - #878
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIX: "Understand the gravity of the situation."

    Quote Originally Posted by Requizen View Post
    Actually, Necrons DO have access to Skyfire, as Night Scythes and Doom Scythes are Flyers and therefore have access to it. Not to mention some of their Apocalypse units have it, if you want to count those too.
    At the time, the OP wasn't counting flyers:

    Quote Originally Posted by Olinser View Post
    Now Tyranids are literally the only 6th edition codex that does not have a non-flyer Skyfire unit (Interceptor I can live without, I didn't expect them to put it in, though it could have been interesting to have something like Ripper Swarms have an ability that let them immediately assault something that came in Deep Strike close to them).
    Quote Originally Posted by Requizen View Post
    Not to mention some of their Apocalypse units have it, if you want to count those too.
    As you say, Necrons have Skyfire ground-based Forgeworld units.

    And recently, GW tournaments have starting permitting Forgeworld stuff- according to Warseer at least.
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2014-01-16 at 07:14 AM.
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  9. - Top - End - #879
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIX: "Understand the gravity of the situation."

    On Harlequins: they would be good if you could guarantee first turn and/or have constant veil of tears. Or plenty of LOS blocking terrain. As it is going second for eldar really hurts them as they are just T3, 5++ and really get blasted during that first turn.
    Even at their cheapest Harlequins are still 25 points for a T3 5++ model, and thats just to much for a unit that would get torn apart by lasgun fire, especially when just a few additional points would get you T6 3+, that generally laughs of less than krak missiles.
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  10. - Top - End - #880
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIX: "Understand the gravity of the situation."

    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    Even at their cheapest Harlequins are still 25 points for a T3 5++ model, and thats just to much for a unit that would get torn apart by lasgun fire, especially when just a few additional points would get you T6 3+, that generally laughs of less than krak missiles.
    They do get torn apart by bolter/lasgun fire if the player is willing to come close. Then he still risks a lucky veil roll, and is in easy assault range.

  11. - Top - End - #881
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIX: "Understand the gravity of the situation."

    Quote Originally Posted by Olinser View Post
    There is no fallacy. I said that Tyranids are the ONLY 6th edition codex without it. Which is totally accurate. Whether or not it is on an effective unit is irrelevant - they didn't even make an effort to include it.
    I'm not saying you're not wrong. Fallacy isn't the word I was looking for. But, I am saying that your argument doesn't matter, because the Codecies that do have Skyfire, aren't using it anyway. No, Tyranids didn't get a Skyfire option, but who cares? If they did have a Skyfire option, would that have increased points cost? Almost certainly, yes - and that would be bad. It's the Tyrants' 2+ Save all over again, it doesn't matter because you're not using it anyway.

    See this post? Any unit not in it, can be ignored. You know why I don't care about Genestealers being crap? Because they were always crap. You know why I don't care about Shrikes having a 5+ Save and being crap? Because they always had 5+ saves and crap. What's the point in being negative just to be negative? I learned that lesson a long time ago on this forum.

    What nerfs actually matter in the Codex? Tervigons, and Synapse change. Biomancy, too. But, everyone playing the game could already see that Tervigons and Biomancy Circus had to be nerfed.


    To everyone else though. No really. I'm done now. I wont talk about Tyranids for at least a week while I get some games in. This weekend I've got an Apocalypse game. So, that's happening. Maybe Shadowsword Gotthammer can rack up another Super-Heavy kill.
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  12. - Top - End - #882
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIX: "Understand the gravity of the situation."

    Actually the Adepta Sororitas/ Sisters 6th edition "codex" contains zero skyfire of any sort, thus disproven.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIX: "Understand the gravity of the situation."

    Quote Originally Posted by Issabella View Post
    Actually the Adepta Sororitas/ Sisters 6th edition "codex" contains zero skyfire of any sort, thus disproven.
    What, the White Dwarf updates? Wasn't that released in 5th edition still? I've never even met anybody that played them since 4th edition.

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  14. - Top - End - #884
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIX: "Understand the gravity of the situation."

    Quote Originally Posted by Olinser View Post
    What, the White Dwarf updates? Wasn't that released in 5th edition still? I've never even met anybody that played them since 4th edition.
    There's a 6th ed PDF version that's mostly the same but is a little better.
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  15. - Top - End - #885
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIX: "Understand the gravity of the situation."

    CheeseGear (or anyone, I guess), I noticed you had a breakdown of each of the SM chapters in the little guide in the OP. Have you taken a look at any of the Forge World Chapters, since FW is now considered as core as GW (as far as I've heard), how do they measure up to the Codex Chapters?

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIX: "Understand the gravity of the situation."

    I'm just thinking...

    If using an Imperial Bastion, to have a Quad Gun...

    Does the Quad Gun need to be on the battlements, or could it be incorporated into a closed turret, with the correct modelling?

    I figure that hiding dudes inside the tower, instead of being out on the battlements is wise.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIX: "Understand the gravity of the situation."

    Quote Originally Posted by Requizen View Post
    CheeseGear (or anyone, I guess), I noticed you had a breakdown of each of the SM chapters in the little guide in the OP. Have you taken a look at any of the Forge World Chapters, since FW is now considered as core as GW (as far as I've heard), how do they measure up to the Codex Chapters?
    It's around here somewhere... Bingo.
    Quote Originally Posted by bluntpencil View Post
    I'm just thinking...

    If using an Imperial Bastion, to have a Quad Gun...

    Does the Quad Gun need to be on the battlements, or could it be incorporated into a closed turret, with the correct modelling?

    I figure that hiding dudes inside the tower, instead of being out on the battlements is wise.
    Probably would be classified as modeling for an advantage, so, no.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIX: "Understand the gravity of the situation."

    Quote Originally Posted by Issabella View Post
    Actually the Adepta Sororitas/ Sisters 6th edition "codex" contains zero skyfire of any sort, thus disproven.
    Well, quad gun/icarus with BS5, Forge World (but WH40K legal) units, and Exorcist being far better AA tank (in a pinch) than everything Tyranids could field do mitigate it to big extent.

    Quote Originally Posted by Closet_Skeleton View Post
    There's a 6th ed PDF version that's mostly the same but is a little better.
    I'd say it's worse, save for maybe one or two units. Sisters seem to mostly lost options in it
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIX: "Understand the gravity of the situation."

    Quote Originally Posted by Squark View Post
    It's around here somewhere... Bingo.
    Ah, thanks mate. I must have skipped over it previously because I was so focused on my Crons, but now that I'm looking to expand my models to a new army, possibly Marines, I'm happy for the info

    On the other hand, I have a Grey Knight Terminator squad and could probably expand that into an army, but they seem to have less overall options than other SM chapters, since it's all Terminators/Paladins or Strike Knight variants. I mean, that makes box buying easy, but still.

    Mantis Warriors, Minotoaurs, and Imperial Fists seem cool. I'll do some more research, but I still have a ways to go with my first army as it is.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIX: "Understand the gravity of the situation."

    Forge World Space Marine Chapter Tactics and Characters

    Available for download here, and here.
    Remember, just because you have the same Chapter Tactics as say, Ultramarines, doesn't mean you are Ultramarines, and you can't take their special characters. It's the same with Pedro Kantor being an Imperial Fist but can't have Lysander in the same Detachment. But, remember that Space Marines can still Ally with themselves.

    Excellent: Auto-include. Must take. Best-in-slot. You need a seriously good reason for not picking up a choice like this.
    Usable: Useful in (nearly) every game, with (nearly) any list you should care to make. But, a choice like that isn't 'OP' by any means. Just really useful to have.
    Situational: Not necessarily bad. But, a choice like this probably wont win you the game unless you have specifically set up your list around it, or you have the right opponent, or the Mission being played caters towards this choice. Don't take one of these choices unless you have to.
    Bad: Stay away. You should pick anything other than this choice.


    Red Scorpions:
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    All your Tactical Squads gain FNP for free, which is pretty cool. But, you can never Go To Ground on purpose and you can't equip any of your Scouts with Camo Cloaks. Basically, there's no real downside. Your main source of Scoring is now harder to kill. Awesome.

    Lord High Commander Carab Culln: Everyone on the board is now Ld10 - which means you save points on Vet. Sergeants, and, coupled with RS' ability to re-roll Pinning checks anyway, nothing you own should ever be pinned. He has a cool weapon which has the potential to be AP2 and he comes with Eternal Warrior. Unfortunately, he's pretty much unusable as he can't take Look Out, Sir! rolls. Hit him with a Barrage weapon and he's basically dead.

    Magister Sevrin Loth: Similar to Tigurius/Calgar, the Red Scorpions also have a not-so-great Chapter Master but a kick-ass Librarian. Loth brings Fearless and Counter-Attack. But, he picks his Psychic Powers. You are guaranteed Endurance, Enfeeble and Iron Arm. Battle Brothers with a Farsight Bomb? You're guaranteed Gate of Infinity. Sweet! If you field his Honour Guard with him (why not) you can pick up Endurance or Telekine Dome. If you are going to play Red Scorpions, you definitely should take the Magister.


    Carcharadons:
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    Every unit in your army has Fear, which barely matters. And Black Templars have Crusader Squads which don't need to pay the +1 Point for a combat weapon. Then, you're shafted into Desperate Allies with everyone to make your army even less viable. Just paint up your Marines as Carcharadons and use the Black Templars rules - you get Land Raiders as Dedicated Transports!

    Tyberos the Red Wake: He's not great. But he isn't exactly terrible, either. He costs slightly too much, and you will need to pay an extra 280+ Points to grab his Terminator unit. But, you know what's really dumb, if you put him in a unit of Lightning Claw Terminators, his Warlord Trait becomes semi-redundant because of Shred.


    Chaplain Dreadnought Titus: He's a Scoring Dreadnought for 200 Points. Walkers aren't even that good. Paint up your Howling Griffons, use Ultramarines rules like you're supposed to and use Tigurius.

    Malakim Phoros: Ergh.

    Captain Tarnus Vale: Vehicles he rides in gain BS5 and Tank Hunters. This is only useful for a Land Raider. Land Raiders also get a 5++ vs. Glancing Hits. He also carries the best Warlord Trait in Codex Marines. He's not great, by any means, and he's about 15 Points too expensive. But, if you build around him, he'll work fine. Land Raiders, ho! You only lose out on the ability to bring Tigurius, or Chronus - who does basically the same thing.

    Lieutenant Commander Anton Navaez: One of those 'Fluffy' Characters that doesn't actually do a whole lot. He comes with Scout, which directly contradicts his other ability to Deep Strike. He has a Master-Crafted Plasmagun for some reason and has a Storm Shield that doesn't work properly. Then, you get D3 units that are allowed to Deep Strike. However, you're not allowed to pick up Dedicated Transports. Which means if you gear up three units for this rule, and roll a '1' or '2', the other unit is just shafted, because the kit you give a Deep Striking unit is rarely the same kit for a unit you have on foot. Just, no.

    Raptors:
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    Raven Guard Chapter Tactics are not the best. Scout is fine. But, exactly half the time you have Stealth on the first turn anyway due to Night Fighting. Then, if you don't move in your movement phase, your Boltguns all change from Rapid Fire to Heavy 1, Rending. It's kind of cool. But it's not better than a lot of other Chapter Tactics around.

    Lias Issodon: He brought Artificer Armour, which was smart. But he also gives his squad Shrouded, which is even better. Then he screws up your opponents' Reserves - which may or may not be a good thing, depending if you go firs. But, his HUGE bonus is his ability to throw out a minimum of four Wounds onto anything. You should be aiming at MCs to target all the Wounds onto one model. But, if you can't do that, smaller units with low Armour Saves (i.e; Daemons) should be your ideal target. You can grab First Blood before the game even starts. The one downside is that it has to be on the board. So, if your opponent holds the thing you want to target in Reserve, tough. His Warlord Trait doesn't look good. But, remember that you're Raptors. All your non-Bulky units have Scout, and therefore Outflank.


    Exorcists
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    Do whatever you want. That's their Chapter Tactic. Yeah, I don't suppose that does count as being awesome, does it?

    Captain Silas Alberec: He's S10, and wounds Psykers and Daemons on a 2+. Which he would anyway. Because he's S10. Then he has a bunch of rules to help with Deny the Witch, which don't particularly matter because who uses Witchfire Powers aside from Ahriman?


    Mantis Warriors
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    All your models gain Move Through Cover, which is nice. And Hammer of Wrath is kind of cool, especially when combined with the Furious Charge when your enemy gets too close. And you can re-roll Seize the Initiative. And your Librarians can pick up Divination!

    Ahazra Redth: Forge Would loves the Librarians, eh? Any unit he is a part of gains Night Vision and Interceptor. Holy Flakk Missiles, Batman! That's kind of awesome! He has an Invulnerable which Psykers don't have, and he can re-roll his first failed Psychic Test. Just in case. His only downside, is that - unlike Loth - his signature power actually does take up one of his Power slots (if that really bothers you, you can always just pick up a regular Librarian - or two - that has access to Divination anyway). Still, his signature power isn't even bad. Enemies make Disordered Charges and his unit gains Shrouded. If Allies are available to you, be aware that you can have Loth and Redth in the same army.


    Executioners
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    In a Challenge, Characters who roll 6s To Wound cause Instant Death. That's pretty cool. But is it better than Black Templars' re-rolls To Hit in a Challenge, and then Rending? Executioners are better against multi-Wound models, and Templars are better against single wound models. But, Executioners don't get Crusader Squads. ...So, yeah. The weird version of Stubborn is alright though.

    High Chaplain Thulsa Kane: He has a S6, AP2 weapon that's unwieldy, but that's okay. Because he's got Eternal Warrior to tank a few hits. Unfortunately, Kane - and the Executioners - are reliant on getting the Charge for the re-rolls on 1s To Wound - which magnifies their 6s to ID. Kane is 190 Points, too, and he really, really, really doesn't need to cost that much. I'll also note that Thulsa Kane is not 'amazing' as the colour-coding would indicate. But, the other equation of the colour-coding that you 'must' take him. Which you should because he does wonders for the not-so-great Executioners on the said Charge. So, he's not good, but you're taking him anyway...That makes him a 190 Point tax.


    The Angels Revenant: You can have Preferred Enemy and Hatred (Necrons), or, if you're not playing against Necrons, you start getting Fearless when you start losing badly. It's an interesting concept, but, largely you'll just want to use Ultramarines rules.

    The Red Hunters: Once per game, a number of your units equal to the game turn gain a USR from a select list. Part of what makes this so good is that you choose when it happens, and you choose which units get it. There is no randomness. It's all tactics. The second thing that makes Red Hunters great is Grey Knights are Battle Brothers if you bring an Inquisitor. Check with your TO if Coteaz counts - because he should.

    Star Phantoms
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    You can re-roll some of your Reserves, and you get one use of a slightly better version of Ultramarines' Tactical Doctrine, that you can only use once. Why? Ultramarines have Tactical Doctrine anyway, they have the other two Doctrines and can pick up Tigurius for even more re-rolls. Why would you give that up? So you can Twin-Link everything for one turn? Is that it? You'd better hope that your one turn goes well.

    Captain Zhrukal Androcles: You get extra Devastators. WOO!!! Are you Imperial Fists that get Tank Hunters? No? Okay then. Pass.


    Minotaurs
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    Never have to take Panic attacks from Shooting casualties. This alone would make Minotaurs worth playing. Crusader and an extra inch of Charge move can make or break some games, but, still, if your opponent wants your stuff to run off the board, he has to get you into Assault.

    Lord Asterion Moloc: He's got Eternal Warrior, he's got an at-I AP2 weapon. What do you mean you want more than that? Okay, his unit ignores Initiative when Charging through terrain, which means you don't need Grenades (i.e; Terminators with Lightning Claws) and you get Preferred Enemy against Marines, which is kind of cool if you're in that style of meta. Yeah, he counts everyone that he has Preferred Enemy against as Desperate Allies, but that doesn't even matter, because you can still Ally with Eldar and/or Tau for Battle Brothers. ...I only report on the rules, I don't make 'em.

    Chaplain Ivanus Enkomi: For 10 Points, you can trade his Power Maul in for a Concussive Power Sword. You should do that. Because the Arkanos is a Specialist Weapon and that means that it can pair with his Power Fist for +1 Attack. You only lose your ranged attack, which isn't that good anyway.


    Vaylund Cal: He's T6, he's got IWND with 2+/4++, and he brings Fearless and punches at S10 - sure, he lacks hard attacks on his profile, but remember to add his Servo-Harness. Since Iron Hands don't have special characters anyway, you lose nothing by going 'Sons of Medusa' instead of 'Iron Hands'. However, you do lose the ability to play around with Clan Raukaan. You can upgrade your Devastators to T5 if you really want to. But, it does cost points, and it's not going to be real useful outside of one Mission - Big Guns Never Tire. But, upgrading your Devastators is totally optional. What stops him from being amazing, his a) No Bike, b) Points Cost, and c) useless Warlord Trait.
    Still, isn't bright green and white a way better paint scheme than black and metal? ...Yes.

    Captain Mordaci Blaylock: The only reason to run this guy is if you want to field 1200+ Points worth of Terminators. And do you really want to pass up Tigurius for that? You might.

    Fire Hawks
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    Models entering play using Deep Strike gain +1 Strength on their Template weapons. Given the current meta's propensity of horde-style units, this is really good. Especially because the rule specifically allows for models exiting a Drop Pod, which means Sternguard are firing their Heavy Flamers at S6, which is causing ID on those T3 models. That's awesome. Unfortunately, taking Sternguard contradicts that fact that your Vanguard are now Scoring, which means you want to take those in your Elite slots instead. Still though, it's worth picking up five Sternguard with the dual Heavy Flamers just because on the games that it is, it's brutal.
    Hand Flamers kind of suck. Especially because Assault Squads don't get to pick from the Ranged Weapons list, and actually pick from their own wargear list. Ditto for Vanguard. But, Hand Flamers are good Pistol weapons for units that you want in combat, like Assault Squads and Vanguard...Oh, wait.

    Knight-Captain Elam Courbray: Ld9 Warlord. That's 185 Points.
    He has Smash, except forgot to include any sentence that gives him AP2 - like Carab Culln. He has Hit & Run and Counter-Attack which actually are useful, and that's about it. Notably, he also has I6. He also has a funky S5 Barrage attack when he Deep Strikes that wont do a whole lot because it always does a full Scatter - unlike Swooping Hawks, who also have an AP value which also Ignores Cover.


    Astral Claws
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    All your Bikes gain Skilled Rider. Who needs White Scars? Everyone knows that Codex: Inquisition made Scout armies unplayable, anyway. And Kor'Sarro isn't even that good. Just take the better Astral Claws characters. Also, Astral Claws Land Speeders have Scout, too. Just in case you wanted to get into Melta range early, or go for an Outflank for Rear/Side Armour. Decent.

    Lugft Huron: Everyone on the board is Ld10, saving points on Vet. Sergeants, and you have two uses of your S10, AP2 Barrage weapon. Yes, it still full Scatters, but, at least you can still roll 'Hit's (unlike say, Guard). And, you can use it twice for another go. Unfortunately, Huron still gets the old rules for his Orbital, where he can't move and shoot, even if he is in Relentless Terminator Armour. And he has Shredding AP2 weapons that force re-rolls of successful Invulnerables. Yes! You can actually make that unit full of 2++ saves actually take damage!

    Captain Corien Sumatris: He has Furious Charge and Rage, and gives all your cool stuff +1WS. Good for Assault. And Assault isn't even that good.

    Armenneus Valthex: And Counter-Attack and an Invulnerable, which other Techmarines just can't have. One unit in the army gains Poisoned (2+) on their Bolt weapons - which includes Storm Bolters! - which is plenty useful for a few different units. And, he makes Dreadnoughts count as Denial units - which is hilarious when that gets shoved in someone's face. All for 145 Points, he's far from 'situational' since you can include him in any army. But he's not 'good' either.

    Arch-Centurion Carnac Commodus: He kind of sucks. And is only useful in a Tyrant's Legion list where he is basically mandatory because all other choices aside from Huron himself are terrible.


    Salamanders
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    Captain Pellas Mir'San: For 150 Points, he's a bargain. At-Initiative AP2, and Artificer Armour. You'll find a use for him.

    Bray'arth Ashmantle: He's immune to all the things that make Walkers hide under the sheets at night. He's got AV13. He's got and he has IWND and Extra Armour for fun. The one thing holding him back is his inability to take a Drop Pod as a Dedicated Transport. If you want Ashmantle to be amazing, pick up a Lucius Drop Pod.

    Master Harath Shen: With Leadership 9, he should never be your Warlord. Because that would be awful. But, he does have Artificer Armour and FNP, has a 96% chance to pass LO,S! rolls and counts as a Banner, sort of, because it only applies to his unit. So, if you're Salamanders, and thinking of building an Assault unit, think about putting Shen in. ...Just make sure a Ld9 Character doesn't end up being your Warlord.
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2014-01-17 at 05:06 AM.
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  21. - Top - End - #891
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIX: "Understand the gravity of the situation."

    Thanks a bunch CheeseGear, great breakdown as usual :)

  22. - Top - End - #892
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIX: "Understand the gravity of the situation."

    Pedro Kantor being an Imperial Fist

    WHAAAAAAAAAAT?

    (I probably misunderstand this, I'm out of this game since 5th).

  23. - Top - End - #893
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIX: "Understand the gravity of the situation."

    Pedro Kantor is a Crimson Fist, so he uses his chapter's founder's tactics rule.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIX: "Understand the gravity of the situation."

    Thank you for your post Cheesegear. I respect what you have to say regarding the FW chapters, but I must disagree with you on a few points.

    STAR PHANTOMS

    No way these guys are red. In my opinion, they are black at worst. Their one turn use is MUCH better than the Tactical Doctrine. They are built for a drop pod army. The alpha strike is what counts, and having true twin linked for everyone really counts. This is especially true for flamers,which receive no benefit from the tactical doctrine but are twin linked for Star Phantoms during their one-use effect. Getting maximum effect from the drop pod alpha strike is critical, and the Star Phantoms tactic is a great help.

    KNIGHT-CAPTAIN ELAM COURBAY

    Again, an entry that should not be red. To me, Courbay's strength is not in the crappy firefall attack, but in the radius around said attack that you can DS on target! There's very good odds that where you want to be will be within 6 inches of that target. If not, theres a huge radius you can be in! Additionally, he now unlocks a Jump Command Squad, meaning he can now deep strike with a unit with decent shooting. I would rate him as an Orange, if only for the crappy version of Smash.

    Just my two cents.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIX: "Understand the gravity of the situation."

    Quote Originally Posted by Bavarian itP View Post
    WHAAAAAAAAAAT?
    Pedro Kantor has Chapter Tactics (Imperial Fists), but, he and his Detachment do not actually count as Imperial Fists, and so therefore can not have Lysander in the same Detachment, even though they have the same Chapter Tactics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Caxton View Post
    I must disagree with you on a few points.
    Sounds good to me.

    No way [Star Phantoms] are red. In my opinion, they are black at worst. Their one turn use is MUCH better than the Tactical Doctrine. They are built for a drop pod army.
    So, orange? But here's the thing, Star Phantoms have exactly one turn to do things on. After that one turn (probably the first or second), then you're no longer Star Phantoms, and you're Generic Space Marines that don't have Chapter Tactics. Star Phantoms have diminishing returns the longer the game goes on (especially if you don't have all the models that are sitting in your Drop Pods on the board). Compared to say, Salamanders in Drop Pods, whose Meltaguns and Flamers will be Twin-Linked forever.

    Also, remember that Vehicles aren't affected by Chapter Tactics.

    Again, an entry that should not be red. To me, Courbay's strength is not in the crappy firefall attack, but in the radius around said attack that you can DS on target! There's very good odds that where you want to be will be within 6 inches of that target.
    Yes and no. For all intents and purposes, the Blast marker that you place is the Scatter. Since the Scatter is also unmodified by BS, that Marker can go flying. The only difference is, as a unit, the unit can reduce (or increase) its own Scatter by 6". The other issue - which is insurmountable - is that he is Ld9.

    Second, anybody can Deep Strike with a Command Squad. It's called a Drop Pod, and it costs the same as equipping the Command Squad with Jump Packs. The difference is that the Drop Pod can come down on the first turn.
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2014-01-17 at 03:31 AM.
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  26. - Top - End - #896
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    BardGuy

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIX: "Understand the gravity of the situation."

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post



    So, orange? But here's the thing, Star Phantoms have exactly one turn to do things on. After that one turn (probably the first or second), then you're no longer Star Phantoms, and you're Generic Space Marines that don't have Chapter Tactics. Star Phantoms have diminishing returns the longer the game goes on (especially if you don't have all the models that are sitting in your Drop Pods on the board). Compared to say, Salamanders in Drop Pods, whose Meltaguns and Flamers will be Twin-Linked forever.

    Also, remember that Vehicles aren't affected by Chapter Tactics.


    So they only have their ability for one turn. They only have tactics for one turn. That makes them bad? By that logic, Ultramarines are bad because they don't have chapter tactics for about half the game! I'm not saying Star Phantoms are better than Manders, who are the best podders now, but I do think that Star Phantoms are a legitimate choice.

    I'll set aside the point on Courbay though. I may have been overexcited about him getting access to a Jump Command Squad (which he may have but RAVEN GUARD couldn't dream of...).
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIX: "Understand the gravity of the situation."

    Quote Originally Posted by Caxton View Post
    So they only have their ability for one turn. They only have tactics for one turn. That makes them bad? [...] but I do think that Star Phantoms are a legitimate choice.
    The thing is, okay, let's imagine you've got a Drop Pod army. Let's imagine you've got 5 Drop Pods - two empties. Do you do your 'one turn' on the first turn? Where your opponent may have stuff of his own in Reserve? Do you wait 'til later when more of your stuff comes onto the board (maybe the Drop Pods aren't empty), what if, by that time, your opponent has killed a lot of your stuff. It's conceivable. By the time you get around to doing your 'one turn', your time to shine may have already elapsed.

    What if, during your 'one turn', the dice just roll poorly? That's it. You're done. Do you have special characters like Tigurius or Telion to fall back on? No. You don't.

    I'll bump Star Phantoms up to Orange. But no further. Drop Pod armies can be done better by other Chapters, and more consistently.
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  28. - Top - End - #898
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIX: "Understand the gravity of the situation."

    Quote Originally Posted by Caxton View Post
    I'll set aside the point on Courbay though. I may have been overexcited about him getting access to a Jump Command Squad (which he may have but RAVEN GUARD couldn't dream of...).
    The same Raven Guard that can't even use their tactics on jump pack models?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Genestealers and Shrikes didn't have 4+ Saves in the previous edition. Grenades practically didn't exist. What made people think that this edition would be different? Tyranids didn't have Skyfire or Interceptor in the last edition either.
    Eldar couldn't both shoot and run. Tau didn't have overwatch, much less double supporting overwatch. Psycannons weren't S7 4 shots rending. Sternguard used to be crappy option-less "veterans". Necrons got a total remake of almost all unit profiles. So on, so on.

    Is 'Take a Leadership Test, don't fail. Oops. Now don't roll a 1.' actually that bad? Sure. It's a crap mechanic that rolls dice to roll more dice, but does it actually matter? Not on the scale of 'Oops I rolled the wrong number now half my army takes damage' Warp Storms. This is why Fateweaver is mandatory. He stops the **** from happening.
    Warp storms don't cause half of your units to fall back 4d6 and the other half to autolose half wounds. But that's not the problem, really. The problem is twofold: one, in 4th and 5th editions falling out of synapse, while negative, was manageable. Now not only negative effects are far worse, they're random. So, you can't calmly decide to eat known small penalty.

    Two, your synapse coverage is much worse now. You take flyrants as they are only actually good HQ? You rush them forward? Oops, hope you didn't miss that coverage so much. Tervigons? Huge nerf. Zoanthropes? Hope you don't mind footsloggind delicate, short ranged MEQ models. Tyranids are now lucky if their list includes more than 3-4 synapse models, and that is something railguns, battle cannons and missiles can wipe out of the board very quickly.

    Tyranid players are upset because their annoying mechanic, unlike all other armies, was actually made worse from multiple directions, while all other armies had theirs removed or softened.

    Synapse sucks because your opponent just shoots the Synapse models and your army folds like paper. So? That has always been Tyranids' weakness. Always. 'Shoot the Big Ones' even actually used to be a rule that existed. What made people think that 6th Edition also wouldn't have that weakness?
    Counterpoint - even ignoring Phase Out being no longer a rule, you could have said same thing about Tau. "Your opponent just shoots the Space Pope model and your army folds like paper". That has always been Tau weakness, and look what happened to Ethereals now.
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  29. - Top - End - #899
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIX: "Understand the gravity of the situation."

    Quote Originally Posted by Trixie View Post
    Counterpoint - even ignoring Phase Out being no longer a rule, you could have said same thing about Tau. "Your opponent just shoots the Space Pope model and your army folds like paper". That has always been Tau weakness, and look what happened to Ethereals now.
    Did anyone really take the Space Pope back then? Space Pope seemed like an entirely optional thing to take, while with Tyranids...can you actually have a Tyranid army without synapse creatures?

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIX: "Understand the gravity of the situation."

    Quote Originally Posted by 13_CBS View Post
    ...can you actually have a Tyranid army without synapse creatures?
    .....Kind of.

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    So it can be done.... But you probably shouldn't. Your only source of anti-Tank is a single over-expensive Carnifex, and you have no Skyfire or Interceptor (Genestealers are BS0, so no Quad Gun for you!) so pretty much everything else wil take you apart.

    Having said that, you have Rending out the wazoo and about 70 models with 3 attacks each and who can Infiltrate - you're actually kind of okay with taking down MCs who lurk at the back of the table. Things of Nurgle, Wraithlord, Wraithknight, even Riptides will not particularly want to see that coming.... Not to mention, with great irony, other 'Nid players!
    Last edited by Wraith; 2014-01-17 at 07:57 AM.
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